PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[KirbyKaze]

y'all care too much about who the best character is

just learn to play

then win

lololol

Mogwai is correct in that top 5-6 characters can be put in any order with a decent argument

Except I say 5 because Peach isn't as good as the others

In spite of how much certain people want her to be


edit: Samoose *****

 

[bossa nova ♪]

Peach's eternally floating stitch face is top 5

 

[KirbyKaze]

Part of the trouble of Peach in the tier list is that "lucky Peach" is a very different character than "Peach", and you're not sure if you're fighting "lucky Peach" or just "Peach" until she pulls her 4th Stitch.

Also, Peach KirbyKaze is about 7-3 for the Peach. I don't know how Vwins so frequently pulls bombs when I'm offstage, but it's very frustrating lololol

 

[bossa nova ♪]

what a cool *** character, ytf isn't there a black costume


but yeah theoretically Peach is the best, she got ovaries fulla trix

 

[KirbyKaze]

I wish there was a legit Shadow Queen Peach costume.

 

[forward]

I'm under the school of thought that the tier list can change weekly/monthly, etc., like the SF tier lists. For the official tier list I voted puff as #1, but right now I might say Falco because PP is outplaying everyone because he's evolved Falco's metagame. Well, maybe he's degenerated it with his basic RobFalco up-tilt. j/k PP, I love what you've done with up tilts.

So, I agree with PP that Falco is slow, but perhaps more than his lasers that balance out his speed is his weight. Falco's CC shuts down a lot of options. If lasers make up for Falco's slow speed on offense, then his weight makes up for his slow speed on defense.

What I've been testing lately is, at low %, jumping into Falco's dairs instead of shielding them. You end up taking less stun than a CC because it works like what happens when Fox does a dair to someone in the air and takes them to the ground with it. As soon as they hit the ground their hit stun is gone and they can shield. I know this works well in Falco dittos, jump out of shield before a dair hits you and counter with a shine, it may or may not work well for others. I could potentially see a character jumping into the dair and grabbing Falco before he has a chance to do anything. Of course this is very risky so it may be awhile before, if ever, it becomes practical for match ups other than the Falco ditto.

Another disadvantageous position I've run into a lot lately (but unfortunately haven't been punished for as much as I could, so I don't know how further developed the position is) is during Falco shield pressure/pillaring, rolling behind Falco after he shines and he does a short hop aerial. Falcos try to predict those rolls and so they shoot a laser in the direction they think the opponent will roll after they do the shine. If they call that and the laser connects then the Falco still has the advantage. However, if Falco doesn't call the roll, and the opponent rolls behind Falco as he does a nair or dair it puts Falco at a significant disadvantage.

Like I said, I haven't been punished from this position as much as I could, but usually when this happens I do a retreating reverse SHL which I know is vulnerable to a dash attack. I have not had the chance to try a counter to the dash attack specifically because I have not been punished enough for my lasers, but I theorize that a SH dair or bair would counter the dash attack, and I theorize that a run > shield would counter that, or perhaps buffering a CC in the dash would be an option select to cover both a retreating laser and a SH aerieal.

I'm looking forward to the rest of the WGF videos from DR PP to see what other tactics he's been using b/c so far I've found a lot worth using myself.

Good stuff dude *thumbs up*

 

[Mogwai]

it's not necessarily because they want to put emphasis on their accomplishments...


sometimes it's just that a top player knows her character well enough to see flaws in it that other players who specialize in other characters just don't recognize.... if anything, PP bringing all of this up is just going to be helpful to the metagame, i very much doubt that he's saying things like "falco is 4th" just to say them for his own sake.... not that kinda guy in my opinion.
which is pretty evident by the "yall just dont know how to fight him" part..

I tend to think it's subconscious, but I still think the resulting conversations between top players on the top of the tier list often look amusingly childish (especially the M2K vs. Mango ones, lol).

 

[KirbyKaze]

That jump into Dair business is sometimes used unintentionally by Peaches, who then get free D-smashes.

 

[Mogwai]

That jump into Dair business is sometimes used unintentionally by Peaches, who then get free D-smashes.

zzz, how u no it's unintentional?


jump into dairs is **** when it works, but it sucks when you call a dair and the Falco nairs instead. It's the sort of thing you need to predict since you don't have time to react so it's use is pretty delicate imo.

