PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Niko45]

taking that ledge is pretty good too, it's all pretty good

 

[Dr Peepee]

so two things i dont see
when marth throws you off, lots of people like to shine stall then wait to see what marth does, then either jump with aerial or jump then air dodge. problem is, marth can bait either of those then wd back and punish. BUT if you jump with a laser or even double laser(not sure if that works) you'll beat that. actually it might just be straight up better except when marth comes down to gimp you.

then another thing is...when you're comboing and you're following them from one of the middle platforms to the top platform, say after a shine....traditionally you have the two options of wavelanding or shine wavelanding onto the platform or double jumping above to bait a dash attack, but that gets predicted pretty easily. one way to bait the getup attack is by making them think youre gonna wd on. you can do this by short hopping toward the top platform, then staying in your shine until they getup attack, then hit them after. its kind of like what mango does with his up-b, but its better.

Wouldn't that first part depend on DI and how far away Marth WDs as well? If you DI in and he WDs back a little bit then I'd think he could still cover you sweetspotting or jumping up at him. Or is this when you Bair him? I wouldn't think it'd reach really but maybe the ending hitbox would.....

That other trick chops showed me in 2009 haha, it's too good. I like doing empty hops or FH aerial momentum tricks to bait that stuff as well.

Both of these tricks are neat.

When marth throws me off at low percent I usually just go for the double jump sweet spot, or the shine stall->DJ sweetspot. the shine stall prevent him from coming down to get you (because you dont jump into his fair or w/e) and the sweet spot prevent him from getting you with shenanigans like WD. The only way to stop this from what I can tell is a hard read by the marth to throw you off and take the ledge immediately. But doing that loses to pretty much anything else you do, so most marths wont ever take the ledge unless the hog will kill you directly.

Ya the shine thing is great for baiting get up attack. full hop over them and shine stall above them, bait the get up and then ****.
This is also really good for when you're coming down with no jumps. shine stall or firebird to not get *****.

I've never even seen a Marth throw offstage to take the edge lol. Cool idea though.

and yeah last part is legit too

 

[Niko45]

really? you just sneak in and take the ledge right before they DJ to the ledge and then ledge stand and counter it's so free lol.

 

[Divinokage]

@Kage: lol No, i don't think its skill. People are just amazed to see a 12 year old play this game. I was surprised when I found out he was a 12 year old. When crush joined smashboards and started trolling me, I thought he was this 23 year old Chubby fat guy that simply trolls. He would simply post after me on every single thread. It was so annoying. I have the invisible mode on now just like M2k simply because crush is trolling me that doesn't seem to work either. Yea I agree with you, kids are the future and I would like to teach my 8 year old cousin the game one day when he is ready to learn. But I guaretee you when he joins smashboards he won't troll. I just think he is overrated. The fact that only three people knew about the MM between me and him and all of a sudden the match was put on blast 3 months ago on a thread. I felt disgusted. I just can't wait to beat him at Apex so he can shut up. I honestly don't care if the community will look at me as an enemy after I beat him. I'll show no mercy in the MM.

Hehehe, but if you lose after saying this.. oh boy it's going to be funny. =P

 

[leffen]

Taking the edge is SO underused in gimps/edgeguarding situations.

Vs CF / Ganon you just throw em off (sheik/fox etc) and then just grab the ledge instantly. If they're at a high enough percent they literally cannot do ANYTHING.

 

[Divinokage]

I disagree, the nerves in tournament makes it so people don't grab the edge.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

..what are you disagreeing about?

 

[Druggedfox]

Yea, grabbing the ledge can set up guaranteed deaths from early percents for sure; its pretty free.

Aight, thanks strong bad, very good to know.

 

[Divinokage]

..what are you disagreeing about?

The fact that it's so easy to just grab the ledge.

 

[Veetaak]

I don't think nerves would stop you from taking the ledge when gimping. They do it all the time at tourneys in other situations, so...

It's just one WD, SH, moonwalk, w/e. It being a gimping situation shouldn't matter

 

[Sinji]

The invincibilty frames are there. I don't see why you shouldn't grab the ledge. >_>

 

[danieljosebatista]

Wait, is crush actually 12 or am i just way out of it?

 

[Bones0]

Wait, is crush actually 12 or am i just way out of it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y69CH1D-0jQ


Also, grabbing the ledge against Falco is an easy way to get Phantasm spiked. Proceed with caution.

 

[danieljosebatista]

Omfg. Props to the next generation man

 

[Bones0]

Omfg. Props to the next generation man

I thought that was a Star Trek reference... and I don't even watch Star Trek. LOL

 

[crush]

isn't star trek a videogame?

edit: nvm was thinkng of star craft

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

Both of these tricks are neat.

