PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[ShroudedOne]

Apparently, lag from hitting a shield is the same as lag from hitting an actual body, just perceived differently. But if it comes down to timing your aerials weirdly so that they can't predict your pattern, how is Mango so far ahead?

And theoretically, it's possible to keep someone in shield stun forever, right?

@Sinji: That's another thing. Not only do I have to keep my mind on changing up my pressure so that they can't shield grab me, but I have to zone them...

(Maybe it's only me, but I feel like this topic isn't explored enough...)

 

[SSBMLahti]

Apparently, lag from hitting a shield is the same as lag from hitting an actual body, just perceived differently. But if it comes down to timing your aerials weirdly so that they can't predict your pattern, how is Mango so far ahead?

And theoretically, it's possible to keep someone in shield stun forever, right?

@Sinji: That's another thing. Not only do I have to keep my mind on changing up my pressure so that they can't shield grab me, but I have to zone them...

(Maybe it's only me, but I feel like this topic isn't explored enough...)

We should all just make Mango write a book on shield pressure like he mentioned in Stab's podcast.

Sinji, how many times do you change your avatar a day?

 

[Van.]

Apparently, lag from hitting a shield is the same as lag from hitting an actual body, just perceived differently. But if it comes down to timing your aerials weirdly so that they can't predict your pattern, how is Mango so far ahead?

And theoretically, it's possible to keep someone in shield stun forever, right?

@Sinji: That's another thing. Not only do I have to keep my mind on changing up my pressure so that they can't shield grab me, but I have to zone them...

(Maybe it's only me, but I feel like this topic isn't explored enough...)

Timing on a shield is different than hit.

It is not possible to keep someone in shield stun forever. Even a multishining fox.

In general you want to do late bair/nair shines on their shield.


Oh and usually be behind their shield, because in general other OoS options hurt less than grab

 

[crush]

^ what about shinegrabs?

 

[Strong Badam]

Timing on a shield is different than hit.

False. The only difference is that on-shield hits are not added to the stale moves queue.

additionally multishining fox does keep them in shieldstun forever, however they can shield DI out of range and grab by just holding away.

 

[Van.]

oh yeah, and i guess technichally you should shinegrab as soon as possible, since the garunteed option is better.

The timing seems very different, if its just an illusion.

edit: i think samus up b beats multishine on shield.

 

[Wenbobular]

They look so different so most people consider them different I think <_< Who cares what AR says

If Samus's up-b beats it then Bowsers up-b definitely beats it haha
Invincible frame 1?

 

[crush]

yeah shine grab is pretty good even though falcos grab game is meh. i usually do 1-2 shine+aerials then just shinegrab

 

[Da Shuffla]

False. The only difference is that on-shield hits are not added to the stale moves queue.

Do you mean timing for the attacker, or the timing for the one in shield?

 

[Van.]

They look so different so most people consider them different I think <_< Who cares what AR says

If Samus's up-b beats it then Bowsers up-b definitely beats it haha
Invincible frame 1?

i thought bowsers was 4 frames. i've never heard of it being invincible like samus

 

[Strong Badam]

Do you mean timing for the attacker, or the timing for the one in shield?

attacker. it's obviously different for the one in shield because shieldstun != hitstun and doesn't scale with damage.

They look so different so most people consider them different I think <_< Who cares what AR says

good players

shine repetitions are 8 frames and it has 7 frames of shieldstun. if you try up-b out of shield in that 1 frame, you lose it to 1 frame of jumpsquat and you get shined. this discussion is largely irrelevant because multishines isn't relevant to the metagame.

bowser's up-b is invinc 1-4 and hits frame 5. samus' is invinc frame 1-5 and hits frame 4.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I thought I saw a gif where Bowser's up-B had invincibility on a good portion of the frames on which the hitbox was out...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1el8shTIP6E At about 2:36. Isn't that invincibility?

 

[Sinji]

edit: @sinji With Falco? I thought strong bad was talking about his foxes shield pressure

It can be both characters.

@Sinji: That's another thing. Not only do I have to keep my mind on changing up my pressure so that they can't shield grab me, but I have to zone them...

(Maybe it's only me, but I feel like this topic isn't explored enough...)

As I pointed out about Mango falling back nair>fsmash, they cant shield grab you because firstly, you can was zone them out, secondly the opponent couldn't shield grab you because of the fall back nair (hitbox only touching the shield).

Yea. I feel this topic needs to be discussed more. It's the least talked about.

We should all just make Mango write a book on shield pressure like he mentioned in Stab's podcast.

Sinji, how many times do you change your avatar a day?

Not relevant but thanks for asking.

Timing on a shield is different than hit.



Oh and usually be behind their shield, because in general other OoS options hurt less than grab

One method to get behind their shield is by running passed them>pivot nair>shield pressure. It's useful but it still depends on the timing.

 

[Da Shuffla]

attacker. it's obviously different for the one in shield because shieldstun != hitstun and doesn't scale with damage.

When I hit a shield, I have to slightly delay my L-Cancel because I feel more hitlag from hitting a shield than a person. This isn't true?

 

[crush]

I thought it was and that's what it feels like too but I guess not

 

[JPOBS]

When I hit a shield, I have to slightly delay my L-Cancel because I feel more hitlag from hitting a shield than a person. This isn't true?

no.

