PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[JPOBS]

i think falco is really weak from platforms, compared to being just about anywhere else. When I play vs falco's if they are on the platforms and I'm not, I feel like I'm in a good position to wreck him.

 

[Wenbobular]

Also that shield you put up afterward is bad because you hit Sheik out of the DJ. Don't do a move on a platform/at all if you aren't confident in it(that immediate shield made you look unconfident in your ability to get the hit there). You could have just dropped down instead of Bair'ing if it felt risky.

I just wanted to point out he actually meant to shield drop there (you can tell because his shield moves 45 degrees to the left) and he just missed it

Spoiler

like a ****ing noob!!! gotta step up your tech skill Bones

 

[leffen]

wasnt bones the guy who flamed me for missing 2 shield drops in a set out of like 30 lol

 

[Wenbobular]

It was friendly flaming I'm sure
I still can't shield drop going to the right it's depressing

 

[ShroudedOne]

It seems like, for Mango, platforms open up an entirely new avenue for controlling people. It's probably because I main Peach, but when Falco is on a platform, it's kind of threatening, not so much because of what he can do from them, but what I can't do to him.'

It works for Mango because he can apply tight pressure without them, so he can afford to mix in platform movement to confuse/make people think he's backing off. I just think it works well for him, not sure about whether or not it works for Falco (agaisnt Peach/Puff it's probably really good, cause they jump slow).

 

[genkaku]

It seems like, for Mango, platforms open up an entirely new avenue for controlling people. It's probably because I main Peach, but when Falco is on a platform, it's kind of threatening, not so much because of what he can do from them, but what I can't do to him.'
It works for Mango because he can apply tight pressure without them, so he can afford to mix in platform movement to confuse/make people think he's backing off. I just think it works well for him, not sure about whether or not it works for Falco (agaisnt Peach/Puff it's probably really good, cause they jump slow).

I don't think it's supposed to be a psuedo-back off. That's kind of stupid. It's not fast enough to do that. Functionally, breaking out of pressure and onto a platform is a way to reset things while still maintaining a good position. I use it if the pressure is getting too intense and it would be better to take the platform momentarily than to get hit with something. Plus it's flashy and awesome.
I think that platforms are too situational to make overarching statements. They're complicated and most stage layouts make them more of an intricate variable to more complex issues than a central proponent to any of them.
Mango comes up because he's good at taking advantage of situational things that just plain don't work all the time. He has a more intuitive sense for what works in quirky situations, unlike say PP who likes to look for what is always good in a more verbal (vs intuitive) way (like what umbreon is always talking about). I bet you if mango tried to critique matches he wouldn't be nearly as good as PP is because mango is more the type that would say, well this option is right and I just kinda knew it would make this happen, while PP would say this option is right because it does blank, I tested it out yesterday. They would both be able to explain it, but explaining it verbally is one step more removed for mango. It's kind of hard to verbalize but I get talked to a lot about intelligence vs intuitive approaches at art school, so it's easy for me to see here.
There are certain times and conditions where taking a platform is going to be great because using that vertical spacing option is better than using a horizontal one. However, there are more times and conditions where it is the equivalent of handing your opponent stage control or even your stock. Part of why the times that it is good work is because vertical spacing is advanced enough that we aren't as used to thinking about or dealing directly with it.
Like you said, they're a great tool to use when you can't be punished for using them. They're situated in such a way that you can do a crapton of stuff from them relatively quickly (but not so fast that it can't be anticipated or reacted to) so the best uses end up looking like you're taking a great position with a risk (like edgeguarding or pressure) and removing a lot of the risk without losing your good position.
You use them when it works and get the **** off of them when it doesn't, 'cause it's a two way street.

That ended up longer than I intended, haha

 

[Deleted member]

platforms are MUCH more abusable in the current meta for smash than any other area of innovation because they offer the best situational momentum shifts, and subsequently the best area to expand your aggression and punishment game. what do I mean by that?

my conversation with kevin revealed 2 means of approach for pressure, active and passive. active means you go for it, passive means you don't. with active, you gain the ability for a stronger punish, but you also accept the risk of losing that momentum if it fails. this is an acceptable risk for the most part because it's implied that you only attack from a position of advantage, and you are pressing that advantage. with passive, you miss the stronger punish, but you also lower the risk to lose the position of advantage. in my opinion, passive is better, but i understand both approaches and they are probably equal. knowing which to use in each situation requires finesse and experience.

