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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

Bones0

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I thought if they did a late aerial you could still Shine OoS (or in this case, up-B OoS) before Falco can get another aerial out. Idk how much shield stun shine gives, but with a 5-frame jump and Shine coming out on frame 4, you'd have to pretty much do it perfectly, and that's if it's even possible.

@JPOBS
I don't think he's saying it's necessary, just that it's really good at catching Samus trying to do OoS stuff.
 

JPOBS

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isn't samus' upB oos invincble on startup anyway? throwing in an extra shine won't do anything for you to catch her oos.
 

Druggedfox

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Jpobs im not saying its necessary, but there's no point in hitting samus shield if you don't plan on wearing it down. If you're not technically confident, retreating aerial is totally fine. In situations where I try to double shine I can usually tell if I'm about to mess up the grounded one, and I can just choose to waveland away. Idk, I'm pretty comfortable with knowing what falco's about to do before he does it, regardless of whether or not its what I intended.

And no, I'm not saying you should be catching samus doing OoS stuff. In fact, if you do a perfect double shine they shouldn't even be able to retaliate with an attack (unless you meant some sort of buffer spotdodge). The goal is simply to *wear samus' shield down*. Samus is a ground based character, and because of that she has to rely heavily on her shield, especially vs falco. All I'm saying is that you can make the most out of hitting samus' shield without actually risking anything at all. It's literally a perfectly safe string, that significantly wears down her shield. Single shine accomplishes the same thing, but its a pretty noticeable difference on shield if you throw in the extra shine. You'll find yourself shield poking a lot more often, and just in general you have the knowledge that you can push your advantage a lot more.

Who has a 5 frame jump? Falco has a 6 frame jump and fox has a 4 frame jump. Oh well thats not the point.

Point is, you can **** samus' shield in a 100% safe way that allows you to easily maintain a very strong advantage.
 

leffen

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so look:

Samus up B is fast but worthless because with good DI it wont give you ****.
Samus has a horrible grab, shielding ***** her if you just learn how to shield DI (you can usmash oos ftilt/jab /dtilt etc).

Late aerial to shine is not punishable, and you cannot shine between a shine and a early aerial.
Double shine adds A LOT of options, it is NOT the same as just doing an retreating aerial (which also can be punished by a bunch of characters).

Double shine has a 2 frame window where your opponent can act which means that it will hit people that try to shine oos for example. JC shining after a shine on shield is so fast that it will beat ROLLS, SPOTDODGES, Samus UpB etc because it will hit them before they go invincible and it allows you to make that read (as in, I believe hes gonna try to shine/Roll/whatever now) and shine them and even if you guessed wrong you are still on your opponents shield (which is more damaged) you still have the option to do whatever aerial you want and you can still shine again.

It basically is a extremely low cost - high reward move but sadly noone uses it LOL.
 

JPOBS

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I get what you're saying DF. makes sense.

Leffen whats the proper way to DI samus' upB to minimize effectiveness, assuming you get hit
 

Bones0

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Who has a 5 frame jump? Falco has a 6 frame jump and fox has a 4 frame jump. Oh well thats not the point.

Point is, you can **** samus' shield in a 100% safe way that allows you to easily maintain a very strong advantage.
Falco is in jumpsquat for 5 frames, Fox for 3.
 

tarheeljks

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idk that it's really low cost-- that presumes that you can double shine perfectly. you are going to get up b'd if you mess up, and while you can di out of it it is easy to fall into a situation where you are getting up b'd like a nub on all your approaches

edit: i mean i guess the damage isn't *that* severe in the sense that you are going to catch a death combo, but it disrupts rhythm big time and on a stage like yoshi's or fod samus will land before you and can get a dmash in or something


2:

choknater said:
well the thing is, that's a huge risk because you have to REALLY know that the other character's aerial is even going to be in range of the screw attack. for example the samus might guess that the falco will do an aerial on her shield, but in fact he might miss her shield, or choose to laser instead. if she does screw attack, she's falling in the air and will likely get punished.
depends on the stage. it's pretty low risk if there are plats, even moreso if the samus is comfortable with edgecancelling
 

Druggedfox

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@bones

Oh, thats just semantics then if we're talkin about jumpsquat vs first actionable frame, we're both saying the same thing. The general accepted way I've seen it in the past is referring to fox/ICs as 4 rather than three, etc etc, but I get what you're saying now.