 

[Brookman]

I saw stricnyn doing that jump into dair **** @ ROM3. On top of a ton of some other extremely impressive things.

 

[bossa nova ♪]

@KK: that would be beautiful o.o


@forward: PP showed me that jump thing.... it's really annoying... i guess i'm just gonna.... uthrow at low percents and hope they don't SDI the lasers..... and shine is cool too


random ****: falco's need to find the best ways to cross the opponent up while they're in shield....getting behind them is so safe and lovely.... mixing this in as much as you can puts the opponent in a really bad position where they can fall into some very obvious rolling patterns


falco's! better **** than sorry! before your grabs try shining!

 

[Rubyiris]

Hey cool, my post was completely ignored! Good ****ing job, guys. Real damn mature.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Quiet, Ruby. The adults are talking.

edit: Mogwai, they're Peaches. Like, duh?

 

[Melomaniacal]

Hey cool, my post was completely ignored! Good ****ing job, guys. Real damn mature.

Posts get ignored all the time, don't get so worked up over it.

 

[forward]

I just watched grand finals of WGF and here are what I think are the two biggest strengths of PP's Falco right now.

Up tilt - I swear to god, I'm not just saying this because I like it but he gets a lot of free combos with it and at least a quarter of the time it could have been avoided but people are not used to the move. Ahh, that brings me back. The days when Falco's up tilt was broken and ***** everything. People challenge the up tilt shield pressure, not realizing how fast the move actually, or realizing its range and priority, and get hurt badly for it. It's an unconventional approach as well, people expect a shuffle and PP just lands and goes straight into the up tilt. Leads to a lot of shield pokes and works great. This is an example of PP outplaying people. He's developed tactics that people can't handle yet and pushed the metagame in his favor.

Tip #1 for beating PP, respect the up tilt.

The second strength: That times that PP DOESN'T attack.
I like this, his thinking is "why bother predicting my opponents defense to a shuffle and having to guess which shuffle variation I have to use when I know that, at the heart of this situation, the opponent will simply not challenge my approach. The person is so trained to look for an approach/aerial that I have time to land and position myself to start shield from a less technically demanding position"

That **** is genius. Not because it's a new concept but because of how often PP has proved that the tactic can be abused.

Hats off to you sir.

 

[Mogwai]

Hey cool, my post was completely ignored! Good ****ing job, guys. Real damn mature.

People would be more sympathetic if you quoted yourself and humbly asked for advice. You tried to segue a conversation that 3 players were having amongst themselves into turning all their attention to your question and you're calling them immature for ignoring you?

 

[Alukard]

wow that was an interesting read ... i just think that this game is too good that we are still arguing whos the best in the game ... =]

gotta love melee <3

 

[Mogwai]

wow that was an interesting read ... i just think that this game is too good that we are still arguing whos the best in the game ... =]

gotta love melee <3

Melee sucks, it's way too hard

 

[Rubyiris]

People would be more sympathetic if you quoted yourself and humbly asked for advice. You tried to segue a conversation that 3 players were having amongst themselves into turning all their attention to your question and you're calling them immature for ignoring you?

This is a forum, not a chat room.

Yes I damn well did. I'm salty as ****. Why is it that when I troll, people eat everything I post up, but when I ask for genuine advice, especially about aspects of the game I have MAJOR problems with, I'm up and ignored?

I'd like to point out that this isn't the first time it's happened. Try like the 20th in the last year alone.

 

[choknater]

maybe people just dont feel like responding, just calm down about it and kindly ask again. u dont needa have an attitude bro!

peepee is a respectable homie and is great at giving advice/cool discussion whenever he gets to it

 

[bossa nova ♪]

can we just make it a rule to ignore rubyiris....


it turns this thread into what he wants it to be: about him


like i really dont think he wants advice, he has to just be yearning for attention... otherwise he'd quit being a ****** and find a way to get very personal, involved advice on something like 'improving his mental game' if his original attempt didn't work in this thread.... i have a solution in mind, but i don't want to annoy a good friend of mine


but yeah he seems very lonely, sure, we can all sympathize with that, but we gotta teach him the right way to make friends, so let's pretend he doesn't exist for the sake of everyone else yayyyyy!!

 

[choknater]

mkay back to falco, matchups, peepee's godliness, etc

totally agree with forward's posts haha. his textbook falco play with a lot of those little mixups thrown in is pretty much redefining 'textbook falco'

the metagame has gotten a lot more precise. i gotta keep up with my ic's!!