go back to platforms (or edges). when attacking to a platform from a position of advantage, you are still free to choose active or passive pressure. most players HEAVILY favor active, because the risk of momentum loss perceived is much lower. THIS LINE OF THINKING IS STRICTLY FALSE. disregarding technical proficiency, you are given the same defensive options OOS that you are on the ground with no nearby edges, except +2 more options: you can go OFF the edge from shield via WD, or you can drop directly through it. both changes of positioning offer new angles to catch a lagged or poorly positioned opponent, and the increase of options adds to your flexibility in choosing the correct one, dictated by your ability as a player. both also allow you to gain position without even attacking by being grounded faster. the ability to go from a bad position to a good position IMMEDIATELY is the momentum shift, and the dynamics of it encourage your opponent to misplay the pressure moreso than other similar scenarios. the options near the edge and on platforms are hugely misunderstood or unknown completely and offer huge benefits for the first talented player to abuse them.

my current theory on sheik vs falco is that sheik only has positional advantage when edge guarding. my new strategy is to sit on a platform, bait an aerial attack, and to gain positional advantage by being grounded before falco is. i've had mixed results, but it's new territory for me too.

 

[unknown522]

There is nothing wrong with being on platforms with falco. It opens up another direction to attack from, or even start pressure.

Also these 2 facts: d-air beats CC and also that he can laser while coming down makes it even more powerful. He can avoid getting spaced on and avoid being DD -> grabbed by shooting them.

Ofc this can be beaten by PSing, but then that means that they have to sorta guess and also not commit and a few other things

 

[Deleted member]

if i was going to waste my time playing a video game i would rather farm rune bottles in gaoracchia forest than learning how to powershield*

* - at apex i PS camped kou's falco with zelda on FD and timed him out of a match. felt awesome. lost match 2 trying to replicate match 1 lol

 

[ShroudedOne]

I didn't say that he used them ONLY as a "psuedo-backoff." But I think that has some part to do with it. Pressuring them passively, rather than actively.

*sigh*

 

[genkaku]

I didn't say that he used them ONLY as a "psuedo-backoff." But I think that has some part to do with it. Pressuring them passively, rather than actively.
\

Well yeah, I was just using your comment as a base to branch off some thinking, but I have to disagree to a point. It definitely is passive pressure, but there's no way that it is going to confuse a good player or make them think that he's backing off. It's a very real transition, not a kind of trick. The point is that he *is* backing off at least to the degree that he is temporarily switching to passive pressure. It's like cutting your losses without actually taking any losses and still putting yourself in a great position, not mindgaming your opponent with "I'm finished with pressure now- JK not really here's some more dairs LOOOOOOOOOOL"

 

[Seartu]

I hope this isn't out of place or too general but I was hoping I could get some hints on just applying the shine? A few habits have carried over from when I played melee as a kid and one of them is thinking of the shine as just a reflector. I have been lurking these forums and have been happilly bouncing along with my SHL for a couple weeks and practicing my teching.

But, I recognize the value of the shine but I am terrible at using it. Traditionally my GTFO has been my downsmash and I'd like to really start using the shine but with its tiny hitbox I seem to miss often and even with decent JCs I seem to get punished consistently.

I know this is a basic question and it may just require a "practice noob" response but I'm hoping someone had a similar experience at some point?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Until someone is powershielding virtually ever laser that comes their way, powershielding is overrated.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Oh, ok. I understand now, and you're right. At top level play, you're not really going to be confusing people (he still makes this happen just by virtue of being Mango, but I see your point now).

 

[unknown522]

Until someone is powershielding virtually ever laser that comes their way, powershielding is overrated.

ice's PSing was pretty ridiculous. It has a lot of potential

 

[Sinji]

Today I thought about Falco and platforms for a little bit. I decided he's only good for going up there as a bait at neutral, or when controlling someone(check out Mango vs anyone by the edge lol, I know I saw him do this a lot vs Taj in their set at G2 because I watched it recently), or for resetting to neutral when under pressure(quick FH+Dair to secure his landing and position).

I noticed that too. Its a safe tool to use especially against sheik. He also did this a lot against KirbyKaze at apex. I remember you doing this vs your set with Armada at pound V.

Ediit: cant sleep

 

[Armada]

Until someone is powershielding virtually ever laser that comes their way, powershielding is overrated.

