PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Wenbobular]

Everyone vote to get these guys a Melee tournament in Costa Rica

@Bones
In all seriousness, how is Falco's different from Fox's?

 

[Bones0]

They're pretty much identical... Falco's goes higher, but it's negligible.

 

[Wenbobular]

Well, I almost never get Dtilted out of my Fox DJ sweetspots by anyone
When I do it's always "crap I messed up my DJ nooooo"

 

[Winston]

Personally I think shinestalling is bad vs Marth because they can see you are doing it and runoff fair you. A lot of bad Marths won't be watching what you are doing and will just randomly Dtilt and fsmash though so if you bait that with a shinestall you get a punish.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Shine stall to DJ Dair or turnaround Bair or walljump Bair/side B/airdodge

all of those would avoid runoff Fair from Marth I'd think.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

nobody said anything about my super cool idea of shine turn waveland dtilt off the edge.

you guys are mean.

nah jk that's probably way more effort than it's worth.

 

[Wenbobular]

Shine stall to DJ Dair or turnaround Bair or walljump Bair/side B/airdodge

all of those would avoid runoff Fair from Marth I'd think.

I feel like shinestall -> DJ aerial just gets whooped by standing a little away from the ledge and doing a move <_<
Which I feel is the default option

 

[Bl@ckChris]

rock paper scissors.

that is all.

 

[S l o X]

http://youtu.be/6SgAGtzyWXg [Me vs ZoSo]

Zoso ended up winning the tournament . . . again. *sigh* I've finally gotten to the point where all of my sets vs him are incredibly close. Last time I played Falcon and it came down to game 3.

Anyway, I need advice. After the tournament I realized how much time I need independently to practice basic tech skill. I've been working on perfect shine oos and since I'm almost getting there I've been working on wavedashing out of those. (Something I once thought impossible for me) In the set I put myself at risk more than he does when I double jump and when I get reads I think I should go less for smash attacks and more for grabs. (In general, I should go for more grabs. Shine grabs and just straight up grabs since I think he relies too much on his shield because of his godlike OOS game)

Tips would be appreciated.

 

[Winston]

Shine stall to DJ Dair or turnaround Bair or walljump Bair/side B/airdodge

all of those would avoid runoff Fair from Marth I'd think.

if Marth just stands there after dthrowing and he sees you shinestall and runs off with fair, jumping out of shine with dj dair will beat that? is dair really that broken?

 

[unknown522]

Currently in Quebec. Got 3rd at the tourney yesterday. I went 1-1 with Vwins and lost to bam in WFs. I didnt use falco in singles though. I used him in doubles with kage. We lost to Vwins + bam twice. So 2nd place.

We're all just kind chilling and seeing the city/trying food. Kage gives great housing

 

[leffen]

Currently in Quebec. Got 3rd at the tourney yesterday. I went 1-1 with Vwins and lost to bam in WFs. I didnt use falco in singles though. I used him in doubles with kage. We lost to Vwins + bam twice. So 2nd place.

We're all just kind chilling and seeing the city/trying food. Kage gives great housing

smash players need twitter lol

so much "attention whoring" in random threads atm xD (not hatin, I've done it myself too)

 

[knightpraetor]

"if Marth just stands there after dthrowing and he sees you shinestall and runs off with fair, jumping out of shine with dj dair will beat that? is dair really that broken?"

it would, but why would marth run off? i would short hop off...run off tends to fail cause they can's start the fair during the run when they see the falco start to jump

that said, i'm not saying that even that is flawless....if you jump off and falco just shine and DJ swetspots the ledge you only have dair and aerials to cover it with, so nothing is perfect

 

[Dr Peepee]

nobody said anything about my super cool idea of shine turn waveland dtilt off the edge.

you guys are mean.

nah jk that's probably way more effort than it's worth.

what are you talking about I don't even know

I feel like shinestall -> DJ aerial just gets whooped by standing a little away from the ledge and doing a move <_<
Which I feel is the default option

Well yes this is all dependent on spacing, which is why I listed multiple options. Shine stall to observe them standing far away to walljump side B(shorten or not) or DJ shorten below Dtilt range will beat that spacing though I think.

if Marth just stands there after dthrowing and he sees you shinestall and runs off with fair, jumping out of shine with dj dair will beat that? is dair really that broken?

