Divinokage
Smash Legend
I thought you were gonna say "Spacing does take care of quite a few cookies."
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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Dr Peepee
- Start date
crush
Smash Master
If cookies were in melee then Roy could be cookie cutter
Winston
Smash Master
it's viable if they go for grab, but considering the most common things falcons do after knee on shield are dashdance and gentleman, I don't think it's very good as a standard option...Electric attacks have 50% longer stun on people and on shields, right? How viable an option is shine OoS on Falcon after a knee, assuming they do it pretty late?
Yeah I have a post from you earlier saying +4
Sooooo
Which is it
But yes
Shine OoS from knee shield pressure is bad
ChefOfDeath
Smash Rookie
So if shine OoS is too slow, that means things like full hop or WD OoS are also gonna be too slow. Not much is gonna get you out of there before he can get a jab in, spot dodge and roll might be the only things that give you frame advantage, but you'll generally be punished for doing those. Hmmmm. How do you guys usually deal with it? It sounds like shield DI to mess with his spacing might be the only way to slip outta there.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,559
knee does 18 damage
(18+4.45)/2.235 = 10.something
10 - 9 frames l-canceled landlag
= 1.
I've been wrong before. used to think electric hitlag applied to shields. it doesn't.
crush
Smash Master
Lol you can use math to calculate shield stun?
Math?
Math?
Sinji
Smash Master
your new to this. arn't you crush?
crush
Smash Master
Money match at apex sinji
Bo5 for 5$
Bo5 for 5$
Sinji
Smash Master
crush
Smash Master
Also no Jamaican money. USD only. Expect to pay.
tarheeljks
Smash Lord
heh, the way the markets are going you may want that jamaican dollar.
strongbad can you break down that calc, or point me in the direction of where i can go to see its components
strongbad can you break down that calc, or point me in the direction of where i can go to see its components
JPOBS
Smash Hero
I don't think knee grab on shield is as practical as we are making it out to be. If it was, falcon's would do it all the time for free, or at least get nice 50/50 mixups with kneegrab and knee -> spotdodge bait ****. As it is tho, I don't really see this happening much, its mostly just knee gentlemen so we must be missing something?
daaamn. Dems fightin words!
Sinji
Smash Master
Good luck at Smashfest 13 tommorow. I'm sad I cant go. you teaming up with Kel?
@tarheeljks. lol im aware of the currency.
It's been over 5 hours since you've had that profile picture, Sinji- time to change it.
crush
Smash Master
LOL trlahti
Sinji I would raise it to 20 but I'm young and that's a lot of money to me.
Sinji I would raise it to 20 but I'm young and that's a lot of money to me.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
lol idk who im teaming with. I'll prolly just goof around in teams and use sheik/marf/falcon. I don't like playing teams if its not with my steady partner
Winston
Smash Master
Idk, a ton of stuff is good but didnt catch on for a long time... I'm pretty sure we'll start seeing it regularly someday.
not necessarily as a standard option, but common enough so that it won't be unusual to see.
trahhSTEEZY
Smash Champion
teams is not fun with random people/people you don't plan to gain synergy with
jus' sayin
jus' sayin
JPOBS
Smash Hero
trahhhhhhhhhhhsteezy knows whats good.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,559
its just damage plus 4.45 divided by 2.235 then rounded down.
Sinji
Smash Master
lol. i didn't even read this and i still changed it.
Van.
Smash Ace
idt crush will be easy for sinji
infact, i think crush will beat sinji 3-1
infact, i think crush will beat sinji 3-1
crush
Smash Master
Sinji
Smash Master
Whats the best option after cc a get up attack from Ganon? Any advice?
FoxLisk
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2007
- Messages
- 1,851
yo crush I kinda believe in you so I'll match you vs sinji. he can have a $10 mm if you put in $5.
yo trahh im super terrible against cfal, but I'll point out some things that really stand out:
big things:
1) you FH and DJ too much. its just not useful and is extremely risky. if you're in a situation where you have to DJ to get safe again, you did soemthing wrong in getting yourself there and need to think about it
2) once your opponent has the ledge, let him have it. dont try to force him off. stay on stage to where you can pressure and control his movement whatever he chooses, but not so close that he has options that will kill you if you guess wrong.
3) i like your use of shinegrabs.
4) why the hell did you let him go FD first game? you're clearly way out of your element there.
5) every time you run at him and dont jump you dash attack through his shield except on rare occasion, when you didnt run past your IDA, you DD.
critique:
:07 your run in nair was super not safe. if he had SH naired you would have been ****ed.
:10 dont dash attack heavy characters at 20%!!
