PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[~Tac~]

Right, because "no one was good with her". Nobody realized that incorrect DI mixed with an utilt led to a death at 25% until Shiek/Fox got ***** by it. It snowballed from there into people like King and Mango putting Puff at the highest, and having her seem like she was a Metaknight. Then other characters started getting picked up to counter her and such, leading to her not seeming like a goddess anymore.

 

[Mew2King]

no character counters falco and jigglypuff. Some have even matchups but none of the characters counter them. No one counters fox either.

 

[Dr Peepee]

If you mean counter as in something like 65/35 then I agree.

 

[Mew2King]

i don't think any character beats falco or jigglypuff 55:45

 

[Dr Peepee]

I know where this is going

But I will respectfully disagree for now.

 

[Mew2King]

i don't know what you mean by i know where this is going. All I am doing is stating what I think and asking for what I am doing wrong vs falco compared to fox and then using that information to decide why fox could be better. But right now I see lasers as a huge part of shutting down a lot of characters and changing how you have to play the matchups between marth/sheik vs falco and marth/sheik vs fox

 

[Dr Peepee]

Well of course you can't approach the two characters the same way haha, one of them has a gun that stuns. XD

When it comes down to it though, if you're fluidly moving in and out of your shield in between bullets and all, what does Falco have? He's slower than Fox, and while his Dair and Nair may be a little bigger, that doesn't make them impossible to DD/WD back grab really. I mean if you can slow the game down right you can watch him much easier than you can Fox so long as you don't hit the panic switch when he's shooting you which a lot of people do.

You know it's funny, you thought take a laser to Fsmash sucked and yet you tried it and were safe when you used it vs me a couple times at RoM3. Are you sure you know how effective vs Falco tactics are?

 

[bossa nova ♪]

oooooooo pp goin in



im wavin up the redinbockers

 

[KILLA.FOR.CASH.]

all characters have holes in their gameplay, like swiss cheese, and all cheese originates from the moon

The moon is made out of cheese, and the moon is also bigger than any player playing super smash bros melee and any pixel character inside of the game.

The moon is the source of all of our power! thus, when a solar eclipse happens, the moon should be at it's weakest, and all of the holes in all of our gameplay should go away, and then only the "skill" of all our players should remain.

I think we should host a tournament on the day after the solar eclipse, and the winner of that tournament will obviously be the most skilled player! and not relying on the broken-ness of his character

Look inside of your minds and you'll see that what i'm saying is the utter truth.

 

[bossa nova ♪]

all characters have holes in their gameplay, like swiss cheese, and all cheese originates from the moon

The moon is made out of cheese, and the moon is also bigger than any player playing super smash bros melee and any pixel character inside of the game.

The moon is the source of all of our power! thus, when a solar eclipse happens, the moon should be at it's weakest, and all of the holes in all of our gameplay should go away, and then only the "skill" of all our players should remain.

I think we should host a tournament on the day after the solar eclipse, and the winner of that tournament will obviously be the most skilled player! and not relying on the broken-ness of his character

Look inside of your minds and you'll see that what i'm saying is the utter truth.

.......................




go on................

 

[Mew2King]

Well of course you can't approach the two characters the same way haha, one of them has a gun that stuns. XD

When it comes down to it though, if you're fluidly moving in and out of your shield in between bullets and all, what does Falco have? He's slower than Fox, and while his Dair and Nair may be a little bigger, that doesn't make them impossible to DD/WD back grab really. I mean if you can slow the game down right you can watch him much easier than you can Fox so long as you don't hit the panic switch when he's shooting you which a lot of people do.

