PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[prog]

abate is my homie. his falco is pretty genius, unorthodox...and if i'm saying its unorthodox, wat. mr. nanney, why is reverse bair so ****?

 

[Sinji]

Then I suggest doing things differently than you ordinarily would so that M2K will not know how to handle you as easily at any rate. He understands habits and playstyles fairly well so anything unusual will cause him to falter until he's able to adapt.

Yea that makes sense.

M2k adapted on this vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSylN2HoNSk&feature=feedf

 

[Little England]

lol something vro told me about ckit that was along the lines of this (but in his head)

Ah yes haha.

 

[genkaku]

I'm not sure how to use falco's throws. I've just been downthrowing and trying to predict the techroll or dtilting the missed tech, 'cause I dunno what to do but maintain spacing after the other throws lol.

The best I've been able to come up with is upthrowing fastfallers, regrabbing, forward throwing and following up with a SHFFLdair. They're usually caught off guard and won't react in time to escape it, but at the moment I'm not playing particularly great players, so I can't tell how viable this is.

 

[Strong Badam]

uthrow bair can be effectively a combo even if it doesn't depending on their DI
the other throws are bthrow/fthrow and they're more to put your opponent at a positional disadvantage, allowing you a chance to apply pressure & get another hit via a string rather than a legit combo. also used to get the opponent offstage.
dthrow can cg fox i think depending on their DI in NTSC

 

[Dr Peepee]

lol something vro told me about ckit that was along the lines of this (but in his head)

I may make a post about the way I think of other players eventually as well.

abate is my homie. his falco is pretty genius, unorthodox...and if i'm saying its unorthodox, wat. mr. nanney, why is reverse bair so ****?

I don't know man. I've been meaning to get on that junk so long ago though lol.

I'm not sure how to use falco's throws. I've just been dthrowing and trying to predict the techroll or dtilting the missed tech, 'cause I dunno what to do but maintain spacing after the other throws lol.

Well with Falco's throws you typically do it to gain positioning or play with their DI to get a better followup(like Bthrow regrab on Fox if they wanted to DI your original throw in or were caught offguard for example). A ton of stuff is situational or matchup based, but throwing someone up is a good way to work your Bairs or get a combo, and Fthrow can set up an edgeguard or tech chase or guessing game situation(see: Lambchops using Fthrow), and Bthrow and Dthrow are really situational or used by the edge for funny results. Anything beyond that you usually have to get more specific about.

I don't think Dthrow tech chasing is all that reliable with Falco, even for one time. I've done it vs Puff a little with decent success and I saw Zhu do it vs hugs with some cool success but otherwise I'm not sure how good it is.

 

[FoxLisk]

has anyone ever experimented with using dthrow to push your opponent to the edge? i was thinking the other day that it might be kinda cool. like if you grab someone in the middle of the stage and dthrow them and call tech in place/no tech, you can just dthrow shine and then WD toward whichever way they went and gain a whole bunch of ground. on like YS against some characters this would effectively put them with their backs tot he ledge.

 

[Jake13]

Falco can't move quick enuff to really punish unless you super call the tech

But for just positional adv I think it'd be interesting

Edit: reread, dthrow shine *****

 

[Sinji]

I find dthrow shine useful. It covers a lot of ground.

 

[JPOBS]

Downthrow is good on platforms, you can get down smashes for free most of the time. Its good when they are at like 80%+ and upthrow won't really lead to any followup and the downsmash would have some nice knockback.

not perfect because they can DI/sdi the lasers off the platform, but it does well enough.

 

[Dr Peepee]

has anyone ever experimented with using dthrow to push your opponent to the edge? i was thinking the other day that it might be kinda cool. like if you grab someone in the middle of the stage and dthrow them and call tech in place/no tech, you can just dthrow shine and then WD toward whichever way they went and gain a whole bunch of ground. on like YS against some characters this would effectively put them with their backs tot he ledge.

That's a pretty cool mixup if nothing else. I suppose the usefulness may vary by character or percent and all that but it seems worth playing around with.