How?

Because people are lazy or don't know how to use it?
Something is overrated if people say it is way better then it is. Im not sure if that is what you think but if you does I can clearly tell you that's not the case.

I really wanna see some faster chars use it cause it puts Falco in a really bad position a lot of times because of the grab after a powershield (then Falco is dead). Powershield is by far one of the most underrated techs in this game.

 

[Wenbobular]

[COLLAPSE="stuff"]I hope this isn't out of place or too general but I was hoping I could get some hints on just applying the shine? A few habits have carried over from when I played melee as a kid and one of them is thinking of the shine as just a reflector. I have been lurking these forums and have been happilly bouncing along with my SHL for a couple weeks and practicing my teching.

But, I recognize the value of the shine but I am terrible at using it. Traditionally my GTFO has been my downsmash and I'd like to really start using the shine but with its tiny hitbox I seem to miss often and even with decent JCs I seem to get punished consistently.

I know this is a basic question and it may just require a "practice noob" response but I'm hoping someone had a similar experience at some point?[/COLLAPSE]

Aerial -> shine pressure on shield
Shinegrab
Waveshine combos
Shine Bair with invincibility to edgeguard people below the stage
Etc

I would rather buffer rolls spotdodges and jumps instead of trying to shine my way out of techchases for reasons you mentioned

 

[Meneks]

so bad..

Matches of me losing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pG07UUi0rhE

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

How?

Because people are lazy or don't know how to use it?
Something is overrated if people say it is way better then it is. Im not sure if that is what you think but if you does I can clearly tell you that's not the case.

I really wanna see some faster chars use it cause it puts Falco in a really bad position a lot of times because of the grab after a powershield (then Falco is dead). Powershield is by far one of the most underrated techs in this game.

That was probably the wrong way to describe what I felt about powershielding by saying overrated. I simply feel PSing is something a number of people believe they can pull off repeatedly based off of a like a couple matches, but they can't duplicate it often enough to be used proficiently in tournament. PSing would be extremely beneficial and add an extra tool against Falco, but only if someone could do it with a really high degree of success. Someone PSing lasers with low success is like getting lucky.

Crouching under high lasers and PSing those I think the best anyone currently has come to having a high success with PSing lasers. You go from a 1 frame window to like a 10 frame window to PS. But once you start getting lower lasers or a bulky character that's no longer helpful.

In short, I don't think there is anyone who can PS lasers often enough yet that it makes a lasting impact.

 

[giovannig22311]

hey falco thread i had a question, what do u guys recomend, a secondry for falco, do u guys think fox is? i mean there alot alike, its just i play falco nothin but falco and i dont wanta get stale lol you kno? i need sum advice plz thanks

 

[Rubyiris]

A local player who used to train with me could legit power shield like 90% of the time, if not more. He quit back in 2010 though.

Until you're super amazing just stick to falco. Also because falco is stupid and broken my honest advice is to use whoever the **** you feel like.

 

[JPOBS]

the problem with using fox as a secondary is you slowly start to like fox more cuz he's better so u just switch mains.

/speakingfromexperience

 

[Divinokage]

the problem with using fox as a secondary is you slowly start to like fox more cuz he's better so u just switch mains.

/speakingfromexperience

No way, I don't think I would ever do that.

 

[leffen]

With like 5 min warmup I can honestly powershield ~ 95% of all lasers with Marth vs Armadas falco (which is really good, mixes them up and is aggressive). With good reactions and a little practice its REALLY easy.

Its not at all hard, and the only reason people are bad at it is because they try to read the lasers (it should be 100% reaction) and then get bodied by fake lasers etc. People are really unaware on how powershielding works (lol 1 frame timing?) and how characters hurtboxes work/change during their **** >_>

but whatever, I've just realized that people prefer too be lazy and just whine instead of learning to powershield >_>

 

[Rubyiris]

There's a million falcos here so. I just practice reaction power shield. I get better at it little by little :D

I prefer to.practice stuff mid game. I hrt ***** at first, but it means I can do stuff in a tournament situation quicker.

 

[Bones0]

Powershielding is amazing, but it seems really misunderstood. If you are just running around trying to PS every laser in the first place it's dumb. Empty hops and jumping over low lasers beats people who rely on PSing pretty hard. Instead it should be used only when you can absolutely capitalize on it and when the Falco is getting lazy with the lasers. If you play an entire match trying to grab, you're not going to have much success because they will stop shielding and attack more. It doesn't mean grabbing is bad, just that it is only good to a certain level, and then it becomes more detrimental than helpful. I think the same can be said about PSing (or almost any tactic, really).

