PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[unknown522]

I will **** you all at badminton not even joking

it's time.

Also play KK in badminton too

 

[Dr Peepee]

I watched the first game of set 2 on yoshis and saw a good example of what you were talking about here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoob08ssmvs&t=3m29s

Obvious solution is azendashing.

Secondary solution is ledgestalling. When he does that double jump, you can be pretty confident he wont throw an aerial out...so right when hes about to DJ (and you know when that will be) just jump and waveland on? or maybe firebird stall, which might actually be better than firefox stalling since the flames wont be there to hit him and help him recover.

What is azendashing?

If I wait for his DJ then get onstage then he will just grab the edge when I get up.

these MUs are unwinnable unless the falco plays bad, i don't want to try them anymore, and if i had a group of 200000 people helping me with how to handle exact situations, id probably be a lot better too

Hope you feel better soon man.

PP there were a lot of times in your set where you could have rolled and edgehogged m2k but you dj'd onto the stage and he just grabbed the ledge for free

Specifically this happened 2 or 3 times in a row on the left side of dreamland

But I saw m2k getting away with that on other players too

Can you give me an example in video form of when this happened?

gosh people are really underestimating sheik's recovery abilities.

he got on when he could have rolled because whether you get on or roll there is always a 50/50 at worst for sheik on edgeguarding if she recovers correctly.

as for PP's problem...

honestly I think you're whining too much pp, you basically said, i want to have invuln before he gets near the stage and gimp him at low percent rather than try to wavedash to the ledge later so i have invuln at the right time and risk getting hit and having invuln at the right time to punish him. btw, i had this same conversation with fiz in NC when he complained about me going low with marth.

you basically just want a perfectly safe edgeguard on him when you have time to get the ledge with early invuln. (btw, this isn't just a problem vs sheik..other characters can do this to falco too..even marth)

however, since what you want is not an option that works but an option that is broken and covers everything with no risk, then what you're looking for is taking the ledge early and invuln firefox stall, so i guess your only hope is if someone can post proving that it's possible with falco since they already showed it's possible with fox.

i'm glad most foxes i play don't have the balls to do that 100% consistently every time when i'm marth. though i could still go high during their refresh, as can sheik, but that would mean always taking damage when coming back..

the sad thing is fox/falco with those invuln refreshes probably can have this perfect no risk world that pp wants...however, don't whine when you mess it up in tourney and lose a set.

I'm....whining? I just want to know how to improve my edgeguarding because I think it's pretty sub-par atm. If you think it can't be improved or I should just go figure it out myself or something then just say so lol, but I thought there wouldn't be any harm in asking the boards since I was curious. <.<

I suppose I want to know when to grab the edge or how to use my invincibility best to edgeguard Sheik. This is especially when I know he will wait a long time to DJ and then wait again to Up-B but I'll risk getting hit and dying. I wanted good options for THAT scenario specifically. Again, I'm not sure where this is whiny but I'm sorry you see it that way.

So you're suggesting I master the up-B regrab? Okay, thank you for your post. I will just have to go work on that on Brinstar then(to make sure I can do it through lava). =)

Been posting this in every thread I visit

WTF

is that even useful or just...

WTF

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pbvAksdV4E&t=1m45s

blue = invincible, yellow = vulnerable

<_<

Oh, neat! Thanks dude! =)

I'm re-watching your GFs set fvs M2K, Peepee, and it seems like the things I'm finding which confused me then, make sense to me now/aren't glaring enough to warrant bringing them up.

This situation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=8iTKxosywts#t=138s came up a couple times, where I feel like if you were to call it (he recovered low like this most of the time) you could risk a brave dair, but for the most part, it seems fine.

The only thing I could say is that when edgeguarding Sheik, just opt for hitting her back off everytime. So, bair > shine, dair > everything else if you can hit it in a way that sends them offstage (dair pretty much invalidates DI, I think, you just have to use it right), and even bthrow. I guess I felt like your edge guards took too long. Every second she lives is another second that Falco can die (apparently he's kind of fragile. Who knew?)

