PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Dr Peepee]

Mango is already giving pre-johns for gen 2.

So PeePee, you gonna take it down?

I have to ignore that kinda stuff in the spirit of competition. Mango's still going to try to win despite his "pre-johns" so all that matters is making sure I beat him silly when we play.

That's what I intend to do.

 

[Roneblaster]

U guys gonna do that $50 puff v falco at gen?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Probably Thursday night yeah lol.

 

[Roneblaster]

Megahype

10hypes

 

[Divinokage]

I have to ignore that kinda stuff in the spirit of competition. Mango's still going to try to win despite his "pre-johns" so all that matters is making sure I beat him silly when we play.

That's what I intend to do.

I'll beat him silly first then you won't get face to him. =P

 

[strawhats]

Wait...what's this about mango giving pre-johns? When did he john?

@pp: did u and mango agree to do a MM(puff vs falco)? OVER 9000 HYPES

 

[JPOBS]

honestly, i think mango's puff is gonna get bodied by PP.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Wait...what's this about mango giving pre-johns? When did he john?

@pp: did u and mango agree to do a MM(puff vs falco)? OVER 9000 HYPES

Mango has rearranged his priorities which replaced winning Genesis above all else to partying and still trying hard to win. Those are basically what these "pre johns" are referring to.

And yes we did agree to do the MM. Mango when you see this I hope you do better than you did in teams at WGF. =)

 

[strawhats]

Lol mango, partying while trying to win. Let's see how that goes. Well he must be practicing with that puff if he challenged u to a $50 mm. This might also be his method of character selection before the tournament. Whether he goes puff, falco, or fox will be interesting to see.

 

[Walt]

I think he said a while ago he plans to go Fox against PP but that might not still stand. I hope he goes Fox only because his Fox is entertaining as hell.

 

[strawhats]

I think it depends if he's having a great fox day. You never know with fox sometimes you're on and other times you're just not feeling it. Even at the highest levels. I will say his fox at its best is scary as ****.

 

[Lovage]

Mangos gonna ****

 

[JPOBS]

lol reminds me of the old EC vs WC beef from back in the day like pre-ROM

that was before everyone got all kisskiss hughug friendly after brawl almost ruined us.

 

[bdenhawk]

what are some good ways to pressure/intimidate opponents using falco (maybe a little deeper then just "laser" or "dd in front of them")? or if anyone has any good links to threads to pressure or intimidation in general that'd be swell. thank yaaa

 

[Wenbobular]

Laser -> they shield -> dashdance around is hella intimidating yo ...

 

[Dr Peepee]

what are some good ways to pressure/intimidate opponents using falco (maybe a little deeper then just "laser" or "dd in front of them")? or if anyone has any good links to threads to pressure or intimidation in general that'd be swell. thank yaaa

If you have stage control or your opponent is shielding, then Bair works wonders. Auto Canceled(AC'd) or just delayed, as long as you work that move then people have a hard time dealing with you(don't spam it obviously, but threaten with it and follow it up with different moves sometimes).

Any sort of approach feints you can come up with are good because the approach itself can be weak at times. Lasers build up anticipation for the approach, so it leaves a lot of leeway to play with WD'ing or DD'ing in the meantime(or even without lasers occasionally since people expect them so much).

A solid shield pressure game tends to intimidate on its own since it shows people can't count on you messing up for free kills and such. Mixed in double shines and shine grabs and aerial(delayed or immediate retreating) shines tend to keep your opponent guessing too since they're typically looking for visual cues at similar times to punish Falco on(which scares them quite a bit if you do it right).

Basically if you get someone ground level on your terms make sure you push that advantage so that the psychological benefits extend past the initial encounter if you can.

 

[genkaku]

woah, get back off topic, falco boards.

 

[NewJerusalem]

What's the best way to combat a grab happy Fox? Especially one that Up throws.

 

[Dr Peepee]

You'd want to keep them from getting the grab because once you're grabbed life sucks lol.

If you're getting grabbed a lot by Fox then you're losing momentum I bet. Try to work your control on the ground level of stages more(laser game in particular), and keep a clear mind if Fox is putting the squeeze on you(WD OOS will probably help if I had to guess).

 

[NewJerusalem]

Haha yeah it happens frequently, even worse once I get him to his final stock. He becomes even more aggressive. I do lose tons of momentum when he grabs me.

I'm going to work on my laser game to keep him at bay but its going to be difficult. haha oh well.

thanks for the help Prof.

I have to get the WD OOS down then lol

 

[Lightsyde]

Kevin vs Mango

I cannot wait. East Coast for life.

 

[choknater]

maybe with puff

 

[Melomaniacal]

Safest way to approach a dash-dancing Marth?

 

[Druggedfox]

Shoot lasers?

 

[Lightsyde]

If they are dash dancing close they can react to lasers and dash attack under them unless you're purposely shooting super low lasers, in which case they can react with SH fairs.

