PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Brookman]

Smashfest at my place bits

be there

I'm down .

 

[CommonerCoffee]

I hope this is the right place to ask this type of stuff but here goes nothing. This is something that has really been bothering me for a while. I can waveshine easily when I'm not hitting anything. Like if I'm just trying to show off techskill, I can do them easily but if I'm hitting a shield or another character, I simply can't get out of the shine. Is there different timing for wavedashing out of the shine when hitting an opponent or a shield?

I know you can't teach my fingers how to move but maybe you guys have some advice to give me anyway? I really want to learn Falco and I have been for a while but I always gave up because I could never seem to ever wavedash out of hitting an opponent with a shine, something I know is absolutely essential to playing Falco.

Also, question about TV Lag. I'm also sorta hesitant to learn Falco because of varying TV lags throwing off timing for super technical characters like Falco. Was wondering if you guys have any opinion on the matter and if the varying lag is adjustable once you get used to it.

 

[Brookman]

There is indeed a different timing. The game creates lag as a result of the impact (there is a difference even between hitting a character and hitting shields, and even these timings can vary.)

Essentially, You need to SLOW THE **** DOWN. The game is 60 frames a second.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I know you can't teach my fingers how to move but maybe you guys have some advice to give me anyway? I really want to learn Falco and I have been for a while but I always gave up because I could never seem to ever wavedash out of hitting an opponent with a shine, something I know is absolutely essential to playing Falco.

You CAN teach your fingers how to move.

Hitting something with any move creates something called "hitlag" which is basically a short time where both characters freeze and the person being hit can input Smash DI. If you don't account for this lag when hitting something, your timing will be wrong. To remedy this, start a game with a lvl1 bowser on 0.5 damage ratio and waveshine him. While you're at it, practice shffling aerials into shines on him and stuff like that.

Also, question about TV Lag. I'm also sorta hesitant to learn Falco because of varying TV lags throwing off timing for super technical characters like Falco. Was wondering if you guys have any opinion on the matter and if the varying lag is adjustable once you get used to it.

First i would suggest playing on a TV without lag. As a general rule, stay away from HDTVs of any kind.

After putting however much time I have into the game, my fingers don't need to watch my character to know whats happening on screen. At this point, I can pretty much play on any laggy TV with minimal losses (this also comes in handy for drunk smash). I still hate playing on a laggy TV because it does cause problems.

 

[CommonerCoffee]

So is there like more time in between before I input a jump command as opposed to when I hit nothing with my shine?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Pretty much. Also, I edited my post with an answer to your other question.

 

[CommonerCoffee]

Much thanks. I've been trying to find practice drills to do for Falco so I really appreciate the Bowser trick. I'll try this out for like a week and hopefully I'll see some progress.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Remember when practicing, practice in short instances. I would suggest spending no more than 10 minutes at a time in the game. Its very easy to get distracted and/or form [bad] habits. Mentally, you will weaken yourself if you start to think of the CPU as an "enemy" and physically you will weaken yourself if you mistake choices the CPU makes for guaranteed follow ups. 10 minutes is enough time that you won't get bored or lose focus but you will still get work done. Also, don't forget that when practicing, if you get frustrated take a break. You aren't accomplishing anything by forcing yourself to do something in anger.

edit- this is coming from a guy that practiced against computers for [literally] years

 

[Druggedfox]

That Bair stuns a long time dude, and I'm pretty sure I get hit with one of those silly lingering hitboxes as Peach touches the ground so I can't do anything before the Dsmash hits my shield.

I shield in the first place because I'm afraid of rising Bair OOS. Very, afraid. I cant dash away in time before it comes out I'm almost positive but if I could then that would be a way better game plan for me.

I don't mind that he DIs away on his Nair OOS I can still punish that if I'm paying attention I think if I remember watching my P5 matches correctly, but Peach's OOS stuff scares me a lot mostly because trading with/losing to it sucks. I don't really know how to handle that better because I haven't thought about it much and don't really have decent Peach experience, but I could bounce around ideas for it I suppose.

Can't really form any coherent statements right now, but maybe something along the lines of:

Don't be hitting peach's shield in situations where that can happen; if you have the time to cross him up with a dair/nair he's probably scared and conditioned to shield-->react to what you do. You should just delay your aerial a lot more since delay aerial-->shine is a true blockstring. If I recall correctly you had the same issue vs xif at TO6 where you got float cancel baired OoS continuously and you never really fixed it.

Even if you don't do it as a true blockstring, you should be able to at least delay it enough so that your shine comes out before any aerial OoS, and then you can just waveshine away from him which is the effective equivalent of dashing away, its just safe because no one can do anything about waveshining away if you're behind them.