 

[Mogwai]

This is a forum, not a chat room.

Yes I damn well did. I'm salty as ****. Why is it that when I troll, people eat everything I post up, but when I ask for genuine advice, especially about aspects of the game I have MAJOR problems with, I'm up and ignored?

I'd like to point out that this isn't the first time it's happened. Try like the 20th in the last year alone.

you asked 3 people. You've done this before and you ***** about it when someone else tries to respond. Mow left the thread. So now we're down to 2 people who could theoretically care about your question and whom you'd care about answering. Let's look again at what you were asking:

jiggs cant plank.

ok, so right off the bat, you're telling M2K that he's wrong about Jiggs with no explanation. Not making any friends here and he's less likely to respond when you're antagonizing him.

so heres a question for umbreon/m2k/pp: How does one strengthen their mental game? I find it difficult/neigh impossible to play the game analytically. It's taking everything I have to space my character in relation to theirs, not **** up my technical skill, and reliably react to their character's movements and directional influence. I can bait, and predict on a rudimentary level but I don't have the mental capacity to play the player.

When I'm playing smash I don't have the ability to take into account the other humans habits, and patterns. The best I'm currently able to do is play character match ups and adjust my play style based on their own.

I always try to convince myself that I'm more than just another ****** falco that pushes lots of buttons and beats mid/high level players but the more I play the game the more I realize I'm just VERY good at pushing buttons like I has the derp.

So yeah, wat do?

And then we get to this glorious run-on question that has no real answer and could've been posed to anyone and they'd all be just as likely to be able to give you advice. What makes exceptional players any more qualified to tell you what you need to do to get better about thinking about the game mid-game than any other player of comparable skill to yourself?

Here's a response for you... play more or slow down. If you're thinking about tech skill and that's preventing you from actively thinking about anything else, you just have 2 options:
1. get good enough at the tech skill that you don't have to think about it
or
2. stop doing tech that you need to think about
so pick one and do it.

 

[Cactuar]

oh, this turned into a tier list thread?

1. Falco
2. Fox
3. Jiggs

4. Sheik
5. Marf
6. Peach

7. Falcon (I put him in the tier above to not have really small tiers, but he's clearly worse than the others in that tier IMO)

8. ICs
9. Ganon
10. Samoose

11-26. other people

imoimoimo.


The discussion was interesting in here but I think Mow reached the right conclusion (that it's ultimately going nowhere). My $0.02 on the matter is that when you try to unify a community on a tier list, you need to be willing to accept that recent results must weigh heavily on it. I feel like every top player is really resistant to saying that their character is the best because they carry a huge amount of pride on their accomplishments and don't want the community to think less of them as a player because of the perception of their character. While I understand this impulse, I can't help but think that the discussions ultimately look really childish when every top player's top two characters are characters that they don't play. It just comes off as a great big pissing contest for who had a harder road to the top IMO.

When you come right down to it though, Super IRL Bros Melee is exceptionally well balanced game among the top 5 or 6 characters and almost any way you can arrange them is going to make sense to somebody and look like a load of **** to somebody else. If you ask me, we as a community simply need to accept the fact that our tier lists and perceptions of "the best character" are heavily influenced by tournament results and we should start calling Falco "the best" until proven otherwise and put Pikachu above Ganon because Axe exists.

I think I put it into words better in the MBR, but the tier list should be crafted around 3 things (finding the proper weight for each is a science on its own, but rest assured, they would not be equally weighted)...

Current tournament placement (Purely numbers)
Characters played at peak human ability (Open to discussion)
Perfect Play (Super Theory Bros. Melee)


But really we just vote and go by mass opinion. lolol


@Ruby: What Mogwai said is pretty sound. One of the pieces of advice I give most often is that people need to SLOW DOWN their play.

 

[Rubyiris]

m2k is wrong jiggs can't plank.

I've already tried minimizing my technical skill. It helped immensely with consistency and definitely took it off my mind, but it really hasn't helped me improve my mental game. I'm really liking the results playing minimalistic is giving me so I've started to stick with it, however.

