PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

You didn't have to dissolve that post...

 

[choknater]

good thread title change! makes it look much more official

 

[Dark Hart]

I don't like the name change

2 reasons for me to be mad at you now

 

[Dr Peepee]

Quick little blurb about pressure and myself:

Most of my "pressure" has always been somewhat passive, spacing things ranged outside of someone whom I forced into shield. However, sometimes this means I just wait for reactions pointlessly and end up losing pressure when one no longer feels threatened.

I don't believe this is ALWAYS the best way to handle pressure situations, or maybe the best in a given scenario on average possibly.

Sometimes, people just don't want to retaliate right away. They have been knocked out of quick attacks and now are content to sit, wait, and react to what you do. Why shouldn't I take advantage of this fear right away? I should totally go on their shield and make them worry if that's what they're opening themselves up to do.

This is, of course, not always the best thing to do. BUT, it is better than what I used to do, and a lot of newer people seem to do in other ways(sometimes on a general level), which is overrespect options instead of limit certain ones or really understand how the player is responding to what you/the opponent are doing.


Food for thought. =)


green one knows

 

[Deleted member]

Food for thought. =)

I think "mindset" tricks worse players into thinking that they can improve in false ways that don't really help them or leads players to over-rate any actual progress that they do make. I had a rant recently on "playing with confidence". I tell my peers that I think mindset is a lie and that player decision-making should be considered an in-game skill and not an extraneous one like mindset would suggest. In the strictest sense of the idea, how you win is decided by the buttons you press, not how you feel while you press them. I saw something that captures this idea pretty well:

"Aptitude, not attitude."

Think about it. We can talk more about the idea if you want, text me or something. I just thought you'd like the new perspective. I'm merely introducing the concept at a surface level before someone post-2007 comes in says something stupid.

 

[Squirt]

I like what you are saying umbreon. Every good matchup I see comes down to the choices. I feel like ssbm is game of finding what options you have, and destroying the options of your enemy. Like chess.

 

[Habefiet]

I'm merely introducing the concept at a surface level before someone post-2007 comes in says something stupid.

We love you too. Armada rockin' dat post-2007 join date. PP fairly narrowly making the cut. I find what you're saying interesting, and would enjoy it if you elaborated a bit as to how it can apply to actual process of improvement, but evidently I am a lowly creature not worth your older and wiser time.

EDIT: Tales of Symphonia da bess

 

[Deleted member]

I am a lowly creature not worth your older and wiser time.

Finally someone gets it.

 

[Habefiet]

Finally someone gets it.

Please. I'm glowing at your praise.

In all seriousness, elaboration on your point would be compelling and would be appreciated.

 

[Corigames]

edit: ruby, she hot?

Yes.
10namesearches

 

[choknater]

hmm i think too much about this game and don't play enough.

i wanna just sit down with the ranked players in my region and GRIND

 

[Dr Peepee]

I had to theorycraft the Samus matchup *shrug*

Umbreon's conversation with me ended up with neither of us really relinquishing our opinion on the matter, but rather reinforcing to me that, while mindset is important, it is always most important to play the game first and foremost. That is to say, always focus hard on keeping center stage, cut off options, etc, THEN play the player more or less.

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

I had to theorycraft the Samus matchup *shrug*

Umbreon's conversation with me ended up with neither of us really relinquishing our opinion on the matter, but rather reinforcing to me that, while mindset is important, it is always most important to play the game first and foremost. That is to say, always focus hard on keeping center stage, cut off options, etc, THEN play the player more or less.

wtf man i just use happy feet and win

 

[Deleted member]

I had to theorycraft the Samus matchup *shrug*

Umbreon's conversation with me ended up with neither of us really relinquishing our opinion on the matter, but rather reinforcing to me that, while mindset is important, it is always most important to play the game first and foremost. That is to say, always focus hard on keeping center stage, cut off options, etc, THEN play the player more or less.

again, the game never changes, but your opponent may surprise you. i think it's important to get good sleep, diet well, and to round out non-smash activities to keep your mind from becoming stale, but yes basically you should play the game first. the game is a system of limits that you can work within. trying to understand and predict any being with the spark and essence of animation is certainly harder to manage and defeat.

i'll post more tomorrow when i have the luxury of a computer for more than a few minutes. if kevin is okay with it, i'll post our text messages back and forth as well. the insight they provide may add more to the point of views. regardless, i more or less agree with kevin, we differ only in negligible ways as far as i can tell.

zhu: happy feet =/= gay bird feet.