Sorry I couldn't be of more help, besides telling you to make decisions that will kill her quicker, lol. :\

You just mean delayed Dair at the edge in that situation? I'm not sure if that works but I'll test it, thanks. =)


Yeah I'd rather hit Sheik back off as well, but I was also thinking if I was hanging on to the edge to drop backward and shine Sheik out of her jump(if I could reach) and then Bair her(out of shine or maybe jump on stage and Dair/Bair).

Not sure what anyone thinks about that idea and I haven't gotten to look at it yet but I'd like to.



Thanks to everyone who is willing to give me advice btw. I really do appreciate it. =)

 

[stingers]

No he wont, you know when he DJs that he will wait to up B so he can try and hit you with the fire. So whenever he starts to drop from the DJ you can ledgehop -> waveland and get back before he will be able to grab it.

And azendashing is when you **** up your waveland and die.

 

[SSBMLahti]

Mango vs M2K Genesis 2.

 

[Dr Peepee]

No he wont, you know when he DJs that he will wait to up B so he can try and hit you with the fire. So whenever he starts to drop from the DJ you can ledgehop -> waveland and get back before he will be able to grab it.

And azendashing is when you **** up your waveland and die.

ledgehop waveland regrab the edge?

 

[stingers]

yeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

 

[ShroudedOne]

Yeah, delayed dair, or maybe run off > DJ dair? That's really ballsy though, so perhaps just delayed dair.

About the second one, I wouldn't even add the shine. Just bair her if you can reach her. I don't like shining in any edge guard situation as Falco, because I feel like it just gives them more time to live.

 

[Dr Peepee]

yeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

LOL I was messing with that for a while, so yeah this would be a great time to use it. Good call. =)

Yeah, delayed dair, or maybe run off > DJ dair? That's really ballsy though, so perhaps just delayed dair.

About the second one, I wouldn't even add the shine. Just bair her if you can reach her. I don't like shining in any edge guard situation as Falco, because I feel like it just gives them more time to live.

Shining is awesome for edgeguards. If they DI in they can get stage spiked or bair'd/Dair'd(out of the shine or not it depends), if they DI out then they just made their recovery harder anyway lol.

Just play with it you'll see. =p

 

[whitemountain123]

are there any decent ways to practice oos moves/timings by yourself?

I feel like my oos game is very weak and part of it is because I get tripped up on the timings so any suggestions are welcome

 

[knightpraetor]

yeah sorry to call it whining cause obviously your intent is not to sound whiny; i'm just letting you know that what you're looking for is something so strong and most characters don't have that strong of a coverage of sheik's recovery so it sounds whiny to want something that good. and if the refresh is safe and you can get consistent that is what you are looking for

also it sound like you already know but shine is better than rising bair in a lot of situations. you want to avoid getting countergimped so it's best to use as fast a move as possible. that said there can be benefits if you're going for stuff like that dair you used last stock on m2k

 

[ShroudedOne]

Eh...I guess. I don't see it in my head, but...I'll play with it and see what happens.

 

[knightpraetor]

it only matters if you're going low enough without invuln of course.. from the ledge invuln bair is fine. invuln bair doesn't catch sheik coming up from low though

 

[Deleted member]

wow smashboards. wow.

 

[Deleted member]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vv6IurJFuVM

0:27 need to defend m2k first, pin trapped teammate 2nd
0:33 blind dair, just don't do this really lol
0:50 blind dair, should establish position with teammate at the edge rather than put yourself into a 2 vs 1 scenario, which it is even if you hit because you're between them.
1:40 poor recovery, this is one of those times where you're screwed, so you go for the blind dair that i just told you not to do so you can make throw off the edge guard. edge guarding in teams is sometimes complicated because of both players, and just screwing up one of them (jman) might give you...something.
1:54 the DI was probably correct but...don't jump into the fox lol
2:46 missed a free kill. even w/ no edge hog, a suicide dair would have been good. remember that right after fox starts moving, his up B trades with the spike, which you can DI off of and recover from. you should actively learn this skill, free kills on the most played teams character are cool.

overall: lots of unnecessary dash dancing. when the game splits into 2 1 vs 1s, you get a lot of good punishment, but i didn't see this situation get set up. this may be in part because both opponents are very defensive players and less likely to let themselves get trapped. you also got caught off guard multiple times at the 2 vs 1. any of them could have been upsmash and suddenly the match is legit again. absolutely stay focused, even if you think your teammate has it.

