PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[FoxLisk]

are you kidding? you're trying to give us advice and your idea of pressure is shine wd in place dair?

give me a break...

 

[Little England]

Hah, yeah I'm not gunna lie, that all sounds...bad. I think you should learn how to sh out of your shine before you give advice on shield pressure.

 

[Bamesy]

Did either of you even read anything? lol
"idea of pressure" = utilt>shine after aerials.

Watch your very own DrPP vs M2K/KK and count the utilts vs shines after aerials on their shield and then come back here.
If you STILL haven't caught on, then I'd "give the advice" of 'Don't play Falco or you'll be one of the 9000 other generic Falcos/smashers that doesn't understand the idea that 'getting better' means 'improving' which means 'changing'

As a generic 'this is how it is, nothing more or less' player, you may will never realize that Shieldstun after aerials allows for Utilt with shieldstun that allows for shine which allows for grabs and literally there is only one way of getting out beyond 'falling off the ledge'
And every other tiny thing about this game.

Just sayin :/





WD in place after shine... almost Waveshining...
Skipping the second shine before an aerial isn't going to do very much aside from make them hesitate cause they're EXPECTING a shine and ANTICIPATING to counter BEFORE you aerial...because EVERYBODY does it already...that part of the metagame has developed...

Move on already. :/

 

[Melomaniacal]

There's enough shieldstun from up tilt to be able to shine without them leaving stun? I don't buy it.

 

[Bamesy]

It's not frame perfect, stop theory crafting and just try it as something different.

You'll be surprised how the concept of "I'm not the best in the world so I better keep changing what I'm doing until I am" actually involves things that don't work perfectly all the time in a flexible and diverse game. If you want to get better that is. Which is something I find everybody enjoys doing.

It might work, it might not. Depends on literally... EVERYTHING. Everything is all situational, otherwise it would be broken. We all know Falco isn't THAT good.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dear PP,

After watching your set vs. tope I have an idea to share with you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55TGU4fpx7Q&t=0m48s


let go of the edge, turn in your shine, double jump down air > down air.
It'll save you the trouble of turning around in a tight spot near the edge.

At the very worst the sheik will DI the first down air out of your range.

I think I was just trying to cover go to the edge and vanish up and hope to have enough time to beat going onstage. I mean, I could have just done the reverse Dair(DI in) to turn around Dair and get the same effect(I could have done it at least once more each set but I wussed out) but I just wasn't thinking. XD I just need to work on that mixed up with Bairs and I'll be set.

Did either of you even read anything? lol
"idea of pressure" = utilt>shine after aerials.

Watch your very own DrPP vs M2K/KK and count the utilts vs shines after aerials on their shield and then come back here.
If you STILL haven't caught on, then I'd "give the advice" of 'Don't play Falco or you'll be one of the 9000 other generic Falcos/smashers that doesn't understand the idea that 'getting better' means 'improving' which means 'changing'

As a generic 'this is how it is, nothing more or less' player, you may will never realize that Shieldstun after aerials allows for Utilt with shieldstun that allows for shine which allows for grabs and literally there is only one way of getting out beyond 'falling off the ledge'
And every other tiny thing about this game.

Just sayin :/





WD in place after shine... almost Waveshining...
Skipping the second shine before an aerial isn't going to do very much aside from make them hesitate cause they're EXPECTING a shine and ANTICIPATING to counter BEFORE you aerial...because EVERYBODY does it already...that part of the metagame has developed...

Move on already. :/

Eh I only do the uptilt because I know they won't try to shield grab, or I'm pretty sure it wouldn't work(they're just conditioned to shield and I'm trying to catch their jump/WD OOS).

I think you can Utilt a shield and then shine in time, but you have to be close, and the uptilt pushes you away so it'd be hard to be that close and expect someone to let you do the shine turnaround grab(I assume you wouldn't be uptilting facing them because that's poor use of the hitbox in my opinion). It can be done, but it's not something I'd do much at all. Then again, I like keeping it simpler but that's me.