 

[choknater]

I had to theorycraft the Samus matchup *shrug*

hey pp could i request that you talk about your thoughts on this for a bit?

i played darrell recently and i found many things about samus that surprised me. it's harder to get in on her than i realized, and there were a few things i couldn't punish that i thought i could.

 

[Dr Peepee]

again, the game never changes, but your opponent may surprise you. i think it's important to get good sleep, diet well, and to round out non-smash activities to keep your mind from becoming stale, but yes basically you should play the game first. the game is a system of limits that you can work within. trying to understand and predict any being with the spark and essence of animation is certainly harder to manage and defeat.

i'll post more tomorrow when i have the luxury of a computer for more than a few minutes. if kevin is okay with it, i'll post our text messages back and forth as well. the insight they provide may add more to the point of views. regardless, i more or less agree with kevin, we differ only in negligible ways as far as i can tell.

zhu: happy feet =/= gay bird feet.

Yup I agree. And sure the texts would be cool to post up haha.

hey pp could i request that you talk about your thoughts on this for a bit?

i played darrell recently and i found many things about samus that surprised me. it's harder to get in on her than i realized, and there were a few things i couldn't punish that i thought i could.

Sure, what exactly do you want me to say/touch on?

My outline for the procedure was based on the very little video footage I had, the little theory I had talked with Umbreon, and how I envisioned neutral position should look. Since Umbreon critiqued my matches with Hugs from Pound 4, those 2 things became one in the same. He essentially told me to avoid being shield stabbed low by Dsmash and to quit getting Up-B'd OOS I think. I felt like it was more frustrating and much more than that, but when I re-watched my matches with Hugs I felt like I would've done much better if I had just kept those 2 things in mind.

Honestly, keeping a few things in mind goes a super long way. The way M2K relays his information to people when he wants them to do well(when he was hounding me about upsmash OOS/etc for those Falco dittos you all remember) is exactly the right length of information to retain when considering a matchup going into a match or starting your analysis of a matchup from. Things like I either need to super delay my aerials, space moves more, or grab more because of up-B OOS branches out and lets me consider mixups.

From there, I can consider how my opponent will perceive this gameplay change, and what they can do if I stop trying to pressure or simply over respect up-B OOS(example). Most likely, they will WD back because I will be safely pressuring their front. This leads me to believe that I can force Samus backwards so long as I can get her to shield. This means I get to take free stage. This means that Samus will be forced backward until she has to commit forward. What will she commit with? Probably a WD forward move. What else could she do? She could WD back Dsmash or CC punish. She most likely won't jump because Samus sucks in the air. So on and so on.

If you'll notice, things started to fall into place once I decided how stage positioning would work. The more you work this from a perspective related to raw character traits and abilities(hitboxs and mobility are examples of these unchangeable character traits), the more your gameplan can be shaped in a relatively stable way. After that, you DO need to play people, but only to ascertain how exactly your theory stacks up to reality. You need to be shown any options/choices you weren't aware of, and how the use of those traits could change your perspective of the matchup and how to handle it.


Funnily enough, Plup showed me Samus liked jumping somewhat often. He DJ wavelanded on platforms and quickly left them, which is too fast to punish unless you get a head start. That of course can be punished. I had to go back and re-evaluate how to control stage to account for how Samus could move OOS while playing Plup, but now my knowledge of the matchup and its options are more solid than they were before. I didn't have to wade through exactly when I could avoid up-B OOS or not, and I knew more or less how he'd try to fight me and where. It was just a matter of executing what I thought was good and making sure he didn't get to do what he wanted to.


If you wanted to know about Samus-related things, you'll have to ask lol. The only other thing I could say without being asked is I decided to work Dair a ton because CC is a super pain and I didn't really need to try and Nair to catch Samus OOS because the CC death combo wasn't worth the risk and Samus' are quite intelligent in their shield so it's not worth challenging(Samus' are almost always CC'ing anyway lol). I just spaced close so my Dair could be threatening but not always close enough to be tilted and tried to force Samus backward so she would be cornered. Eventually I forced Samus back but then played with my spacing so that DJ waveland trick could be countered on reaction so he felt less inclined to do it/move forward with it, which is great for me.