I think it trades? I dunno, depends on the spacing possibly but I wouldn't feel good about it as Marth. Then again I don't have much faith in run off Fair so maybe I just need to use it a lot more to see if I can figure out what all of the excitement is about(it only looks good when they don't use a move to me afaik).

smash players need twitter lol

so much "attention whoring" in random threads atm xD (not hatin, I've done it myself too)

let's get ahead of the game and google+ all of our attention whoring(take that FGC twittering)

 

[knightpraetor]

that's because most marths dont time the runoff properly...it shouldn't be done till falco falls to a height that makes DJ back on stage difficult...too many people start the run off early because they don't read the DI properly on the dthrow or wait for falco to fall to the right point before running off. I'm still hesitant to support run off though..lately i've been preferring to use those extra frames while the falco is falling to just sh off...it tends to bait them to come with an aerial..but it can cover farther back DJ firefox/firebird

 

[Jethrotex]

let's get ahead of the game and google+ all of our attention whoring(take that FGC twittering)

I think we need to go back to the dayz of Myspace.

 

[Dr Peepee]

@KP: SH'ing feels better in my head too(which is what I suggested on the Marth boards anyway but not going offstage with it like you did).

If I get to play the matchup more with Falcos that shine stall I'll look into that(no idea when that'll be lol).

 

[Wenbobular]

I've had ****ty luck trying to shorten past Marth's Dtilt with Falco -_-
I'm either much worse at sweetspotting it compared to Fox's or it's not magic teleportation like Fox's shorten

 

[Strong Badam]

i been updating my myspace for YEARS with secret frame data

 

[ViperGold42]

Falco IS WAY more fun to play in Melee than brawl.

 

[Mogwai]

Falco IS WAY more fun to play in Melee than brawl.

that's true of literally every character in the two games as far as I can tell.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I've had ****ty luck trying to shorten past Marth's Dtilt with Falco -_-
I'm either much worse at sweetspotting it compared to Fox's or it's not magic teleportation like Fox's shorten

I don't try it personally(usually anyway) but other Falcos have done it to my Marth so I figure it works lol.

The shorten probably works differently from Fox's, but I couldn't begin to explain how.

 

[Wenbobular]

I feel like shortening works fine vs Marth's jab but sucks vs Dtilt
But if Marth is crouching you can just long phantasm through their head and Dtilt won't catch you in time if they think you're shortening

Sigh
Just explaining it makes it feel mad ghetto
Why can't Falco have a magical teleportation ability

 

[leffen]

Its not that complicated...

Marths Dtilt has a long hitbox, which means that the point where you start to slow down when shortening your side B (assuming the shortest version) is almost always gonna be in dtilts range, so it will hit you regardless (assuming that you're sweet spotting your side b)

However, Marths dtilt isn't out for very long, and it has a very low hitbox. This means that when you go higher with side B (but on a height level where dtilt would still hit you with the top if its hitbox once you come closer) you can shorten your side b so that it stops just out of dtilts range making it whiff, and since your higher now, you can gain some extra distance by just falling, letting you grab the ledge.


TL;DR Go higher when you're gonna shorten your side B against marth

 

[unknown522]

smash players need twitter lol

so much "attention whoring" in random threads atm xD (not hatin, I've done it myself too)

oh I tweeted it too

 

[Wenbobular]

@Leffen - I just think it's dumb because I don't have to care at all with Fox's <_<

 

[Mahone]

http://www.twitch.tv/m4h0n3

can u critique my falco and accept boss' ******** mms

 

[Dr Peepee]

Its not that complicated...