3:38-4:44 you spend SO much time out of combat. your main strength as a player and the reason to play falco is to use your punishment game. You absolutely no not want to make petty trades like you did this stock. if you were fox, it might open up some good upsmashes or shinespikes, but as falco it offers you nothing. waiting is okay sometimes, but just sitting back and firing lasers here is extensive and harmful.
4:50 ****ing awesome teammate save. even if you didn't hit jman w/ a laser to **** him up, hitting your teammate was great. and then once jman loses position, you screw up m2k so he can't edge guard either. excellent decision-making overall.
5:42 the nair was probably a bad choice. ok it was a bad choice. your performance of said nair looked really sloppy and i'm guessing you didn't want to do it.
5:52 the second time you jumped up from below the edge into a kill move. just watch out for this small stuff.


overall: it looks like a lot of the mistakes are small ones that are actually 1 on 1 type of stuff and not teams specific. m2k also did ****ing fantastic, so maybe once a player starts doing that well against you, you should find some way to make that player less effective? your team actually had a lead until yay got gimped by backthrow > shine, and it looks like your team never really regained control after that point. really big loss of momentum. i also never really saw you go off on either player in terms of a big punish.

9:21 beautiful edge hog. >_>
9:35 really good setup on jman, followed by excellent walling on m2k the bair on both foxes actually sets up a good edge guard on jman, while letting you fight m2k alone (which is good for you).
10:18 trying to save your teammate is probably the right move, but you didn't adequately deal with fox first and it comes back to bite you again, similar to 0:50 where you need to deal with the first problem before addressing the second. fox dying was like...maybe maybe not but it cost you your stock as well.
11:30-11:56 you had no stage control, and never got it. having no control in teams is an excellent way to know that you're losing. no surprises really.

overall: i think the team work was lacking. for the first 2 games, you and yay played off of each other pretty well, and you didn't really have to carry the team. in this game, he actively screwed you up. i think you need to shoot less and to use quick movements, dair/bair, and tricky placement to secure the area around you. by skipping this step, you spend a lot of time teching or trying to gain footing.

game 4 it just looks like jman wrecks and yay plays bad. you got the good damage punishes like you're going for. i didn't see much worth talking about.

you definitely have some holes to work on. like singles, almost all of it i think is in your neutral game. you should be dashdancing and shooting less and establishing stage control with falco feet to regulate the flow of the match. i also think you should team with a character that doesn't die immediately as soon as you can't carry the team, like peach/jigglypuff. I would say sheik but you still do some team attacks and sheik's recovery is very exploitable on poor trades like the bair @ 9:35 and could get her killed. once you work those out of your play, sheik is an acceptable choice too.

defeating your opponent through character choice is COMPLETELY legitimate and the tournament will honor say your falco destroying some poor Ness player the same way it would punish you and your teammate both picking frail characters. if your opponent is punishing your character choice, poor counterpicks, or even situational luck, you need to consider it as something you can work on and fix.

most of your mistakes are marginal ones. by that i mean, you lose advantage in small increments here and there. you're never the cause for a large momentum shift, which is good and bad at the same time. if you're losing to infrequent big decisions, you can simply stop doing them and see much improvement. with small marginal difficulties, they're frustrating to work out of your play and it's hard to tell if you're doing better at all.

There's a philosophy I'd like to introduce you to referred loosely as "kaizen". It is effectively changing many small things to lead to some bigger result later. For example, you don't jump into jman's shine or sheik's dsmash in that video, and perhaps you could have gotten 30% more. or maybe an extra kill. maybe nothing at all, but stalled for time which lead to some other favorable consequence. in the ultimate finality of playing to win, you must take every margin possible, and it could make you 30% or 1 kill better, or maybe have no effect but it's still strictly beneficial. let me repeat that:

It's a strict tactical advantage.