 

[Melomaniacal]

I like going for down throw, laser, regrab. Of course the laser has to be a complete guess with which direction your opponent is going, but it's epic as hell when it works.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

hmm...a pp thing to do would be dthrow, guess reverse laser and if they tech in the direction you guessed, you shine. if they teched in the direction you lasered, you have some advantage with the laser stun, and if they teched in place/no tech, you might get a laser->fsmash.

lol options. **** falco.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I do that when I regular tech chase sometimes but wouldn't if I did this lol. Not enough time. =p

 

[JPOBS]

I do it with Fthrow. no guessing involved. just shoot the laser in front and react to their tech. its decent

 

[Sinji]

Very decent. That was one of Bombsoldier's fav. tactics. Its gets you opponent nervous and if they have bad habits, then you can exploit it and punish.

 

[Jake13]

Yo how does staling dair effect the timing and stun on someones shield (same question goes to all aeriels plus shine)?

I know strongbad will know this

 

[AvengerAngel]

The shield gets less shieldstun (14 frames fresh, 12 stale), but you also get less hitlag (7 frames fresh, 6 frames stale). Less hitlag means you can fastfall one frame before than usual
As we're on the fresh/stale topic again... hitting anything that's not your opponent won't stale your moves. i.e. Brinstar pillars, Shy Guys, shield etc. won't stale your aerials. I've tested it xP

 

[Redact]

Check your pm's please drpp and reply to me (8

 

[Strong Badam]

Yo how does staling dair effect the timing and stun on someones shield (same question goes to all aeriels plus shine)?

I know strongbad will know this

dair: does 12 damage right? floor((12+4.45)/2.235) = 7 frames of shieldstun. floor((12/3)+3) = 7 frames of hitlag.
1 stale is floor(damage*.9)
10 damage
shieldstun = floor ((10+4.45)/2.235)=6 frames of shieldstun. hitlag = floor((10/3)+3)=6 frames of hitlag.
10 stales is floor(damage*0.55)
6 damage
shieldstun = floor ((6+4.45)/2.235) = 4 frames of shieldstun. hitlag = 6/3+3 = 5 frames of hitlag.

being stale generally makes the timing for l-canceling sooner and it decreases your frame advantage/increases your frame disadvantage on shield.

don't know where you got 14 and 12 (??) frames of shieldstun, AvengerAngel. additionally I tested Brinstar's pillars and came to the conclusion that it does stale your aerials. knee'd a pillar and then kneed my opponent and it did 16% damage.

 

[AvengerAngel]

I got the shield stun right. Just check SCOTU's frame data for pillaring or Phanna's frame data for shield stun. How did you get your shield stun? Lol, if Dair had 6 frames of shield stun Falco would get shield grabbed everytime he hit a shield, EVEN with super-delayed aerials. You would get grabbed during your l-cancel frames >_>

I *did* test on Brinstar, and Dair didn't get stale. This topic says Falcon's Fair deals 16% damage. If you did 16% after you hit the pillars, it didn't get stale (seems pretty obvious to me).
No offense intended, but you should really check your infos before you post something *this* wrong D:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10201545&postcount=35
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9016367&postcount=6176

etc.


Edit: I've read your post again. I think we're saying the same thing, just in two different ways lol. What I meant is: Dair gives 14 frames of shield stun in TOTAL (considering hitlag as well). If you wanna know your frame advantage, you have to subtract the hitlag. Does it make sense now? xP

 

[mers]

I thought knee did 18 percent? Also, Avenger, are you taking into account the fact that grabs take 7 frames to come out?

 

[AvengerAngel]

You're right, knee does 18%. I've just finished testing it on the GC: it does 18% fresh, even AFTER destroying both Brinstar's pillars :x

I was taking into account the grab's starting frames ofc, but as you can see I've edited my post because I suppose Strong Bad and I were in fact saying the same exact thing. Strong Bad was subtracting the hit lag from the total amount of shield stun frames, while I was just giving the total amount of shield stun frames and the hit lag frames. Hit lag frames are, after all, a part of the total shield stun frames you get when your shield gets hit. That's why I counted them in the total shield stun frames. Strong Bad's shield stun frames are the "advantage" frames you get AFTER the hit lag is gone :x

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=2690107&postcount=22
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=2712857#post2712857

 

[OverLord]

All this stuff won't help you against me Avenger. I'll grab you whatever.