When marth throws me off at low percent I usually just go for the double jump sweet spot, or the shine stall->DJ sweetspot. the shine stall prevent him from coming down to get you (because you dont jump into his fair or w/e) and the sweet spot prevent him from getting you with shenanigans like WD. The only way to stop this from what I can tell is a hard read by the marth to throw you off and take the ledge immediately. But doing that loses to pretty much anything else you do, so most marths wont ever take the ledge unless the hog will kill you directly.

Cool stuff but I'm a little confused about Marth's options after he Dthrows you off stage.

1. If you shine right after the dthrow, can't he run off and Fair you? Maybe it's just selective memory on my part but I played Hyprid a bunch one night and he would do this to me every time, and half the time it would catch my double jump out of my shine.
2. Does marth's dtilt reach below where you can sweetspot? It looks so scary lol

 

[Bones0]

Star Trek
Star Wars
Star Craft
World of Warcraft

 

[Bones0]

Cool stuff but I'm a little confused about Marth's options after he Dthrows you off stage.

1. If you shine right after the dthrow, can't he run off and Fair you? Maybe it's just selective memory on my part but I played Hyprid a bunch one night and he would do this to me every time, and half the time it would catch my double jump out of my shine.
2. Does marth's dtilt reach below where you can sweetspot? It looks so scary lol

1. Yeah, the only way to avoid dthrow -> run off fair is to DI away -> DJ back or DI in -> some wall jump ****. If you are pretty sure they will run off fair, you can try DI in -> DJ dair back onto the stage. It does a good job of keeping them in check from just chasing you off every time, but if they read it you just blew your DJ by the ledge and will die.

2. If he is at dtilt tipper range, use the up-B stall to get that extra bit of grab distance from your DJ. You're not going to be able to just regularly DJ sweet spot against any competent Marth. It's pretty simple to react to, and anything they punish it with leads to death. There's also no down side to going for the up-B stall because it prevents Marth from grabbing the ledge (he can grab it, but as soon as he jumps off to punish you you'll grab it, and if he rolls off you just up-B to safety).

 

[JPOBS]

Cool stuff but I'm a little confused about Marth's options after he Dthrows you off stage.

1. If you shine right after the dthrow, can't he run off and Fair you? Maybe it's just selective memory on my part but I played Hyprid a bunch one night and he would do this to me every time, and half the time it would catch my double jump out of my shine.
2. Does marth's dtilt reach below where you can sweetspot? It looks so scary lol

Ideally the point of the shine is that he will miss. Assuming he runs off immediately his fair will be timed to hit your (assumed) dj. But the shine mixs it up just a little. If he jumps off and either reads ur gonna shine or he just has baller reactions and reacts to the shine, he can hit you. But for the most part the point is you still have your jump and can use it at anytime after seeing what he does first.

I'm not 100%, but I'm fairly certain his dtilt doesnt hit to your sweetspot. You can grab the ledge from below with a good sweetspot and i dont think his dtilt hits *that* low. but if ur sweetspot is sloppy and goes too high (which is pretty easy to mess up honestly) his dtilt can kill you.

it also depends on exactly how close he is to the edge. If he's a little ways back from the edge, you can dj and drift back a bit above the ledge and his dtilt will miss. if he's closer to edge this wont work

 

[Winston]

Try doing dj back -> shorten sweetspot

shinestall -> walljump -> shorten sweetspot might work also

without shortening I think Marth can make it a pure 50/50 if he wants to (he can cover all your options besides instant dj back dair by going offstage; if you instant dair it kills him, but if he calls your instant dair he kills you, etc.)

edit: oh yea the zhuuu might also work (shinestall -> airdodge recovery)

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

I know right. People are treating crush like a god after seeing him at ROM 4. I wonder how the community will look at me after I beat him at Apex. hehe.

@Kage: lol No, i don't think its skill. People are just amazed to see a 12 year old play this game. I was surprised when I found out he was a 12 year old. When crush joined smashboards and started trolling me, I thought he was this 23 year old Chubby fat guy that simply trolls. He would simply post after me on every single thread. It was so annoying. I have the invisible mode on now just like M2k simply because crush is trolling me that doesn't seem to work either. Yea I agree with you, kids are the future and I would like to teach my 8 year old cousin the game one day when he is ready to learn. But I guaretee you when he joins smashboards he won't troll. I just think he is overrated. The fact that only three people knew about the MM between me and him and all of a sudden the match was put on blast 3 months ago on a thread. I felt disgusted. I just can't wait to beat him at Apex so he can shut up. I honestly don't care if the community will look at me as an enemy after I beat him. I'll show no mercy in the MM.

do they have cartoons in jamaica
more importantly: do they have christmas in jamaica?

lol from what ive seen of both of you id actually put money on Crush over you

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

]edit: oh yea the zhuuu might also work (shinestall -> airdodge recovery)

I literally did that against m2k on the spot. Had 0 things planned going into that match rofl



So I played roughly 10 hours in the past few days exclusively against Sheik (tafokints, shroomed, lord). My conclusion is that Sheik is doable (still my hardest matchup along with Marth), but needs a completely different mentality going in (at least one that's foreign to me).