Marths Dtilt has a long hitbox, which means that the point where you start to slow down when shortening your side B (assuming the shortest version) is almost always gonna be in dtilts range, so it will hit you regardless (assuming that you're sweet spotting your side b)

However, Marths dtilt isn't out for very long, and it has a very low hitbox. This means that when you go higher with side B (but on a height level where dtilt would still hit you with the top if its hitbox once you come closer) you can shorten your side b so that it stops just out of dtilts range making it whiff, and since your higher now, you can gain some extra distance by just falling, letting you grab the ledge.


TL;DR Go higher when you're gonna shorten your side B against marth

whoa so you can't side B cancel and be below Marth's Dtilt? Shows how much experience I have with that. XD Thanks for the info dude

http://www.twitch.tv/m4h0n3

can u critique my falco and accept boss' ******** mms

bout to scope dis out

 

[leffen]

I think its POSSIBLE, but it would probably require you to time it very perfectly or to have the marth not be on the tip of the stage

 

[Dr Peepee]

okay so it only works when he's on the tip of the stage. good to know.

I'll play around with it to be sure and let you know if it's different than that(I don't think it is).

 

[Metal Reeper]

Hey PP what would you say is the best throw vs Fox,Marth,Sheik,Falcon,Peach,Doc, and Puff? Im guessing Uthrow is kind of the answer to all of the MU's. After I Uthrow what do I wanna go for? Uair? Dair? Any idea to what % the throw>attack works at?
Thanks PP! <3

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hey PP what would you say is the best throw vs Fox,Marth,Sheik,Falcon,Peach,Doc, and Puff? Im guessing Uthrow is kind of the answer to all of the MU's. After I Uthrow what do I wanna go for? Uair? Dair? Any idea to what % the throw>attack works at?
Thanks PP! <3

A lot, and I mean a LOT of those answers will depend on percents, conditioning, situation prior to throwing, pummeling, and stage position. I'll give some general ideas for throws vs those characters though I suppose.

Fox: Upthrow is great if they aren't ready for the throw at all at most low and mid and sometimes high percents. leads to shine/fsmash/nair/dair/fair depending on %.

Marth: Uthrow is definitely best vs him no matter what lol. He just sucks that high in the air. Above 10%(after the throw iirc) leads to Fair until maybe 40%(might not be that high) or something, when you want to be Uair'ing or Dair'ing to combo anyway lol.

Sheik: I've been messing with throws vs her, but I think Uthrow is usually the best throw vs her. Fthrow is kinda good too at lower percents because Sheik either has to Ftilt to counter you waiting or shield to counter an immediate attack(grab might beat both but I don't think so). Uthrow is best overall though until you can start making Sheik tech with Fthrow anyway(possibly 45%-60%) then it becomes whatever you feel like doing more.

Falcon: Uthrow is mad hard to follow up on Falcon but you do it to get him in the air then try to Uptilt/Bair/Nair him depending on what he does. At really low percents Uthrow you might get a shine or nothing it depends on Falcon's DI iirc. Just wait for the DJ and try to follow under him and see if you can get a hit. If he doesn't jump then you can usually hit him or shoot him before he lands. Fthrow tech chase aerial is also great vs him around 45% and onward so long as he can't edgecancel.

Peach: Uthrow is really good for getting a flimsy Uair combo or whatever, but it's best to get her out of her element so you can Uptilt/Bair her for more damage(positional reward over combo basically). Fthrow is okay once in a while if you can make her DI lower(maybe 70%ish?) because that leads into laser Fsmash I'm pretty sure.

Doc: Same as Falcon I suppose, but easier to get under him and Uptilt lol.