:12 bair on shield is only safe if you hit with the tip. you started this out spaced okay and then drifted into him to give him a free shield grab. be more careful; i know it's tempting to just shield pressure CF all day but you cant turn every shield hit into pressure.
Additionally, against CF, an early bair like that is likely to nto ever be safe, because if he sh nairs you fast enough i'm not entirely sure you can land and be safe before you get hit.
:22 uair could not have been the best choice. on any DI he would have had, at worst, a high on-stage recovery situation that he had a good chance of surviving. A nair might have gotten him far enough off stage to reliably edgeguard, and a weak bair might ahve lead to a combo.
:23 dont try to challenge with utilt like that. he's already out of your clutches; let him go and try to retain some stage control or pressure or laser him or something, you can't force winning engagements
:25 getting naired like that should have happened to you way more, BE CAREFUL
:28 you had time to react and not fsmash im pretty sure
:30 you could have grabbed the ledge. your dair thing would have worked too but is harder to time. ledgegrab and then a bair would have been reliable and easy.
:35 two things: one, you need to stop thinking that because you had an advantageous situation 5 seconds ago you need to press for one now. he was free and out of your control and you need to respect that. two, approach with nair - dair has far too little range. you wouldnt have hit him anyway in this situation but it would ahve been way closer.
:45 idj single laser while your opponent is on the ledge? twice?
:48 that shine oos -> bair was nice but risky. shoulda just been in a beter spot. my point here is that you did the right thing but you could have positioned yourself to not need to do something risky.
1:00 this is fun but like, just actually doesnt work. a simple shine -> get back on stage before he does can work, or trying to ledgeguard him, or grab ledge or something. what you did tends to fail badly though
1:07 is just unfortunate
1:13 this didnt work last time either bro
1:25 seems like you just need practice edgeguarding cfal, you had this one. charge fsmash i think would ahve been simplest
1:38 dont dair here!!! if he techs in you dont have time to keep ******. try fair or nair mindgames
first stock of game two: DAMN!
3:54 that uair **** doesnt work man
3:56 standing there waiting and then utilting was awful ballsy. if he had had better spacing/timing you woulda gotten ****ed
4:40 noooo dont laser when they're right there
4:45 nice read! i hate it when silly tech slipups mess things up
5:25ish damn that was some slick movement and good choices.
okay i think that's enough.
you play this matchup as if it's one where you can force situations, which you really can't. CF is worse than you, but nto so much so that you can just do what you want. you will find against better CFs that a lot of the times you try to attack or set up more pressure you will get destroyed.
Interestingly, despite that, you havent learned how to edgeguard him well, which is one of the areas you really can force an advantage to turn into a stock most of the time. you should definitely practice that.
yo trahh im super terrible against cfal, but I'll point out some things that really stand out:
big things:
1) you FH and DJ too much. its just not useful and is extremely risky. if you're in a situation where you have to DJ to get safe again, you did soemthing wrong in getting yourself there and need to think about it
2) once your opponent has the ledge, let him have it. dont try to force him off. stay on stage to where you can pressure and control his movement whatever he chooses, but not so close that he has options that will kill you if you guess wrong.
3) i like your use of shinegrabs.
4) why the hell did you let him go FD first game? you're clearly way out of your element there.
5) every time you run at him and dont jump you dash attack through his shield except on rare occasion, when you didnt run past your IDA, you DD.
critique:
:07 your run in nair was super not safe. if he had SH naired you would have been ****ed.
:10 dont dash attack heavy characters at 20%!!
:12 bair on shield is only safe if you hit with the tip. you started this out spaced okay and then drifted into him to give him a free shield grab. be more careful; i know it's tempting to just shield pressure CF all day but you cant turn every shield hit into pressure.
Additionally, against CF, an early bair like that is likely to nto ever be safe, because if he sh nairs you fast enough i'm not entirely sure you can land and be safe before you get hit.
:22 uair could not have been the best choice. on any DI he would have had, at worst, a high on-stage recovery situation that he had a good chance of surviving. A nair might have gotten him far enough off stage to reliably edgeguard, and a weak bair might ahve lead to a combo.
:23 dont try to challenge with utilt like that. he's already out of your clutches; let him go and try to retain some stage control or pressure or laser him or something, you can't force winning engagements
:25 getting naired like that should have happened to you way more, BE CAREFUL
:28 you had time to react and not fsmash im pretty sure
:30 you could have grabbed the ledge. your dair thing would have worked too but is harder to time. ledgegrab and then a bair would have been reliable and easy.
:35 two things: one, you need to stop thinking that because you had an advantageous situation 5 seconds ago you need to press for one now. he was free and out of your control and you need to respect that. two, approach with nair - dair has far too little range. you wouldnt have hit him anyway in this situation but it would ahve been way closer.
