Niko45
Smash Master
It's getting painful
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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Dr Peepee
- Start date
-ShadowPhoenix-
Smash Bash
People tell me Falco's pretty good
Beat!
Smash Master
They are filthy LIARS
leffen
Smash Champion
man your avatar really makes that post come alive.
good work
good work
-ShadowPhoenix-
Smash Bash
i figured...
the_CAM_factor
Smash Journeyman
yo bro shoot me first atleast.
also when you moving to ct?
Beat!
Smash Master
Didn't even think about that LOL
leffen
Smash Champion
Max's "blows brains out" are also a perfect fit with his avatar.
shadwpheonix moustache pikachu is also amazing for his shy little posts.
shadwpheonix moustache pikachu is also amazing for his shy little posts.
alright, this stupid **** has jumped the shark, we should get back to Falco, how do others feel about this?
-ShadowPhoenix-
Smash Bash
Niko45
Smash Master
is this the death of melee
Max?
Smash Champion
Should be the 2nd or 3rd week of January, if not sooner. We'll see how my life pans out.
At least we have Catan to fall back on.
Bones0
Smash Legend
Well I went to a tournament not too long ago, but nothing got recorded. I was shield dropping like mad. It's really just a non-issue for me, at this point.
Like I said, that's from months ago. If you don't want to believe that I could possibly be better at shield dropping than you, then you can just ignore my judgement of your shield drops. lol
I hate people who use other people as their avatars because I always imagine that person reciting the post. It's especially strange for Mogwai. LOL
crush
Smash Master
leffen is soooo good i recommend actually watching his yoshi, its way better than yall think also im pretty sure the earth is the center of the universe the sun and moon and mars all revolve around the earth (thats how mangets work) also god totes exists bro he's up there judging you right now leffen im surprised you havent been struck by lightning yet i pray every night and waste 5 mins of my life since i dun wanna get futtbucked by god anytime soon
but bones is better imo
but bones is better imo
Bones0
Smash Legend
Thanks krush. Means a lot.
leffen
Smash Champion
Sure mogwai.
How do you think Falco can deal with good powershielding? It's really easy to force falco to approach once you got it down, too.
and bones, me believing that you COULD be better at shield dropping really isnt relevant to my shield drops being "janky as ****". It'd be like me refuting any of your arguments just because my falco happens to be better than yours >_>.
You're really just bending your faulty accusations and lack of vids with really really weird logic.
How do you think Falco can deal with good powershielding? It's really easy to force falco to approach once you got it down, too.
and bones, me believing that you COULD be better at shield dropping really isnt relevant to my shield drops being "janky as ****". It'd be like me refuting any of your arguments just because my falco happens to be better than yours >_>.
You're really just bending your faulty accusations and lack of vids with really really weird logic.
Tekk
Smash Lord
Well approaching with an empty shorthop works well vs good powershielders, from my experience.
leffen
Smash Champion
good powershielding as in not spamming it when they will be punished for it (ie falcos perfect spacing range, at the end of his sh).
Falco lasering that close isn't that much of a problem anyway since if you guess that he'll laser you can poke him during the long startup.
Falco lasering that close isn't that much of a problem anyway since if you guess that he'll laser you can poke him during the long startup.
Good powershielding is rare. Even if people go beastmode with it, I find they're usually focusing really hard just on powershielding, which means I find Tekk's response to be the right one, just like, empty short hop -> waveland grab or something.
Honestly, if someone could go beastmode powershielding on reaction without letting it affect their reactions to other things, I think Falco's 100% ****ed, but I'm yet to see someone really do that.
Honestly, if someone could go beastmode powershielding on reaction without letting it affect their reactions to other things, I think Falco's 100% ****ed, but I'm yet to see someone really do that.
Max?
Smash Champion
Crush is the man.
Bones0
Smash Legend
Well if my shield drops are better than yours, then yours are relatively janky, and the accusation isn't faulty. Your analogy of a player today calling an newer player's WDs janky because he can't do them frame perfect is pretty accurate. Either way, it's a pointless argument when I have no way to display my usage of shield dropping.
As far as power shielding goes, I shoot low lasers and jump over them, high lasers and grab under them, or just plain old empty SH and grab. I'm not sure it's very dependable to rely on power shields vs. Falco because of those options, but I might just not be comfortable enough power shielding myself. Do most people WD OoS after power shields? I was trying to learn to do it for Falco dittos, but I end up getting the power shield and just sitting there.
leffen
Smash Champion
I agree with you Mogwai, I just think that its a matter of time before Falco will start to fall (people think that he wins 70-30 vs sheik and marth COUGHM2KCOUGH).