Some people try to break out faster so you have to take it all into account. There's nothing wrong with wanting to do stuff differently but you have to account for the fact that most people aren't gonna sit around not shield DI'ing or getting out after 1 mayyybe 2 repetitions of shield pressure in some form.

Falco's pressure has a lot of holes so it's really best to mix up whatever basic plan you start with, and THAT should be the main point in all of this. Nothing is necessarily wrong with what you're saying, but it's important to recognize that basic instincts combined with Falco's holes in any shield pressure and simple reading ability keep your ideas from being much more effective than the next guy's. It's all about where the match in pressure form goes after you see some success or failure using such pressure that matters the most, and that's a big part of being a good Falco in my opinion.

 

[Bamesy]

Eh I only do the uptilt because I know they won't try to shield grab they're just conditioned to shield and I'm trying to catch their jump/WD OOS It's all about where the match in pressure form goes after you see some success or failure



and that's THE MOST IMPORTANT part of being a good PLAYER.

EXACTLY
+
Fixed


IMO lol

 

[Dr Peepee]

Haha aight I can live with that.

 

[tarheeljks]

EXACTLY
+
Fixed


IMO lol

i'd say the main issue w/your post was that you are presenting tactics that should be used as mixups as staples. ex: don't shine immediately after an aerial-- if you do this repeatedly you are going to get grabbed and then *****


edit: i'm certainly not advocating playing mindlessly, but at the same time there are certain sequences of moves that prob shouldn't be deviated from w/o a a good reason. i'm all for creativity, but you're only playing mindlessly if your methods aren't working and you don't change them. change for change's sake isn't necessarily better imo

 

[Bamesy]

I should changed my sig/post at the end of all my posts...


"Nothing is staple"

As I'll actually back that up as fact as long as I'm alive.
PS: I didn't mean it as staple, I meant do it...at LEAST sometimes.


PS: Peepee, nice Avatar. That's sexy. :D

PSPS:
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOSHK

and Hi Kage, I'm playing Ganon soon. :D

 

[tarheeljks]

"nothing is a staple." i bet this will devolve into arguing semantics, but i'd be surprised if you didn't believe some strings are better than others in many situations

 

[Dr Peepee]

The reason anything is staple in the first place is because it's usually a very solid choice. There are some things you just can't avoid doing I believe, but again it all comes back to how the adaptation game goes.

 

[Melomaniacal]

It's not frame perfect, stop theory crafting and just try it as something different.

You'll be surprised how the concept of "I'm not the best in the world so I better keep changing what I'm doing until I am" actually involves things that don't work perfectly all the time in a flexible and diverse game. If you want to get better that is. Which is something I find everybody enjoys doing.

It might work, it might not. Depends on literally... EVERYTHING. Everything is all situational, otherwise it would be broken. We all know Falco isn't THAT good.

I don't care about it being frame perfect, I'm just saying that in my mind it seems to leave way too much space to be reliable at all.

Maybe I'm just imagining it wrong, but honestly the way I see it in my head is that after the up tilt, the opponent would have plenty of time to shield grab/roll/whatever just on reaction.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I don't care about it being frame perfect, I'm just saying that in my mind it seems to leave way too much space to be reliable at all.

Maybe I'm just imagining it wrong, but honestly the way I see it in my head is that after the up tilt, the opponent would have plenty of time to shield grab/roll/whatever just on reaction.

I missed half this discussion but i just caught this. I didn't believe utilt->shine was block safe (from grab) so i checked the frame data!

U Tilt

Total: 23
Hit: 5-11
IASA: 23

Shield stun: 11
Shield hit lag: 5

Even if the utilt hits on the first frame of the hitbox, with the 11 frames of shield stun that means the opponent couldn't start grabbing until frame 17. No grab is faster than frame 7, which means it would hit on frame 24. Frame 24 also happens to be the first frame falco can do a move, aka shine.

INCREDIBLE


edit- good thing you cant JC into an utilt or there would be frame perfect shine->utilt->shine shield pressure O_O

 

[Melomaniacal]

Well now I know.

And knowing is half the battle.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

hmm i think i did that math wrong actually...