 

[choknater]

wow thanks that was more than adequate. that is a great thought process for fighting her.

thanks for sharing

 

[Dr Peepee]

Haha okay man. Glad I could help! =)

 

[choknater]

as for samus jumping, darrell is pretty proactive with his aerials and finds ways to make them safe. had a lot of innovative use of fair, etc

but i think next time i play him, i will just keep that throught process in mind and learn how to defeat the matchup. those are the same kinds of thoughts i had for figuring out ic's vs jigglypuff/falco vs jigglypuff and she's now my easiest matchup. perhaps i should try approaching more trouble matchups this way.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah I recall that as well @ Fair. It may be helpful to consider that you may be able to set up a way to outrange his Fair in some way, or at the very least hard pressure his landing because Samus is slow in the air.

 

[giovannig22311]

Yeah I recall that as well @ Fair. It may be helpful to consider that you may be able to set up a way to outrange his Fair in some way, or at the very least hard pressure his landing because Samus is slow in the air.

whats up pp? i was wondering if u could give me tips for fighting fox? he too fast and falco doesnt seem fast enough,idk i get a lil discourged playin him any tips, and also for shiek?

 

[giovannig22311]

Yeah I recall that as well @ Fair. It may be helpful to consider that you may be able to set up a way to outrange his Fair in some way, or at the very least hard pressure his landing because Samus is slow in the air.

whats up pp? i was wondering if u could give me tips for fighting fox? he too fast and falco doesnt seem fast enough,idk i get a lil discourged playin him any tips for fighting fox, and also for shiek?

 

[Dr Peepee]

whats up pp? i was wondering if u could give me tips for fighting fox? he too fast and falco doesnt seem fast enough,idk i get a lil discourged playin him any tips, and also for shiek?

vs Fox, try to punish his landing lag. Keep yourself moving as much as possible in the meantime. Advancing/retreating SHLs tend to do a lot of good. CC Nairs to shine combo under 40%.


vs Sheik, you want to punish her for throwing out a move and get her offstage by any means necessary. Sheik is much more fun to fight when you get her offstage because she has to use that laggy up-B to go into you. Also, if you don't already, CC her tilts and dash attack for free punishes.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Hey there dirty sexy papa bear <3

edit:

I'm finding the dair more easily ground-techable the more I play vs Falcos so you should probably be going for f-smashes or w/e at medium percents and then see if you can fish for a bair rather than attempting the dair --> dair gimp (if they seem capable of teching the dair, that is; if they just ground themselves and get knocked over you can just dair --> d-smash and the angle + damage will eventually screw her over).

 

[giovannig22311]

vs Fox, try to punish his landing lag. Keep yourself moving as much as possible in the meantime. Advancing/retreating SHLs tend to do a lot of good. CC Nairs to shine combo under 40%.


vs Sheik, you want to punish her for throwing out a move and get her offstage by any means necessary. Sheik is much more fun to fight when you get her offstage because she has to use that laggy up-B to go into you. Also, if you don't already, CC her tilts and dash attack for free punishes.

thanks pp ill apply it

 

[choknater]

or perhaps, kk, the falco could go even further by purposely using dsmash/dair and expecting the ground tech and then chase

 

[KirbyKaze]

or perhaps, kk, the falco could go even further by purposely using dsmash/dair and expecting the ground tech and then chase

How do you chase out of d-smash at medium percents...?

I can see your point with dair but d-smash doesn't really work at medium %s if they hit the proper ground tech.

 

[choknater]

hm you are right

 

[unknown522]

Yes.
10namesearches

hahahahaha

 

[Bones0]

Critique me! :D

Some are labeled wrong on Twitch, and I'm currently unable to edit them for w/e reason. If you don't plan on watching all of them, my later matches are much better because I was fully warmed up. I had a bad Marth day. :/ Any criticism at all is welcome, but you can leave out the scolding of my Fox's multishining. I was just doing it for teh lulz.