 

[JPOBS]

I think its a difference in customs causing this confusion. It seems customary that Europeans include hitlag data when discussing this kind of thing, but in the West we just don't mention them because hitlag is assumed to be the same for both players. this is the second time i've seen an argument like this lol

 

[Strong Badam]

Edit: I've read your post again. I think we're saying the same thing, just in two different ways lol. What I meant is: Dair gives 14 frames of shield stun in TOTAL (considering hitlag as well). If you wanna know your frame advantage, you have to subtract the hitlag. Does it make sense now? xP

Hitlag is not shieldstun though. It's irrelevant when calculating frame advantage.
and no, 6 frames of shieldstun would not get you grabbed lol, even after landing lag you can still shine quite a few frames before their grab will come out.

and okay @ the staling stuff, I was testing in Project M not Melee since that's what I had up so whatevs.

SCOTU/Phanna's frame data is incorrect at times, as is SDM's at times. Look at his Gentleman frame data rofl. I was using the actual formula the game itself uses.

 

[AvengerAngel]

I didn't know SCOTU/Phanna's data was incorrect D:
I see what you mean, but considering hit lag as a part of shield stun, 7 frames of hit lag AND 7 frames of shield stun would mean -9 frames of disadvantage at least when hitting with a low Dair. It's as JPOBS said a difference in customs, lul. Being used to consider shield stun as PURE shield stun frames + hit lag frames, when I read your post I thought you were implying Dair had actually 0 frames of pure shield stun and 7 frames of both hitlag/shield stun. That would make Falco get ***** pretty much everytime he hits a shield (hit lag ends as soon as he touches the ground and then your opponent has a 9 frames window to shield grab you during your l-cancel lag). Does it make sense? Basically, we just mean two slightly different things with "shield stun" (I'm counting the hit lag as well while you don't)

 

[Strong Badam]

but you need to not count hitlag, because it never matters in frame advantage outside of when you hit them when they aren't shielding with an electric attack.
It's far easier to ignore hitlag. You might say it's "a difference in customs" but Shieldstun is shieldstun, and hitlag is hitlag. There is no term that includes both.

 

[AvengerAngel]

I don't get what you mean D:
Frames of advantage when hitting shields are calculated with shield stun, hit lag and l-cancel frames. Considering shield stun and hit lag as two different, separate things or together as one doesn't really affect frame maths, does it? D:

 

[FrootLoop]

What are good ways to cover jump oos or wd oos when pressuring?

 

[Dr Peepee]

What are good ways to cover jump oos or wd oos when pressuring?

Double shine and shine grab sorta cover both, along with immediate Nair/Dair. Laser mixed into shield pressure also catches WD OOS.

 

[choknater]

double shine grab :O

dat 2013

 

[Wenbobular]

Nah
I can sometimes do it
I'm sure people way better than me can already do it
Like Shiz or something

 

[choknater]

alright

2011 then. still the future!

shine turnaround jc shine ac bair

man u guys are gdlk

 

[Strong Badam]

I don't get what you mean D:
Frames of advantage when hitting shields are calculated with shield stun, hit lag and l-cancel frames. Considering shield stun and hit lag as two different, separate things or together as one doesn't really affect frame maths, does it? D:

because hitlag doesn't matter in frame advantage. victim and attacker always have the same hitlag if you're hitting a shield. shieldstun and l-cancel landlag are all that are relevant. Our methods of calculating frame advantage will come out to the same answer (unless you use Phanna's shieldstun values and it happens to be wrong in that instance), but yours has an extra step. Use my formula and it'll save you time. I also have an excel that calculates it based on stale & damage, just look for it in my threads.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

isn't hitstun different for each player when electricity is involved, or no? i thought u said that once

 

[Strong Badam]

*Hitlag
Not on shield. I have been wrong in the past about it.

 

[AvengerAngel]

because hitlag doesn't matter in frame advantage. victim and attacker always have the same hitlag if you're hitting a shield. shieldstun and l-cancel landlag are all that are relevant. Our methods of calculating frame advantage will come out to the same answer (unless you use Phanna's shieldstun values and it happens to be wrong in that instance), but yours has an extra step. [...]

LOL you're right, I didn't think about it before

I also have an excel that calculates it based on stale & damage, just look for it in my threads.

Omg this <33
Where can I find it? :O

 

[Strong Badam]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=302275

 

[AvengerAngel]

Wow, that's awesome stuff. Thanks :D