PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Veetaak]

Someone post something already, it's too quiet here today

 

[Moooose]

ive been waiting for that mango post i was promised

 

[Brookman]

I've been fapping in anticipation. My penis has all but shriveled into nothing.

 

[LumpyCPU...]

first.
the standard falco approach: laser laser short hop aerial.
the standard reaction: shield grab the aerial.

then.
the standard falco approach: late aerial to shine so they can't grab after the aerial.
reaction: wait till after the shine to shield grab.

then.
falco: follow the shine with early retreating dair/nair to hit the attempted grab.
reaction: stop going for the grab all together and patiently wait for the barrage of attacks on your shield to roll or wd oos.

moral of the story... most people don't mix it up enough.
the average players saw the best falcos doing the retreating aerial after the shine on shield and in a year it became standard. random scrubs (like me) do that ****.

i bet average players are on auto pilot 90% of the time they play friendlies.
not really trying to adapt or mix up anything. just standard pillaring attempts and lasers when you aren't close enough for that.

KFC once taught me that almost every falco has a set number of lasers they'll shoot before they go in for a short hop dair (2 for most people but 3 is common), and they won't change it when you catch onto it because they aren't even aware that they've developed this habit.

when we think of mix ups, we think of very specific things. we never question or basic habits or stylistic confinements.

- king out -

 

[JPOBS]

i dont do the retreating aerial anymore. That stuff is for punks. I stay in dat shield all day err day tryna break that mother****er. never scared

 

[Rubyiris]

lasers suck. just initial dash > wavedash until they move then grab them.

 

[EWC]

I still just try to multishine

 

[Kason Birdman]

first.
the standard falco approach: laser laser short hop aerial.
the standard reaction: shield grab the aerial.

then.
the standard falco approach: late aerial to shine so they can't grab after the aerial.
reaction: wait till after the shine to shield grab.

then.
falco: follow the shine with early retreating dair/nair to hit the attempted grab.
reaction: stop going for the grab all together and patiently wait for the barrage of attacks on your shield to roll or wd oos.

moral of the story... most people don't mix it up enough.
the average players saw the best falcos doing the retreating aerial after the shine on shield and in a year it became standard. random scrubs (like me) do that ****.

i bet average players are on auto pilot 90% of the time they play friendlies.
not really trying to adapt or mix up anything. just standard pillaring attempts and lasers when you aren't close enough for that.

KFC once taught me that almost every falco has a set number of lasers they'll shoot before they go in for a short hop dair (2 for most people but 3 is common), and they won't change it when you catch onto it because they aren't even aware that they've developed this habit.

when we think of mix ups, we think of very specific things. we never question or basic habits or stylistic confinements.

- king out -

lol this is so true, my falco is always on auto pilot. which is why i think my falcon is better, it actually thinks.

i dont do the retreating aerial anymore. That stuff is for punks. I stay in dat shield all day err day tryna break that mother****er. never scared

NEVER STOP!

 

[genkaku]

the people I've played with the last couple of weeks retreat rather than shield so I can't experiment with shield pressure. I'm too busy chasing them down.
So frustrating, haha.

 

[EWC]

You have to make them shield

 

[straight8]

yeah cause im going to sit and let falco approach me with his lasers, and then play this little game where he has tons of options and i have almost no reward from reading any of them.

I'll pass.

 

[Kason Birdman]

the people I've played with the last couple of weeks retreat rather than shield so I can't experiment with shield pressure. I'm too busy chasing them down.
So frustrating, haha.

use the gun son!

 

[LumpyCPU...]

it sounds gay, but when i find myself chasing as falco, i come to a realization...
i have a gun and i'm using a code for infinite ammo.
unless we're playing on the HRC stage, they can't run forever.

also, if you're in their shield all day err day and you "never stop" then it becomes very obvious that you will just attack their shield until you yourself are vulnerable.

how often do falco players really break shields?
is that subconscious desire we all have really worth adopting a style of mindless aggression as opposed to actually thinking and adapting?


edit: for the record, i really suck at melee and don't even play anymore. i've just been thinking about it A LOT lately. lol

 

[Kason Birdman]

never stop

good advice... I think imma try this

 

[genkaku]

I doooooo, but he just eats the damage/capes.
Actaully, it's because he's used to CC dsmashing anything that would normally be shielded.
It's hard to counter stuff by playing conservatively in friendlies where I really just want to hit things.

