PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Dr Peepee]

I don't want to get hit out of fire regrab and die, but I'll play around with that option too. I understand that, if done perfectly over and over, this is invincible? Seems worth mastering at any rate.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I understand that, if done perfectly over and over, this is invincible?

You tell me.

 

[Wenbobular]

Fox's perfect firestall is fully invincible but isn't Falco's slightly weird or something ... you have to double jump to grab the ledge? I know I can't just do Fox firestalls with Falco because he doesn't regrab
It's also mad hard to perfect firestall
You often don't need to do it perfectly though ... just time it so you regrab the ledge right before they try something

As for DIing Marth stuff, none of his aerials kill you off the side well enough that you should always DI away
At some point you should neutral DI so you don't just die from a Fair
And then eventually you should just in DI because you're at too high % to combo even with inside Fair

Fsmashes are also super telegraphed (as in they have to be standing on the ground) so you can usually see those coming

Also stuff like DI with the sword when he's uptilting you, DI away -> DI in on double inside Fair offstage, etc ....

In short: I do it because I don't always think sometimes and I'm not comboed by competent comboers often.

Suspected something of the sort haha
The curse of being too good to learn how to DI properly because you never get hit ...

 

[Big_R]

I had the same question about shine fire invincibilty. I've played around and got hit but I always figured I wasn't doing it well heh. Frame wise it may be. How that translates to the game could be diff.

That's why i was a bit hesitant to say to do it cuz of the element of risk...and also why i mentioned the timing of it. But it mayyy be invincible. need a frame genius in here.

also if u need to get to the edge in a pinch reverse laser edge cancel seems fastest from far away and it's not that hard. just a spacing issue.

altho if u mess up ur off stage....gg... yea my recommendations are more on the reckless side haha. prolly shouldnt spread such dangerous ideas buuut just throwin stuff at the wall see what sticks

 

[Bl@ckChris]

closer to the curse of living in an *** region that doesn't understand the game at a high enough level to hit him consistently...

but close enough.

edit: wenbo, both reverse up B, and neutral B, and i think even nair are scary enough to not really want to "just DI away" especially with falco's recovery.

 

[~Twitch~]

closer to the curse of living in an *** region that doesn't understand the game at a high enough level to hit him consistently...

In short: I do it because I don't always think sometimes and I'm not comboed by competent comboers often.

i'm working on it!

go away

 

[Wenbobular]

Like seriously, who reverse up-b's ... this isn't PAL, our Marths want to spike because that actually kills people
Do you know who up-b kills? Nobody, because everyone likes to DI in on Fairs anyway!

Neutral B has so much startup and Nair is 2 hits ... if you can't react to that then ... well ...

Falco is heavy as fuq and his recovery isn't nearly as bad as people make it out to be ... you shouldn't be scared of DIing away from stuff

At the very least you have to make Marths mix in upair when they're Fair comboing you or you're just going to get Ken combo'd all day ...

Also I wanted to post what I did because at one point PP super DI'd in on a Marth neutral air in the middle of the stage, proceeded to DI in for the rest of the combo and got spiked <_<

 

[Bl@ckChris]

i feel like neutral b isn't really that much slower than fair...it has a lot more cooldown, but i thought the startup was comparable...and i feel like if you're DIing out on a neutral B combo ender offstage because you're afraid of ken combos, things just won't end well. i might be misguided though.

there are reasons for all kinds of DI. it's all about adjustments and realizing what kind of combo's your opponents are going for. the current metagame seems to have the "be afraid, super survival DI" thing going on, which makes ken combos easy. if we look at this and say, oh no, we should just be DIing out, then eventually marths will just hit a couple fairs and neutral B, and then sadness may ensue.

basically don't just assume that paper is better than rock cause scissors still exist. even if most people aren't using them.

 

[Wenbobular]

Stats on Neutral B
Time to get to charging: 11 frames
Hit (from release of B): 5-10

Stats on F-air
Total: 33
Hit: 4-7

So ... 16 frame move vs 4 frame move ... not to mention Marth's body turns purple
Like seriously? <_<

As I was saying ... only legitimate aerial finisher, up-b

When Marths start doing that, people will have a reason to not hold away from a Marth in the air
Until then though ...

 

[Warhawk]

Ken combos finished with up-b instead of dair still look sweet too lol.

 

[Wenbobular]

They also do a terrible job of killing people if they're west coasting

 

[Warhawk]

That's what usually true of anything with Marth unless its a tippered dair or fsmash lol.