You know it's funny, you thought take a laser to Fsmash sucked and yet you tried it and were safe when you used it vs me a couple times at RoM3. Are you sure you know how effective vs Falco tactics are?

dude it doesn't work if you do an early aerial

so like say we are mid range like a tipper F smash range or something, and you do a laser then rising nair/dair approach. Your nair/dair will hit before my F smash hits (also if you block it I'm screwed too but I was just saying an early aerial beats F smash and most falcos do laser -> early aerial so i quickly learned it wasn't a good strategy unless the range between us is far and I know how he'll commit to an approach). But worse, even if I get the F smash I can't follow up as well as you can because your dair or nair can lead to a spike if I DI in, or an edge guard if i don't DI. I think that having the option of lasers whenever he wants can set up better positions for situations in your advantage than Fox has. If you disagree I'll respect that but I'm not going to agree based off what I know right now. I can't just do that

 

[KingClubber]

Fox---Falco---Jiggy
1---Lasers---0
2---Ground---0
0---Air---3
1---Attack---2
1---Defense---0
1---Recovery---1

At least this is what always happens to me

^_^​

 

[Dr Peepee]

dude it doesn't work if you do an early aerial

so like say we are mid range like a tipper F smash range or something, and you do a laser then rising nair/dair approach. Your nair/dair will hit before my F smash hits. But worse, even if I get the F smash I can't follow up as well as you can because your dair or nair can lead to a spike if I DI in, or an edge guard if i don't DI. I think that having the option of lasers whenever he wants can set up better positions for situations in your advantage than Fox has. If you disagree I'll respect that but I'm not going to agree based off what I know right now. I can't just do that

You mean if I do an early aerial? Couldn't you just shield grab that then?

First of all, I wouldn't recommend doing an Fsmash at tipper Fsmash range if I hit you with a laser from there. You need to be outside of tipper range somewhat so you can hit Falco as he moves into you. You could maybe uptilt though....or WD back....or you know, just shield. If I Nair you then you could CC anyway.

Lasers just cause you to play differently, kinda like when you fight Puff and you can't just charge/DD her either because there's a wall of foot there. Have you ever tried to WD OOS in between lasers? You can do it consistently and it allows you control over the space between yourself and Falco in a somewhat safe fashion. You can do a lot out of a WD or OOS so plenty of options are available there, and it's not like you're losing much advantage there either since Falco takes a lot of time to laser as well(don't know frames on a SHL but a WD is 10 I believe so I'd have a hard time believing a SHL is less than that anyway).

 

[Mew2King]

yeah I can shield grab it (at least the dair, I'm not sure about the nair cuz sometimes it feels like I could shield grab but they ALWAYS shine so maybe not, maybe if it's just a very slightly delayed nair but still pretty early they can shine, at least it feels that way), that's why I shield grab falco so often, because people do early aerials and I got into the habit of shield grabbing them. The best way to pressure with falco Imo is to just land behind them and shine. It's good against a lot of characters.

edit - actually thinking about it again... I'm not sure if I can shield grab it

while fighting mango's falco last year I used to try to shield grab his dairs/nairs but then he'd just shine right away and then nair/dair backwards out of my range. He would get that shine off before I could grab most of the time. So either I'm timing it bad or certain height aerials can't be grabbed.

 

[Deleted member]

Lasers just cause you to play differently

and you don't think anything that forces you to play differently even at a basic level is a large advantage?

even if falco has these weaknesses ( the degree here is debatable at best), you overstate them substantially. falco's laser, however slow it may be, is still a GODLY control tool in a game that simply....doesn't have that many! especially when there are tons of tools built into the mechanics to avoid true stage control in the first place; DI, wavelanding, differing shields, crouching, and a whole slew of non-mechanical options should you choose to use those instead. If all you're using laser for is stage control and not approaching or edge guarding or flat out camping, that's still better (this term is relative here) than anything any other character can fundamentally do from a neutral position.

Even if falco had mediocre attacks and not fox's + range + better combos, he would still be strictly better than say samus, just because of the laser. Over half of the game's competitive lifespan has HEAVILY favored falco over fox in terms of performance and the rate at which top-level players emerge, so we don't even need this kind of speculation.

 

[Mew2King]

First of all, I wouldn't recommend doing an Fsmash at tipper Fsmash range if I hit you with a laser from there. You need to be outside of tipper range somewhat so you can hit Falco as he moves into you. You could maybe uptilt though....or WD back....or you know, just shield. If I Nair you then you could CC anyway.