Puff: Upthrow a ton until....I want to say 110% then I think it stops comboing into Uair/Dair so it's not worth it. You have to try Dthrow Upsmash/Fsmash(Fsmash works better at lower percents since she can't just fly away from the lower stun...I'll say 70-85% Dthrow Fsmash is worth attempting once in a while) and Bthrow Dair(by the edge usually) as mixups and do them REALLY quickly so Puff has a hard time reacting to the throw(she's light so it's easier).


If you have any more questions related to this just lemme know. Keep in mind the disclaimers I had in the beginning as well. Also a general rule of thumb is throw them offstage if you're by the edge because spiking people early is too good(even if you don't combo into it from the throw) lol.

 

[Metal Reeper]

^Thanks PP that was a huge help. Also I was wondering is Dthrow>whatever liable on Fox in the current metagame? It's just I haven't seen anyone go for that in years and I think it could still work. And it has a good payoff if it does. Your opinion?

 

[Wenbobular]

How does Sheik Ftilting beat your waiting? Unless you mean the throw doesn't send them out of their Ftilt range or something, but if that's the case couldn't you Ftilt first or something?

I thought the snap Ftilt was meant to deter your immediate aerial attempts but gets kinda kicked in the face if you just stand there and they Ftilt

 

[Dr Peepee]

^Thanks PP that was a huge help. Also I was wondering is Dthrow>whatever liable on Fox in the current metagame? It's just I haven't seen anyone go for that in years and I think it could still work. And it has a good payoff if it does. Your opinion?

Yeah it's still great vs Fox(all throws are good vs him imo, some moreso than others). Dthrow Dtilt vs Dthrow Shine are usually what you have to mixup to hit Fox but you get great reward on it. Dthrow Dsmash at high percents is a great finisher as well(Uthrow is a great mixup here too which makes this stronger).

Only problem with Dthrow is sometimes you can get shined out of it if you choose to grab if you think Fox tries to spotdodge the Dtilt(I think that can happen sometimes).

How does Sheik Ftilting beat your waiting? Unless you mean the throw doesn't send them out of their Ftilt range or something, but if that's the case couldn't you Ftilt first or something?

I thought the snap Ftilt was meant to deter your immediate aerial attempts but gets kinda kicked in the face if you just stand there and they Ftilt

I mostly meant you can't intimidate Sheik without getting inside of Ftilt range really(Nair gets CC'd) so you have to play around in that range if Sheik shields and decides she wants to Nair OOS or have some other quick reaction to you coming into her. If she just Ftilts instinctively then you run into it and look really dumb LOL.

Also yeah you wait to beat the immediate Ftilt or you Dair super fast(or Ftilt like you said if % is really low and they DI in).

 

[Wenbobular]

Cool that's kinda what I thought you meant but got a little confused

I feel like the only thing I know how to do vs Sheik is watch for immediate Ftilts because it's just like baiting Falco uptilts <_<

 

[zebra]

http://youtu.be/6SgAGtzyWXg [Me vs ZoSo]

Zoso ended up winning the tournament . . . again. *sigh* I've finally gotten to the point where all of my sets vs him are incredibly close. Last time I played Falcon and it came down to game 3.

Anyway, I need advice. After the tournament I realized how much time I need independently to practice basic tech skill. I've been working on perfect shine oos and since I'm almost getting there I've been working on wavedashing out of those. (Something I once thought impossible for me) In the set I put myself at risk more than he does when I double jump and when I get reads I think I should go less for smash attacks and more for grabs. (In general, I should go for more grabs. Shine grabs and just straight up grabs since I think he relies too much on his shield because of his godlike OOS game)

Tips would be appreciated.

 

[Brookman]

Slox you suck I **** zoso e-z

j/k <3 zoso ;D

 

[MattDotZeb]

I'm starting to think dthrow -> jab reset is one of the better things Falco can do from grabs...

Or am I just dumb?

 

[Wenbobular]

Don't people techroll mad far? How does Falco actually catch people who just techroll away from him on flat ground