 

[choknater]

lol, actually m2k showed me jiggs' planking at my house against falco and it's pretty darn effective. melee tournaments don't enforce ledge grab rules and this kind of planking can't legitimately be called stalling... it is certainly VERY powerful against fast fallers. seen this from firsthand experience, idk if it's as SUPER broken as he makes it out to be but it's actually really powerful.

however, falco just has to do what he should always do vs characters that can potentially camp him, and it's not that hard: gain the lead first

 

[Rubyiris]

Jigglypuff does not have infinite invincibility and when she jumps to grab the ledge her head always sticks out from the top of the ledge since she can't sweetspot properly. Just catch her with a tilt/dsmash or do a runoff dj bair back to the stage. :\

Or keep the lead. The latter is probably the easiest. The former is possible, you just need to be careful.

 

[Brookman]

If it's that easy why not throw down some cash vs. m2k's planking puff?

Brookman, Mogwai, Druggedfox, FlipX, strawhats, Bryan500, Paju, ArcNatural, Mokumo, Ron, mers

 

[Rubyiris]

I won't even be at a tourney m2k is until at least g2. >_>

I wouldn't mind throwing a $ down though.

 

[Beat!]

pretty sure juangrybox said he thought puff was 2nd

Check the statistics for the tier list. Hbox ranked Puff as 5th.

 

[Rubyiris]

i still believe the tier list for super irl bros melee should be falco fox sheik marth peach puff falcon lol.

 

[Beat!]

edit: why did I even say that

 

[Druggedfox]

If it's that easy why not throw down some cash vs. m2k's planking puff?

Brookman, Mogwai, Druggedfox, FlipX, strawhats, Bryan500, Paju, ArcNatural, Mokumo, Ron, mers

I'd do it with fox playing as gay as possible >_>

But the two things with planking puff are:

1)Nobody abuses it
2)If it truly IS broken then when people start abusing it, it'll get banned.

Either way, there's no reason to talk about planking puff until it starts getting used. Also, falco has serious trouble dealing with planking jigglypuff overall, though there are a few ways around it that I thought of... but its definitely extremely risky for falco overall.

The thing about uptilt shield pressure is... it does NOT work. PP conditions his opponents well, which is awesome. The thing is, people will eventually stop falling for it. Things like empty hop-->uptilt are really really good, but if falco dair -->uptilts on shield there is absolutely *no* reason to be getting hit by it seeing as the standard option is shine after dair. Either way it isn't safe to try to move OoS immediately following a falco's aerial, its not like uptilt covers a different option than shine does for the most part. Yes, respect falco's uptilt; don't be an idiot though. If falco ever uptilts your shield it is a free grab --> autocombo for most characters.

Edit: I still think uptilt is ridiculously broken/good though

 

[ArcNatural]

Jigglypuff does not have infinite invincibility and when she jumps to grab the ledge her head always sticks out from the top of the ledge since she can't sweetspot properly. Just catch her with a tilt/dsmash or do a runoff dj bair back to the stage. :\
Or keep the lead. The latter is probably the easiest. The former is possible, you just need to be careful.

You didn't add anything new to the table here.

It only truely works vs the 3 fast fallers (fox falco falcon), most effective against falcon, but it's a good strategy where she has a constant positional advantage the entire time. There are ways around it yes but the advantage she has is HUGE there. Risk/Reward is heavily in her favor. She can just start planking once she is at kill %. Even though it only is effective vs those 3 characters and is beatable, being able to have a huge advantage once she gets the lead or once she gets at kill % + has the lead vs 3 very common characters is a huge advantage to an already amazing character which would make her the best if played like that.

M2k never said it wasn't beatable. He said that it's a pretty big advantage to Jigglypuff. And let's shorten your quote further and discuss reasons why it's possibly an advantage for Puff.

Just catch her with a tilt/dsmash or do a runoff dj bair back to the stage. :\

Run off bair with the 3 fast fallers seems extremely risky. You hit Jiggs and... what exactly? at low % she will be out of stun and still close to the stage and possibly be able to gimp/hit you, just for the risk of bairing. To me it feels like your risking a lot just to hit Jiggs, where if jiggs predicts anything (and your really limited on options here as regardless your going to have to move torwards the edge to do anything, there isn't much variation to this specific situation). You can't fake an approach and run away and punish if they fell for it, since they will just grab the edge again.

Dtilt seems the safest out of these options to me. But it involves you getting close to the edge, either by walking, wavedashing or jumping. All which if Jiggs predicts and say pounds into the edge your in trouble, or if she just fair/bair camps it. It's not a terribad situation. But at the best your trading hits for a risk of getting pounded or just as likely to get hit as you are to hit the jiggs, since jiggs can just throw another jump in and fair/bair you rather than regrab the edge.