:45 idj single laser while your opponent is on the ledge? twice?
:48 that shine oos -> bair was nice but risky. shoulda just been in a beter spot. my point here is that you did the right thing but you could have positioned yourself to not need to do something risky.
1:00 this is fun but like, just actually doesnt work. a simple shine -> get back on stage before he does can work, or trying to ledgeguard him, or grab ledge or something. what you did tends to fail badly though
1:07 is just unfortunate
1:13 this didnt work last time either bro
1:25 seems like you just need practice edgeguarding cfal, you had this one. charge fsmash i think would ahve been simplest
1:38 dont dair here!!! if he techs in you dont have time to keep ******. try fair or nair mindgames
first stock of game two: DAMN!
3:54 that uair **** doesnt work man
3:56 standing there waiting and then utilting was awful ballsy. if he had had better spacing/timing you woulda gotten ****ed
4:40 noooo dont laser when they're right there
4:45 nice read! i hate it when silly tech slipups mess things up
5:25ish damn that was some slick movement and good choices.
okay i think that's enough.
you play this matchup as if it's one where you can force situations, which you really can't. CF is worse than you, but nto so much so that you can just do what you want. you will find against better CFs that a lot of the times you try to attack or set up more pressure you will get destroyed.
Interestingly, despite that, you havent learned how to edgeguard him well, which is one of the areas you really can force an advantage to turn into a stock most of the time. you should definitely practice that.
mers
Smash Ace
Against Falcon, just remember that he literally can't do anything to you unless you let him. Every time he tries anything, hit him. If he doesn't try anything, shoot him until he does.
It's actually that simple. Falcon has nothing on your bair/utilt.
It's actually that simple. Falcon has nothing on your bair/utilt.
TheZhuKeeper
Smash Champion
You'd be surprised...
choknater
Smash Obsessed
haha mers falcon vs falco is not THAT simple
falcon's aerials are just really good in general and can convert any tap into a hard punish. falco has to just try to shut him down, which zhu does pretty well
falcon's aerials are just really good in general and can convert any tap into a hard punish. falco has to just try to shut him down, which zhu does pretty well
FoxLisk
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2007
- Messages
- 1,851
this is only true when you're already pressuring. once you're in a situation where you have CF locked down and you're in control of things you can generally shut off his options very efficiently. but his defensive options overall are okay and, since he can turn any aerial hit into a ztd if he gets a good guess or two, you have to respect that a LOT
G
genkaku
Guest
Peepee vs falcon is so much fun to watch.
not as easy to learn from, though.
not as easy to learn from, though.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,559
this doesnt apply to the neutral state. after you've applied pressure and you're in, yeah, but your bair/utilt isnt going to magically beat his dash dance. he isnt that bad of a character. even lasers dont completely nullify his neutral game.
mers
Smash Ace
IDK. I mean, obviously I was exaggerating somewhat, but I still think what I was saying is essentially true. True, Falcon's punish game is nuts, but his dash dance can't actually hit you by itself. Plus, of all the characters in the game, Falco is the one least threatened by his DD.
Also, Falco's punish game on Falcon is just as nuts. Easy combos, and it's extremely difficult for Falcon to get out of pressure situations and reset to neutral.
Against Falcon, I just play extremely passively, and it works great. Easily my best matchup.
Also, Falco's punish game on Falcon is just as nuts. Easy combos, and it's extremely difficult for Falcon to get out of pressure situations and reset to neutral.
Against Falcon, I just play extremely passively, and it works great. Easily my best matchup.
Bones0
Smash Legend
I kinda get what you're saying Mers; I used to feel pretty similar about the matchup vs. Falcon, but if you play a really experienced Falcon you'll realize pretty quickly that if you aren't keeping them on the defensive, playing from neutral is difficult as ****. Lasers are pretty much the only thing Falco has going for him. Falcon is faster, has a dash dance that is literally 3-4 times as far, his nair has mad range, random knees will out-prioritize any bairs or uptilts you try to throw out trying to catch lazy approaches, and god-forbid you get faked out and hit by a double jump stomp or get grabbed out of his huge *** dash dance. It's sort of like the matchup gets exponentially scarier the better the players. Mediocre Falco vs. mediocre Falcon is pretty easy cause they can't get those crucial followups on grabs and tech chases, but if they can get just 1 or 2 reads after a grab or tech, **** snowballs FAST.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
LMAO! get 'em zac. too good.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
... So much for that incredible CV, shroomed.. where you at!? =P
choknater
Smash Obsessed
props to zac for attending every tournament in norcal ever