PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Dr Peepee]

jason's argument is similar to the one I presented to you a few days ago. Even assuming fox plays correctly and looks for those holes and plays around that weak point, the fact remains that he's still playing around a fundamental disadvantage. Just because fox has the tools to play around a disadvantage doesn't leverage an even match, it only means he doesn't lose outright, but we should still acknowledge that disadvantage accordingly.

at the very least, DD grab works on fox with a lot of characters simply because he has doesn't have the range to deal with it (see: marth can grab literally every single attack fox has). Fox can waveland as a means to beat DD grab on landing lag, but he has no such solution to DD/CC grab on his approaches and is forced to the generic "camp them back" answer, which isn't practical over the long run. I think the closest example I can think of here is Jman, and we can observe his performance readily.

edit: I have also thought falco to be better for tournament purposes than fox for some time now. we (me you jason) had this argument before where we questioned if every fox for the past 5 years was "rusty" if you'll recall.

I acknowledge the disadvantage but don't believe it's as significant as it's made out to be at all.

Jman barely plays much anymore.....

M2K tried that on PC at Oc3 and at some later tourney with Marth and PC got around it because you can't always be CC'ing vs Fox so Fox can get him. Fox's attacks were beating Marth's grabs/retreat attempts so clearly Fox's speed is not ot be underestimated here.







I did NOT call Foxes in the last five years rusty. I said that the current best Fox we had to base our perception of Fox on, was in fact, rusty.

 

[Bamesy]

Falco has excelled EXTREMELY far over a short time and long time. Before anything can actually be determined in terms of 'how good Fox is' or 'Fox better than Falco/etc', Fox has a LOT of room to grow, and so does every player growing with him.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

All you'd have to do is pay my plane ticket and idgaf about how much I win.

It's so much easier to convince my parents of stuff if the plane ticket is taken care of lol.

this is a hypothetical:

how do you feel about someone paying your ticket if they keep your winnings up to the ticket cost?

 

[Dr Peepee]

this is a hypothetical:

how do you feel about someone paying your ticket if they keep your winnings up to the ticket cost?

That's assuming I win/place very high which is why I don't like it. You never know what could happen....

That aside, I don't particularly mind I guess.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

looks like pp just needs to **** on everyone with fox as well to make ppl shut up

 

[Dr Peepee]

This is probably true LOL.

I have more Falco/general work to do so I'll let people say what they want for a while longer I guess.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

well in the case of the MW, you are pretty much guaranteed top 3 and I wouldn't be surprised if a national champion won.

i've been fooling around with the idea of starting a midwest "good player fund" to encourage traveling. My only requirement would be to replace the money taken out, but nothing out of pocket (aka, only from prize money). If this were to happen, i would greatly appreciate additional donations into the fund (obviously) but again, no pressure.

But nothing has even started, I was just trying to get your opinion since it sorta came up. If any other national player wants to chime in and give their opinion, feel free.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I'd be down for it lol.

Midwest guys seem cool.

 

[Deleted member]

I acknowledge the disadvantage but don't believe it's as significant as it's made out to be at all.

I did NOT call Foxes in the last five years rusty. I said that the current best Fox we had to base our perception of Fox on, was in fact, rusty.

hey, I'm not trying to attack you, it was just a reference for memory.

and i don't think the disadvantage is significant either, i just think it's enough for falco to be better than fox overall in tournament purposes. were more stages legal, fox's speed and ability to camp would make him clearly the best, so i think there's some interference there as well.

 

[mers]

Peepee: I'd love to hear your thoughts on your sets with Mango from WGF. What made you go from losing to his Falcon to wrecking it? Do you think he was sandbagging like he usually does?

 

[Brookman]

mango doesn't sandbag and assuming that mango was sandbagging is an insult (to him and to PP).

 

[#HBC | Mac]

mow, we should talk about smash sometime

 

[tarheeljks]

well in the case of the MW, you are pretty much guaranteed top 3 and I wouldn't be surprised if a national champion won.

i've been fooling around with the idea of starting a midwest "good player fund" to encourage traveling. My only requirement would be to replace the money taken out, but nothing out of pocket (aka, only from prize money). If this were to happen, i would greatly appreciate additional donations into the fund (obviously) but again, no pressure.

But nothing has even started, I was just trying to get your opinion since it sorta came up. If any other national player wants to chime in and give their opinion, feel free.

should talk to homemadewaffles about how the norcal gpf operates

 

[Druggedfox]

From what I've heard, mango started off trying with falcon then threw the set after he was up 2-0 in WF. In GF HugS said he requested mango go falco for the last three games, where I assume mango was not sandbagging. I'd like to hear more specifics from PP as well though :D

 

[Rubyiris]

ledgehopped reverse nair edgeguard is the greatest thing ever.