But yeah leffen knows what I'm saying>_>
 

Brookman

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I've decided I can't play falco because his shine is so tiny. . . Maybe I'll just walk forward for a frame from now on before I down + b
 

ArcNatural

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I thought if they did a late aerial you could still Shine OoS (or in this case, up-B OoS) before Falco can get another aerial out. Idk how much shield stun shine gives, but with a 5-frame jump and Shine coming out on frame 4, you'd have to pretty much do it perfectly, and that's if it's even possible.

@JPOBS
I don't think he's saying it's necessary, just that it's really good at catching Samus trying to do OoS stuff.
isn't samus' upB oos invincble on startup anyway? throwing in an extra shine won't do anything for you to catch her oos.
Regardless of wherever you guys are going with this. It just means you can late aerial to shield to bait upB's if Samus tries to upB oos in shield pressure as a mixup.

I've recently switched to only playing Falco in friendlies (Main Fox, Falco always been trash). I'm pretty decent already. But damn shine oos with Falco is so hard compared to Fox for me.
 

ShroudedOne

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I'm scared to pee now knowing that Mogwai is watching me.
Is that avatar of someone named Yuan? If not, then ignore this. If so, then that's really cool.

Also, Faab is really good. Just watched his Falco in Beast II teams.
 

trahhSTEEZY

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yo crush I kinda believe in you so I'll match you vs sinji. he can have a $10 mm if you put in $5.

yo trahh im super terrible against cfal, but I'll point out some things that really stand out:

big things:
1) you FH and DJ too much. its just not useful and is extremely risky. if you're in a situation where you have to DJ to get safe again, you did soemthing wrong in getting yourself there and need to think about it
2) once your opponent has the ledge, let him have it. dont try to force him off. stay on stage to where you can pressure and control his movement whatever he chooses, but not so close that he has options that will kill you if you guess wrong.
3) i like your use of shinegrabs.
4) why the hell did you let him go FD first game? you're clearly way out of your element there.
5) every time you run at him and dont jump you dash attack through his shield except on rare occasion, when you didnt run past your IDA, you DD.

critique:

:07 your run in nair was super not safe. if he had SH naired you would have been ****ed.

:10 dont dash attack heavy characters at 20%!!

:12 bair on shield is only safe if you hit with the tip. you started this out spaced okay and then drifted into him to give him a free shield grab. be more careful; i know it's tempting to just shield pressure CF all day but you cant turn every shield hit into pressure.

Additionally, against CF, an early bair like that is likely to nto ever be safe, because if he sh nairs you fast enough i'm not entirely sure you can land and be safe before you get hit.

:22 uair could not have been the best choice. on any DI he would have had, at worst, a high on-stage recovery situation that he had a good chance of surviving. A nair might have gotten him far enough off stage to reliably edgeguard, and a weak bair might ahve lead to a combo.

:23 dont try to challenge with utilt like that. he's already out of your clutches; let him go and try to retain some stage control or pressure or laser him or something, you can't force winning engagements

:25 getting naired like that should have happened to you way more, BE CAREFUL

:28 you had time to react and not fsmash im pretty sure

:30 you could have grabbed the ledge. your dair thing would have worked too but is harder to time. ledgegrab and then a bair would have been reliable and easy.

:35 two things: one, you need to stop thinking that because you had an advantageous situation 5 seconds ago you need to press for one now. he was free and out of your control and you need to respect that. two, approach with nair - dair has far too little range. you wouldnt have hit him anyway in this situation but it would ahve been way closer.

:45 idj single laser while your opponent is on the ledge? twice?

:48 that shine oos -> bair was nice but risky. shoulda just been in a beter spot. my point here is that you did the right thing but you could have positioned yourself to not need to do something risky.

1:00 this is fun but like, just actually doesnt work. a simple shine -> get back on stage before he does can work, or trying to ledgeguard him, or grab ledge or something. what you did tends to fail badly though

1:07 is just unfortunate :(

1:13 this didnt work last time either bro

1:25 seems like you just need practice edgeguarding cfal, you had this one. charge fsmash i think would ahve been simplest

1:38 dont dair here!!! if he techs in you dont have time to keep ******. try fair or nair mindgames

first stock of game two: DAMN!

3:54 that uair **** doesnt work man

3:56 standing there waiting and then utilting was awful ballsy. if he had had better spacing/timing you woulda gotten ****ed

4:40 noooo dont laser when they're right there

4:45 nice read! i hate it when silly tech slipups mess things up

5:25ish damn that was some slick movement and good choices.

okay i think that's enough.

you play this matchup as if it's one where you can force situations, which you really can't. CF is worse than you, but nto so much so that you can just do what you want. you will find against better CFs that a lot of the times you try to attack or set up more pressure you will get destroyed.

