PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[TheZhuKeeper]

I think the only way is to grab the ledge when they shorten

preemptive hildalgo is good too, but that's more preventative / situational.

 

[Dr Peepee]

what the heck is a preemptive hildalgo?

 

[JPOBS]

If she has to Up B, you should be able to edgehog her, or force her onstage and hit back off rinse-repeat 100%. The only exception if you get fooled.
.

It's definitely NOT that simple. You have to manage your invinc to account for needles, aerials, DJ aerials, any weird delay applied to all of those, and sweetspots where they DJ and/or up-B to the ledge super quickly. If you can theoretically edgeguard Sheik every time, it's very risky and unforgiveably difficult in terms of reacting to what options they have any any given moment. Then you still have the fact that even if you force them to up-B on stage, you still have to punish, and at lower %s you aren't going to just be able to LH bair them back off and repeat. They will DI too high, and the second go-around they will have a lot more options that you CANNOT cover 100%.

Read what i said again. IF she has to Up B she's as good as dead. Obviously having her double jump gives her a ton of options

yeah at least bones understands. I'll admit my words were kind of vague..but saying, nuh-uh you can edgeguard sheik 100% when she's far offstage is kind of stupid to be honest.

no, your just bad and dont play falco

"If she has to Up B, you should be able to edgehog her, or force her onstage and hit back off rinse-repeat 100%. The only exception if you get fooled.

There is no way sheik can "recover correctly" which makes it 50/50 in any way shape or form. She only survives if you mess up.
__________________"

so how exactly do you avoid it being a 50/50 when the sheik is close enough to angle her up b so that she can go on stage or bounce against the edge. She is invuln during the teleport. if you stand on from the ledge, the bounce will make her fall to it for free. bair and the like also miss from the ledge. waveland on also gives her the edge. roll takes the ledge but if she goes straight up she falls and grabs the ledge in time. Maybe falco's roll is faster tahn marth's, but it definitely works on marth.

now if you mean that this situation won't pop up that often cause you can go offstage and get to her first..that's obvious....but i'm just annoyed because people assumed that i was somehow talking about having a 50/50 all the time when i'm obviously just refering to when sheik is getting back on from pretty close and the falco didn't risk going off and getting faired against the stage.

Anyway, invuln refresh during her up b will beat all of that. just don't mess up or she's going to explode on you and then knock you off stage

What are you talking about? none of this makes sense. bounce off the stage? wtf? go back to the marth boards

 

[JPOBS]

also m2k stop with the pity party. You have tons of fans, the reason people help PP is cuz he talks on the board a lot. Make a "ask M2k marth questions" thread and people will be all on ur nuts before you know what to do. Then 'll get advice and you'll get better and u lost the set by one game lmao sheik/marth vs falco isnt impossible

 

[Jake13]

He did the same thing both times, which is waiting until the last second to pull back with the up-B there. I can't just roll up and be okay vs that.

why not? roll a few frames later for an edgehog. if he goes for the edge, ****. if he goes for stage, he's got lag you've got lag we've all got lag

 

[Bl@ckChris]

have you never faced a sheik good enough to land on the edge to the point where if you get back up, she falls to the edge?

boy is that an eye opener the first time.

 

[Dr Peepee]

why not? roll a few frames later for an edgehog. if he goes for the edge, ****. if he goes for stage, he's got lag you've got lag we've all got lag

It's an ambiguous height that he up-Bs at. Maybe I can learn the height he should up-B at to hit onstage or when he's trying to trip me up but it's tough to see. At a very similar height he could even land on the very edge of the stage(my roll up would not be able to punish him then). I'll see if I can figure out how to observe all of that but I'm not sure if that's possible.

 

[Deleted member]

i made a massive edit to my post that took like an hour and then my internet went out when i hit reply. fml.

everything is terrible forever.

 

[Dr Peepee]

that's LAME dude

take your time if you don't wanna redo it right now. I understand haha

 

[Winston]

Write it in wordpad or something if its a big post =(

Come on, you guys are top-level smashboarders, don't make such rookie mistakes

 

[ShroudedOne]

Notepad is one of the greatest things to ever exist.

 

[knightpraetor]

lolol I may be bad but jpobs getting mad exposed..what kind of nooby falco is bad enough to not even know about sheik stage bounce. obviously never played tope

edit: sorry seems i was wrong

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

what the heck is a preemptive hildalgo?

hildalgo is the name of the move zhu popularized where one feigns wavedashing to the edge for an edgehog but instead fastfalls past and then does a rising bair


edit- why do i remember these things.... sigh

 

[knightpraetor]

lol cool name

 

[Warhawk]

hildalgo is the name of the move zhu popularized where one feigns wavedashing to the edge for an edgehog but instead fastfalls past and then does a rising bair


edit- why do i remember these things.... sigh

So like this here? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2Oe2JcBV-g&feature=player_detailpage#t=105s