[collapse= Bones (Falco) vs.]1. Btree (Peach)
2. GimR (Marth)
3. King of Cereal (DK)
4. DJ (Marth)
5. DJ (Marth)
6. King of Cereal (DK)
7. DJ (Marth)
8. King of Cereal (DK)
9. Paul (Sheik)
10. DJ (Marth)
11. Paul (Sheik)
12. DJ (Marth)
13. Paul (Sheik)
14. Paul (Sheik)
15. Paul (Sheik)
16. King of Cereal (DK)
17. Paul (Sheik)[/collapse]
[collapse=Bones (Fox) vs.]1. Btree (Samus)
2. DJ (Marth)
3. DJ (Marth)
4. King of Cereal (DK)
5. DJ (Marth)
6. King of Cereal (DK)
7. DJ (Marth)
8. DJ (Marth)
9. King of Cereal (DK)
10. DJ (Marth)[/collapse]
[collapse=Bones (Marth) vs.]1. Paul (Sheik)
2. King of Cereal (DK)[/collapse]
[collapse=Bones (Ness) vs.]1. DJ (Marth)
2. DJ (Marth)
3. King of Cereal (DK)
4. King of Cereal (DK)[/collapse]

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hey there dirty sexy papa bear <3

edit:

I'm finding the dair more easily ground-techable the more I play vs Falcos so you should probably be going for f-smashes or w/e at medium percents and then see if you can fish for a bair rather than attempting the dair --> dair gimp (if they seem capable of teching the dair, that is; if they just ground themselves and get knocked over you can just dair --> d-smash and the angle + damage will eventually screw her over).

Yeah I was wondering when people would start doing that. Twitch has been doing it to me for a while now....guh.

Fsmash is a mixup for this though. But yeah Dair tech chasing is something that's kinda easy to do in this situation generally.

I'm not sure when Bair beats this tech thing so I didn't know it'd be a good idea haha.

Thanks for the info though cuddly lovable sexalicious babycakes <333

Some are labeled wrong on Twitch, and I'm currently unable to edit them for w/e reason. If you don't plan on watching all of them, my later matches are much better because I was fully warmed up. Any criticism at all is welcome, but you can leave out the scolding of my Fox's multishining. I was just doing it for teh lulz.

[collapse= Bones (Falco) vs.]1. Btree (Peach)
2. GimR (Marth)
3. King of Cereal (DK)
4. DJ (Marth)
5. DJ (Marth)
6. King of Cereal (DK)
7. DJ (Marth)
8. King of Cereal (DK)
9. Paul (Sheik)
10. DJ (Marth)
11. Paul (Sheik)
12. DJ (Marth)
13. Paul (Sheik)
14. Paul (Sheik)
15. Paul (Sheik)
16. King of Cereal (DK)
17. Paul (Sheik)
[/collapse]

[collapse=Bones (Fox) vs.]1. Btree (Samus)
2. DJ (Marth)
3. DJ (Marth)
4. King of Cereal (DK)
5. DJ (Marth)
6. King of Cereal (DK)
7. DJ (Marth)
8. DJ (Marth)
9. King of Cereal (DK)
10. DJ (Marth)
[/collapse]

I got you in a bit man.

 

[Wake]

This little dirty talk exchange between David and PP is hilarious.

 

[Deleted member]

Kevin N: If everyone were robots id outright agree. How one views the game/themselves is a unique foundation that ideas come from. Executing comes once the ideas are in place and i feel it can stem from experience and mindset, in varying degrees. A very interesting and sobering idea though, but sounds hard to improve from for some people.

Max: See i think playing like a robot is the best way to play. Robots focus on things that they know will work and going that route forces you to abandon most "you have to guess" situations, which is where most comebacks and momentum shifts happen. I think pressure by presence is okay though because you rarely lose position when you're wrong. Sometimes you do just have to guess but you can still try to avoid it. "confidence" suggests that you replace certainty with something that isn't certain. It's like a horrible trick lol

Kevin N: Well i agree that playing robotically is best, but that execution could come from how you view the game. And is the situation you feel is useless to engage actively pressuring someone?

Max: I think the primary goal is to keep the opponent in a bad position. From there, how you choose to work the opponent is secondary. If you think about it, when you have control, you're still winning in that instance unconditionally. Pressure by presence is interesting because you're not s potent as you are with active pressure, but there's almost no way to lose position either, and i think that's more important personally. Missing punishes is better than being punished, for example, your set with armada, if you replaced every sh bair with an empty hop and reacted, i bet you would have won that set.