Just to reiterate... armada is mad comfortable being in shield; as I said at the beginning, if you have enough time to cross him up with a dair but you're hitting too high, chances are that if you delay your aerial just a bit more hes not going to suddenly hit you before your aerial comes out (at least, certainly not on the first couple times you do this). Obviously its a risk, but he should be scared enough of falco if he's just waiting in his shield and not already directly challenging you with a nair OoS before/as you aerial. It's like hitting any character's shield... they can hit you before your aerial comes out, but if they're sufficiently comfortable in their OoS game or have any respect for your pressure... they probably won't hit you until they let you do this a few times. Also at lower %s this is a pretty good idea because the worst you'll eat is a nair OoS at low % which doesn't really stop your momentum, and might even put you at frame advantage (kinda like how you can not give a **** about sheik's nair OoS when you're at low enough % that it won't hit you anywhere. Obviously at higher %s I'd be a bit more careful but... yeah.

Not that you don't know this, but maybe with lack of peach experience blah blah blah it might help to hear it again. Idk, this shouldn't be too much of an issue since its pretty much falco's standard problem with his shield game that he has with all characters, its just that peach/fox/falco are the only characters that really have a manner of hitting falco when he does a cross up dair so falco players are too used to having it easy and being able to dair super early.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Can't really form any coherent statements right now, but maybe something along the lines of:

Don't be hitting peach's shield in situations where that can happen; if you have the time to cross him up with a dair/nair he's probably scared and conditioned to shield-->react to what you do. You should just delay your aerial a lot more since delay aerial-->shine is a true blockstring. If I recall correctly you had the same issue vs xif at TO6 where you got float cancel baired OoS continuously and you never really fixed it.

Even if you don't do it as a true blockstring, you should be able to at least delay it enough so that your shine comes out before any aerial OoS, and then you can just waveshine away from him which is the effective equivalent of dashing away, its just safe because no one can do anything about waveshining away if you're behind them.

Just to reiterate... armada is mad comfortable being in shield; as I said at the beginning, if you have enough time to cross him up with a dair but you're hitting too high, chances are that if you delay your aerial just a bit more hes not going to suddenly hit you before your aerial comes out (at least, certainly not on the first couple times you do this). Obviously its a risk, but he should be scared enough of falco if he's just waiting in his shield and not already directly challenging you with a nair OoS before/as you aerial. It's like hitting any character's shield... they can hit you before your aerial comes out, but if they're sufficiently comfortable in their OoS game or have any respect for your pressure... they probably won't hit you until they let you do this a few times. Also at lower %s this is a pretty good idea because the worst you'll eat is a nair OoS at low % which doesn't really stop your momentum, and might even put you at frame advantage (kinda like how you can not give a **** about sheik's nair OoS when you're at low enough % that it won't hit you anywhere. Obviously at higher %s I'd be a bit more careful but... yeah.

Not that you don't know this, but maybe with lack of peach experience blah blah blah it might help to hear it again. Idk, this shouldn't be too much of an issue since its pretty much falco's standard problem with his shield game that he has with all characters, its just that peach/fox/falco are the only characters that really have a manner of hitting falco when he does a cross up dair so falco players are too used to having it easy and being able to dair super early.

Right as all.

Guess I am used to trying to cross up to catch the OOS thing or WD back but also be safe and I can't have it that way vs Peach. I'll have to think up a new strategy since delaying the aerial and just mixing it up seems kinda risky to me still(maybe it is all I have, but I'll see what all I can think of).

Thanks for the input. =)

 

[Fried Ice Cream]

Couldn't you just full jump away after the shine? Your jump is fast as hell, gets you way too high for Peach to follow and puts you above Peach, which afaik is a good position for Falco vs Peach.
Well, maybe that doesn't work as well against Armada >_>...

 

[Dr Peepee]

I don't like being above Armada lol. Trading with Nair and Uair suck. Maybe going to a platform is alright but it can get predictable so it'd have to be a mixup and not a go-to type of thing.

 

[Fried Ice Cream]

I'm wondering, what is your plan to get in Armada? Usually, when I play a Peach (note: I'm Fox, but I think same sort of applies to Falco), I have to go around the stage a bit on the platforms, wait till the Peach tries to hit me, leave the platform and THEN get in, but for that I need to be above the Peach.
Do you just go in with a laser, pressure his shield and then move away again? I really could use some help against Peach (playing Fox, but the approach doesn't change that much between Fox and Falco)!