The illusion probably comes from the fact that the shield is bigger than the characters body. This logically means that you will be hitting the shield earlier than you would if you were to hit their body because the shield extends further. Keep in mind though we're talking a in-game difference of only a couple of "inches"

Point being, hitting a shield imparts on the attacker the exact same amount of hitlag as hitting a person.

 

[LumpyCPU...]

edit: ^^^^ what he said.

 

[stingers]

what about hitting a space animal?

 

[Wenbobular]

I wasn't aware that good players gave two ****s about frame data <_<

 

[crush]

@stingers 99% sure its the same...

 

[JPOBS]

what about hitting a space animal?

I'm not sure if you're being serious or...what?

in case you were, space animals are no exception.

 

[LumpyCPU...]

something awesome: after you condition someone to waiting out your aerial>shine>early retreating aerial, you use their patients to get behind their shield instead of retreating. this way you can stay on their **** and it puts you in a better position for the scenario in which they've learned to buffer a roll away.

 

[ShroudedOne]

So, when shield pressuring, is the main goal to place your opponent under stress until they do something that you can punish? Or is it to reduce the dependence they have on their shield? (if that makes any sense).

 

[crush]

So, when shield pressuring, is the main goal to place your opponent under stress until they do something that you can punish? Or is it to reduce the dependence they have on their shield? (if that makes any sense).

to peer pressure them into quitting smash and giving you the win

 

[genkaku]

So, when shield pressuring, is the main goal to place your opponent under stress until they do something that you can punish? Or is it to reduce the dependence they have on their shield? (if that makes any sense).

only goal: BREAK THE SHIELD

The point is to cut off options. There are only so many things that you can do OoS and depending on what your shieldpressure looks like the response should be predictable. If you pay attention you should be able to anticipate what they're going to do and react accordingly. No one is just going to sit there in their shield 'cause a) it's scary as ****, and b) shinegrabs. Get the hit, take the stock or position. It's not really any different than just hitting them with anything at that point, they just have far less options to avoid getting hit.
The only reason it's as complicated and intense as it is is because you have to be so precise so quickly.
Plus it's really cool.

 

[crush]

Plus it's really cool.

when i first started watching melee i thought that was basically the only reason LOL

 

[Sinji]

The only way you can get oosp is by Shield DI after the shield stun.

 

[ChefOfDeath]

Electric attacks have 50% longer stun on people and on shields, right? How viable an option is shine OoS on Falcon after a knee, assuming they do it pretty late?

 

[Mogwai]

iirc, a late knee has a pretty sizable frame advantage on shield.

 

[Fried Ice Cream]

Don't do that shine OoS after a knee, as Fox I constantly get my butt slapped for it, and I can't imagine Falco having more success.

 

[Sinji]

Electric attacks have 50% longer stun on people and on shields, right? How viable an option is shine OoS on Falcon after a knee, assuming they do it pretty late?

the hit stun plus the frames of the knee results in a frame advantage. You have to shield Di towards falcon in order to shine oos. Shield low if they knee late. Depending on if the output of the knee is from the hitbox, You have the oppertunity to WD oos.

But the most rewarding option whould be to shield DI towards them then shine oos. I hope I helped.

 

[Mogwai]

I'll wait for strong bad to comment since he's more on top of his frame data than I atm, but as I understand it, knee -> grab on shield will beat at least Falco's shine OoS.

 

[ChefOfDeath]

iirc, a late knee has a pretty sizable frame advantage on shield.

Interesting. Say I'm being techchased but Falcon is just a tiny bit late, giving me a few paltry frames of freedom before my face gets kneed through the back of my head. What are my best choices then? Roll behind him?

 

[MeijinAkuma]

I'll get some vids up later next week (hopefully), but I wanted to discuss the VS sheik MU.

The Sheik I play against is pretty good at dealing with the shield pressure, it seems like when I get grabbed I get tech chased into oblivion regardless of mixing up every DI, tech direction, and tech in place. (Plus buffering a roll and trying to shine out).... and unfortunately for me the ledge game is his favorite part so I don't think I've ever recovered despite a menagerie of different attempts with ledge canceling sideBs, shine stalls, different firebird angles... what have you.

Obviously he isn't perfect all of the time, but when he is playing good it's pretty rough. So general thoughts and ideas? I know falco's moves eat through sheik's and I feel pretty comfortable in the center of the stage.. but one grab seems to pretty much end my stock.

 

[Strong Badam]

iirc, a late knee has a pretty sizable frame advantage on shield.

+1 on shield.

knee grab ties with shine oos so it loses.

 

[Van.]

One method to get behind their shield is by running passed them>pivot nair>shield pressure. It's useful but it still depends on the timing.

Just hop behind them during one of your nairs/bairs.

 

[Strong Badam]

Electric attacks have 50% longer stun on people and on shields, right? How viable an option is shine OoS on Falcon after a knee, assuming they do it pretty late?

that only applies to hitlag and not shield hitlag.

sorry im mobile right now otherwise id be able to answer questions more effectively :/

 

[Mogwai]

+1 on shield.

knee grab ties with shine oos so it loses.

wow, I thought it was +3, nm then.

shine OoS would lose to knee jab then or basically any spacing trixies, so I still wouldn't try it, but I guess that's good to know if he spaces right on top of you.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6E2iL5FKr0

posting here cause this thread is da bess

can i get some critique vs falcon? if the match isn't that great to you, heres another vs falcon same day;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pzlOgKWqRY

 

[Brookman]

Knee grab is the best pressure cooking mix-up. Just have to get really good at the set-up. Spacing does take care of quite a few options.