This is part of why mew2king is a paragon in teams and a master of efficiency. Even if you have no idea what you can possibly do to improve your teams game, you can always simply copy his strategic decision-making and apply it to your character in the same way you can steal a tactic like the marth killer and it will probably make you better at teams.

i'm sure you'll want to go over this in detail in the near future, but you should have the idea. it's pretty much neutral game stuff and establishing control. you had the same problem in singles for the same event and actually for somewhat similar reasons (bad DD use, blind aerials). text me, leave something, whatever.

 

[Beat!]

Badminton, eh? I'd wreck all of you!

 

[Brookman]

PP, too legit

 

[JPOBS]

he got on when he could have rolled because whether you get on or roll there is always a 50/50 at worst for sheik on edgeguarding if she recovers correctly.

LOL no.

If she has to Up B, you should be able to edgehog her, or force her onstage and hit back off rinse-repeat 100%. The only exception if you get fooled.

There is no way sheik can "recover correctly" which makes it 50/50 in any way shape or form. She only survives if you mess up.

 

[Bing]

LOL no.

If she has to Up B, you should be able to edgehog her, or force her onstage and hit back off rinse-repeat 100%. The only exception if you get fooled.

There is no way sheik can "recover correctly" which makes it 50/50 in any way shape or form. She only survives if you mess up.

Agreed. When Sheik's off-stage, you can literally just hold the ledge, and when she goes on-stage, generally depending on character choice, you will have enough time to oh lets just say Ledge hop Bair(For spacies). The only time this becomes a bit more difficult is if she gets to a platform then it becomes a little trickier. Regardless, theres no way in hell that its a 50/50.

 

[Bones0]

It's definitely NOT that simple. You have to manage your invinc to account for needles, aerials, DJ aerials, any weird delay applied to all of those, and sweetspots where they DJ and/or up-B to the ledge super quickly. If you can theoretically edgeguard Sheik every time, it's very risky and unforgiveably difficult in terms of reacting to what options they have any any given moment. Then you still have the fact that even if you force them to up-B on stage, you still have to punish, and at lower %s you aren't going to just be able to LH bair them back off and repeat. They will DI too high, and the second go-around they will have a lot more options that you CANNOT cover 100%.

 

[Bing]

This is true, I suppose managing your invinsibility is difficult, mind you, not THAT difficult. I mean you technically dont have to be on the ledge until they get into the up-b, so dealing with needles and aerials also isnt a gigantic issue. Also spacies have the ability to drop and regrab the ledge quickly to regain invisibility frames.

Now I didnt say its like counting to 3, but Sheik's recovery options are certainly limited especially once you grab the ledge. LH bair was just an example of how you could punish. You can also simply get up and grab, Maybe even Up-Smash. No you cannot ledge guard Sheik 100% of the time, you can get tricked, but you're making it sound more difficult then it actually is... mind you Im also making it sound easier then it actually is.

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

When Fox/Falco are side Bing is there an optimal way to cover both the full length and shortened versions of it?

 

[Bones0]

This is true, I suppose managing your invinsibility is difficult, mind you, not THAT difficult. I mean you technically dont have to be on the ledge until they get into the up-b, so dealing with needles and aerials also isnt a gigantic issue. Also spacies have the ability to drop and regrab the ledge quickly to regain invisibility frames.

Now I didnt say its like counting to 3, but Sheik's recovery options are certainly limited especially once you grab the ledge. LH bair was just an example of how you could punish. You can also simply get up and grab, Maybe even Up-Smash. No you cannot ledge guard Sheik 100% of the time, you can get tricked, but you're making it sound more difficult then it actually is... mind you Im also making it sound easier then it actually is.

That's only true if they aren't close enough to DJ/quick up-B onto the ledge. Obviously once they are far enough off stage that they can no longer threaten you with DJ aerials or the blast of the up-B **** gets a lot more simple. I think that's more rare than most people think, especially when you have someone like M2K DIing your bairs.

How are you punishing with LH bair? The only way to punish with it is if they make a mistake first. Dropping down to bair, even if you do it with as much invinc as possible, completely leaves you open to them up-Bing quickly and going to the ledge or aerialing you before you're able to get your DJ and bair started.

When Fox/Falco are side Bing is there an optimal way to cover both the full length and shortened versions of it?

If you cover the shorten, you cover the full-distance one as well.