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Yeah that

 

[Bones0]

Read what i said again. IF she has to Up B she's as good as dead. Obviously having her double jump gives her a ton of options

why not? roll a few frames later for an edgehog. if he goes for the edge, ****. if he goes for stage, he's got lag you've got lag we've all got lag

Everyone always says to just roll once your invinc is running out as she stalls doing her up-B, but then if she goes straight up, you can't get to her in time. That's what happens to me at least. I grab the ledge right before they're within range of up-Bing to it. Then they wait as long as possible to waste my invinc. If they are too far to hit me with the up-B, then I don't have to worry about invinc anyway, and I will never be forced to roll, so those edgeguards are fine. If they are close enough to hit me and I get off at any point, they just quick up-B to the ledge. If they panic and up-B, great, I just ledgestand to cover the ledge, then react if they went on stage or straight up. If they wait 'til my invinc is gone before up-Bing, then I have to move. If I roll, I cover the ledge, but they can go straight up, or even land on the stage. If I ledgestand, I leave the ledge open for them, but if they are too scared about the roll they may go straight up or on stage in which case I kill them.

If there's something I'm doing wrong that could enable me to cover both options, I'm open to trying it. I just don't see it because she can just stall with her floatiness and the startup of her up-B.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

use the invincibility from the stand up to avoid the fire from the upb. If they go straight up, simply wavedash backwards and edgehog. One should never roll vs sheik's upb as falco.

 

[Bones0]

Is it actually possible to ledgestand late enough (with no invinc from the ledge grab) that you avoid the hitbox AND hog the ledge? Because if that's true, then I just need to work on my ledgestand timing. I thought you needed invinc from the initial ledgegrab in order to avoid the entire up-B with a ledgestand.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

nope, not if you time it correctly. I thought this was oldoldoldoldold technology... learned in Vro's basement ca. 2009 and im sure it was used long before

 

[knightpraetor]

hmm, so maybe i owe jpobs an apology then. So are you saying that even if they don't sweetspot you can still be on the ledge? i'm not skeptical at all about dodging the explosion, that's child's play to dodge...

but i was pretty sure sheik could bounce against the side and still regrab against stand on...

time for Kirbykaze to come in and give a ruling

..that or strongbad....but if falco/fox have had 100% edgeguard on sheik's recovery for years then why haven't they been doing it

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

If the fire is threatening the person holding the edge and they do a stand up while the sheik goes directly into the edge, the sheik will not grab the edge if the stand up was timed properly. I play against a sheik player who tries this more than he should (he claims he was doing it on accident most of the time, coming from below and attemping to go onto the stage but getting blocked by the lip) and I can confirm that he dies every time.

 

[knightpraetor]

ok after some testing I think i owe jpobs an apology. time to man up. sorry dude. seems like even if they do the up b as high as possible and bounce the ledge you can time the get on. I was always under the impression that you could guard against the fire but couldn't block the ledge but I guess people just miss those cause they are unnecessarily scared of the fire. it looks like if you stand on a few frames early she gets it but if you wait till the very last moment you should be fine. so roll on really doesn't have a place except when she is likely to mix in the horizontal one on stage.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

Yeah I use a well timed ledgestand as ganon. My ledgestand might be slower than yours though. I think its actually easier above 100%.

 

[JPOBS]

yea, its all about ledgestand. i hate the name drop game so much but i live in a region with kk and unknown (best vs sheik in the world) so like, yea i've seen sheik recover and get bodied endlessly enough to know atleast that

edit: i still want to know wat u mean by the sheik "stage bounce" tho...

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

hildalgo is the name of the move zhu popularized where one feigns wavedashing to the edge for an edgehog but instead fastfalls past and then does a rising bair


edit- why do i remember these things.... sigh

i think germ and i happened to do it independently (i'm sure other falcos too). dbr gave it that clever name, i only know about it because i did it to m2k once and phil / brandon called it that. i find this option to be really good against falco because it covers side b's (long and short) and high up b's.

 

[Vaccine]

can someone give me some advice please? i feel like theres a lot i can improve on in this matchup.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbnz8Tg_8UA&feature=g-all-u

 

[Wenbobular]

You make some super nooby recovery choices ...

:15 - terrible jump sweetspot
3:27 - should've died for picking such a bad place to up-b <_<
4:05 - haha ...
6:40 - bad up-b placement but since he's Marth I don't think he can actually kill you ... but there's still no reason to just give him free hits
7:04 - resist the temptation to do crappy fullhop Bairs through people ... they don't do anything other than give them an opportunity to hit you out of shield
7:08 - why would you DI away =_=
Do I have to mention to ending too haha

Summary - all I was chose to talk about were your bad recovery decisions so you should work on not giving away free stocks ... I'll let other people critique other stuff

Also I noticed you were trying to shield drop
That's cool, but you have to work on speed and consistency for it to be useful
I recommend learning how to do it on one side, then get really good at rolling it down to 45 degrees down on that side

That way you can tilt your shield a little to one side and shield drop quite consistently / speedily if you're ready for them

I think it actually has something to do with the controller, mine only shield drops going left, I have another that only shield drops going right <_<

Only being able to shield drop in one direction is good enough for me to get most people who do crappy attacks on my shield with shield drop Dair and the like

 

[Vaccine]

Thanks

yeah i suck at recovering vs marth! im alway scared of getting gimped by him =/.

i used to practice shield dropping quite a bit and i got pretty good at it but then i stop practicing it and now i suck at it =/.