 

[LumpyCPU...]

good advice... I think imma try this

glad i could help... -_-

 

[Kason Birdman]

haha im jk man. yeah i know what your saying. its too true for sure.

 

[Deleted member]

my thoughts on aggression to humor kevin:

I think aggression is a mentality and a mindset more than a strategy born of a sincere desire to kick *** and take names. since i can't teach you a mentality on the forums, let's go with the strategy anyway.

Strategically, falco's aggression has not changed. Ideally, you pressure until you get your clean hits and then you proceed with your attack plan. However, we can only hone that so much and all of falco's tools have been recycled to death. Instead, it's time to start looking differently at some of the tools we have, and to start looking at a different approach.

First with the approach since it covers both. At some point, your opponent will defend against you successfully and make their own retaliation. At the moment Falco defends against the opponent, you have an opportunity to pursue aggression, but it's where most falcos stop and don't go for it. Namely, if the opponent tries say a safe attack through a platform, or a low shield stab, or all those other "reliable" pokes at you, those are the ones you need to be challenging. Your new approach to aggression should be out of a defensive position. The new tools I want you to learn are good WD/platform dropping OOS. The ability to attack out of shield to anywhere from a platform will make you SO much more dangerous to attack. You mainly want to regain position and start attacking at the same time when you do this. So basically try this:

from shield on a platform, after your shield gets hit:

-platform drop dair/bair/shine/grab
-WD off the platform towards them to dair/bair
-WD off of platform away from them into laser and canceling it w/ the landing. I know PS is the ideal platform height for it.

Attacking an opponent on a platform above you is no longer the safe option it used to be. We need to show them why.

Also, you guys need to start doing WD off the edge. No excuses for difficulty, it's an AMAZING way to work out of a disadvantageous position and can severely punish standard edge guards.

As for the old tools, it's absolutely necessary to start doing shine OOS and WD shine OOS. Grab is no good vs opponents that can space and his other OOS options leave falco open to easier retaliation. Ex, dair OOS is too easy for the opponent to punish. It pretty much needs to be shine, WD into shine, or just look for something else. Tighter gameplay and new opportunities for punishment are the next steps for the aggression game.

tldr:

shine OOS
WD shine OOS
platform drop aerial OOS
WD off platform OOS
WD up from edge during invincibility

Attack aggressively out of a disadvantageous position to regain control

kevin hit me up on aim after like 11 tonight so we can talk about this more. you were looking for an answer and i think this is it.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I think there's more to it than that but it's a great concept to work in.

I'll probably be on tonight but if not I'll try to talk to you soon.

Got stuff

 

[Winston]

Does "WD shine oos" refer to waveshine oos or to wavedash out of shield and then shine? If it's the latter, I can't think of any situations where it would be fast enough to work against the "safe pokes" that we are trying to counter.

 

[Lightsyde]

Can someone do a rehash on inputs for platform dropping OOS or point me to a thread about it? It's one of the only things I haven't played with much but it seems like it'd be disgustingly good if you can get the hang of it.

 

[Niko45]

Does "WD shine oos" refer to waveshine oos or to wavedash out of shield and then shine? If it's the latter, I can't think of any situations where it would be fast enough to work against the "safe pokes" that we are trying to counter.

what character do you play now?

 

[Winston]

Haha, still Fox. I guess "we" was a weird choice of words. I just said it cause I was trying to participate in the discussion

I do play falco as a hobby though so "we" isn't totally inaccurate

 

[Wenbobular]

*Edit*
Whatever ~_~

 

[LumpyCPU...]

being "strategically aggressive" a step up for your oh so common "mindless aggression"
mindless aggression is not pressuring anyone. they see what's happening.

i guess people don't really shield drop to aerial very often, do they? hmm... why not?... let me ponder.

 

[Deleted member]

Does "WD shine oos" refer to waveshine oos or to wavedash out of shield and then shine? If it's the latter, I can't think of any situations where it would be fast enough to work against the "safe pokes" that we are trying to counter.

shield > WD > shine. if ICs ccan grab peach in downsmash lag, falco can do better.