Interestingly, despite that, you havent learned how to edgeguard him well, which is one of the areas you really can force an advantage to turn into a stock most of the time. you should definitely practice that.
foxlisk i cant believe i never saw this, thank god for name searching..thanks so much dude, i'm only like halfway but srsly i can't thank you enough for the time you threw into critiquing :) much love
 

JPOBS

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Regardless of wherever you guys are going with this. It just means you can late aerial to shield to bait upB's if Samus tries to upB oos in shield pressure as a mixup.

I've recently switched to only playing Falco in friendlies (Main Fox, Falco always been trash). I'm pretty decent already. But damn shine oos with Falco is so hard compared to Fox for me.
doesn't samus's upB poke shields with high frequency?
 

FoxLisk

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foxlisk i cant believe i never saw this, thank god for name searching..thanks so much dude, i'm only like halfway but srsly i can't thank you enough for the time you threw into critiquing :) much love
np! glad i could help :)
 

SSBMLahti

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Is that avatar of someone named Yuan? If not, then ignore this. If so, then that's really cool.

Also, Faab is really good. Just watched his Falco in Beast II teams.
Yeah, that's Yuan Ka Fai. Nice Collette avatar, bro.

You obviously know about ToS, you know that there's 9 episodes of a ToS OVA?
 

ShroudedOne

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Yeah, that's Yuan Ka Fai. Nice Collette avatar, bro.

You obviously know about ToS, you know that there's 9 episodes of a ToS OVA?
I heard about it once upon a time, but I haven't watched it. Is it pretty good?

And thanks. I like using her in battle, and thought it was time for a change. =)
 

SSBMLahti

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I heard about it once upon a time, but I haven't watched it. Is it pretty good?

And thanks. I like using her in battle, and thought it was time for a change. =)
Yeah it's pretty good actually. The storyline is the same but there's majors changes in the events, like how the characters meet each other and such.
 

ArcNatural

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doesn't samus's upB poke shields with high frequency?
Yes, I think you can easily lightshield it though, I thought someone like Silent Wolf mentioned doing something like this.

Yea. I hate that. BTW whats the best option oos after the up b?
Really depends on where it happens. Platforms make it a little bit more trickier to figure out where they will end up. I would think some kind of drill combo or dtilt/fsmash setup be fine. Just be wary of CC situations, and if they upB through a platform you could possibly link up a lot of drills and uptilts etc through comboing.

(Edited for Falco because I treated the situation like I was Fox)
 
D

Deleted member

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Oh ya just rub it in, you... =(
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IR3NGAmag5s pwnd

=====

with regards to samus's up-b, good DI ***** it SOMETIMES but not always

either way, good samuses like hugs wouldn't use it dumbly, he is a master of edge canceling plats from up-b and knowing when to drop through them/ not drop through them

i'll admit though, for the rest of the world they really don't know how to use up-b like scrubs and get *****

===

samuses grab is useable if you condition them well

his running non-jc grab makes it look like shes gunna smack you hard

you can counter great grabs though by rolling like a n00b
 

LumpyCPU...

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just spent my last six bucks on some orajel and a small bottle of aleve.

if those two fail at allowing me to sleep, i'll be playing around on platforms with falco until i have work in the morning... fml
 

ShroudedOne

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Yeah it's pretty good actually. The storyline is the same but there's majors changes in the events, like how the characters meet each other and such.
Okay, well thank you. I'll be sure to check it out.

colette blows. Its all about Lloyd, Presea, Genus and Raine.
Here, I will have to respectfully disagree. She does not blow, though she's hard to use (cause she's kinda bad). But I respect that team.

no zelos? pffft switch that scrub presea out.
Meh. I'd rather switch Lloyd out. Presea is an awesome tank.

Zelos is the best character ever!
I can't disagree here.

kratos>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>zelos
Uh...I don't know what to say here...but no, Zelos is slightly better. His story makes him.
 

ShroudedOne

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if you're not playing to be flashy you have no business playing melee.
Well that's not very fair.

you know who my favorite anime character is?

Falco

let's talk about him.
Heh. Sorry...

I've only seen it happen once, which is why it's confusing me. I thought that the weak hit of Falco's dair was a semi-spike, but I've seen it send someone to the side. Is there a particular way to bring this about, and how would one do so?
 

SSBMLahti

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if you're not playing to be flashy you have no business playing melee.
I've said the same thing to everyone I play (which isn't many people). If you're not playing fast and flashy go play Brawl. No disrespect.

I honestly don't see why Light (The Peach) even plays Melee. He just turnip camps and plays slow...Melee is what is it because it's so fast and technical. Of course there are other elements that make it the game it is but you know what I mean.
 
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