 

[Wenbobular]

Just shinestall -> sweetspot your doublejump better, it works wonders
I know Falco's double jump is awkwardly mad high but it's your most important recovery skill
You can also mix up doublejump -> airdodge, but I find that sometimes my airdodge comes out a little slower than I think and die

Also if they're slow with running offstage you can trick them by dropping down past phantasm and up-b sweetspotting from below, but good Marths will probably just kill you on reaction

Shield dropping is a skill everyone should develop but no one has yet, get the jump on dudes now before people catch on!!

Actually who am I kidding no one's ever going to learn it so whatever ~_~

Also ledgedashing

Only came up once, but don't try to lightshield edgehog without knowing what your response is to airdodge onto the ledge / DJ side-b you onto the ledge / other shenanigans
Often just showing Marths the lightshield and shorthopping onto the ledge will be enough to screw their recovery up in some way
It might just be easier to refresh invincibility with ledgehops / smart firestalls though

 

[Vaccine]

shine stall -> doublejump sweetspot is what i usually try to do against most of the cast. against marth im just too scared to try that cause of his dtilt.

i thought he didnt have a jump thats why i tried to light shield egde guard there.

 

[TheSaudiMizer]

One thing you could try to work on is executing your reads/attacks a little more quickly. Like you did a good job baiting reactions out of him or making a good decision on how to punish or follow something up, but missed a few of these opportunities. If you're in the middle of comboing/punishing a marth and they escape somehow, like you missing their tech or just recovering a safe enough distance away, you should try to resume pressure with lasers more often than not. You went in for aerials in some situations like that and he was able to swat or evade you. But overall you look like you have a good general idea of how you should play it so keep working at it

 

[Bones0]

DJ sweetspot is horrible vs. Marth, even with the shine stall. You're better off DJing back and shortening and/or sweetspotting. Dtilt is his lowest ground move (maybe tied with dsmash), but you can side-B under it if you go low enough. Just don't try it if he's on the slant on YS. If you are going to DJ back to the ledge, space it further away and jump into a Firestall. It's way safer. I also wrote a mini-guide on edgeguarding Marth so I will find that.

THIS thread has a bunch of general matchup stuff, and I outlined edgeguarding specifically. Combine that with THIS post, and it should cover just about everything. The second link is a post about edge guarding as Fox, but as you can imagine it's almost the same. The major differences are:
- Fox can stop LHing bairs and just usmash once he gets to a certain percent
- Falco can use LH dair as a mixup for LH bair. If they DI in for a bair, you can double dair them. If they DI out for a dair, you can bair and shout "WEST COAST!"
- Fox can shine-bair because he can shine spike; Falco has to just drop down with invincibility and DJ bair, or has to make sure he lands the shine-bair properly to avoid tech opportunities (back of the shine).
- If Marth up-B's into Firefox stall, he gets saved, but vs. Firebird stall, Falco will regrab before he does and there's no hitbox to save him.

 

[knightpraetor]

can't picture wavedash out of shield punishing retreating nair..aerials should..but wavedash out of shield shouldn't be a guaranteed punish..what are you trying to do as he gets out? run away? i feel like jab/shine, retreating aerials, all of those should get out in time unless I'm just not wavedashing out of shield fast enough as marth and it's actually a true punish

 

[Wenbobular]

Bones how is DJ sweetspotting terrible vs Marth
I don't see how it's different from Fox / Falcon DJ sweetspotting vs Marth

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

DJ sweetspotting is simultaneously the safest and the riskiest choice against marth. In any case, I don't suggest doing the same thing every time and I don't suggest never sweetspotting with your jump, it should actually be one of your main choices.

 

[Wenbobular]

Why is it risky? Runoff gimp attempts?
I feel like you can usually get some kind of read by their movement onstage

 

[Bones0]

If they're good they just dtilt you. You can shine stall to make the timing weirder, but it's pretty easy to react to their DJ with a dtilt. It's not as bad with Falcon since he grabs the ledge from much further than the spacies, and his DJ is shorter (and his only other option is up-B, which isn't much of an option when you get down to it).

 

[Wenbobular]

I dunnoooo Bones
Maybe you just suck at sweetspotting your double jump

 

[Bones0]

Maybe Winston just sucks at dtilting you.

Hey guyz, check dis out.