I'm 100% certain we will get to this point. Currently its very much like when I started using parrying with Yoshi - its hard, but extremely useful, but it easily leads you into becoming to predictable (ie greedy)
However, the more I practice with powershielding and parrying/shielddropping/yougetit the more I can see that any option falco has are really just terrible gimmicks that only work because the falco player knows that the opponent is literally obsessed with powershielding instead of using it as just another option.
One thing I really don't see why people haven't learned yet is to **** any falco for "tech chasing" or just chasing them overall with lasers (for example when you bair someone but aren't able to true combo out of it so you just shoot a laser to limit them everytime).
These lasers ALWAYS makes the opponent sit in shield instead of moving normally and lets falco continue his pressure much longer than he should. Instead, people should just learn to time to powershield the laser after the bair/tech instead of just holding shield during their hitstun/lag. These lasers are really easy to react to.
thoughts?
@Bones:Your shield drops would have to be way better than mine to be "janky as ****" in comparison which you know isn't the case.
you obviously didn't know **** about it anyway so nvm.
Shooting low lasers and jumping over them means that you are a far bit away from them which means that you cannot punish them for powershielding it if they do it correctly. Remember that this also requires you to shoot low lasers AND it forces you to predictably jump with your opponent being in a neutral frame advantage.
In other words, marth/shiek beats this with using their standard jump->fair since the laser is low and they can pretty easily punish your landing lag to.
This doesn't really beat the powershield, its just a gimmick that will only put you in advantage if they don't know about it /watch what you're doing.
High laser->grab suffers the reverse weaknesses. You can just attack before the laser [as if falco didn't have a laser] and it forces you to already be in optimal spacing.
but yeah, falco sucks at powershielding his lasers and has pretty bad options out of it too.
I'm 100% certain we will get to this point. Currently its very much like when I started using parrying with Yoshi - its hard, but extremely useful, but it easily leads you into becoming to predictable (ie greedy)
However, the more I practice with powershielding and parrying/shielddropping/yougetit the more I can see that any option falco has are really just terrible gimmicks that only work because the falco player knows that the opponent is literally obsessed with powershielding instead of using it as just another option.
One thing I really don't see why people haven't learned yet is to **** any falco for "tech chasing" or just chasing them overall with lasers (for example when you bair someone but aren't able to true combo out of it so you just shoot a laser to limit them everytime).
These lasers ALWAYS makes the opponent sit in shield instead of moving normally and lets falco continue his pressure much longer than he should. Instead, people should just learn to time to powershield the laser after the bair/tech instead of just holding shield during their hitstun/lag. These lasers are really easy to react to.
thoughts?
@Bones:Your shield drops would have to be way better than mine to be "janky as ****" in comparison which you know isn't the case.
you obviously didn't know **** about it anyway so nvm.
Shooting low lasers and jumping over them means that you are a far bit away from them which means that you cannot punish them for powershielding it if they do it correctly. Remember that this also requires you to shoot low lasers AND it forces you to predictably jump with your opponent being in a neutral frame advantage.
In other words, marth/shiek beats this with using their standard jump->fair since the laser is low and they can pretty easily punish your landing lag to.
This doesn't really beat the powershield, its just a gimmick that will only put you in advantage if they don't know about it /watch what you're doing.
High laser->grab suffers the reverse weaknesses. You can just attack before the laser [as if falco didn't have a laser] and it forces you to already be in optimal spacing.
but yeah, falco sucks at powershielding his lasers and has pretty bad options out of it too.
Tekk
Smash Lord
I agree with you leffen, in fact I try to have that afterbair powershield among my reflexes when playing fox, it literally destroys falco's pressure.
The whole reason I think Falco is so good is that I don't think the level where lasers aren't in some way channeling your opponent's options down is attainable by humans. This has nothing to do with a technical barrier, it's a reaction time barrier and as much as I'm constantly proven wrong in terms of the precise timings that people can train into their muscle memory, people are still limited by reaction time and thus I always think Falco will be able to control his opponent in one way or another via lasers.
Could you provide an example of such "gimmicks?" Not that I necessarily disagree, but I'm curious about where your full opinion lies.
My personal response to powershielding is change up everything once I see it happen once. Timing(out of DD, in general so it's not easy to get beaten by a rhythm, etc), height, spacing I use lasers at, everything I can think of. Sometimes the opponent only needs one powershield to kill you though, and that's a tough thing to work back from(being a stock down in general is obviously).
And your last point is a reallllllly good one. I've actually tried to quit shooting those lasers to prepare for when people figure that out haha, but it should definitely be more of a mixup type situation than a continued pressure situation which everyone makes it out to be.
People get too stuck on being pressured and can't tell exactly where the holes are yet so they assume continuous pressure since they get punished OOS or whatever a lot. I'd say the reason most people haven't learned is because a top player hasn't demonstrated how to handle that yet(it'll happen soon enough, yeah Armada does it already and all but he's got lots of other tricks too so we need something like a Fox or Marth to demonstrate anti-laser/Falco tools for people to catch on, probably).