 

[Bing]

When I said LH bair I ment when they up-b onto the stage then you hop on and bair.. thats a pretty obvious punish. Mind you, there is better.

 

[Bones0]

Oh yeah, I see that now. Just a little confusing because it came right after a comment about grabbing the ledge.

 

[Bing]

Oh okay, Yeah, so basically its defs not what KP said, but were both putting it to polar extremes.

 

[Jake13]

OK PP

I looked back at the match that i was referring to (first match, first set)

looks like you didn't double jump back to the ledge, you just rolled too early

time stamps: 2:41 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=8iTKxosywts#t=160s)
and
3:34 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=8iTKxosywts#t=214s)


it is my belief that sheik cannot grab the ledge or hit you with her upB if you use the roll correctly from the ledge. Plz correct me if i'm wrong


as far as this land dash back to the ledge with falco discussion, it *****:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=STxO-9VUMnI#t=364s
maybe not v sheik but it's super useful as an upB bait

 

[Dr Peepee]

He did the same thing both times, which is waiting until the last second to pull back with the up-B there. I can't just roll up and be okay vs that.

I'll have to watch and see what he does then roll, but I don't know if I can get away with that without guessing.

This is probably why I need the up-B stalling lol.

 

[knightpraetor]

yeah at least bones understands. I'll admit my words were kind of vague..but saying, nuh-uh you can edgeguard sheik 100% when she's far offstage is kind of stupid to be honest. We're talking about the edgeguards that pp dropped vs sheik not the ones he hit. and it is the same for every char. the goal is to have invuln at just the right moment so you can edgeguard her. with marth it is usually worth just going offstage and hitting her since the risk of that is about the same as trying to DJ refresh the ledge and the payoff is higher. I think falco has higher risk of a reverse gimp for that though, so you can opt to either take that risk or just invuln refresh

 

[Bing]

I also never said it eas 100%. No one did. I also admitted to making it seem like it was a hell of a lot easier then it actually was.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

lol kp you've been so abrasive recently. everything okay bro?

 

[knightpraetor]

"If she has to Up B, you should be able to edgehog her, or force her onstage and hit back off rinse-repeat 100%. The only exception if you get fooled.

There is no way sheik can "recover correctly" which makes it 50/50 in any way shape or form. She only survives if you mess up.
__________________"

so how exactly do you avoid it being a 50/50 when the sheik is close enough to angle her up b so that she can go on stage or bounce against the edge. She is invuln during the teleport. if you stand on from the ledge, the bounce will make her fall to it for free. bair and the like also miss from the ledge. waveland on also gives her the edge. roll takes the ledge but if she goes straight up she falls and grabs the ledge in time. Maybe falco's roll is faster tahn marth's, but it definitely works on marth.

now if you mean that this situation won't pop up that often cause you can go offstage and get to her first..that's obvious....but i'm just annoyed because people assumed that i was somehow talking about having a 50/50 all the time when i'm obviously just refering to when sheik is getting back on from pretty close and the falco didn't risk going off and getting faired against the stage.

Anyway, invuln refresh during her up b will beat all of that. just don't mess up or she's going to explode on you and then knock you off stage

 

[Bing]

gosh people are really underestimating sheik's recovery abilities.

he got on when he could have rolled because whether you get on or roll there is always a 50/50 at worst for sheik on edgeguarding if she recovers correctly.

Looks pretty straight forward to me... Just pick your words better next time, we all **** up with **** like this and we all get flamed for it too

 

[knightpraetor]

yeah i know. it's just frustrating. i posted before saying that a lot of disagreements on smashboards come from unclear language and the fact that people don't adequately describe the situations they are talking about..they often use phrases like "fair approach" or "nair approach" but don't even really specify the spacings they are done at. No one wants to write " SH approaching falling fair from 1.5 wavedash lengths away"

 

[Bones0]

@KP
Even if you're timing the Firebird stall to avoid the up-B's blast, you're still at risk of getting hit by an aerial (though obviously this is all just situational based on how high/close she is to the stage). Unless you're talking about when she doesn't have a DJ, and then I guess it would work.