I know I was just letting you know the range I was talking about. I probably wouldn't try it that close. But it's really easy to avoid. I think up tilting is better cuz of the follow ups it has and it's much faster

I do think that DD grab ***** Fox's style. When people get used to the dash dance grab that I do and try to overshoot me, I either standing grab or dash grab them lol (mixed with random other things that I do), then do a large combo from that grab. Let's say the odds of me getting the DD grab or grab mindgame off on Fox is 50/50 (even though it's better than that for me imo), I'll still have a huge advantage because I am very strong at the combo follow ups from that grab. That same concept is what i'm talking about with falco. If falco does mix ups in pressure and guesses correctly (at least 50/50 chance since he has tons of options and is hard to guess but he can keep track of all the details in his head, but I just say 50/50 to be on the safe side even though it's better than that for falco) he can do a large combo or nice positional follow up from that, which is why he's such a great character. Same with jiggs cuz of rest. The rewards they get for their correct guesses are extremely large. They are fatal on all stages.

Btw, landing lag from any air dodge (for all 26 characters.... I tested them all) is 10 frames. Landing lag normally (for 22 of the 26 characters... I think..) is 4 frames (Bowser Ganon and Pichu are exceptions maybe one more). SHL is 1 frame added to that. SHL landing lag is 5 frames for Fox and Falco (I'm like 99% sure). I did tests on these many many many years ago.

 

[Dr Peepee]

yeah I can shield grab it (at least the dair, I'm not sure about the nair cuz sometimes it feels like I could shield grab but they ALWAYS shine so maybe not, maybe if it's just a very slightly delayed nair but still pretty early they can shine, at least it feels that way), that's why I shield grab falco so often, because people do early aerials and I got into the habit of shield grabbing them. The best way to pressure with falco Imo is to just land behind them and shine. It's good against a lot of characters.

edit - actually thinking about it again... I'm not sure if I can shield grab it

while fighting mango's falco last year I used to try to shield grab his dairs/nairs but then he'd just shine right away and then nair/dair backwards out of my range. He would get that shine off before I could grab most of the time. So either I'm timing it bad or certain height aerials can't be grabbed.

Stop trying to shield grab so much vs good Falcos haha. They'll do the aerials deceptively high but they can get away with more than you think with the approaching aerial. After that is where things get easier for you.

and you don't think anything that forces you to play differently even at a basic level is a large advantage?

even if falco has these weaknesses ( the degree here is debatable at best), you overstate them substantially. falco's laser, however slow it may be, is still a GODLY control tool in a game that simply....doesn't have that many! especially when there are tons of tools built into the mechanics to avoid true stage control in the first place; DI, wavelanding, differing shields, crouching, and a whole slew of non-mechanical options should you choose to use those instead. If all you're using laser for is stage control and not approaching or edge guarding or flat out camping, that's still better (this term is relative here) than anything any other character can fundamentally do from a neutral position.

Even if falco had mediocre attacks and not fox's + range + better combos, he would still be strictly better than say samus, just because of the laser. Over half of the game's competitive lifespan has HEAVILY favored falco over fox in terms of performance and the rate at which top-level players emerge, so we don't even need this kind of speculation.

Eh I see the laser helping Falco around his large speed disadvantage if anything. Evens the field out more. You lose the ability to DD **** Puff because she's floating in the air all of the time but that doesn't make her broken. To be fair, Puff floating around actually makes it kinda tough for Falco to make his laser game as effective as it is vs people that like to DD anyway, which makes me laugh at the irony but that's irrelevant.

If Falco had Fox's speed over range or any of that stuff then I'd be more afraid of him. He's so slow that some characters can still WD around and take advantage of his slow speed and make him look silly, and this is just on the ground level.

Also, what does the laser really do? It forces an approach and deals some damage. The laser doesn't have to realistically stop anyone from moving around at all if they're competent with their jump/WD(OOS, etc)/platform game. It's just a souped up projectile that people don't like because it's fast but stuns a little too.

You're basing your stuff on results, and I'm basing mine on what I've experienced and done myself. Nothing I've said I couldn't show you or show you a way around(or trivialize in the case of laser effectiveness).