I guess you should add lasers + a lot of movement. I like to try to call an Fsmash or something way early and roll in/spot dodge to Utilt or shine. I feel like unless you start rolling A LOT, it's a decent way to gain position some Marth's (I know this sounds like a terrible idea but I swear it;s worked once on almost every good Marth I've played). Also, I love WD OOS vs Marth so if you think he's gonna aerial or do a move out of DD, run up shield -> WD -> Push your advantage however. If you think he's gonna just run up and grab, spot dodge *****.

The main thing is running up lasers and Dair'ing constantly will normally get you trashed by Marth's (or most anybody). Bair is super good vs Marth too once you get him in the air. Shinegrab -> Upthrow any time you get them to shield will normally dramatically change the momentum, just because Marth sucks when you're under him.

Hope this helped.

 

[unknown522]

Darksyde, they cannot option select you like that.

on top of that, if they dash attack under your laser, it's both noticeable and you can shield first anyway when you miss.

 

[Bones0]

I've been meaning to ask this for a while. Is it even possible to nair shine or dair shinelate enough onto a Fox's shield without them shining OOS? Last time I played Chillin my approaches (which in hindsight were REALLY predictable) were just getting shut down every time. I can't remember if I was FFing after the aerials correctly or if I wasn't shining soon enough after landing. Assuming Fox can do it no matter what, what about Falco's shine OOS?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Without looking at frame data I believe there is a late enough dair/nair into shine that can prevent any possible retaliation with the vulnerability being before the late aerial and after the shine.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Pretty much what Sveet said. Also you don't really need to FF if you're doing it late enough anyway. Make sure you're doing the shine fast enough maybe?

 

[Strong Badam]

i like empty shorthop -> stuff as every character
falco is no exception to the "every character" clause.

the shield pressure question: they have time to do shine oos or even grab before the late dair if you do it late or after the early dair if you early dair. or any other aerial for that matter. It's a mix-up. You won't be able to get it every time, but if you watch your opponent you might be able to get it a few times in a row and really put some pressure on your opponent.

 

[oliman]

Having trouble with luigis. cant combo the *****es and they always get me in some for srs shield pressure. my only real option that i've come up with is sitting back, lasering, and bairing if they come close, which is so boring. any ideas?

 

[unknown522]

did you know that falco's d-air has so much stun that around 30% or so, you can combo d-air -> u-tilt without l-cancel?

Having trouble with luigis. cant combo the *****es and they always get me in some for srs shield pressure. my only real option that i've come up with is sitting back, lasering, and bairing if they come close, which is so boring. any ideas?

someone else asked a similar question recently and I responded.

 

[Veetaak]

I also hate fighting Luigi. He always attacks me in the middle of my combos. I guess you have to do bits by bits to increase his % and not go for ultra combos like you would do on Fox/Falco/Falcon etc

 

[unknown522]

You can still do like 40% combos to luigi. It's not so bad.

Just remember that his air mobility is bad, and it is easy to space around his moves because of that.

oh yeah, platforms are great.

and lasers are too good.

 

[mers]

luigi is wonderfully susceptible to dair-dair-dair-dair etc. combos. don't shine him.

 

[unknown522]

u-tilt is great too.

Shine is good for platform combos. Yoshi's story is ****, and DL is good for combos. It doesn't matter if luigi has a chance to recover, because lasers and d-air turns his chances of recovery to 0%.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Go back a couple/few pages to find Luigi advice. Getting hit out of combos means you should bait those moves and punish them instead, or look for more reliable ways to follow up.

 

[leffen]

I play vs luigi a lot since my teammate ajp_anton mains him and I also know a lot about the character overall so I decided to do a small write up on it Feel free to input ****.
Imo the matchup is clearly in falcos favor but not by that much, I'd say 60-40 at best for falco.

"It doesn't matter if luigi has a chance to recover, because lasers and d-air turns his chances of recovery to 0%. "
Bull****, try again. Misfires, Down B, edgecanceling side b, being good at sdi'ing+teching makes it pretty god damn hard to edgeguard luigi at times. Of course you can always just take the ledge if he cannot reach onto the stage but then he is either at really high percent or he ****ed up BADLY.
Oh and what do lasers do to luigis recovery lol, he it often boosts his side b recovery and he lags little enough to not lose much if you pick his jump.

"luigi is wonderfully susceptible to dair-dair-dair-dair etc. combos. don't shine him. "
This! Just dairing is really **** at times, and then mixing up nairs->dair once you've figured him out is mad good.

Honestly though, I really dont feel like sitting back and camping him is a good solution.
While it works vs mediocre players good players will just start powershielding the lasers and eventually find a way in (remember, bair has almost no reward in comparison to Luigis grab/dsmash/utilts/ftilts).
I usually just bait an answer to the lasers and punish it accordingly with a nair, dair, grab , utilt etc and then go to town with him (always watch out for the nair though). Luigi kinda sucks at gaining stage control once he lost it.