Spoiler

Frame - Action
1 - utilt start
2 -
3 -
4 -
5 - utilt hits shield
---(hitlag)
6 - frame 1 of shield stun (11 frames total)
7 -
8 -
9 -
10 -
11 -
12 -
13 -
14 -
15 -
16 - last frame of shield stun
17 - first frame of grab
18 -
19 -
20 -
21 -
22 -
23 - first frame of grab hitbox, last frame of utilt

But i do believe you can act on the iasa frame, not the frame after, so that would still let you shine on the same frame the grab would hit you.

 

[Mew2King]

even if falco's pressure has holes

1) it's still the best in the game

2) once he guesses right (let's say 50/50 chance to hit) he gets a HUGE COMBO OFF OF IT (or edge guard, if they DI away)

which is why I think he's best/2nd best character and a big reason why I think you underrate him so much

 

[stingers]

get ****ing *****:

Kevin "Dr. "ThatDude" Peepee" Nanney

m2k doesn't think its jiggs then shiek

GET RAAAAAAAAAPED

 

[Bl@ckChris]

falco is bad.

that thing can get gimped.

by ganon.

LOL.

 

[Dr Peepee]

even if falco's pressure has holes

1) it's still the best in the game

2) once he guesses right (let's say 50/50 chance to hit) he gets a HUGE COMBO OFF OF IT (or edge guard, if they DI away)

which is why I think he's best/2nd best character and a big reason why I think you underrate him so much

The best? Ehhh I have a hard time believing it's better than Fox's at least.

I mean that's like saying once Marth gets a hit he gets a CG/juggle/gimp from his openings so he's one of the best. Most of the good characters will be massacring one another at top level so why do combos make that big of a difference?

If you can explain to me why you think that people consistently proving to me that they don't know how to handle Falco's pressure game and exploit holes in his approaches/pressure/lasers combined with the fact that Falco is very slow and has to guess/have a strict reaction time on a lot of combos above 40-50% for a lot of characters partially because of it then I'll agree with you. Oh and tell me about how the recovery isn't a huge factor either.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Just when the m2k puff rage ended...

Along came a doctor...

 

[Bamesy]

I have 0 credibility at all times and don't know **** about this game. (seriously, I just found out that you can't CC dash dancing a few days ago and I don't watch videos and don't play almost ever)
I'll never look up 'stats' or anything of that nature... It doesn't make anything I say any more or less useful or worth reading. Seriously, I don't even play this game. LOL

Stomp is a good move with Falcon, you miss you could be ****ed...so? It's still good move and I should DO IT because I know it's good and I like good things...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Frame data and theory crafting on what's viable or what situation is good or what beats what statistically or beneficially all day every day...

Utilt > Shine after aerials on the shield is good because of the fact it's LOGICAL to do it when your opponent is conditioned a certain way, which they ALWAYS are.
NOT
We have 1/5 of a second advantage...so it's
OK




end rant...maybe ;P


Mix up EVERYTHING. Always change and do not stop.
That is the best advice anyone can give anyone...ever...in life... LOL

 

[Mahone]

I have 0 credibility at all times and don't know **** about this game. (seriously, I just found out that you can't CC dash dancing a few days ago and I don't watch videos and don't play almost ever)
I'll never look up 'stats' or anything of that nature... It doesn't make anything I say any more or less useful or worth reading. Seriously, I don't even play this game. LOL

Stomp is a good move with Falcon, you miss you could be ****ed...so? It's still good move and I should DO IT because I know it's good and I like good things...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Frame data and theory crafting on what's viable or what situation is good or what beats what statistically or beneficially all day every day...

Utilt > Shine after aerials on the shield is good because of the fact it's LOGICAL to do it when your opponent is conditioned a certain way, which they ALWAYS are.
NOT
We have 1/5 of a second advantage...so it's
OK




end rant...maybe ;P


Mix up EVERYTHING. Always change and do not stop.
That is the best advice anyone can give anyone...ever...in life... LOL

Lol, im siging this....

if anyone wants a good read, bamesy did the same thing he did in here in the puff boards and said that he does dash attack > fair > fair > grab or some **** and it all combos... so i politely told him that he was wrong... and then .... well like i said, its a good read.