It just comes down to the fact that she is floaty enough and her up-B is warped enough that there's no way you can cover all of the possible scenarios with one burst of invinc, and to get a second burst of invinc would just put you at risk for all of her **** which (for the most part) means you instantly die instead of having her trapped at the ledge.

No matter what happens, you absolutely HAVE to grab the ledge when she's within range of just being able to DJ/quick up-B onto it. Edgeguarding Marth is the SAME ****, but he doesn't have a teleport. If they are within range of the DJ/quick up-B, they take one of those retardedly safe options and you've lost your edgeguard opportunity.

Once you DO have the ledge, then they are going to burn your invinc as best they can. If they still have their DJ and are within range of just DJing to the ledge, you might as well get off because you're not going to accomplish anything outside of getting yourself killed. Even if you play it out perfectly, they just float down until your invinc is out, which means you either stand/roll off the ledge. Once they see you got off the ledge, they simply DJ and/or up-B to the ledge. Unless they are extremely lazy with the spacing of their recovery, you can't do any sort of ledgestand immediate dsmash or anything. Trying to up-B stall again instead of getting off the ledge is simply not feasible. If anyone could just up-B stall frame perfect, then they'd love life because they could just do that and completely waste the Sheik's DJ and leave them with no options other than to up-B on stage.

Aside from getting on stage, the only option left is to drop down quickly off the ledge and use rising bair to hit her out of her DJ. As soon as you drop, Sheik will either try to hit you (you're out of invinc remember) or try to up-B to the ledge. I think if there's anywhere where Falco's edgeguard can be improved vs. Sheik, it'd be in this instance. Doing something like faking a DJ bair by dropping but instead dropping down then DJ up-B stalling back onto the ledge may successfully avoid any aerials and force her to go on stage with her up-B because you'd have a good invinc refresh timing. You could also mess around with shine stalling, but I think that would only work if they preemptive aerial for your DJ (and you punish with DJ bair). A lot of these tricks just get thrashed by her ability to decide to up-B at any time. If you drop off the ledge and she happened to up-B to the ledge, you then exposed to a million different edgeguard possibilities. From there, she can probably just let go of the ledge and aerial (bair covers pretty much anything you could do except super ballz deep shine stall or some walljump shenanigans). If you DJ super early, you're still at risk from her doing a drop down DJ nair onto the stage or something. Idk really. You're basically looking at whatever M2K did in that clip where he took someone to the bottom of FD with like 14 fairs.



Shoutouts to Dark Hart playing me for like 3 hours straight at Zenith. lol Learned so many things about this damn matchup. Of course Melee is ****ing ridiculous, so I was only able to test about 1% of my ****ing options, and 50% of them I didn't even brainstorm until after the tourney.

 

[mr.fizwidget]

shoutouts to dark hart playing me for like 3 hours straight at zenith. Lol learned so many things about this damn matchup. Of course melee is ****ing ridiculous, so i was only able to test about 1% of my ****ing options, and 50% of them i didn't even brainstorm until after the tourney.

looooooooooooooooooooooooooooool

 

[Bl@ckChris]

<3 fiz

you're a champion.

when i grow up, i wanna be you. or dark hart...or...yeah...

 

[Dr Peepee]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vv6IurJFuVM

0:27 need to defend m2k first, pin trapped teammate 2nd
I would have had to have comboed him at that percent to push him far away, is that what I should have done? I could shoot him but then I can't focus on Jman.

0:33 blind dair, just don't do this really lol
Guess I thought I'd hit someone XD

0:50 blind dair, should establish position with teammate at the edge rather than put yourself into a 2 vs 1 scenario, which it is even if you hit because you're between them.
Why is the Dair "blind" exactly? Is it because I'm not observing when I do it? Anyway, I guess I'll fall with a laser more often now, good idea.

1:40 poor recovery, this is one of those times where you're screwed, so you go for the blind dair that i just told you not to do so you can make throw off the edge guard. edge guarding in teams is sometimes complicated because of both players, and just screwing up one of them (jman) might give you...something.
I tried to shine Yay out of his up-B, I'm not sure how I could have screwed up Jman from that high in the air unless I fell into M2K first....could you explain this to me please?