Dsmash seems more risky than dtilt to me for less reward, I can't be certain but i think for most stages except maybe yoshi's FoD, dtilt will kill sooner than dsmash will. And in your lag depending on % if you miss Jiggs could possibly upair or simply jump up rest you.

Your best solutions are as you stated earlier, to simply not let Jiggs have the % or stock lead. Other than that, while beatable, planking seems to give Jiggs a solid advantage in the fact that anything you try to do to hit her is much more obvious than anything on the stage where baiting and spacing are more apparent.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

druggedfox you may have missed it but we went over utilt frame data a few pages back. If the utilt hits the opponent's shield on the first frame of the hitbox and the opponent grabs as soon as the shield stun is gone, falco can shine the same frame the grab hitbox comes out.

there are 11 frames of shield stun from the utilt, it first hits on frame 5 and it has IASA on frame 23

 

[Dr Peepee]

oh, this turned into a tier list thread?

1. Falco
2. Fox
3. Jiggs

4. Sheik
5. Marf
6. Peach

7. Falcon (I put him in the tier above to not have really small tiers, but he's clearly worse than the others in that tier IMO)

8. ICs
9. Ganon
10. Samoose

11-26. other people

imoimoimo.


The discussion was interesting in here but I think Mow reached the right conclusion (that it's ultimately going nowhere). My $0.02 on the matter is that when you try to unify a community on a tier list, you need to be willing to accept that recent results must weigh heavily on it. I feel like every top player is really resistant to saying that their character is the best because they carry a huge amount of pride on their accomplishments and don't want the community to think less of them as a player because of the perception of their character. While I understand this impulse, I can't help but think that the discussions ultimately look really childish when every top player's top two characters are characters that they don't play. It just comes off as a great big pissing contest for who had a harder road to the top IMO.

When you come right down to it though, Super IRL Bros Melee is exceptionally well balanced game among the top 5 or 6 characters and almost any way you can arrange them is going to make sense to somebody and look like a load of **** to somebody else. If you ask me, we as a community simply need to accept the fact that our tier lists and perceptions of "the best character" are heavily influenced by tournament results and we should start calling Falco "the best" until proven otherwise and put Pikachu above Ganon because Axe exists.

LOL I'll admit, I understand Falco better than any other character and don't deny that at all, but to say that I'm whining about Falco when I've seen what can be exploited is simply not true. I love Falco, feel like I can solve any problem with him, and enjoy staying true to him when other Falcos didn't(like vs Puff lots of em went Fox). He's fun.

I take into account what a lot of other players say about tier lists and character abilities, why else would my top 3 on my tier list change so often(granted I've felt like putting Falco below puff on mine a week or so ago for factors I forgot so it's kinda the top 5)? Just because I don't readily accept what these people say doesn't mean I'm being pissy. It just means that I'm not easily swayed. I need to be thoroughly convinced that a character is a certain way, and most people don't take the time out to form a well-crafted argument that is many points long to convince me, and THEN to continue to do so when I respond to them. To do this properly is a lot of effort and time spent so that's why I kinda only get half-convinced on a lot of things, or have to go seek out the answers on my own.

Sorry I don't agree with you.

I'm under the school of thought that the tier list can change weekly/monthly, etc., like the SF tier lists. For the official tier list I voted puff as #1, but right now I might say Falco because PP is outplaying everyone because he's evolved Falco's metagame. Well, maybe he's degenerated it with his basic RobFalco up-tilt. j/k PP, I love what you've done with up tilts.

So, I agree with PP that Falco is slow, but perhaps more than his lasers that balance out his speed is his weight. Falco's CC shuts down a lot of options. If lasers make up for Falco's slow speed on offense, then his weight makes up for his slow speed on defense.

What I've been testing lately is, at low %, jumping into Falco's dairs instead of shielding them. You end up taking less stun than a CC because it works like what happens when Fox does a dair to someone in the air and takes them to the ground with it. As soon as they hit the ground their hit stun is gone and they can shield. I know this works well in Falco dittos, jump out of shield before a dair hits you and counter with a shine, it may or may not work well for others. I could potentially see a character jumping into the dair and grabbing Falco before he has a chance to do anything. Of course this is very risky so it may be awhile before, if ever, it becomes practical for match ups other than the Falco ditto.