 

[Dr Peepee]

hey, I'm not trying to attack you, it was just a reference for memory.

and i don't think the disadvantage is significant either, i just think it's enough for falco to be better than fox overall in tournament purposes. were more stages legal, fox's speed and ability to camp would make him clearly the best, so i think there's some interference there as well.

Falco gets helped out too much by people not knowing all of his holes/how to exploit them for me to really have a good idea whether that is the big factor hurting Fox or not. If knowledge vs them were more even then I'd be able to have a better response to that.

Peepee: I'd love to hear your thoughts on your sets with Mango from WGF. What made you go from losing to his Falcon to wrecking it? Do you think he was sandbagging like he usually does?

I can tell you EXACTLY what was going on.

WFs:

He tried the first two games. I did too, but CA was only cheering when Mango did something ****. This got to me(because I am ********) and so I started rushing Mango trying to start cool stuff for the crowd. Mango won the first two games obviously.

When I sorta kinda got it together game 3, Mango had already started sandbagging. And you saw the rest lol.

HOWEVER

he tried all of GFs. They are wonderful matches for the most part(except the parts where I drop combos and suck LOL) and will be great to watch. =)

ledgehopped reverse nair edgeguard is the greatest thing ever.

Haha I wish I could see a video of that.

 

[Bamesy]

^I like that last part of summary of Fox/Falco

 

[Deleted member]

Falco gets helped out too much by people not knowing all of his holes/how to exploit them for me to really have a good idea whether that is the big factor hurting Fox or not. If knowledge vs them were more even then I'd be able to have a better response to that.

No, I don't buy that, not even as speculation. To state unfamiliarity for both the best players (your peers, no less) and on a community level of one of the most played characters in a well-studied game that has been played competitively for 9 long years...I just can't buy that. It's too insulting to the intelligence of your well known and respected opponents, and you as the current primary "falco authority" per se can't even cite your own argument for yourself here since you're not fully above that character yourself (mango's falco, namely).

I can understand the fox vs falco comparison to be unfair since my prior stage tangent can only be speculation at best. But to stake claim to some en masse ignorance in such a researched topic is well...ignorant. You're better than this.

 

[choknater]

actually, i can dig pp's argument. falco does have exploitable holes in his pressure game, and soon enough i think people will begin to exploit this, just like how the brawl metagame has evolved to beat metaknight. in fact, the way top falco players mend those holes is not by continuing to power through their opponent's defenses but by retreating to laser and get regain a better position. this gives the opposing character ample opportunity to do the same. timed shield grabs, oos peach nairs, oos shines, falcon full hops, marth oos wd's/fairs... they've always been able to get past falco's holes.

 

[Dr Peepee]

No, I don't buy that, not even as speculation. To state unfamiliarity for both the best players (your peers, no less) and on a community level of one of the most played characters in a well-studied game that has been played competitively for 9 long years...I just can't buy that. It's too insulting to the intelligence of your well known and respected opponents, and you as the current primary "falco authority" per se can't even cite your own argument for yourself here since you're not fully above that character yourself (mango's falco, namely).

I can understand the fox vs falco comparison to be unfair since my prior stage tangent can only be speculation at best. But to stake claim to some en masse ignorance in such a researched topic is well...ignorant. You're better than this.

That's okay, most people don't believe me. We'd need a larger player base so more minds could be "solving" the Falco matchup like what has started to kinda happen for Puff before anyone believed me.

It's an insult if taken that way, but it's not intended as an insult. It's an observation made after playing pretty much all of the top players.

 

[JPOBS]

PP isn't the first top falco. if people haven't "figured out" how to beat him by now, theres something sincerely wrong.

im with unbreon on this one. People know how to beat falco, they know all his holes, he's just still really ****ing good and can be played in a way to minimize his few weaknesses.

 

[Bamesy]

You guys talk about it as if it'll get to a point where Falco won't be beatable/will never be someone again.
It's never going to reach that point in this game. There's too much diversity. Falco has holes, as does everyone, they can be covered up and abused, as and by everyone.

Normal note
I really need work on this pressure game I hear is so important. I'm too slow to do the fun fancy stuff and just shinegrab everyone...
It works but it's boring lol

 

[KILLA.FOR.CASH.]

whenever theres a ****ing amazing player, people say that that char is broken

only time will tell if PP gets dethroned convincingly (when mango clearly loses, or loses enough times to PP, so people can't use the sandbagging argument anymore)

but yeah. falco has holes in his gameplay, but when another character is pitted against a character like falco, that character all of sudden has much more holes than falco does.

we're all playing melee using swiss cheese as characters, and only the biggest swiss cheese mother of them all can give us the answer to solve melee and refine the tier list; THE MOON!