 

[Divinokage]

Lol, im siging this....

if anyone wants a good read, bamesy did the same thing he did in here in the puff boards and said that he does dash attack > fair > fair > grab or some **** and it all combos... so i politely told him that he was wrong... and then .... well like i said, its a good read.

Sure but the thing he said last is true, change at all times.. that's good. =)

 

[Mew2King]

No, I still think Puff is the best character in the game

all she has to do is get the lead vs a lot of characters then plank

it's just the top players of jiggs don't do that (don't use her at her full potential)

 

[Mew2King]

Recovery options you can use

1) DJ sweetspot the ledge
2) DJ on early and Dair

3) shinestall, then DJ sweet spot the ledge
4) shinestall, then DJ Dair
5) shinestall, then DJ to wall jump to any of the things listed below:

(you can also vary the timing of your shinestalls and it makes it very tricky to edge guard him)

5) wall jump bair
6) wall jump illusion/up B
7) wall jump air dodge on to light shield (and if they attack your shield you can either bair right away or DJ back on with a bair or lasers

8) jump back illusion cancel to ledge
9) jump back and firefox at various angles

those are the best ones imo. Due to just having shinestall or wall jumping that many characters don't have and a Dair that either combos you or kills you (depending if they get hit by it / how they get hit by it) it's very hard to edge guard a smart, non-generic falco

Now let's assume falco's chance of hitting you is 50/50 (even though it's better than that for Falco, for getting out of his pressure, just say 50/50 for the sake of arguing). If I do something like Nair OOS (sheik) or Fair/Dair OOS (marth), I probably just get that 1 hit and can't follow up, and if I can follow up (unlikely), it won't be very strongly, it would just be a positional advantage.

If falco gets a shine on me, or a dair on me, I am either 1) comboed with either a few hits, or a lot of hits or 2) hit offstage into a very bad position

the reason fox is worse than falco is because most of his "combos" can be DIed out of or crouched (crouch nair DI drill) and more importantly, you can just outrange him and dash dance grab him since he doesn't have lasers to force him into a range good for him. So yes I definitely think Falco is better than Fox and I have thought that for the past 5-6 years.

 

[Bamesy]

lol M2K, good analysis...
But meh, Fox is good, Falco is good. None will ever ALWAYS win over the other since it takes too many 'situations' into account to determine the outcome of it inevitably.
Melee arpes :D

lol Mahon, I'm siggin it too, should've a while ago. When I'm wrong, then I'll let you know. Until then, sorry you feel that way.

Kage, you're a warrior mang
Played Ganon for the first time today...freakin FUN

 

[Brookman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hyph_DZa_GQ

 

[bossa nova ♪]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSzPbO9DFcg

 

[Kanelol]

If Fox is worse than Falco

why is Fox higher on the tier list

(serious post)

 

[Divinokage]

lol M2K, good analysis...
But meh, Fox is good, Falco is good. None will ever ALWAYS win over the other since it takes too many 'situations' into account to determine the outcome of it inevitably.
Melee arpes :D

lol Mahon, I'm siggin it too, should've a while ago. When I'm wrong, then I'll let you know. Until then, sorry you feel that way.

Kage, you're a warrior mang
Played Ganon for the first time today...freakin FUN

Hell ya it's fun. =)

 

[Mahone]

Sure but the thing he said last is true, change at all times.. that's good. =)

I wasn't disagreeing with that part, i was disagreeing with the part where he lied about things comboing

No, I still think Puff is the best character in the game

all she has to do is get the lead vs a lot of characters then plank

it's just the top players of jiggs don't do that (don't use her at her full potential)

her edge stalls aren't good enough for her to do that.... and don't tell me you four stocked jman's fox... i know.

I think it's true against some characters (like falco) she could probably do that, but against marth, what if they just keep spacing downtilt and for fox you can get shine spikes, you just have to pick your spots carefully, peach could throw turnips, etc... so idk about this...

lol Mahon, I'm siggin it too, should've a while ago. When I'm wrong, then I'll let you know. Until then, sorry you feel that way.