I know I was just letting you know the range I was talking about. I probably wouldn't try it that close. But it's really easy to avoid. I think up tilting is better cuz of the follow ups it has and it's much faster

I do think that DD grab ***** Fox's style. When people get used to the dash dance grab that I do and try to overshoot me, I either standing grab or dash grab them lol (mixed with random other things that I do)

I agree. =) You just can't DD grab Falco much lol.

Edit @ frame data: whoa, that's pretty interesting. I suppose I was right in that you can't WD OOS as much offensively as I'd have hoped(I'm sure potential is still there for it though), but defensively you'd definitely still have frame advantage on it.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

and you don't think anything that forces you to play differently even at a basic level is a large advantage?

****, umbreon is proving tomacawk's theory. Fox can't play the same vs ganondorf and pichu so ganondorf DOES counter fox!!!!!!

 

[Mew2King]

you should stop posting and just let me umbreon and drpp talk

 

[Deleted member]

you should stop posting and just let me umbreon and drpp talk

sometimes i feel like all i do is ***** about falco. i wish my fingers could still play as well as my brain without hundreds of hours of practice again. looks like you're starting to get the same way. it's okay, i'm finally starting to think that marth isn't bull**** after all this time. we can still play first gen pokemon together, that was more fun anyway.

edit: kevin I'll concede this argument in your favor. even if you're willing to accept my points in a logical manner as per how a debate usually goes, I'm too hard-headed to do the same, so it's a moot point. i'm done posting in this thread.

edit 2: sveet stop being stupid. strawman arguments warrant neither consideration nor do they hold any relevancy even if there was some correlation. your sarcasm wasn't even good.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Jason, why the hate? I never even said my own opinion, i just pointed out flaws in your argument. I'm not trying to be a ****, only enlighten you to the ignorance of your logic.

In many ways, I do agree with you. I think fox falco and puff are all friggin good characters. TBH i dont see the point in arguing their positions. They are clearly all in the same tier and clearly all are better than marth/sheik/peach. Unless ur arguing that one belongs in a tier above the others.... I dont think you are. Arguing their placements is futile, its all opinion. You won't change your opinion no matter how many times PP says "there are holes in falcos game that people can exploit" and he won't change his no matter how many times you talk about PC and Mango winning tournaments with him for X years.

 

[Mew2King]

idk your posts seem rude and unnecessary lately that's all and yeah i do think spacies and jiggs are a tier above marth/sheik/peach slightly. I think marth/sheik is a tier above peach in pal tho

 

[Dr Peepee]

sometimes i feel like all i do is ***** about falco. i wish my fingers could still play as well as my brain without hundreds of hours of practice again. looks like you're starting to get the same way. it's okay, i'm finally starting to think that marth isn't bull**** after all this time. we can still play first gen pokemon together, that was more fun anyway.

edit: kevin I'll concede this argument in your favor. even if you're willing to accept my points in a logical manner as per how a debate usually goes, I'm too hard-headed to do the same, so it's a moot point. i'm done posting in this thread.

edit 2: sveet stop being stupid. strawman arguments warrant neither consideration nor do they hold any relevancy even if there was some correlation. your sarcasm wasn't even good.

I wish I was old-school. You guys get all the perks. =(

Like I said, my opinions are controversial so I'm not expecting you or anyone else to readily agree with me haha. I fully understand why you say what you do and am always on the lookout to see if what you say holds water, no worries. =)

Jason, why the hate? I never even said my own opinion, i just pointed out flaws in your argument. I'm not trying to be a ****, only enlighten you to the ignorance of your logic.

In many ways, I do agree with you. I think fox falco and puff are all friggin good characters. TBH i dont see the point in arguing their positions. They are clearly all in the same tier and clearly all are better than marth/sheik/peach. Unless ur arguing that one belongs in a tier above the others.... I dont think you are. Arguing their placements is futile, its all opinion. You won't change your opinion no matter how many times PP says "there are holes in falcos game that people can exploit" and he won't change his no matter how many times you talk about PC and Mango winning tournaments with him for X years.

I think Falco is the 4th best character in ssbm. I think Puff is 5th.