 

[JPOBS]

95% leffen?

vids or it didnt happen.

 

[knightpraetor]

Powershielding is amazing, but it seems really misunderstood. If you are just running around trying to PS every laser in the first place it's dumb. Empty hops and jumping over low lasers beats people who rely on PSing pretty hard. Instead it should be used only when you can absolutely capitalize on it and when the Falco is getting lazy with the lasers. If you play an entire match trying to grab, you're not going to have much success because they will stop shielding and attack more. It doesn't mean grabbing is bad, just that it is only good to a certain level, and then it becomes more detrimental than helpful. I think the same can be said about PSing (or almost any tactic, really).

This quoted for supertruth...everyone gets this idea that because people aren't sitting on the ground powershielding every laser that they can't powershield.

The reality is if someone is actually trying to powershield all of the lasers they often lose out in other aspects of the matchup...probably because they are playing too reactively and aren't applying much pressure of their own..

obviously if the falco sits down and shoots lasers at me from range i'm going to start trying to powershield, but lasers are rather sparse in the current falco marth metagame. They're definitely there, and I really want to be able to powershield the run off dJ on with lasers since marth doesn't have other good options for punishing it from range...but assuming i moved forward and assume he's going offstage to laser back on and i'm wrong, then i could eat some aggression in the face..

the two main reasons people don't powershield nonstop isn't a lack of technical proficiency but because you can't be in the air and powershield and because if you're on the ground, it's more difficult to powershield while dashing away (not sure why that is my guess is cause the shield is angled away due to the dash)

i was around 80% back when i was practicing it every day..it's definitely doable, but the effect it had really wasn't that impressive...honestly leffen showing off vids of him powershielding 95% doesn't mean jack to me...if he does 95% powershielding while taking matches off pp or mango..then i'll start believing that i should actually be attempting to powershield all the time. not sure who the equivalent top players for falco are in europe..but i'll be content with tourney vids in which he powershields every laser....however, i think he'll find that just powershielding occasionally and playing normal will do a lot better in tourney

 

[unknown522]

*Awaits leffen's disagreement post*

 

[Bones0]

Yeah, you make a good point when you add that Falco vs. Marth isn't even a laser-heavy matchup in the first place. I think if players with other mains adopted PSing as a tool they would see even more benefit from it than Marth, but it would still be in the same fashion. It would be an occasional option, not a strategy to rely on or base your spacing around. I have seen a few Peach and spacies players PS, but for some arbitrary reason it's just ridiculously popular with Marth.

 

[unknown522]

bones your critique is coming up. I have nothing to do atm and have connection to the internet

edit: nvm. I failed terribly and don't feel like re-doing it.

Maybe later.

edit 2:

Vs Btree:

Spoiler

0:11 – When you get the combo, you made it end prematurely by doing d-air at that percent when he wasn’t in shine stun. That could’ve also gotten you punished as well since he landed with no stun. Using up moves, or b-air/f-air would’ve probably been better.

0:13 – 0:23 – That was some good shine approaches. Sadly, you didn’t follow-up on them.

0:26 – There was no point in grabbing the edge on that edgeguard, since he had already started his airdodge. Peach has problems getting through spacies that just b-air when she’s not in a position to go over them. If you play it right, then the only way on is by hitting you with f-air, or ledge attack (but that’s also kinda your fault if it happens). Still, because of where he airdodged, d-air would’ve killed in that position.

0:58 – I dunno how you let that turnip hit you. Mistake I guess? After that, you shielded his dash attack and you did a turnaround laser. I thought you were gonna get ***** for it, but whatever works I guess.

1:03 – That was a good combo but you hesitated on the platform chase. You could’ve done anything from hitting the missed tech, to going under the platform and following whatever he does, to even SH/instant DJ over the getup attack. You could’ve also CC’d it and f-smashed or something.
Another cool thing you could’ve done is charge your d-smash. Falco’s invincible feet while charging can go over peach’s and some other characters’ getup attack. I haven’t implemented this into my game yet, but I know it works.