Kevin N: I can get behind playing for positioning first, but if two people are vying hard for that, then it seems like you should default to how to handle the player afterward. Although i suppose you could say one could also reduce the positioning scenario to a few decisions and could systematically fight those. Thats arguably opponent-playing though imo. I do like this idea a lot and you keep some of my ideas in check. For that reason i will keep revising my idea of how i can best safely apply pressure as falco. Empty shs arent quite right, but ill agree they are certainly better than those pitiful bairs i was doing lol

Max: I let them default first, i'd rather continue to jockey for position. Part of why i love watching you play is that i do think you play hardcore scientific method, which me and jason already do and scar has a new blog about it. However, i taught jason and bobby when they were very new players. You got to that style entirely on your own and it still works. I think "robot" is a misnomer but it captures the concepts of reliability, methodical learning, absolute certainty, and inevitability so i'm okay with the style being called robotic. A lot of people think you're a very smart player, but i see you setting up locks and pinning them and they can't do anything. I jerk to this ****.

Kevin N: Haha i dont plan on changing that man. I am just trying to find other ways to make it successful is all.

Max: It's cool, i don't actually know anything, i just troll your thread. I haven't seen you play in 2 months, should be fun to see what you changed.

Kevin N: I haven't been playing much falco because i wanted to see if i should come back fresh. I somewhat regret the decision but i think the process was good for me. I still have plenty on the way to implement haha

Max: I suggest starting with sheik downthrow fair. Once you know what "broken robot" looks like, you can see it elsewhere. Sadly, falco begins and ends with lasers

Kevin N: Lmao oh you

 

[Dr Peepee]

LOL you really included all of them. Nice.

 

[Deleted member]

the idea that i really want to drive home is that you should do things that your opponent can't do anything about. if you have a sub-optimal strategy, you should stop doing it immediately. however, i think a lot of players are encouraged to do sub-optimal strategies due to mindset.

for example, you don't have to "confidently" chaingrab with sheik; you know it's going to work, you just watch it happen. i agree that a lack of confidence will hurt a falco player long term but you shouldn't dupe yourself into thinking your dair approaches will work better if you believe in yourself! that's just stupid.

if feeling a certain way while you're playing changes your in-game decision-making, it's time to understand why. you should then take the winning aspects of it and make it your normal gameplay and cut the rest.

A lot of people think that "confidence" or "a winning attitude" will help them perform better. They don't, you either already had those skills or you didn't. There are dozens of web articles out there bout this subject and they're all worthless. Maybe one of them is written in a certain way that you feel applies to you more, but even then when you're done reading it nothing has changed and you're still the same player. Stop relying on them, it's better to build your raw ability instead.

When i post, a lot of the time i intentionally try to alienate most of the people reading them so they'll leave me the **** alone. I used to come back from class with 30+ IMs asking me how to be a better player. I'll make this one VERY clear for anyone reading:

The best way to improve at smash is to get better at playing the game.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Well, I again think that mindset should be the way through which these types of strategies are perfected or unlocked. For example, if I "believe in myself," then I may be able to play the effective best strategy better. I don't think I ever meant to suggest mindset could be superior to strategy haha. Come to think of it, that may have been the problem the majority of the time.

 

[Deleted member]

Well, I again think that mindset should be the way through which these types of strategies are perfected or unlocked. For example, if I "believe in myself," then I may be able to play the effective best strategy better. I don't think I ever meant to suggest mindset could be superior to strategy haha. Come to think of it, that may have been the problem the majority of the time.

you're thinking of mood. everyone plays this game better when they're in a better mood.

you have have good reason to believe in yourself. you play the best style the game offers and one of the best characters. but it's certainly the foundation of how excellent you are as a player. many players are just as confident as you and you'd body them in a bracket.

mindset =/= ability. mindset << ability.

"aptitude, not attitude"

 

[ShroudedOne]

If it means anything, I only really improve at this game when I re-work my tech skill, and go into hardcore practice mode, not when I re-work/attempt to rethink the player vs player. I just try to practice my mixups, and make sure that I can move the way I need to, so that everything else falls into place. So I can agree that the ability to be able to do the best thing when you need to (playing the game) is by far the most important thing. But if you know something will work, doesn't that imply confidence? If you're unsure all the time, I don't think you're going to do as well as when you are sure in everything you do.

But your point is that confidence comes from being able to play the game, and confidence in and of itself cannot bolster/improve your ability to play it (which is why ability trumps mindset).

But I'm low level, so what do I know.

 

[Rubyiris]

So much potentially awesome stuff to read. I'm far too sick/dizzy/etc to attempt it right now.

Keep it up.

 

[Deleted member]

true ability doesn't trump mindset, it ignores it.

Keep it up.

nah, back to trolling and tales of symphonia. 4 absorb 4 immune raine ftw. paella and ****.