There's a reason I keep my opinions to myself lol.

 

[Mew2King]

I think it goes
1) planking jiggs
2) falco
3) fox

4) sheik
5) marth

6) peach
7) Falcon
8) ICs

9) Doc
10) Samus? idk around 10 and on. Mario Samus DK Ganon Pikachu maybe even Luigi could be around here

even tho I haven't done it for like half a year, I planked hax twice and 4 stocked his falcon twice by just planking with jiggs. He can tell you how stupid it is. I beat Taj Forward and Axe every game with planking jiggs when I went to Devastation 2010 and played with them in friendlies for a day. They can all attest to it being broken because I showed them. It only truely works vs the 3 fast fallers (fox falco falcon), most effective against falcon, but it's a good strategy where she has a constant positional advantage the entire time. There are ways around it yes but the advantage she has is HUGE there. Risk/Reward is heavily in her favor. She can just start planking once she is at kill %. Even though it only is effective vs those 3 characters and is beatable, being able to have a huge advantage once she gets the lead or once she gets at kill % + has the lead vs 3 very common characters is a huge advantage to an already amazing character which would make her the best if played like that.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I will believe planking puff when you show it to me I guess. I haven't ever experienced it so I guess I'll leave it alone.

Everything else is touchy grounds and my list is weird lol.

I'll do it anyway so you guys can all hate on me.

1. Fox
2. Sheik
3. Marth
4. Falco
5. Puff

That's good enough to get me killed so we'll leave it at that lol.

note: my list changes(at least among top 3) about once every two weeks/month usually

 

[Mew2King]

I agree with the Fox then Sheik then Marth part, but I still think you're underrating Falco and jigglypuff

also I know I have uncommon opinions sometime but honestly I don't care. I'm not going to base what I say off of what people would like me to say. I'm going to say what I truely believe based on what I know

PP I can show you, but the thing is I'm not very skilled with jigglypuff outside of just being gay. So you'll have to pretend someone is a lot more skilled with her than me, and then factor in the planking part, and somehow put it together. Slow characters don't suit my style I need speed that's how I play

marth has a weakness that once you get inside him he becomes a lot worse because he needs space to move. People that know how to fight Marth well I usually use different characters

 

[Rubyiris]

jiggs cant plank.

so heres a question for umbreon/m2k/pp: How does one strengthen their mental game? I find it difficult/neigh impossible to play the game analytically. It's taking everything I have to space my character in relation to theirs, not **** up my technical skill, and reliably react to their character's movements and directional influence. I can bait, and predict on a rudimentary level but I don't have the mental capacity to play the player.

When I'm playing smash I don't have the ability to take into account the other humans habits, and patterns. The best I'm currently able to do is play character match ups and adjust my play style based on their own.

I always try to convince myself that I'm more than just another ****** falco that pushes lots of buttons and beats mid/high level players but the more I play the game the more I realize I'm just VERY good at pushing buttons like I has the derp.

So yeah, wat do?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Like I said, if the planking is really THAT bad when I play it then I'll believe it. I haven't seen a video of you or Hbox or whoever doing it and haven't experienced it myself so it's hard for me to understand right now. I'm just going with non-planking puff atm.

Falco is where he is because I feel like vs players/characters that can capitalize on his speed and maneuver around lasers effectively while working the holes in his laser game he loses a lot more than he does in what we see today/the modern metagame/whatever you call it.

 

[Mew2King]

i dunno, and jiggs can plank the 3 fast fallers. I'll show you in person if you want, even though I haven't done it since Apex

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

edit 2: sveet stop being stupid. strawman arguments warrant neither consideration nor do they hold any relevancy even if there was some correlation. your sarcasm wasn't even good.

just caught this.

theres a difference between strawman arguments and a true analogy. You used his words out of context and i used a sentence that articulates the difference between what PP meant and what you interpreted his words as.

fyi, he meant it in the way that falco is a different character than fox so must be treated differently. Read my post again and reply if you want.