Another disadvantageous position I've run into a lot lately (but unfortunately haven't been punished for as much as I could, so I don't know how further developed the position is) is during Falco shield pressure/pillaring, rolling behind Falco after he shines and he does a short hop aerial. Falcos try to predict those rolls and so they shoot a laser in the direction they think the opponent will roll after they do the shine. If they call that and the laser connects then the Falco still has the advantage. However, if Falco doesn't call the roll, and the opponent rolls behind Falco as he does a nair or dair it puts Falco at a significant disadvantage.

Like I said, I haven't been punished from this position as much as I could, but usually when this happens I do a retreating reverse SHL which I know is vulnerable to a dash attack. I have not had the chance to try a counter to the dash attack specifically because I have not been punished enough for my lasers, but I theorize that a SH dair or bair would counter the dash attack, and I theorize that a run > shield would counter that, or perhaps buffering a CC in the dash would be an option select to cover both a retreating laser and a SH aerieal.

I'm looking forward to the rest of the WGF videos from DR PP to see what other tactics he's been using b/c so far I've found a lot worth using myself.

Good stuff dude *thumbs up*

Ahhh I like how you come up with a lot of this on your own, cool. I would very much love to meet you and discuss Falco things with you at some point. Ideas...

I just watched grand finals of WGF and here are what I think are the two biggest strengths of PP's Falco right now.

Up tilt - I swear to god, I'm not just saying this because I like it but he gets a lot of free combos with it and at least a quarter of the time it could have been avoided but people are not used to the move. Ahh, that brings me back. The days when Falco's up tilt was broken and ***** everything. People challenge the up tilt shield pressure, not realizing how fast the move actually, or realizing its range and priority, and get hurt badly for it. It's an unconventional approach as well, people expect a shuffle and PP just lands and goes straight into the up tilt. Leads to a lot of shield pokes and works great. This is an example of PP outplaying people. He's developed tactics that people can't handle yet and pushed the metagame in his favor.

Tip #1 for beating PP, respect the up tilt.

The second strength: That times that PP DOESN'T attack.
I like this, his thinking is "why bother predicting my opponents defense to a shuffle and having to guess which shuffle variation I have to use when I know that, at the heart of this situation, the opponent will simply not challenge my approach. The person is so trained to look for an approach/aerial that I have time to land and position myself to start shield from a less technically demanding position"

That **** is genius. Not because it's a new concept but because of how often PP has proved that the tactic can be abused.

Hats off to you sir.

Hehe <3 Uptilt. 08 PP **** lol.

I'm glad you like my work. =)

I'd do it with fox playing as gay as possible >_>

But the two things with planking puff are:

1)Nobody abuses it
2)If it truly IS broken then when people start abusing it, it'll get banned.

Either way, there's no reason to talk about planking puff until it starts getting used. Also, falco has serious trouble dealing with planking jigglypuff overall, though there are a few ways around it that I thought of... but its definitely extremely risky for falco overall.

The thing about uptilt shield pressure is... it does NOT work. PP conditions his opponents well, which is awesome. The thing is, people will eventually stop falling for it. Things like empty hop-->uptilt are really really good, but if falco dair -->uptilts on shield there is absolutely *no* reason to be getting hit by it seeing as the standard option is shine after dair. Either way it isn't safe to try to move OoS immediately following a falco's aerial, its not like uptilt covers a different option than shine does for the most part. Yes, respect falco's uptilt; don't be an idiot though. If falco ever uptilts your shield it is a free grab --> autocombo for most characters.

Edit: I still think uptilt is ridiculously broken/good though

Uptilt can beat some options shine can't simply because people can jump OOS pretty quickly on landing lag(you know, one of those holes a lot of people don't exploit) and it's a decent mixup to stop aerial OOS punishes.

 

[Rubyiris]

Hey PP I asked you for advice. >_>

 

[Mogwai]

LOL I'll admit, I understand Falco better than any other character and don't deny that at all, but to say that I'm whining about Falco when I've seen what can be exploited is simply not true. I love Falco, feel like I can solve any problem with him, and enjoy staying true to him when other Falcos didn't(like vs Puff lots of em went Fox). He's fun.