 

[Wenbobular]

being "strategically aggressive" a step up for your oh so common "mindless aggression"
mindless aggression is not pressuring anyone. they see what's happening.

i guess people don't really shield drop to aerial very often, do they? hmm... why not?... let me ponder.

Probably because it's technically demanding ... like ledgedashing ~_~

 

[stingers]

Can someone do a rehash on inputs for platform dropping OOS or point me to a thread about it? It's one of the only things I haven't played with much but it seems like it'd be disgustingly good if you can get the hang of it.

you have to like...roll your control stick from 3/9 o'clock to 6 o'clock on ur controller. its kind of hard cuz if u mess up various things that u probably dont want to happen might happen

 

[#HBC | Mac]

Does "WD shine oos" refer to waveshine oos or to wavedash out of shield and then shine? If it's the latter, I can't think of any situations where it would be fast enough to work against the "safe pokes" that we are trying to counter.

the latter is useful in a plethora of situations

 

[stingers]

C/D: SF players are a lot better at their games then we are at ours

 

[Winston]

the latter is useful in a plethora of situations

I know it's useful vs things like dsmashes on shield. I just thought Umbreon was talking about a different set of situations, i.e. spaced poking moves/low lag moves on shield.

Unless it's useful vs those too in which case please elaborate

 

[EWC]

I got the impression that he was talking about usingit to punish stuff like spaced ftilts from sheik. I'f I remember the frame data right, this either just barely works or just barely doesn't. Either way, it seems pretty good, because even if you don't have straight up frame advantage, you still are in a position where the only things she can hit you with are stuff that is easy to CC.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

he was talking about choosing to disrespect people's shield pressure

 

[Deleted member]

he was talking about choosing to disrespect people's shield pressure

You realize that no one has continuous shield pressure except fox/falco anyway right?

I just think it's time to start using tighter timings and a handful of underused tactics to switch from defense mode back to aggression.

 

[Druggedfox]

@darksyde

To shield drop you just have to get your controller to a certain point far enough towards "down" on the control stick. The only way speed affects this is if you move your control stick down too slowly in which case you'll just keep angling your shield more and more downwards... but you have to be pretty slow to be doing it like this. To learn it just slowly move your control stick down and you'll shield drop eventually, and try to figure out the exact part of the control stick you need to hit. Then just work on moving to it faster; it's honestly not that hard to abuse, because you can actually be moving your control stick down *while* they're hitting your shield, so as soon as you get out of stun you'll have reached the shield drop point of your control stick.

/shield dropping is broken

 

[Mahone]

lol @ intuition thinking drpp doesn't already know all that ****... even i know that **** and i play jiggs....

Also jiggs has just as good shield pressure... you have the mango (jab-jab-dtilt) and the mahone (jab-jab-ftilt)... what more do you need?

 

[stingers]

i've been using the mango for years, but the mahone looks pretty cool. i might try that out sometime

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

You realize that no one has continuous shield pressure except fox/falco anyway right?

I just think it's time to start using tighter timings and a handful of underused tactics to switch from defense mode back to aggression.

Idk... attacking from a defensive position seems like one of the riskiest things to do. If you have a legitimate read or use it as a mixup, fine, but nothing more.

 

[LumpyCPU...]

C/D: SF players are a lot better at their games then we are at ours

BY FAR

/shield dropping is broken

broken?
i don't find myself shielding on a platform often enough to consider it's addition to my falco game a revolutionary change.

i will say it's underused for now, and i'll prolly eat my words if it becomes the next pbody.

lol @ intuition thinking drpp doesn't already know all that ****... even i know that **** and i play jiggs....

Also jiggs has just as good shield pressure... you have the mango (jab-jab-dtilt) and the mahone (jab-jab-ftilt)... what more do you need?

hugs was king of this kinda stuff.

he conditions you with a specific combination of jab(s), ftilt, and wd back.
fun to watch.

 

[JPOBS]

idk man, shielding on a platform is like the best thing you can do from a defensive position. that, and getting the **** down.