Beat!
Smash Master
That's funny, leffen. I've actually been thinking a lot about those "tech chase" lasers lately, and how to respond to them. I think you have the right idea. Other than PSing, I think instant Wd back/roll are also possible options.
leffen
Smash Champion
I updated my post a little PP.
The main point is really that while lasers are still useful, its no longer something that paces the entire match. Currently (and even more in the past) you could literally just spam lasers and the opponent doesn't have anything to say about it.
With powershielding its no longer "Fox has to camp platforms/spam only fulljumps" or "sheik has to spam jumps". It simply becomes another tool that you can use with different timing, its not more powerful than Falcon's nair when you have good powershielding.
Just like Falcons Nair it'll keep falco able to mixup and dash dance more than he would otherwise but it will no longer be to the extent that it is today, where dash dancing is barely needed for Falco since you get free access to their shields.
The main point is really that while lasers are still useful, its no longer something that paces the entire match. Currently (and even more in the past) you could literally just spam lasers and the opponent doesn't have anything to say about it.
With powershielding its no longer "Fox has to camp platforms/spam only fulljumps" or "sheik has to spam jumps". It simply becomes another tool that you can use with different timing, its not more powerful than Falcon's nair when you have good powershielding.
Just like Falcons Nair it'll keep falco able to mixup and dash dance more than he would otherwise but it will no longer be to the extent that it is today, where dash dancing is barely needed for Falco since you get free access to their shields.
Warhawk
Smash Lord
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2r8ldOUI5s&feature=player_detailpage#t=57s
Zhu's already got that strategy figured out
I agree with you leffen in the sense it should become a move that will keep the opponent on their toes more than necessarily lock them down eventually, but the fact that lasers are also kinda quick and tough to deal with when you're offset momentum-wise is a point in their favor over something like Falcon's Nair.
I'm splitting hairs, but yeah I agree.
I'm splitting hairs, but yeah I agree.
CK Momentum
Smash Apprentice
I used to think that dthrow reverse laser tech chase was a good idea. but if they roll away its really pointless. I don't really like fthrow at percents below 40. On the point of lasers I think it really crippled my ability to space like a normal human, and I'm just barely getting the hang of simple ideas like "if i pull back on the joystick i wont get grabbed. "
What kind of things could I expect to learn if I just stopped using my laser? I use it often when they are on the same level and I can't quite catch them since falco is not a good runner. I'm thinking though that just about every aspect of my game would improve if I quit lasering as often for a bit to see what would happen. But falcos defensive options are still pretty good wtihout laser.
What kind of things could I expect to learn if I just stopped using my laser? I use it often when they are on the same level and I can't quite catch them since falco is not a good runner. I'm thinking though that just about every aspect of my game would improve if I quit lasering as often for a bit to see what would happen. But falcos defensive options are still pretty good wtihout laser.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
KK I think falco's combos are difficult to optimize; I also think falco is ****ing amazing. They're hardly mutually exclusive ^___^
Summonedfist
Smash Lord
gotta love the dynamics of this thread lol
Veetaak
Smash Lord
Team Dynamic is an excellent CSS team with members from Canada and USA
CK Momentum
Smash Apprentice
Also in that Armada vs. Zhu why does zhu always put up his sheild for like a half second at a time?
I thoguht it might be a way for him to vary his laser timing safely around 1:31, but then he does it again around like 2:57 while dash dancing, is he just hoping armada drops an aerial at that exact moment or something?
I thoguht it might be a way for him to vary his laser timing safely around 1:31, but then he does it again around like 2:57 while dash dancing, is he just hoping armada drops an aerial at that exact moment or something?
tarheeljks
Smash Lord
didn't realize it was unknown to them lol. the marths i play abuse it plenty
Warhawk
Smash Lord
He does that a lot in certain matches I've noticed, not just against Armada. If you watch his matches vs M2K he does it as well whenever M2K is within a certain distance of him. I think he does it when he versus certain players/characters that he knows are going to try and punish him for lasers in some manner, so he shields very briefly after his lasers to see what they'll do and then continues. Notice sometimes also he also ran forward a bit feinting a laser approach, then shielded, waited and eventually went back into his own space. It slows his laser game down a bit but makes it harder for people to get in on him and also in some situations allows him to observe his opponent. I'm not for sure though, so hopefully he'll come in and post on it.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
You can be the exception to the rule, then.
Anyway, faulty logic by me aside, I still don't agree with the difficult-to-optimize thing. In a general sense, I think his goal is basically to force people onto platforms or near the edge in a tech chase and then do stuff from there. His dair (and various other moves, but let's focus on dair) sets up everything in his moveset; the problem is that he can't tech chase into it on reaction like the faster characters. So, his effective combo game (IMHO) revolves mostly around edge & platform positioning (where the speed weakness is mitigated). He's very good at setting people up that way, though. Controlling trajectory is pretty easy with this character, IMHO (actually, it's pretty easy with most of the top characters).