You shouldn't be so scared of being wrong... you can continue to be one of those falcos that are like

"dur i practice tech skill all day and am so scared of being wrong i will never get any better cuz i will just continue to mix up my pressure instead of doing the unbeatable uptilt shine grab"

but you are better than that! Follow your dreams... i see the same creativity in your posts as i did when mango was posting in stuff about puff... you have the potential...

do it....
WIN
POUND
5!!!

 

[Divinokage]

Increasing the level from being a low level fighter into a champion in a matter of 2 weeks.. man.. lol. I would pay 1000$ if someone manages something ridiculous like that.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Sure but the thing he said last is true, change at all times.. that's good. =)

That part is good and not what anyone is disputing lol.

No, I still think Puff is the best character in the game

all she has to do is get the lead vs a lot of characters then plank

it's just the top players of jiggs don't do that (don't use her at her full potential)

Plank vs me at Pound in friendlies or at one of those NC things you're tryin to come to. I want to see if it's really THAT bad.

Recovery options you can use

1) DJ sweetspot the ledge
2) DJ on early and Dair

3) shinestall, then DJ sweet spot the ledge
4) shinestall, then DJ Dair
5) shinestall, then DJ to wall jump to any of the things listed below:

(you can also vary the timing of your shinestalls and it makes it very tricky to edge guard him)

5) wall jump bair
6) wall jump illusion/up B
7) wall jump air dodge on to light shield (and if they attack your shield you can either bair right away or DJ back on with a bair or lasers

8) jump back illusion cancel to ledge
9) jump back and firefox at various angles

those are the best ones imo. Due to just having shinestall or wall jumping that many characters don't have and a Dair that either combos you or kills you (depending if they get hit by it / how they get hit by it) it's very hard to edge guard a smart, non-generic falco

Now let's assume falco's chance of hitting you is 50/50 (even though it's better than that for Falco, for getting out of his pressure, just say 50/50 for the sake of arguing). If I do something like Nair OOS (sheik) or Fair/Dair OOS (marth), I probably just get that 1 hit and can't follow up, and if I can follow up (unlikely), it won't be very strongly, it would just be a positional advantage.

If falco gets a shine on me, or a dair on me, I am either 1) comboed with either a few hits, or a lot of hits or 2) hit offstage into a very bad position

the reason fox is worse than falco is because most of his "combos" can be DIed out of or crouched (crouch nair DI drill) and more importantly, you can just outrange him and dash dance grab him since he doesn't have lasers to force him into a range good for him. So yes I definitely think Falco is better than Fox and I have thought that for the past 5-6 years.

All of that stuff you listed was for gimps and if they DI the throws inward M2K. If they DI out or have too much(like decent) % then even if they shine stall then they can only do so much. Plus you can't even really wall jump on battlefield and it's kinda hard to do on some other stages(DL has that weird backwards slope for example) so I mean there goes like half of your list right there. Think about what it's like for mid-higher %s(which is still earlier than Falco gets offstage kills vs those characters more often than not) when Falco is sent offstage.

You listed like the worst possible moves for that. I mean it's not like if Marth/Sheik are spacing moves on Falco's shield and he beats an approach with retreating Dair that he can really follow that up either, but that's so vaguely situational that I really don't see the point of bringing it up. Marth and Sheik get great followups on their stuff when they're actually going for it and NOT COUNTERATTACKING OUT OF SHIELD(same as for most characters) because oos stuff should be used to throw off pressure not necessarily treat it like rewarding an approach and death combo(but maybe that will be the case once people condition better and stuff.....because I know you're able to follow stuff up indirectly off of those hits with Marth Sheik just like a Falco could technically follow up a retreating Dair OOS).

CC doesn't work on Fox forever and you can't always be crouching and spaced Bair ensures that and is a great way to rack up damage on people just looking for that(in addition to lasers or dash canceled shines or grabs obviously).

So what if Fox doesn't have lasers that stun? His lasers force approaches, which is the point of a projectile in the first place. You don't attack Fox, you get damage. You attack, you're on his terms. You can only WD back for so long before you get predictable and someone just overshoots a move on you(you can't CC while WD'ing I'm pretty sure so there's that too).