As for stages YS is actually really good for Luigi (altho it is "****" if luigi DI's badly and gets double shined, which shouldnt really happen except at 80%+). The low platforms aid his weird jumps really nicely and he can very easily reach you if you try to play a keep away game. The short length of the stage also makes it hard to corner him since he gets across the stage with invincibility by just wavedashing up from the ledge >_>. Another factor is that the ceilings are really small. This is usually good for falco but it helps luigi way more in the matchup. Luigis kill moves are all really sub par, especially if given enough ceiling to work with so that you can DI em correctly but on YS he can easily kill you with a combo finisher or just a random ftilt/nair compared to DL or BF where falco would survive without much trouble.

However, when falco KO's luigi it is almost always from a edgeguard (get him far enough from the stage and then dair/bair him when he tries to reach the ledge/land on stage). The times he doesnt die because of a larger ceiling is often far enough to give falco a guaranteed edgeguard KO anyway, which takes away a huge part of the backlashes from playing on a stage with big ceilings.

With that said, Battlefield is luigis worst stage by far(in the matchup and overall). He cant use his side B properly on the edges, he cant sweetspot because of horrible ledges (falco doesnt suffer from this btw) and the platform heights are really bad for him. If he bans that then I'd take him to DL or PS. FD is probably his best stage if they can powershield consistently, so ban/strike that if the luigis good. YS is the go to ban if you arent really uncomfortable on FoD.

Hope this helps

 

[oliman]

yeah thanks man that was really helpful

 

[unknown522]

I play vs luigi a lot since my teammate ajp_anton mains him and I also know a lot about the character overall so I decided to do a small write up on it Feel free to input ****.
Imo the matchup is clearly in falcos favor but not by that much, I'd say 60-40 at best for falco.

"It doesn't matter if luigi has a chance to recover, because lasers and d-air turns his chances of recovery to 0%. "
Bull****, try again. Misfires, Down B, edgecanceling side b, being good at sdi'ing+teching makes it pretty god damn hard to edgeguard luigi at times. Of course you can always just take the ledge if he cannot reach onto the stage but then he is either at really high percent or he ****ed up BADLY.
Oh and what do lasers do to luigis recovery lol, he it often boosts his side b recovery and he lags little enough to not lose much if you pick his jump.

"luigi is wonderfully susceptible to dair-dair-dair-dair etc. combos. don't shine him. "
This! Just dairing is really **** at times, and then mixing up nairs->dair once you've figured him out is mad good.

Honestly though, I really dont feel like sitting back and camping him is a good solution.
While it works vs mediocre players good players will just start powershielding the lasers and eventually find a way in (remember, bair has almost no reward in comparison to Luigis grab/dsmash/utilts/ftilts).
I usually just bait an answer to the lasers and punish it accordingly with a nair, dair, grab , utilt etc and then go to town with him (always watch out for the nair though). Luigi kinda sucks at gaining stage control once he lost it.

As for stages YS is actually really good for Luigi (altho it is "****" if luigi DI's badly and gets double shined, which shouldnt really happen except at 80%+). The low platforms aid his weird jumps really nicely and he can very easily reach you if you try to play a keep away game. The short length of the stage also makes it hard to corner him since he gets across the stage with invincibility by just wavedashing up from the ledge >_>. Another factor is that the ceilings are really small. This is usually good for falco but it helps luigi way more in the matchup. Luigis kill moves are all really sub par, especially if given enough ceiling to work with so that you can DI em correctly but on YS he can easily kill you with a combo finisher or just a random ftilt/nair compared to DL or BF where falco would survive without much trouble.

However, when falco KO's luigi it is almost always from a edgeguard (get him far enough from the stage and then dair/bair him when he tries to reach the ledge/land on stage). The times he doesnt die because of a larger ceiling is often far enough to give falco a guaranteed edgeguard KO anyway, which takes away a huge part of the backlashes from playing on a stage with big ceilings.

With that said, Battlefield is luigis worst stage by far(in the matchup and overall). He cant use his side B properly on the edges, he cant sweetspot because of horrible ledges (falco doesnt suffer from this btw) and the platform heights are really bad for him. If he bans that then I'd take him to DL or PS. FD is probably his best stage if they can powershield consistently, so ban/strike that if the luigis good. YS is the go to ban if you arent really uncomfortable on FoD.

Hope this helps

this is a good post. I completely agree with the stages as well, but I think falco ***** luigi on YS though. You can get him off the stage pretty quick, and get a lot of gimps off of almost any direction thanks to the shine and d-air.

IMO it's 7-3 for falco though, but meh.

I much rather use falco than fox vs luigi, though it's really bad vs fox too.