 

[Bamesy]

Superfacts ^

I love cheese sauces



edit:
The other stuff is ok too...
Didn't read it until now lol...
but I love the cheese part...

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Falco's autocancels are pretty sick

 

[Mew2King]

i say people don't know how to fight fox and marth and sheik then.

when i mained fox everyone said fox was broken, then i changed mains to marth and they all said marth is broken, then in brawl I mained DDD and everyone said he was broken (Azen and Chillin had him listed 2nd or 3rd best character cuz of my tourney wins over a few months) then now MK is broken

but I do seriously think Falco is a lot better than fox mostly due to lasers and dair. Those moves change everything

i don't buy that fox is better than falco when overall falco has by far better tourney records over the past 5+ years by tons of different players and gives me 10 times more trouble and always has even if i learn the matchup

 

[Dr Peepee]

I don't know what you guys want from me.

I win more now so I guess that makes Falco broken? If that's all we're going by then sure.

M2K, you don't know the Falco matchup. I mean you'd just have to be involved with improvement and being in the game and stuff since Brawl came out(when Falco started to accelerate more) in order to handle him now and you haven't done that. You could still learn to fight Falco obviously but you haven't shown the heart to is all.

 

[Bamesy]

There are a lot more Falco's than anything, and his game is based on 'pressure' of sorts. Meaning his development should come first, and others games develop afterwards to counter his 'pressure' or offensive control game.
It's the natural way the development of that should happen.
By far is a bit of a stretch, but it's reasonable that Fox SHOULD be slightly behind Falco overall due to him being in need to pick apart his opponents holes as a core goal rather than be the one trying to cover holes in his 'pressure' or 'walls' etc.
Marth and Sheik and so on have to grow in terms of countering Falco, as does every character in a way. That means Falco has to be developped to a point where they can develop ways of countering what he develops.
Falco has been, is and always will be beast. All beatable though.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

As for the tourney wins thing... fox does consistently better than falco and puff, with about twice the tourney wins as them.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=267771

 

[unknown522]

haha, it doesn't matter if falco is broken. If you think he's too good, then pick him up or something m2k

 

[Bamesy]

That's why I've mained him all January.

****ing Broken *** *****

 

[Mew2King]

ive tried falco before but the lasers aren't a part of my style so I'm much better with Marth Sheik Fox

pp - so what am i doing wrong then

I think Fox is a joke compared to him (singles not teams) because all you have to do against fox is abuse his bad range and then get in a grab and take his stock from it

sveet - I am talking about top nationals over past 5 years. That just means fox is better at mid and mid/high level play and is more common

also pp I know how you feel cuz people said fox was the best then marth was the best (based off who I was ****** people with at the time) then ddd was cheap and broken and now mk should be banned, based on my tourney wins with them during that time period. But I'm still gonna stand behind my opinion unless I can be convinced otherwise and I've always thought falco was better unless there's some secret stuff (besides perfect powersheilding) that I don't know about. If i dont know how to fight falco then what exactly am i doing wrong (I know of the obvious stuff like my tech being rusty and that will probably always be the case cuz of brawl but I'll just accept it now but I still believe falco is better than fox is)

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hmmm

Abusing Falco's slow speed and holes in his approach/pressure game will be the best way to take advantage of Falco.

Not staying stuck in your shield vs him(I mean you always lightshield vs Falco's pressure, and, even though it's Mango, you can find times to WD OOS or just jump out or something) is a great place to start.

 

[Bamesy]

That approach/pressure game will always change with everyone changing to beat it though. :/

If anything, I think KILLING Falco has been the deciding factor in Falco>everyone over the last years. Gimping him was what held him back, now it's grown to not be so much of a weakness, so it'll take some adjusting to.

Great players and Falcos won't get killed by gimps as quickly or as often, but if they adjust to dodge instant death that way, it'll simply take adjusting to killing them. Taking away small pieces at a time over a long period to finish a stock ALL as a gimp, rather than a few hits, as Falcos game knows how to get around the instagibs by now.

Edit: Example like...at Rom3 you 2 on Yoshis...if M2K landed that spike after the Fair, he would have had the match, but DI/slight misspace and a couple small hits turned the whole set. RC didn't help the set either.
A little difference makes all the difference.

Even the best (that's you guys) get better at different speeds at different times in different bursts.
That day, that set, PP just got the spike instead.
One day, it'll change.

I'm just spewing practicality thoughts I'm getting from reading your convo...but it makes sense to me. lol :/

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

sveet - I am talking about top nationals over past 5 years. That just means fox is better at mid and mid/high level play and is more common

The "top nationals over the past 5 years" have all been won by a select number of people. You, Ken, Azen, PC, Mango, Chu, Isai, KDJ, Dr. PP, Hbox.

when i mained fox everyone said fox was broken, then i changed mains to marth and they all said marth is broken, then in brawl I mained DDD and everyone said he was broken (Azen and Chillin had him listed 2nd or 3rd best character cuz of my tourney wins over a few months) then now MK is broken

And now you say falco is broken because of PP and stuff.