 

[Druggedfox]

Yeah np, its nothing new but from what I can tell its all falco's really got (besides basic baiting etc) if you plan on approaching xD

If you can come up with anything though, that'll be great; I guess the creativity's been flowing since genesis. I'll look forward to seeing something at apex hopefully. Curious though, what've you concluded on stages vs armada? You always seem to want yoshi's story, but... meh, it just feels so dangerous vs peach, even if I'm only watching.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I'm wondering, what is your plan to get in Armada? Usually, when I play a Peach (note: I'm Fox, but I think same sort of applies to Falco), I have to go around the stage a bit on the platforms, wait till the Peach tries to hit me, leave the platform and THEN get in, but for that I need to be above the Peach.
Do you just go in with a laser, pressure his shield and then move away again? I really could use some help against Peach (playing Fox, but the approach doesn't change that much between Fox and Falco)!

Well if you're Fox you can shoot him, platform camp him like you're doing, or even disrespect his float since you're so fast a dash FH Nair can cut through a lot of what Peach can do unless she gets grounded fast enough to CC Dsmash or predicts you're going to attack and tries to Fair early(which you might be able to react to, if not predict).

I would say more on that for Fox but I'm tired. I hope someone else is willing to expound on what I said though. =)

Yeah np, its nothing new but from what I can tell its all falco's really got (besides basic baiting etc) if you plan on approaching xD

If you can come up with anything though, that'll be great; I guess the creativity's been flowing since genesis. I'll look forward to seeing something at apex hopefully. Curious though, what've you concluded on stages vs armada? You always seem to want yoshi's story, but... meh, it just feels so dangerous vs peach, even if I'm only watching.

I do plan on approaching because when I tried chillin I just got stuck in that stupid corner with him floating there waiting to snipe me with Fair. I have to learn how to screw with the float and then I can take the shield game from there. Gonna have to get tricky for that one probably but I'll see what happens.

Yoshi's is great for killing but that float trap is a huge pain. Maybe I'll work a platform strategy there next time because the killing potential is seriously too good for me to pass up I feel. I can't strike down to anything better for me I don't believe since Armada always wins that stupid RPS and that means I can't get BF right away LOL.

Anyway, I think there's a good reason why Armada hasn't taken me to DL yet, and that's because his silly float thing can't corner me well there. I'm considering either laming it up or at least being more patient/defensive on that stage next time(I'm becoming desperate for CPs anyway all the stages are getting banned lol).

PS is great but it'll probably get banned <.<

Oh wait no it won't he keeps banning KJ64 vs me. That's a good thing too because I'd really hate to take him there and actually use that strategy......guh

FD isn't worth the space to me because CGs are stupid and I hate them to death. I dunno though I did fine vs him there at P5 I guess I should consider it again. Eh we'll have to see how that one plays out but I'd rather not do it.



And if you're wondering why I'm not responding on aim it's because I wanna go to sleep or something lol so I guess I'm doing that now. XD

 

[Druggedfox]

Nah its cool, sleep's pretty important or something >_>

Yeah I figured you want to approach, but you never know... *pew pew*. Yeah I was wondering about DL, since I was kinda surprised neither of you actually tried to take the other there. I definitely get the feeling that armada performs better when he can corner you, so the combined size of DL + the platform heights should essentially make that a non-issue. Being above armada isn't half as big a deal if you're on DL rather than yoshi's I'd imagine.

Hmm armada bans KJ64? That leaves Rainbow doesn't it... or do you not want to go there. Not going to FD is pretty understandable; its a double edged sword and not wanting to risk it isn't too crazy =P

Lmao on not being able to get BF right away though... you seem to do pretty well on that stage every time you guys end up there. Interesting stuff though, I'll probably bother you later about stuff

 

[Fernandez]

Hit him when he lands... that's a pretty good summary of the matchup. If he jumps up he has to land; don't aerial underneath him immediately after lasering. Dash dance or wavedash to bait it then punish awkward landings. Obviously there's a lot more to the matchup than that, but that sounds like a pretty big gap in the way you're playing the matchup

yea thats actually my strategy on fd but on platform levels its really hard cuz they can run around on platforms aswell.
its really hard for me to make a fox scared and let him shield alot for some reason, i can do it way better in most other match ups but foxes always play so fast and jump around so much =[

 

[Mew2King]

genesis2 is absolutely, by far, the worst ive ever seen you play in the past year

 

[Mogwai]

There is indeed a different timing. The game creates lag as a result of the impact (there is a difference even between hitting a character and hitting shields, and even these timings can vary.)

no there isn't

the timing can vary based on how stale your move is which affects the ammount of hitlag, but hitting shields vs. hitting people are the same in terms of hitlag generated unless I'm gravely mistaken.

