PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Palpi]

By hitting him.

I just came to this response.

 

[Bamesy]

TOPIC FOR ME

Backstory first:
I just picked up Flaco in January. I've been doing this thing where I main a different character every month (since July)
I used to just randomize between a dozen characters and used them all in tourney etc. So last time I used him was back in May 2010.
BC is a Flacoland (BO10/Sion/Daltsy/every noob uses him, so I really understand how to play against him.
I've always had a VERY weird style. I don't watched vids and live minimum 6 hours from PR type players. (just found out who you were [PP] from those vids you showed me in the 'best players thread' leading up to Rom3, and then saw you play Sion and KK which was fun :D)
So yeah...inexperienced and out of the loop but always keeping up somehow

My thing:
My ground game is good. I've always been known for a tilt spammer and grab spammer with every character. I've managed to incorperate lasers into my game well. Really, using lasers can be learned through practicality and smarts so it was quick. I have an effective approach game and always have, the 'actual' good Falco's around here have always said things like "It's like James is just kind of a reminder that things don't have to be so complicated" or "That's some of the strangest stuff I've seen but it's creatively effective" almost word for word.

My problem:
I am COMPLETELY missing any form of 'normal' Falco playstyle or shield pressure.
After understanding the match up from the other side, I've grown to the point where I'll usually 'pretend' to shoot lasers to have people shield (to proceed to punish with OOS options/PS/WD oos) and just waveland>grab/tilt etc)
When I dair/nair/anything>shine on their shield, I tend to full jump/shinegrab. NEVER double shining/shine>aerialing fading away/anything like that. I've always found that to be more of a "if they screw up it works" rather than a "if I do this it'll work" thing as I get around that when a Falco does that to me.

So I'm just wondering...

WHEN is a good time to Aerial>Shine>Aerial>Shine>WD>Shine>etc
the way 'normalish' Falcos do? It's missing from my game, and I know it's not something that'll take EXTREME practice to get used to technically, but I'm not sure when to bother since shinegrab/shine>jumpshine>waveland on platform above/wavedash away jab/tilt/laser/dd/anything seems to much safer+rewarding.

Things have been going well, and excelling VERY fast, but this doesn't seem to be something I even ATTEMPT let alone bother trying, and I've been getting comments like "your Falco is wacky, your pressure is a mindgame" and "your combos are so epicly odd and imbalanced and wtf"
So what IS normal? Better yet...
When do you BE normal?

PP, I've been told I play Falco a lot like you (mostly because I kind of play every character and it translated to Falco/and that's part of why I wanted to know who you were when you replied with those videos originally)
So since I'm maining Falco this month...
How/When/Why do you ever do that?

 

[Dr Peepee]

@fernandez: That question is kinda too broad dawg. I mean if he's just FH'ing then yeah hit him lol. Gotta tell us more about what's happening.

TOPIC FOR ME

Backstory first:
I just picked up Flaco in January. I've been doing this thing where I main a different character every month (since July)
I used to just randomize between a dozen characters and used them all in tourney etc. So last time I used him was back in May 2010.
BC is a Flacoland (BO10/Sion/Daltsy/every noob uses him, so I really understand how to play against him.
I've always had a VERY weird style. I don't watched vids and live minimum 6 hours from PR type players. (just found out who you were [PP] from those vids you showed me in the 'best players thread' leading up to Rom3, and then saw you play Sion and KK which was fun :D)
So yeah...inexperienced and out of the loop but always keeping up somehow

My thing:
My ground game is good. I've always been known for a tilt spammer and grab spammer with every character. I've managed to incorperate lasers into my game well. Really, using lasers can be learned through practicality and smarts so it was quick. I have an effective approach game and always have, the 'actual' good Falco's around here have always said things like "It's like James is just kind of a reminder that things don't have to be so complicated" or "That's some of the strangest stuff I've seen but it's creatively effective" almost word for word.

My problem:
I am COMPLETELY missing any form of 'normal' Falco playstyle or shield pressure.
After understanding the match up from the other side, I've grown to the point where I'll usually 'pretend' to shoot lasers to have people shield (to proceed to punish with OOS options/PS/WD oos) and just waveland>grab/tilt etc)
When I dair/nair/anything>shine on their shield, I tend to full jump/shinegrab. NEVER double shining/shine>aerialing fading away/anything like that. I've always found that to be more of a "if they screw up it works" rather than a "if I do this it'll work" thing as I get around that when a Falco does that to me.

So I'm just wondering...