 

[Wenbobular]

Which is why I'm saying Marth is not a scary character and the default DI away on everything except telegraphed Fsmashes is generally very safe

 

[Lovage]

dude, does anyone have a copy of the ORIGINAL shades of falco?

i know someone still has it on their ipod or some ****, holla atcha guala


edit: da one with this song
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybQB_W3AtX4

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

dude, does anyone have a copy of the ORIGINAL shades of falco?

i know someone still has it on their ipod or some ****, holla atcha guala


edit: da one with this song
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybQB_W3AtX4

http://www.veoh.com/watch/v17263979GNa52a3G?h1=Shades+Of+Falco

Speaking of which, does anyone have "Papa Johns is Delicious"? It was a shoddily made PC chris combo video but I watched it a ton back in the day and it was taken off youtube :[

 

[Lovage]

yesss good hustle stab good hustle

this vid is a CLASSIK

 

[Dr Peepee]

not sure what to respond to all of this with.

can anyone tell me if Falco can invincible firestall over and over? I know Fox can(thanks KK) but some people said Falco's is different and I'm not sure if there's enough leeway to make Falco's edgestall worth it....

I'll try to work on my vs Marth DI wenbo. I tell people to go out more but I guess I forget a lot/when it counts.

 

[knightpraetor]

going out vs marth is really good as long as they don't tend to use shield breaker coming back..even if you get below marth to bair him off stage shieldbreaker often wins..but that's when you mix up getting into range and then jumping to the ledge and then he has 10 million years of lag while he's falling

just don't insert too much risky stuff against players you don't need it against PP...otherwise you may drop sets that you shouldn't

 

[Wenbobular]

He was talking about DIing away

 

[SSBMLahti]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8p5EBaGjRIw&feature=g-all-u

****in' Chops!

 

[Zoler]

I think falcos up-b works the same

 

[Bl@ckChris]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8p5EBaGjRIw&feature=g-all-u

****in' Chops!

quoted for my scared *** ganon lol.

still surprised how close i came game 2 lol.

chops is pretty good.

 

[TheSaudiMizer]

PP, one thing about your edgeguarding on sheik was you didn't seem willing to try and hit her offstage, you just seemed willing to let them up-b onto the stage everytime. But there were situations where you probably could've landed a back air where he got too close to the ledge. Also, do you ever try wavelanding from the edge and getting in an fsmash? It probably opens sheik up to up b to the ledge, but the payoff for landing a fsmash seems pretty good. In fact you could probably mind game people to grabbing the edge when you don't commit if you leave "holes" or escapes from your setups.

 

[Divinokage]

quoted for my scared *** ganon lol.

still surprised how close i came game 2 lol.

chops is pretty good.

Hey you used the side-B trick to punish aerial at 0:55, ya! =D Though I think your main weakness from what i see is that you do not punish fast enough or take the opportunities fast enough to kill him or hit him.

 

[Deleted member]

****in' Chops!

lmao he didn't even aim half of his attacks. "i just want to press B today. lots and lots of B"

edit: this set isn't tournament legal, winning by time is not a win condition as the timer is off.

edit 2:

PP, one thing about your edgeguarding on sheik was you didn't seem willing to try and hit her offstage, you just seemed willing to let them up-b onto the stage everytime. But there were situations where you probably could've landed a back air where he got too close to the ledge. Also, do you ever try wavelanding from the edge and getting in an fsmash? It probably opens sheik up to up b to the ledge, but the payoff for landing a fsmash seems pretty good. In fact you could probably mind game people to grabbing the edge when you don't commit if you leave "holes" or escapes from your setups.

for the most part, trying not to hit her off stage is the correct decision, especially against mew2king's sheik. why forfeit positional advantage? at that point he can just go through the motions to ensure his kill (take edge, dair to dair kill or something). it's better to be patient and to accept the freebie than it is to put yourself in a risky position. when you see m2k throw needles mid-recovery, he's looking for a way to steal momentum and to protect the edge such that he can still grab it. kevin is correct to respect the needles if they are placed well.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

oh snap, i need to go back to jersey and replay it.

 

[TheSaudiMizer]

Well I'm all for making m2k up b onto the stage as much as possible, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't attempt a non guaranteed hit given a chance. Like if he just attempts a bair, but m2k makes it back onto the ledge safely, you can say he shouldn't have attempted it when he should've protected his position. But what if he hit? I don't really think you should play a whole match picking the safest option. Sometimes the reward is worth the risk. Like I was asking, if PP knows m2k is going to up b onto the stage, instead of doing a normal get up from the ledge to protect a teleport straight to the ledge, wavedashing on and getting ready for a fsmash. The more he has to push m2k off with just a back air or settle with getting some hit, the more chances m2k has to regain position with needles or escaping.