1:14 – that combo you did was good, but you could’ve dropped through the platform and d-air’d again when he fell off the top platform. Either you would’ve hit him for doing anything aside from taking a defensive option and even if he did then you would’ve had him above you.

1:16 – He did a bad float height and also tried to f-air you. You could’ve hit him with any aerial instead of doing that laser.

1:23 – that was the perfect time to LHDL or LWD -> something (I’mma start calling Ledge wavedash that from now on).

1:28 – I’m pretty sure you could’ve made it back if you either aimed lower, or did a firebird and went diagonal (up or down. I don’t think this guy would’ve covered it TBH).

1:40 – I knew you were gonna miss that edgeguard based on the positioning. Either if you waited longer, or dropped lower then it probably would’ve worked. But yeah, I think you were going for that ledge re-grab thing.

1:56 – SH AC b-air would’ve covered multiple options and covered if he were to airdodge. Following that, I dunno why you were DDing on the platform like that when you should’ve been low to the ground to prevent him from getting on the stage. Well, you could’ve dropped through and hit him as he was coming onto the stage, but you waited up there for a while.
After he did that parasol, you could’ve SH b-air/d-air for the kill.

2:13 – You should’ve u-tilted instead of doing that shine on the top platform. The only way that shine off the top was going to work was if he had DI’d poorly.

2:23 – 2:28 – IMO, n-air would’ve been better when you hit him out of his float, but still you got a pretty good combo out of that d-air so it was worth it. When you did the f-tilt in the combo, f-smash would’ve worked. You could’ve also gone for a d-air platform trap.
Anyways, you hit him with f-tilt and then hit him with a laser on the way down. You could’ve hit him with something instead of dropping through the platform with another laser (n-air/d-air/f-smash/f-tilt/etc).

2:39 – good edgehog.

2:44 – you could’ve shined oos on that n-air when he went on the platform. Or shield grabbed I guess.

2:45 – That sucks. Lol

2:55 – Instead of shooting that laser when you came down from the top platform, you could’ve started a combo with weak n-air/reverse b-air -> shine since he was at low percent.

2:56 – could’ve shined oos on that n-air.


Ending notes:
- You could use more grab. U-throw is usually your best bet. Throwing them off the stage is good too. Some examples of where you could’ve grabbed are:
0:09. When you hit the laser
1:33. “ “ “’
2:10. When you shot his shield
2:57 – 3:00. There were at least 3 chances to grab him.

- It looks like you’re trying to force rolls a few times, but he never rolled. Some examples (I think) are:
0:09.
1:33
2:57 – 3:00

- There were some times where you were throwing out random f-smashes.

- Something that's hard to explain. Not sure how to put it.....They way you position yourself and also the amount of time that you spend whenever you DD, makes it look difficult to punish some things that he is doing, simply because you are too far away. I think it may have been from a fear of her dash attack (cuz you were about that length away a lot of times), but even when he was in the air though you did it sometimes.

 

[genkaku]

I thought that the popularity of marth PSing had to do with his low crouch?

 

[Bones0]

Crouching under lasers to PS isn't even that common. His dash being low can sometimes help, but you can't rely on that as a means of powershielding anyway.

@Unknown
Thanks, I'll check it out when I get back from work.

 

[Beat!]

leffen is really good at powershielding.

 

[Bones0]

Parrying skills seem to transfer nicely.

@Unknown

Thanks again for the critique. Quick question: what did you mean when you said "dair platform trap"? Do just mean comboing dair into dair, and is there a certain time when this is better or worse than alternatives like nairing? The ending notes help a lot. I was definitely worried about dash attack, but I'm also just not used to being able to get that close to people when DDing. I'm probably going to do some hardcore grab training. I only attempted 2 grabs, and landed 1 of them... This has been a long-standing problem so hopefully I can just start incorporating it properly.

 

[Armada]

If Im a trust worthy source you should trust me when I agree with Leffen when he says 95%.
I actually played that MU with him not that long ago and Falco is way worse once people learn this. Leffen is not even close to perfect when it comes to useing it perfect (he dosen't even play Marth) but it still is hella stupid.

 

[Beat!]

Yeah, I usually like Falco vs Marth. Even on FD it's still pretty fun. But playing against leffen's Marth on FD is just a pain in the ***.

 

[Rush]

Random question: What causes that floaty state after you shine someone during a combo that allows them to escape/counter?

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Stale moves.

It typically happens when you shine someone when they are knocked down.