WHEN is a good time to Aerial>Shine>Aerial>Shine>WD>Shine>etc
the way 'normalish' Falcos do? It's missing from my game, and I know it's not something that'll take EXTREME practice to get used to technically, but I'm not sure when to bother since shinegrab/shine>jumpshine>waveland on platform above/wavedash away jab/tilt/laser/dd/anything seems to much safer+rewarding.

Things have been going well, and excelling VERY fast, but this doesn't seem to be something I even ATTEMPT let alone bother trying, and I've been getting comments like "your Falco is wacky, your pressure is a mindgame" and "your combos are so epicly odd and imbalanced and wtf"
So what IS normal? Better yet...
When do you BE normal?

PP, I've been told I play Falco a lot like you (mostly because I kind of play every character and it translated to Falco/and that's part of why I wanted to know who you were when you replied with those videos originally)
So since I'm maining Falco this month...
How/When/Why do you ever do that?

If you don't do things "normally" if you play on others' expectations well, and you make it work and win, then WHY do you need to be "normal?" If what you think makes sense works and you feel like it's better and you do well because of it, then that's it. There is no reason to do things in a staple way for the sake of that unless those are better options(which isn't entirely true because people expect them and can DI/counter accordingly).

Being creative and effective is something good for you to have. You should feel lucky because you'll be THAT much harder to read when you play then.

 

[Bamesy]

If you don't do things "normally" if you play on others' expectations well, and you make it work and win, then WHY do you need to be "normal?" If what you think makes sense works and you feel like it's better and you do well because of it, then that's it. There is no reason to do things in a staple way for the sake of that unless those are better options(which isn't entirely true because people expect them and can DI/counter accordingly).

Being creative and effective is something good for you to have. You should feel lucky because you'll be THAT much harder to read when you play then.

It's not so much 'playing' normally, but actually doing things at certain times that are (as you said) staple. I simply don't know when to do 'staple' things, but I think I answered my own question when thinking about it. In that, the only reason to aerial after a shine/etc would be to predict them 'trying' to counter and anticipating that with a 'pre-counter' of sorts. OR, shieldpoking looks good.

As for the last part...
You have no idea how 'Anti-anything-to-do-with-systematic-play' I am. LOLOLOL
Also, I don't think I've ever been out of my region without getting at LEAST 10 comments about how strange I play. I like how it's starting to work better than the 'staple' way too.

Very well then PP, I won't bother learning what 'normal' is... and be an outcast my whole life.
lol jkz :D

 

[forward]

Bamesy do you have videos? You remind of an AZ player who gets the exact same comments about his play style.

 

[ChivalRuse]

@ Forward

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fin9DswRY2A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZWKDrK6RMA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BpEOG_2KtQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqZJ4_s_2Go

 

[Bamesy]

forward, doesn't everyone in AZ play 'low tiers' and that alone gets those comments? hahah
Much of me playing Pika/Luigi/Mario probably had to do with my style as well. Doubles was always my strength too, so it does something to people I guess.
:/

There are very very few vids of me... I'll try digging them up.
I'm not sure they'd be of any use or even interesting, but I'll search anyway.

OH SWEET
ty Chival lol

Imma watch those! Don't even think I've seen them XD


Edit: awwww no commentary? That was the best part!

And exactly as I thought, not of much use. Pretty gross. :/

That was my first smash in 6 months, so I was actually really happy with how well I did coming back to this game.
There's more recent stuff I'm pretty sure...



Here's my Luigi in doubles at ROM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-E98rKt37o


That doesn't really show anything though. I've literally played more in the last month than I have the previous 8 combined.
And I'm loving the results!



LOL Chival
About your comment on the first vid, I'm actually extremely aggressive, my 'conservativeness' from that comes from it being my FIRST MELEE in HALF A YEAR and I hadn't played anything but Doc and Jiggs in even longer.

I'm probably too aggro now. XD

 

[Bamesy]

wooow I actually did way too good under those circumstances...
I like. XD
I like how far I've come since then even more! <3

 

[ChivalRuse]

How far are you from Norcal, Bamesy? Have you ever been to Cali tournaments?

 

[ViciousEnd]

@Bamsey, the normal aerial shine I feel has a more natural feel for a lot of players. it's quick, precise, and just as rewarding. That being said it's a fairly reliable way to start-up into shine, which is something you may have a tad more difficulty starting up into.

 

[Bamesy]

Nice, I like watching myself play, even if it is horrible or old. XD
Thanks Chival, good to see! <3

Here's an ancient one, it's the only vid of me I saw before today haha
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYSGhWpZQiw#t=5m58s
My first ever tourney! <3

I went to Genesis, but got DQ'd from everything. My singles pool was called right when WC vs EC Mango vs M2K match started, no way I was missing that. It was my first OOS tourney and I figured I didn't drive 26 hours to play a bunch of randoms when I could watch the best in the world in the moment. lol
Then missed doubles and crews by doing Costco runs for people...
Was awesome.