 

[Lightsyde]

CGs are stupid and I hate them to death.

You and everybody else always gave me so much **** for talking about this exact thing.

El oh ells

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

hitlag is the same between shields and non-shields, to my knowledge too

hitlag is sorta strongbad's thing tho, not mine

 

[Bones0]

I'm pretty sure you guys are gravely (lol) mistaken. I notice a difference between shield hitlag and body hitlag. I used to practice shield pressure by putting a CPU on a high handicap, but then someone posted you can use a Starman in training mode to replicate the hitlag of shields and the difference is pretty clear.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Just checked in AR. Hitting fox with falco's shine causes 5 frames of hitlag. Hitting foxes shield with falco's shine causes 5 frames of hitlag. Shine was fresh both times.

 

[Veetaak]

genesis2 is absolutely, by far, the worst ive ever seen you play in the past year

Talk about dropping a bomb on the boards :O

 

[Sinji]

I'm wondering, what is your plan to get in Armada? Usually, when I play a Peach (note: I'm Fox, but I think same sort of applies to Falco), I have to go around the stage a bit on the platforms, wait till the Peach tries to hit me, leave the platform and THEN get in, but for that I need to be above the Peach.
Do you just go in with a laser, pressure his shield and then move away again? I really could use some help against Peach (playing Fox, but the approach doesn't change that much between Fox and Falco)!

When peach floats, Nair.

When shes at a low % like 0-5 and she floats, Nair>utilit>utilt>uair>uair.

 

[Mew2King]

how is that dropping a bomb?

 

[Mogwai]

I'm pretty sure you guys are gravely (lol) mistaken. I notice a difference between shield hitlag and body hitlag. I used to practice shield pressure by putting a CPU on a high handicap, but then someone posted you can use a Starman in training mode to replicate the hitlag of shields and the difference is pretty clear.

the reason you use starmen is pretty straight forward... you don't want them to go anywhere, lol.

the main reason people perceive shields as a different hitlag is because they hit them ealier due to how a shield extends past a character's regular bodybox, especially when being tilted up. at least that's always been my understanding.

 

[Sinji]

The 5 frames of hit lag gives falco the frame advantage. I love this game.

 

[Bones0]

Well obviously that's the main purpose of the Starman, but I swear it feels completely different. I will trust the AR data though. It must be in my head. There's no chance it's just the shine that has a set hitlag, is there? Maybe nair or dair have more hitlag than normal? I'm baffled...

Also, I'm pretty sure hitlag is the same for each player (except for electric attacks), so Falco gains no frame advantage from hitlag. I think you mean shield stun. I could be wrong. I feel like I don't know anything anymore! D:

 

[Veetaak]

how is that dropping a bomb?

I think what made me think that it was a "bomb" was that you added "by far"

I guess PP feels the same though so it's really not a "bomb"

The funny thing is that when PP plays his "worse" he's still placing at the top lol

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Idk i thought what m2k said was more of a compliment or positive remark ("you are better than what that one result said")

 

[Niko45]

Nah it was a diss. The beef is on imo.

 

[Sinji]

I think what mewtwo said was encouraging. Being told something bad will make you a better player in the long run.

 

[Brookman]

unless I'm gravely mistaken.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

damn thats ****ed up m2k

 

[Mogwai]

not gonna lie, I loled.

 

[Bamesy]

If Armada always waits for people to hit his shield... you could try NOT attacking at all... and landing in your shield/WDing into a shield... then Peach aerials and nothing happens (unless she FCs) and you hit her, or she WDs out (which is the smart thing to do and probably WILL happen and she'll try dsmash or grab) in which case you shine OOS or aerial or whatever (Shine OOS against FCed aerials too sometimes) or she rolls/etc and gg.

Just a thought. If they're accustomed to shielding a lot, it's worth a try to not do anything during some fast pace and wait for them. :/
Mango loves approaching with shield... and shield is arguably the best aggressive approach there is... fuse it with a baited attacking approach. :D

Air approach without aerial > shield.

 

[Divinokage]

That is assuming you can fight him on equal terms. Armada's reaction time and spacing is out of this world. I don't think he waits for you to do something, he plays it safe most of the time and when he gets a hit in then you get ****ed up lol. The shield sucks usually because you might get grabbed, this happens a lot to me... You really have to check your spacing to see if shielding is safe... if it is then you might be able to do something OOS.. if he has good spacing then you probably won't be able to. =P

 

[Fågelholken]

Anyone know the current status of Mango? Like, is he going tryhard all the time now, or is he back to sandbagging? And how does he feel about not winning Genesis 2?

 

[Pi]

everyones fair beats peachs float