Its natural to have your opinion change because of your experiences, but its ignorant to not realize that you are following the same pattern you described Azen and Chillin having in regards to your DDD.

 

[Mew2King]

sveet did you even read what I said, I know that I'm doing that but it's for different reasons. I've always thought this character was underrated but I think more so even now unless I completely master powershielding.

PC won almost everything with falco for over an entire year, from late 05 to very very early 07 before i surpassed his skill, and then mango ***** me with falco for a year and now PP is using him. I've never had trouble with a Fox (don't say PCs fox just cuz of oc3, because I've beaten his fox many times before and then many times after that tournament but over half of them weren't recorded) and the only times fox won anything big was mlg 06 finals, oc3, and when Jman won dgdtj. I don't see fox as a better character. If I'm so bad against falco id like to know all the things im doing wrong

Bamesy i missed an auto combos by doing my dair late. that was guaranteed to hit if i didnt mess it up

 

[Brookman]

Jason has always said falco is broken. Mastery of power shielding sounds good. Should mod your controller dude.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

sveet did you even read what I said, I know that I'm doing that but it's for different reasons. I've always thought this character was underrated but I think more so even now unless I completely master powershielding.

did you read what you said?

PC won almost everything with falco for over an entire year, from late 05 to very very early 07 before i surpassed his skill

I seem to remember this guy named Azen who lived on the east coast too. He uhh played this one blue character with a sword.... Yeah link but also like marth and stuff. I heard he had a significantly high win rate vs this "chris" guy. And then there was a guy named Ken. Yeah ken messed up and lost to PC once or twice in 06, but not in 05. Then that KDJ came and beat ken too.

, and then mango ***** me with falco for a year and now PP is using him. I've never had trouble with a Fox (don't say PCs fox just cuz of oc3, because I've beaten his fox many times before and then many times after that tournament but over half of them weren't recorded).

Cool. But I remember a year ago you made posts exactly like this about jigglypuff. You weren't so vocal about Falco back then.

 

[~Tac~]

That's okay, most people don't believe me. We'd need a larger player base so more minds could be "solving" the Falco matchup like what has started to kinda happen for Puff before anyone believed me.

It's an insult if taken that way, but it's not intended as an insult. It's an observation made after playing pretty much all of the top players.

You guys talk about it as if it'll get to a point where Falco won't be beatable/will never be someone again.
It's never going to reach that point in this game. There's too much diversity. Falco has holes, as does everyone, they can be covered up and abused, as and by everyone.

Normal note
I really need work on this pressure game I hear is so important. I'm too slow to do the fun fancy stuff and just shinegrab everyone...
It works but it's boring lol

whenever theres a ****ing amazing player, people say that that char is broken

only time will tell if PP gets dethroned convincingly (when mango clearly loses, or loses enough times to PP, so people can't use the sandbagging argument anymore)

but yeah. falco has holes in his gameplay, but when another character is pitted against a character like falco, that character all of sudden has much more holes than falco does.

we're all playing melee using swiss cheese as characters, and only the biggest swiss cheese mother of them all can give us the answer to solve melee and refine the tier list; THE MOON!

Not to hop on a wagon or anything, but I'm going to have to agree on this. You've all seen how tiers and characters have fluctuated on the charts of "broken" and "too good" all due to the players using them. Falco has plenty of things that can be exploited if people were to put their heart into finding them. Like Puff.

And no, I'm NOT starting a Brawl vs Melee. Because Sonic vs MK. Nuff said.

Also, cheese + moon = tier list? I approve.

 

[Mew2King]

i think jiggs and falco are the best 2 characters. I wasn't vocal about jiggs cuz no one was good with her and i didn't realize how good she truely was. I ***** killaor and king, but it's just cuz they weren't up to the standards of my skill level, not the character. Seeing how easily rest could be abused (block a move -> rest, uair or up tilt -> rest, get one read -> rest, then finals being puff dittos and only losing to that 1 character for a while, then latering discovering how good her planking was). azen's style counters pcs for some reason, but mine countered azens. pcs falco has a win-rate vs ken's marth, and ken thinks marth loses that matchup (I have talked to him. I also told him to spam counter vs Pcs falco because it counters his aggressive style, then he DID THAT at mlg dallas and refuses to tell people that I told him to do so. I wish I had aim logs to prove it, cuz he's a huge liar and I have no respect for him once I learned what type of person he was). My tourney record vs him was about 10-1. the main reason is because I knew how to fight Marth and his limitations. I beat him with fox, marth dittos, and sheik in tournaments