DD grab can't always work on Fox because, unless it's a Fox ditto, Fox is probably faster than whoever he's fighting against. If Fox is observing you like you're observing him, then he can just adjust his spacing based on how you want to DD/pivot grab him and punish accordingly. That argument doesn't work and we'll just become circular with it probably.

 

[Jake13]

Yo peepizzle,

How big of a pot would you need to come to texas?

Other pros have said they'd come if we player funded them (looking at you m2k), but being the conservative state we are... we see no point in paying for someone to come take our money.

Foreal question tho

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yo peepizzle,

How big of a pot would you need to come to texas?

Other pros have said they'd come if we player funded them (looking at you m2k), but being the conservative state we are... we see no point in paying for someone to come take our money.

Foreal question tho

All you'd have to do is pay my plane ticket and idgaf about how much I win.

It's so much easier to convince my parents of stuff if the plane ticket is taken care of lol.

 

[SSBMLahti]

Shine stall->walljump->shine stall->side B/up B
Shine stall-> walljump->side B/up B
Walljump->shinestall->side B/up B

 

[Jake13]

ff

All you'd have to do is pay my plane ticket and idgaf about how much I win.

It's so much easier to convince my parents of stuff if the plane ticket is taken care of lol.

Alright cool, I will see what I can do. Our next statewide tourney is whobo, check it out.

 

[Deleted member]

DD grab can't always work on Fox because, unless it's a Fox ditto, Fox is probably faster than whoever he's fighting against. If Fox is observing you like you're observing him, then he can just adjust his spacing based on how you want to DD/pivot grab him and punish accordingly. That argument doesn't work and we'll just become circular with it probably.

jason's argument is similar to the one I presented to you a few days ago. Even assuming fox plays correctly and looks for those holes and plays around that weak point, the fact remains that he's still playing around a fundamental disadvantage. Just because fox has the tools to play around a disadvantage doesn't leverage an even match, it only means he doesn't lose outright, but we should still acknowledge that disadvantage accordingly.

at the very least, DD grab works on fox with a lot of characters simply because he has doesn't have the range to deal with it (see: marth can grab literally every single attack fox has). Fox can waveland as a means to beat DD grab on landing lag, but he has no such solution to DD/CC grab on his approaches and is forced to the generic "camp them back" answer, which isn't practical over the long run. I think the closest example I can think of here is Jman, and we can observe his performance readily.

edit: I have also thought falco to be better for tournament purposes than fox for some time now. we (me you jason) had this argument before where we questioned if every fox for the past 5 years was "rusty" if you'll recall.

 

[Bamesy]

If Fox is worse than Falco

why is Fox higher on the tier list

(serious post)

Cause JIGGS IS SOOOO BROKEN

I wasn't disagreeing with that part, i was disagreeing with the part where he lied about things comboing

You shouldn't be so scared of being wrong... you can continue to be one of those falcos that are like

"dur i practice tech skill all day and am so scared of being wrong i will never get any better cuz i will just continue to mix up my pressure instead of doing the unbeatable uptilt shine grab"

HAHAH
I don't understand how you got any of these things from anything I've posted. Good or bad stuff.
Thanks for 'seeing potential' and stuff, but I don't really know how you got that out of it either. LOL

I've actually never pracrticed tech skill on my own time, but I probably should. I know it would be beneficial and others tell me I should at least once in a while. XD
As far as I'm concerned, there was no 'right/wrong' in anything said by anyone. People simply like to have undisputable proof that things are perfect or it's deemed wrong for no essential reason. This game is too flexible to have a 'wrong' on something so broad, everyone should know this by now. :D
As well, I'm the most honest person anyone that knows me has ever met. I don't like to see or hear talk about this, as I think dishonesty is a huge flaw in sense. Sorry you think 'lying' is something common and that I would ever do it. Makes I'm disapoint. :/

That part is good and not what anyone is disputing lol.

Agreed. Though I don't even know what the disputing is...I just know I'm part of it. D:

every fox for the past 5 years was "rusty" if you'll recall.

lol I like that.