Unlike Falcon / Falco / Fox... etc, I haven't been able to single out a recurring scenario that has a guaranteed hard punish, but that's ok. My most successful matches / sets against Sheik were ones that I just focused on playing well overall (specifically just avoiding getting ***** as opposed to ****** the sheik) as opposed to focusing on a single aspect of play (this is something I do for just about every other matchup). I'm on a ski trip for a few days, so I'll spend some time theorycrafting / revising certain videos.

Thanks for all the help unknown / pp. I'm actually really bad at taking other people's advice, but I feel like the writeups made a significant difference for me.

 

[Winston]

I literally did that against m2k on the spot. Had 0 things planned going into that match rofl

Well it was awesome and it worked =D

Do you still use it/would you recommend mixing it in? Or do you think there are better options?

Unlike Falcon / Falco / Fox... etc, I haven't been able to single out a recurring scenario that has a guaranteed hard punish, but that's ok.

What are some of those situations vs. Falcon/Falco/Fox?

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

Well it was awesome and it worked =D

Do you still use it/would you recommend mixing it in? Or do you think there are better options?



What are some of those situations vs. Falcon/Falco/Fox?

mmm probably... not. honestly it's just better to avoid teching / getting hit to the sides. even then it's not that good. I prefer wall jump -> something or just jumping back and going high.



I'd say I go for landings and reactions to shield pressure in particular. Sheik isn't extremely vulnerable in either of these situations, so I have trouble with her. The upside to playing Sheik is that I'm learning the dash dance game that all the other characters are used to (I feel like dash mixups are more useful than lasers in this matchup), making my Fox a lot better lols

 

[Druggedfox]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0r_PLK7XTCw&feature=related

Just felt like leaving that here

 

[Wake]

That is pretty awesome. Make some with Peach in it!

 

[FoxLisk]

i was trying to find this video of silent wolf trying all sorts of shine stall, walljump, DJ, etc recoveries vs m2k's gimping in friendlies at pound 3 as a lulzy example of how that **** can all still get you ****ed but i cant track it down

so lets pretend i left that here and everyone had a laugh? :3

also $5 on crush > sinji

 

[Mahone]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0r_PLK7XTCw&feature=related

Just felt like leaving that here

Finally, they uploaded kage vs hax from rom in good quality...

More hype in person imo... People always look slower in vids

 

[Sinji]

lol from what ive seen of both of you id actually put money on Crush over you

also $5 on crush > sinji

Go ahead then hehe.

 

[CK Momentum]

LMFAO Oh Sinji. Crush is the next Mang0.

Crush will wreck you.

JPOBS: loving your new sig.

 

[crush]

Fashion Sense Back Room!

 

[Sinji]

They need to make a fashion sense backroom.

 

[JPOBS]

Falco's ledgehop waveland can reach the near platforms on DL. You can also ledgehop phantasm edgecancel on DL like stadium.

Food for thought Falbros.

 

[Divinokage]

Finally, they uploaded kage vs hax from rom in good quality...

More hype in person imo... People always look slower in vids

Psh, definitely not as good as me vs Hax. Sorry I'm a hater of TAS vids.

 

[Sinji]

Falco's ledgehop waveland can reach the near platforms on DL. You can also ledgehop phantasm edgecancel on DL like stadium.

Food for thought Falbros.

Ye i tested this last night. to add to that you can shorten your illusion after the ledgehop.

 

[tarheeljks]

interesting, i always think people look faster on video

 

[Bones0]

You have to be double frame perfect to waveland onto the side plats of DL. >___>

You can ledge cancel Phantasm on all of the stages though.


People look faster on video because YouTube runs at 30 fps. See: Zhu's dash dancing in another galaxy.

 

[JPOBS]

I think the rate at which you have to be frame perfect is exaggerated. its not "fame perfect" but it is reeeally tight though.
I can only do it on the right lol

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

I'm not 100%, but I'm fairly certain his dtilt doesnt hit to your sweetspot. You can grab the ledge from below with a good sweetspot and i dont think his dtilt hits *that* low. but if ur sweetspot is sloppy and goes too high (which is pretty easy to mess up honestly) his dtilt can kill you.

it also depends on exactly how close he is to the edge. If he's a little ways back from the edge, you can dj and drift back a bit above the ledge and his dtilt will miss. if he's closer to edge this wont work

Hmm, alright.

Two more questions

1. When falco/fox double jumps at the ledge to sweetspot, I see some people Up B right before they reach the ledge. Does this actually extend where your sweetspot is (like a firefox stall kinda thing) or is it just for flashiness? lol

2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vl1kA3GB_cg
I watched this match a million years ago and have wondered ever since, does this particular kind of shine dair to 80% actually work on marth most of the time or did me2king just DI really badly?

People look faster on video because YouTube runs at 30 fps. See: Zhu's dash dancing in another galaxy.

I think even IRL, his dashdance opens a wormhole to another dimension.