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
I mainly said the exception thing because I thought you were targeting me (because I was saying stuff about it being hard to optimize) xD
If it's not particularly difficult to optimize, then, do you think you could look at a situation and easily pick the best move?
Idk, consider something like fox is about at battlefield side platform height in the air, but in the middle of battlefield (right under the top platform). Is falco supposed to jump shine waveland onto a side platform? Shine waveland to the top platform? Should he just try to go for a second hit upair? Should he just dair and try to go for either an uptilt/tech chase?
I mean, situations like that often aren't the hardest to pick the right move, but I feel like the feeling of "bread and butter" is lost pretty quickly with falco after a certain % (outside of dair uptilt on platforms) in situations like this. I think it's not hard to pick a good option, but to consistently pick the ideal one seems difficult to me. I think a lot of stuff hasn't become standard at all yet, but is probably the optimal choice in many situations; an example of this is like, people recently have started doing a lot more wavelanding onto platforms into uptilts. It seems *really* good, but I've only seen it done a few times between zhu/PP/mango/random falcos. For something good enough that it should probably be standard, it's still kinda rare.
If it's not particularly difficult to optimize, then, do you think you could look at a situation and easily pick the best move?
Idk, consider something like fox is about at battlefield side platform height in the air, but in the middle of battlefield (right under the top platform). Is falco supposed to jump shine waveland onto a side platform? Shine waveland to the top platform? Should he just try to go for a second hit upair? Should he just dair and try to go for either an uptilt/tech chase?
I mean, situations like that often aren't the hardest to pick the right move, but I feel like the feeling of "bread and butter" is lost pretty quickly with falco after a certain % (outside of dair uptilt on platforms) in situations like this. I think it's not hard to pick a good option, but to consistently pick the ideal one seems difficult to me. I think a lot of stuff hasn't become standard at all yet, but is probably the optimal choice in many situations; an example of this is like, people recently have started doing a lot more wavelanding onto platforms into uptilts. It seems *really* good, but I've only seen it done a few times between zhu/PP/mango/random falcos. For something good enough that it should probably be standard, it's still kinda rare.
leffen
Smash Champion
Druggedfox- its all read at that point. What move and platform you use will differ in use depending on how you think they'll DI.
Proper DI will almost always end you in the air (if you chose to finish the string) or in a tech chase (which means the *combo*, the "optimizable" part is over).
also - wavelanding onto platforms? either you're talking about something I don't understand or you're talking about an ancient combo follow up that a LOT of people use (at least here in Europe).
anyways, it requires you to read your DI if you wanna do shine->waveland->utilt so it shouldn't be used that often.
Proper DI will almost always end you in the air (if you chose to finish the string) or in a tech chase (which means the *combo*, the "optimizable" part is over).
also - wavelanding onto platforms? either you're talking about something I don't understand or you're talking about an ancient combo follow up that a LOT of people use (at least here in Europe).
anyways, it requires you to read your DI if you wanna do shine->waveland->utilt so it shouldn't be used that often.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
There are choices that cover more options, or allow you to cover options while creating strong reset situations on the options you can't cover (obviously).
I know there's reading involved, but there's often a move choice that's more or less objectively the best choice. Falco combos haven't necessarily gotten to that point imo, or we'd all be doing the exact same things.
I'm not sure how to describe the wavelanding into uptilt thing, since I don't know the specifics of the sitaution (I haven't bothered to actually pay attention when I see it, beyond thinking "oh, more people should do that). If I find a random video where I see it I'll point it out, but I probably won't.
Also, there are ways to optimize tech chasing that put you in a better position than others.
The goal with things like this is to have as little reads/guesswork as possible; one should be searching to create situations the opponent can't do anything about. I think people take for granted all the stuff that's already being done far too much, and aren't really innovating things.
I think mango usually has the right idea with stuff like this; watching his falco combo is drastically different from watching the majority of falco players combo.
I know there's reading involved, but there's often a move choice that's more or less objectively the best choice. Falco combos haven't necessarily gotten to that point imo, or we'd all be doing the exact same things.
I'm not sure how to describe the wavelanding into uptilt thing, since I don't know the specifics of the sitaution (I haven't bothered to actually pay attention when I see it, beyond thinking "oh, more people should do that). If I find a random video where I see it I'll point it out, but I probably won't.
Also, there are ways to optimize tech chasing that put you in a better position than others.
The goal with things like this is to have as little reads/guesswork as possible; one should be searching to create situations the opponent can't do anything about. I think people take for granted all the stuff that's already being done far too much, and aren't really innovating things.
I think mango usually has the right idea with stuff like this; watching his falco combo is drastically different from watching the majority of falco players combo.