PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Brookman]

Of course we all have something to offer one another. No two people will have the exact same experience - tho I think sooner or later we all learn that rolling is easy to punish

 

[JPOBS]

Buffer roll on whiff'd aerials is the greatest thing in melee.

rolling oos in general is terrible at mid level because EVERYONE is looking to bait/punish it. Very useful at upper level because your opponent knows that you have so many viable options that its really hard to cover them all.
I think S2j is the best roller in the scene right now. His rolls are so cash. never gets punished.
lol

 

[Summonedfist]

In no offensive way can a tier 5 torney player give better advice than a tier 1 or 2.

lol what's that fallacy called where it's appeal to authority or something....

 

[Brookman]

i don't believe you have a strong grasp on logic

 

[Summonedfist]

^^ that sure is a logical approach

 

[Fernandez]

Rolling away is really good and underrated

 

[Deleted member]

Buffer roll on whiff'd aerials is the greatest thing in melee.

rolling oos in general is terrible at mid level because EVERYONE is looking to bait/punish it. Very useful at upper level because your opponent knows that you have so many viable options that its really hard to cover them all.
I think S2j is the best roller in the scene right now. His rolls are so cash. never gets punished.
lol

the key is to roll like a ****ing noob

 

[Linguini]

i'm pretty sick at rolling too haha

 

[Blistering Speed]

The amount of hypocrisy in Leffen's posts, with regards to everything, is overwhelming.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I've been trying to catch up in this thread and I'm still at the part where people are saying Falcos combos are really hard to optimize and use effectively. And that Marth takes oodles of precision to combo with (apparently up throw to aerials or up tilt is really hard).

It's times like these where I feel like I'm the only high level player who thinks their character is good. And it's a very strange feeling.

 

[Lanceinthepants]

I've been trying to catch up in this thread and I'm still at the part where people are saying Falcos combos are really hard to optimize and use effectively. And that Marth takes oodles of precision to combo with (apparently up throw to aerials or up tilt is really hard).

It's times like these where I feel like I'm the only high level player who thinks their character is good. And it's a very strange feeling.

Don't worry the good part is coming up. Mostly consisting of Leffen trashing the U.S. and your level of gayness.

 

[Aber]

how much better is shield dropping compared to the one where u just take a half step forwards then drop throiugh?

It's not about speed. You don't put up your shield just to release it and drop through the platform lol. The reason shield dropping is so good because there are a lot of times you find yourself shielding on a platform, with an opponents lag to punish underneath you.......If you could walk OoS and instantly drop through then it would be useless but you cannot. Being able to punish something like an upsmash on your shield while on a platform is why its so good, and would make smashing shields on platforms no longer safe if people could learn to do it consistentley.

 

[Aber]

It's times like these where I feel like I'm the only high level player who thinks their character is good. And it's a very strange feeling.

It's funny cause people complaining about their characters weaknesses actually shows how balanced the game is. Every character has their strengths and weaknesses, which the player has to work around to use the character effectively. Marth, who I play, for example, his biggest weakness (imo) is the lack of a reliable kill move outside of combos. For example, chars like sheik/fox/falco can sort of just throw out (Not just throw out but just in the midst of battle not like a combo sequence) fair (sheik) or bair (all 3). With these chars, 1 good smack at 100-150% will knock the opponent offstage. When you start creeping up on these high percents however, marth seems helpless.......Complaining about my character haha

 

[CK Momentum]

It's not about speed. You don't put up your shield just to release it and drop through the platform lol. The reason shield dropping is so good because there are a lot of times you find yourself shielding on a platform, with an opponents lag to punish underneath you.......If you could walk OoS and instantly drop through then it would be useless but you cannot. Being able to punish something like an upsmash on your shield while on a platform is why its so good, and would make smashing shields on platforms no longer safe if people could learn to do it consistentley.

I have been thinking about how to get out of marths utilt-uair when I"m stuck on the platform and I think I'll have to learn this I bet it would work pretty well. Cos utilt isn't too fast on the back swing.

 

[Aber]

u tilt has a great deal of lag and is punishable.....this is exactly where you would apply this

 

[CK Momentum]

Yea sometimes I can get out by jumping and going to the top platform. But if they actually hit me and deal percent with the utilt I think I'd have to like, SDI off the platform -> jump out. So maybe I'll roll to one edge then SDI into the stage jump waveland the top platform. We'll see.