1:54 the DI was probably correct but...don't jump into the fox lol
yeah...

2:46 missed a free kill. even w/ no edge hog, a suicide dair would have been good. remember that right after fox starts moving, his up B trades with the spike, which you can DI off of and recover from. you should actively learn this skill, free kills on the most played teams character are cool.
I thought Yay was gonna get him and didn't want to kill him too. I'll talk to him about that though.


overall: lots of unnecessary dash dancing. when the game splits into 2 1 vs 1s, you get a lot of good punishment, but i didn't see this situation get set up. this may be in part because both opponents are very defensive players and less likely to let themselves get trapped. you also got caught off guard multiple times at the 2 vs 1. any of them could have been upsmash and suddenly the match is legit again. absolutely stay focused, even if you think your teammate has it.
We tried to trap Jman but he always got away or stalled long enough for M2K to save him.

I'll work on what you've said but I have some frustrations you just pointed out that you haven't really addressed yet. I'll wait until I read all of this post to respond to that though.


3:38-4:44 you spend SO much time out of combat. your main strength as a player and the reason to play falco is to use your punishment game. You absolutely no not want to make petty trades like you did this stock. if you were fox, it might open up some good upsmashes or shinespikes, but as falco it offers you nothing. waiting is okay sometimes, but just sitting back and firing lasers here is extensive and harmful.
I don't even know what I could have done about this besides snipe Jman on the top platform with a shine.

4:50 ****ing awesome teammate save. even if you didn't hit jman w/ a laser to **** him up, hitting your teammate was great. and then once jman loses position, you screw up m2k so he can't edge guard either. excellent decision-making overall.
ye

5:42 the nair was probably a bad choice. ok it was a bad choice. your performance of said nair looked really sloppy and i'm guessing you didn't want to do it.
Yeah tech skill lameness.

5:52 the second time you jumped up from below the edge into a kill move. just watch out for this small stuff.
I thought I had space since Yay was covering me but I guess I just need to learn to up-B stall or observe the situation better(could have DJ'd over M2K there I suppose).


overall: it looks like a lot of the mistakes are small ones that are actually 1 on 1 type of stuff and not teams specific. m2k also did ****ing fantastic, so maybe once a player starts doing that well against you, you should find some way to make that player less effective? your team actually had a lead until yay got gimped by backthrow > shine, and it looks like your team never really regained control after that point. really big loss of momentum. i also never really saw you go off on either player in terms of a big punish.
They kept running away from me and I couldn't ever lock either player down like I do in singles because of it. I should have been more aggressive maybe?


9:21 beautiful edge hog. >_>
ye

9:35 really good setup on jman, followed by excellent walling on m2k the bair on both foxes actually sets up a good edge guard on jman, while letting you fight m2k alone (which is good for you).
ye

10:18 trying to save your teammate is probably the right move, but you didn't adequately deal with fox first and it comes back to bite you again, similar to 0:50 where you need to deal with the first problem before addressing the second. fox dying was like...maybe maybe not but it cost you your stock as well.
I just jumped into M2K's Nair like a huge noob. I guess I didn't have to laser that far forward and should have lasered into a shield/dodge maybe?

11:30-11:56 you had no stage control, and never got it. having no control in teams is an excellent way to know that you're losing. no surprises really.
so....just study this part and do singles stuff better?


overall: i think the team work was lacking. for the first 2 games, you and yay played off of each other pretty well, and you didn't really have to carry the team. in this game, he actively screwed you up. i think you need to shoot less and to use quick movements, dair/bair, and tricky placement to secure the area around you. by skipping this step, you spend a lot of time teching or trying to gain footing.
What do you mean quick movements? More like jerky ones? I guess I need to be more efficient with my teams movement is what you mean? I would agree with that but it's not natural so I'll have to put a lot of thought into it.

game 4 it just looks like jman wrecks and yay plays bad. you got the good damage punishes like you're going for. i didn't see much worth talking about.