I take into account what a lot of other players say about tier lists and character abilities, why else would my top 3 on my tier list change so often(granted I've felt like putting Falco below puff on mine a week or so ago for factors I forgot so it's kinda the top 5)? Just because I don't readily accept what these people say doesn't mean I'm being pissy. It just means that I'm not easily swayed. I need to be thoroughly convinced that a character is a certain way, and most people don't take the time out to form a well-crafted argument that is many points long to convince me, and THEN to continue to do so when I respond to them. To do this properly is a lot of effort and time spent so that's why I kinda only get half-convinced on a lot of things, or have to go seek out the answers on my own.

Sorry I don't agree with you.

The discussions are just subjective, there's no way to convince anyone of anything with regards to how the top 5 should be ordered. No one can convince you that Falco's lasers and range are more important than Fox's speed. There's nowhere to go because there is nothing concrete by which to compare different aspects of different characters.

I'm sorry if I'm coming off as harsh on how top level players perceive the ordering of the top 5, but I just find it utterly ridiculous that everyone seems 100% convinced that they're not playing the best character in the game and the only explanation I can come up with is that people want to think that someone else out there has it easier than they. *shrugs* maybe we're all just Negative Nancies, and the fact that we know our mains better than other characters means that we fixate on their weaknesses moreso than other characters' weaknesses.

 

[Druggedfox]

@Sveet

You calculated it wrong. The number you are interested in is shield stun MINUS hitlag. That is to say, when you calculated it you added the shield stun they experience to the hitlag YOU experience. It was incorrect frame stuff, and uptilt is shieldgrabbable 100% of the time.

@PP

As far as I'm aware of, it is impossible, frame-wise, for many characters to jump OoS before falco's shine comes out. Falco's normally spaced (right at/after the peak of his SH) dair--> shine leaves something like a 5 frame window between the dair and the shine. Very few people buffer jump OoS from what I've seen, so they're no more likely to be frame perfect than you are. If you do a delayed dair there's even less time than that, and even fox probably can't jump OoS. I don't see how this is a "hole lots of people don't exploit" unless the frame data I've always read from mogwai etc's thread is wrong.

I find myself uptilting as well, but strictly speaking in terms of covering options, they should be waiting for the shine (or uptilt) before actually attempting to counterattack. That said, uptilt is extremely risky and assumes you are predicting an aerial OoS when the ideal way to beat falco's shield pressure is to:

1)wait
2)react

Because falco's shield pressure has holes in it, if falco doesn't either multishine/grab there's almost no way falco will actually land a hit unless the shielding player tries to start going for risky play or the falco player outplays them with timing mixups (which you can more or less react to) and immediate aerials (risky for falco). Yes, uptilt after a dair on shield is a decent mixup that requires you to either predict your opponent or hope they don't decide to react to what you do.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hey PP I asked you for advice. >_>

Err....there were a lot of posts on your subject but I thought it was about planking puff? I don't know a ton about that....

If that's not what you wanna know then my bad and if you tell me what you wanna know I'll respond.

The discussions are just subjective, there's no way to convince anyone of anything with regards to how the top 5 should be ordered. No one can convince you that Falco's lasers and range are more important than Fox's speed. There's nowhere to go because there is nothing concrete by which to compare different aspects of different characters.

I'm sorry if I'm coming off as harsh on how top level players perceive the ordering of the top 5, but I just find it utterly ridiculous that everyone seems 100% convinced that they're not playing the best character in the game and the only explanation I can come up with is that people want to think that someone else out there has it easier than they. *shrugs* maybe we're all just Negative Nancies, and the fact that we know our mains better than other characters means that we fixate on their weaknesses moreso than other characters' weaknesses.

I already said I could be convinced but it'd be a huge chore probably.

I don't think other people have it easier than me. I don't belittle others with my tier list, I keep my opinion of players separate from tiers. Falco is by no means bad to the point of not being able to overcome any obstacle set before him, that's not what I mean with my tier list at all. The top 5 characters **** and can all win a tournament, but if I think Falco is worse than other characters despite me winning with him, then why is that so bad really? I don't deny that I understand Falco better than other characters, but I also have put quite a bit of time into Fox, Marth, and Falcon as well, so I feel like I can make fair enough statements for those characters at the least(Sheik is hard for me to understand so I'll give you that one).

I don't know, I guess having those secondaries is different than using them in tournament and it just makes me have a less developed understanding of them for it. Either way, I guess I'm proving your point here but that's not how I feel about it. I like that the top players have differing opinions though, even if that may be heavily influenced by character choice and whatnot.