 

[Dr Peepee]

i dunno, and jiggs can plank the 3 fast fallers. I'll show you in person if you want, even though I haven't done it since Apex

Read your edit and this, and that'll be much better than whatever I have/know now haha. Please show me if you don't mind, I'm interested.

 

[unknown522]

man, I read that whole discussion. Jeez, there was a lot of super situational theory craft there.

Also, I personally think that falco is the best in the game as well, but I also think that the top 5 characters can all hold their own against each other and have relatively close matchups (besides marth v sheik maybe and possibly jiggs v sheik).

I also think that the top 5 chars have at least 1 losing matchup.

Also, there's no way in hell marth is limited. Huge range + low lag and auto-death combos on the 2 best chars in the game? c'mon.

 

[Beat!]

Mango thinks Sheik/Marth are the best chars, and that spacies/Puff are overrated.
Hbox thinks Puff is 5th.
Armada thinks Puff is 1st, and Fox 2nd.
M2K thinks Puff/Falco are the best chars, and that Fox/Marth/Sheik are overrated.
DR PeePee thinks Falco is overrated and that Fox/Sheik/Marth are the best chars.

I see nothing but bias.

 

[FoxLisk]

damn. sounds to me like m2k is salty.

anyway. any reason why you can't just take a laser and then DD grab if falco is coming in with an aerial? i'd put money on there being time for it.

and dont give me the reason "because what if he lasers again?" because that isn't a reason.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I've tried it but I think it doesn't quite work. WD back grab is easier and more effective.

I mean that's if you have to grab anyway lol.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

The grass is always greener on the other side.

 

[bossa nova ♪]

pretty sure juangrybox said he thought puff was 2nd

 

[Bamesy]

pretty sure this game is too good to have a 'solid' order.
Mango, Vicious, and others with me were talking about the tiers at Rom3 and how Shiek/Marth were 1st.
I'll always say Shiek is the best (M2K you've said it too a lot I'm sure) and I'm sticking with that.
But she has to counter what the spacies/others develop, so she'll usually be a bit behind until some work is put in as much as it is to Falcos. Too many Falcos around here. lol
My last day as a Falco main though. <3
Thanks for the convo you guys, good timing for a last burst of Flacothoughts.

PSing isn't that hard. Nair is good as Marth against Flaco...
Be more aggro and don't camp...camping leads to lasers to the face...and if you can't PS them then it sucks.
lol

 

[Mogwai]

oh, this turned into a tier list thread?

1. Falco
2. Fox
3. Jiggs

4. Sheik
5. Marf
6. Peach

7. Falcon (I put him in the tier above to not have really small tiers, but he's clearly worse than the others in that tier IMO)

8. ICs
9. Ganon
10. Samoose

11-26. other people

imoimoimo.


The discussion was interesting in here but I think Mow reached the right conclusion (that it's ultimately going nowhere). My $0.02 on the matter is that when you try to unify a community on a tier list, you need to be willing to accept that recent results must weigh heavily on it. I feel like every top player is really resistant to saying that their character is the best because they carry a huge amount of pride on their accomplishments and don't want the community to think less of them as a player because of the perception of their character. While I understand this impulse, I can't help but think that the discussions ultimately look really childish when every top player's top two characters are characters that they don't play. It just comes off as a great big pissing contest for who had a harder road to the top IMO.

When you come right down to it though, Super IRL Bros Melee is exceptionally well balanced game among the top 5 or 6 characters and almost any way you can arrange them is going to make sense to somebody and look like a load of **** to somebody else. If you ask me, we as a community simply need to accept the fact that our tier lists and perceptions of "the best character" are heavily influenced by tournament results and we should start calling Falco "the best" until proven otherwise and put Pikachu above Ganon because Axe exists.

 

[bossa nova ♪]

it's not necessarily because they want to put emphasis on their accomplishments...


sometimes it's just that a top player knows her character well enough to see flaws in it that other players who specialize in other characters just don't recognize.... if anything, PP bringing all of this up is just going to be helpful to the metagame, i very much doubt that he's saying things like "falco is 4th" just to say them for his own sake.... not that kinda guy in my opinion.
which is pretty evident by the "yall just dont know how to fight him" part..