okay

you definitely have some holes to work on. like singles, almost all of it i think is in your neutral game. you should be dashdancing and shooting less and establishing stage control with falco feet to regulate the flow of the match. i also think you should team with a character that doesn't die immediately as soon as you can't carry the team, like peach/jigglypuff. I would say sheik but you still do some team attacks and sheik's recovery is very exploitable on poor trades like the bair @ 9:35 and could get her killed. once you work those out of your play, sheik is an acceptable choice too.
when we tried getting stage in GFs it worked out best for us so there's something to that I imagine. I'd like to team with a great floaty sometime....


defeating your opponent through character choice is COMPLETELY legitimate and the tournament will honor say your falco destroying some poor Ness player the same way it would punish you and your teammate both picking frail characters. if your opponent is punishing your character choice, poor counterpicks, or even situational luck, you need to consider it as something you can work on and fix.
do you recommend me switching to fox over finding a new teammate, or both things?


most of your mistakes are marginal ones. by that i mean, you lose advantage in small increments here and there. you're never the cause for a large momentum shift, which is good and bad at the same time. if you're losing to infrequent big decisions, you can simply stop doing them and see much improvement. with small marginal difficulties, they're frustrating to work out of your play and it's hard to tell if you're doing better at all.
I've never felt so inconsequential in teams as I did in those sets....it could be Falco or me just not showing up to play. At any rate I should play lots more Fox in teams and see what I can learn.


There's a philosophy I'd like to introduce you to referred loosely as "kaizen". It is effectively changing many small things to lead to some bigger result later. For example, you don't jump into jman's shine or sheik's dsmash in that video, and perhaps you could have gotten 30% more. or maybe an extra kill. maybe nothing at all, but stalled for time which lead to some other favorable consequence. in the ultimate finality of playing to win, you must take every margin possible, and it could make you 30% or 1 kill better, or maybe have no effect but it's still strictly beneficial. let me repeat that:

It's a strict tactical advantage.

This is part of why mew2king is a paragon in teams and a master of efficiency. Even if you have no idea what you can possibly do to improve your teams game, you can always simply copy his strategic decision-making and apply it to your character in the same way you can steal a tactic like the marth killer and it will probably make you better at teams.

I agree with all of that. I need to study M2K's efficiency more.

i'm sure you'll want to go over this in detail in the near future, but you should have the idea. it's pretty much neutral game stuff and establishing control. you had the same problem in singles for the same event and actually for somewhat similar reasons (bad DD use, blind aerials). text me, leave something, whatever.

we are currently on aim so yeah read dis plz

responses in bold. thanks a MEGA SICK LOAD for typing this up dude. I'll be sending a copy to yay as well so we can larnz.

 

[Deleted member]

in order:

0:27 I think uptilt might have been a better choice? i guess it's a very marginal thing and might not matter.

0:50 it's blind because there's no real set-up. it's kind of like when you see bad players that just throw a move out? even if you hit, are you really prepared to take on both of them by yourself while your teammate recovers? the momentum of the match broke, so it was a good time to regroup with your teammate and to go back to a neutral game to establish position. going in there is like...you know that even if you hit one, you still have to deal with the other, but you also didn't have any set-up to make sure that you actually hit? jman himself could have exploited it without m2k IMO it's just over-extending basically.

1:40 if you pause here, you're way up high and m2k is a pretty decent distance to the left. as you're already in a bad position, you kind of have a warrant to play a little risky as a means to overcome that situation, wheres playing a respect game will almost certainly result in your death. IMO the best option was to do a dair onto jman like i told you not to do 50 seconds prior because the circumstances are different: you aren't risking much because really you should be dead anyway, m2k isn't close enough for it to be a 2 vs 1, and you have a 1% chance to do...something for your teammate.

**** it i'll do the rest tomorrow. so lazy.

 

[SUNG666]

When Fox/Falco are side Bing is there an optimal way to cover both the full length and shortened versions of it?

I think the only way is to grab the ledge when they shorten

 

[Wenbobular]

Falco's is slightly worse than Fox's from my experience so you might be able to poke him out of it
Fox's is teleportation so there's nothing onstage that'll hit it (even runoff DJ Dair misses way more often than not)

When I was playing PP he once did a goofy SH no fastfall Nair and that hit me where I started the illusion, was ****
Every other time he tried to do something onstage and I just got back and ledgedash upsmashed him