Another situation I hate is being tech chased by sheik, but I just read a post by Kirby Kaze that says if u hold the tech button down during your roll, you'll get out. I think at my next tournament (this saturday Art Institute, Brookline Mass) I'm gonna work on defensive stuff like mixing up my OOS stuff/SDI/ledge tching and also tech chasing, since I think tech chasing someone really well is the door into their mind. And who doesn't want to be inside someone else's mind?

 

[Summonedfist]

It's not about speed. You don't put up your shield just to release it and drop through the platform lol. The reason shield dropping is so good because there are a lot of times you find yourself shielding on a platform, with an opponents lag to punish underneath you.......If you could walk OoS and instantly drop through then it would be useless but you cannot. Being able to punish something like an upsmash on your shield while on a platform is why its so good, and would make smashing shields on platforms no longer safe if people could learn to do it consistentley.

i don't think you know exactly what shield dropping is.
shield dropping is inherently faster than isai dropping.

you 'put up your shield just to release it and drop through' you drop through with the shield up and the shield cancels as you drop through.

whether your in a situation where your shielding on a platform or just moving around the stage, shield dropping is much faster and more convenient than isai dropping. shield dropping you can do out of a dash, where you cannot with isai drop, for example.

only real disadvantage to shield dropping is consistency of its execution vs. spotdodging.

 

[CK Momentum]

Also how do I get out of Marth's chain grab? I think what I have to do is just DI slightly behind, so I do, but they can still re grab by using pivot. The only really good solution I can think of to escaping the chain grab is to just not get grabbed to begin with.

 

[Aber]

i don't think you know exactly what shield dropping is.
shield dropping is inherently faster than isai dropping.

you 'put up your shield just to release it and drop through' you drop through with the shield up and the shield cancels as you drop through.

whether your in a situation where your shielding on a platform or just moving around the stage, shield dropping is much faster and more convenient than isai dropping. shield dropping you can do out of a dash, where you cannot with isai drop, for example.

only real disadvantage to shield dropping is consistency of its execution vs. spotdodging.

I know exactly what it is......sure maybe it's faster as well w/e. Not the point. The greatest benefit it presents is being able to drop through a platform and punish a move you otherwise would not be able to with a wd/jump OoS w/e. OK sure you can drop through a couple frames faster while simply moving around and not being hit but this does not present something that you were otherwise completely unable to do before. Which dropping through right out of your shield does.

Maybe I'm wrong but just shield dropping all the time doesn't seem to be revolutionary seeing as you can drop through platforms any noob can do it.....However, moves hitting a shielded player on a platform are usually safe because they cannot be punished. If someone were to shield drop consistently this would no longer be the case.

 

[CK Momentum]

okay take home points

1. shield dropping is faster and will help punish a person below you when you're on the platform
2. isai dropping = easier to do, but ONLY drops through the platform faster, cannot be done out of dash/shield/with one eye poked out, etc.

What kind of name is Aber anyways?

 

[Aber]

A ****ing cool one

 

[Dr Peepee]

@Jpobs: I'd listen if you gave advice. =)

I try to avoid whiffing but if I do it then yeah I can usually roll away for free. Occasionally I'll whiff as a bait so it makes sense it would work out like that.

@KK: I'll get back to you on that. =p

 

[Bl@ckChris]

With these chars, 1 good smack at 100-150% will knock the opponent offstage. When you start creeping up on these high percents however, marth seems helpless.......Complaining about my character haha

once marths learn the gayness that is your own dtilt, i think killing falcon and ganon will become a lot easier for you.

and i feel like i should see a lot more counter -> weak fair to kill spacies who like to wall ride.

i just know i live forever vs marths when they keep using neutral B and fsmash when a dtilt would kill me far sooner lol.

 

[the_CAM_factor]

A ****ing cool one

he likes goats.

 

[Brookman]

^^ that sure is a logical approach

^^all aboard the fallacy train.

 

[ruhtraeel]

I've been trying to catch up in this thread and I'm still at the part where people are saying Falcos combos are really hard to optimize and use effectively. And that Marth takes oodles of precision to combo with (apparently up throw to aerials or up tilt is really hard).

It's times like these where I feel like I'm the only high level player who thinks their character is good. And it's a very strange feeling.

When you get to PP's level, you come to deal head on with your character's weaknesses... especially when someone like M2K will punish the hell out of your mistakes

so the precision they are talking about I am assuming is just in relation to how hard you get punished if you mess up

in context, every time you drop a combo you get owned, so you need to execute and optimize them perfectly, which brings out flaws in the character/in the attack choices when the combo doesn't end up happening well

 

[Strong Badam]

It's times like these where I feel like I'm the only high level player who thinks their character is good. And it's a very strange feeling.

Basically.