 

[unknown522]

Lol I would've made a long *** post or dug up an old post, about edgeguarding sheik, but m2k sent me a PM telling me not to stop giving advice to PP, otherwise he won't come to impulse.

Apparently I'm making him depressed and stuff........

-_-

 

[Bl@ckChris]

not sure what kind of bair you're talking about. i think kevin did enough "not guarunteed" things and enough patience as far as his edgeguard. the thing about kevin "knowing" that he'll up b to the stage is that he doesn't know. sure, you can make a hard read and charge an fsmash and have it be reacted to and punished with a backthrow and death, or you might kill him one rep of the edgeguard sooner.

only thing i wish i saw more of were rising dairs from the edge. i feel like that is fast enough to be able to see him land on stage and still hit, rather than getting up too early and have him hit the edge.

also, i imagined something cool involving a shine turn waveland onstage into dtilt. i think that'd be some hot ****.

edit: lol NC BABY i'm bout to look through yo old **** unknown. I'M LETTIN MAH DUDE KNOW WHATS UP. CATFISH NYUKKAAAAA

 

[TheSaudiMizer]

Just talking about when PP was on the ledge, there were a few times M2k got close enough he could drop and come up with a rising bair and hit him. And yeah I realized knowing was the wrong word there, but sheik has to do it a lot so it's not really too much of a gamble. I dont think he needs to do a charged f smash or anything just get on the stage in time to hit him with it. It seems with sheiks lag it wouldn't be too hard to get an f smash in instead of hopping off the ledge and hitting a bair.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

oh...sheik has too much invincibility to deal with her up B that way, in my opinion. maybe if you're suuuper early, but at that point you'd have to up b to get back, and if you do hit an invincible sheik, you're done for.

but yeah, rising bairs are cool if they're actually available.

 

[Dr Peepee]

REALLY M2K

REALLY

you're pushing me





*takes a moment


Anyway, my only thought currently is rising Bair because that's what Mango did at G2 to catch M2K drifting backwards to avoid rising Dair. Beyond that, I don't really have anything. I guess I'll study the videos and see what I can come up with.

 

[Sinji]

Hopes this helps PP's.


If she airdodges on you can ledge-hop past her and bair. Or you could hit forward on the stick, get up as if you were covering the vanish, and punish normally.

When Sheik is falling from above, and it's clear to you that she can make it back onto the stage without her up+b, GET OFF THE EDGE. Your priority is now to get beneath her. If the Sheik goes anywhere on stage, you'll already be there, and if she tries going back to the edge you can intercept with bair / ftilt / dash attack / fsmash / etc.

Pay attention to your opponent's method of recovery and react based on the limited options they have. Essentially, you should have a general idea in your head of how the edge-guard should play out before it happens. That's how big of an advantage grabbing the edge vs. Sheik is.

Grab the edge when sheik is recovering. Her going onstage is free Bairs for you. Free damage=free kills eventually. There's more complicated things involving minute spacing tricks of it and all but basically if you know that and that you can shine or hit her with moves like BAIR out of her beginning up-B frames(quite A few of them test it out) then you'll be fine learning the rest from experience.

 

[stingers]

i mean...you're not really supposed to actively edgeguard shiek...just hold the ledge and punish her when she gets onstage. why do anything else?

 

[kalamazhu]

someone wanna write me a flowchart for the sheik matchup?
also falco dittos

sorry man ur hopeless

 

[Moooose]

u get lost kzhu?

 

[KevinM]

I'm teaming with this guy ^^^ This weekend

General Strategies for teaming as

Fox/Falco

what are you falco players looking to do so that I will be able to react to them better this weekend?

 

[Dr Peepee]

@sheik edgeguard advice: yeah I'm not looking to actively do stuff(unless I can hit it), but m2k got on the edge too much because he'd go low and wait out my invincibility then up-B or reach me with a DJ aerial. I want to have him land on stage a lot and I'd be totally fine with that.

@teams stuff:

falco players tend to play singles in teams or shoot a lot of lasers in the middle of the stage(G$ special). work off of him or have him back you up.


I'm still learning teams but that's pretty basic stuff.

Not sure what exactly you're looking for so I'm gonna leave it there.

 

[stingers]

ohh i see. umm IDK then just wait by the ledge until hes getting close then grab it? you get free invincibility its just a matter of doing it at the right time...

 

[Dr Peepee]

nah he can delayed DJ to hit me out of it or up-B mixup to save himself

watch the videos when he's offstage I promise I'm not just making this up lol