 

[metaivan]

I wish mango wasn't banned

yeah man :/. I really missed his post .

 

[Mogwai]

Who wants to talk about tech skill?

[/siz


Dear pobs,

In no offensive way can a tier 5 torney player give better advice than a tier 1 or 2.

Hey, as a tier 5 tourney player, I take offense to that!

 

[Beat!]

and i feel like i should see a lot more counter -> weak fair to kill spacies who like to wall ride.

Except that only works against spacies who don't know how to sweetspot the ledge.

Counter is decent for edge guarding spacies, but nothing to rely on, especially not if there's time to do something else.

 

[Niko45]

this thread, it's certainly something

 

[Mogwai]

this thread, it's certainly something

you'll get no argument from anyone. we should play smash brothers melee for the nintendo game cube.

 

[Max?]

Wes you know I'm moving to Danbury soon right? And that you're going to see more of me than you want to right?

<333

What you doing this weekend.

Btw, this thread is pretty horrible right now

 

[Bones0]

So much misinformation about shield dropping. Honestly, if you don't use it all the time, don't try and say what it is or isn't useful for. I don't go to the Peach boards and tell them how to out-space people because I can't float cancel to save my life.

First off, anything Isai Dropping can do, Shield Dropping can do, and it does it faster. The catch is obviously that some things are much harder with shield dropping. I AM NOT talking about performing the actual shield drop. I mean when you want to do a slow move as you drop through. For instance, I can only shield drop laser consistently on DL platform heights and above. For any platforms below that height, it seems like you can only get the laser off without fast falling the shield drop. From what I can tell, in order to shield drop you have to pass/reach the barrier for the input of fast falling. This means that you will always fast fall UNLESS you pull the stick back up above the barrier before the shield drop starts. So basically, it has to be frame perfect. I'd guess it's something like this:
1 - Shielding
2 - You input the shield drop and go into the pass animation
3 - Move stick back up to avoid fast falling

Aside from this one draw back, here are the general uses/benefits:

1. Counter Attack
You're shielding on a platform. They hit you. You shield drop and attack immediately to hit them before their lag ends.

2. Mobility
You're dashing on platforms and want to get down. Even for Fox or Falcon who have amazingly fast SHs, shield dropping through and attacking is literally twice as fast as SHing off the platform and attacking. You can also opt out of attacking and instead continue dashing in either direction. When you are adept at shield dropping, you can quite literally run circles around players as they chase where you were moments before you "magically" dropped through the platform. A last tid bit is that you can shield drop out of wavedashes similar to doing it out of a dash.

3. Deception
You can fake both of the above options to bait reactions, and it is relatively safe. Shield drop through to double jump waveland is the most basic one. There's also the simple presence of these options that make your opponent have to predict. When they see you dash dancing on platforms, not only do they have to space and watch out for SHed attacks off of them, but they have to space and watch for a shield drop which they probably won't be able to react to. When you are shielding on a platform, they have to be careful about attacking. If they don't attack at the right time, you could either shield drop an attack or just jump away. The cost for attacking too late is a whiff and maybe taking a hit, and if they attack too early and hit your shield, it's also a guaranteed hit.

 

[leffen]

tl dr shield dropping is a very easy, extremely useful technique that noone seems to use.

scrubs.

 

[Mogwai]

Wes you know I'm moving to Danbury soon right? And that you're going to see more of me than you want to right?

<333

What you doing this weekend.

Btw, this thread is pretty horrible right now

I totally can't wait.

This weekend I'm going down to philly to hang out with some friends. If yall are playing on Monday though, I'd probably be in.

This thread is mostly awful with little awesome posts like bones' last one interspersed. Maybe I should start infracting peole to see if it makes things better...

 

[JPOBS]

i have to say, one thing europe is way ahead of is the whole shield dropping metagame. From their recent vids, it seems like pretty much all the top players use shield dropping very effectively and consistently.

its so pathetically underused in the west.

I personally can't shield drop to save my life.

 

[leffen]

European players are usually a bit more unique and take less from each others (language barriers, not as many vids etc) so we develop our own strategies and techniques...

in the USA there are very very many copycats so if the top players don't start then noone does.
sad but true.


its still underused however, I'm the only one who can consistently shield drop through pressure etc ;o

 

[Veetaak]

Jeapie does it alot too and he seems to do it consistently

 

[leffen]

he did it what, 3 times in 3 sets ;o and zero times before that tournament?

no disrespect to him but it wasnt any really "pressure" either, and he could have punished those uairs with a knee etc oos.

If he does more often then awesome, really good to see it spreading

I've been doing it for at least a year now though ;<