I can't make it to Genesis 2, if it was the weekend AFTER it, then I could. Other than that, I can't leave my town until April due to music stuff, so can't even get to local tourneys (still 6 hours away but that's local for me) until spring.

I'll be playing smash occasionally though, which is different. The 'local locals' are stepping up their game and there's actually people to play around here for the first time since I picked up the game. WOOPWOOP!

TY for thoughts Vicious.

Edit: Is Falco's pivot 'mechanically' easier to do than most others?
I've always been a pivot ftilt spammer with almost every character, but with Falco it seems fluent. Maybe I've just grown accustomed to it and Falco is at the peak of me getting technically sound at it. :/

Also, I like how I main a different character every month, so all the vids of me are a different character. That's awesome! hahaha


Edit: HAHAHAH I can't get over how awesome those vids are!
I remember giving the links to people before but I never watched them myself, since I actually played the matches so it didn't matter.
Now that I get to look back on it, it's so cool to see. So much smoother, in control and generally better. So awesome. hahhaha

 

[tarheeljks]

re: fullhopping foxes, they largely fh nair (over lasers) against falco so i assume he's asking how to deal w/that. i'm pretty bad against fox myself , but feel that it's a classic "don't jump into the ****" spot. i've had moderate success baiting them into poorly spaced fh nair/shines and/or cc-ing

 

[Bamesy]

Foxes FH Nairing overheard?

Hardest : Land and sheild the late Nair then Shine OOS (pretty sure late Nair gives you the chance)
Hard : Don't shoot the laser and WL back/forward and punish him accordingly
Medium : Usmash/utilt him for a trade and combo him from it yay
Easier : Don't laser close enough that you won't have time to block/roll/anything to avoid getting hit by it.
Easiest : Full Jump Dair LOL

I'd probably try the usmash/utilt first, if that doesn't work/hurts too much/too difficult, then go for the anticipation of it and get out of the way if you can somehow (roll or wavedash etc) and if that doesn't work, shine OOS at it, if that doesn't work, don't laser unless he's already in the air/in his shield far away/recovering.

Those are my thoughts. (warning, I'm new to blue birds)

PS: Just realized none of my vids are Falco, some good that will do anybody. *sarcasm*

 

[Fernandez]

re: fullhopping foxes, they largely fh nair (over lasers) against falco so i assume he's asking how to deal w/that. i'm pretty bad against fox myself , but feel that it's a classic "don't jump into the ****" spot. i've had moderate success baiting them into poorly spaced fh nair/shines and/or cc-ing

yea I always get ***** by fox jumping oos or just a fox that full jumps alot, just jumping over my aproach(sh nair for example) and then ****** me with dair shine upsmash 0-death bs =(

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYGBeK3KehI <-first few seconds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cc_E5Uw9lJk&feature=related <- first like 10 seconds, match start at 0:30

it happens more in these matches so if you feel like it watch the entire match
seriously all I do now is roll away cuz nothing seems to work(except ccing and shine oos if the fox messes up but cant rely on that =(

 

[JPOBS]

falco's uptilt is the best move in the game.

fox's that like to full jump a lot are silly. Oce they full hop they've commited themselves to that movement. uptilt will destroy them.

if they are nairing, CC shine is good. sheild->shine oos

if they dair, uptilt, or space a bair, or dash dance, theres tons of things to do.

 

[Rubyiris]

falco's uptilt is the best move in the game.

fox's that like to full jump a lot are silly. Oce they full hop they've commited themselves to that movement. uptilt will destroy them.

if they are nairing, CC shine is good. sheild->shine oos

if they dair, uptilt, or space a bair, or dash dance, theres tons of things to do.

cc shine will miss if fox spaces correctly.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

then cc dtilt?

 

[Rubyiris]

then why even suggest cc shine in the first place? :|

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

cause cc shine is god tier

 

[KAOSTAR]

cc shine will miss if fox spaces correctly.

Most foxes in approach mode will over shoot(aim where u gonna be not where u at) those nairs in case you try to move away or something. If you shield they can also land behind you.

If they are just hitting with the tips of their nairs then it should be easy to counter but also their own shine wont hit.

 

[JPOBS]

then why even suggest cc shine in the first place? :|

Because whats the point in discussing anything at all if you're going to put the stipulation on it "it wont work if they do space it"

we might as well shut smashboards down and play a new game if thats what its come to. also:

cause cc shine is god tier

this^

 

[forward]

Well, the low tier players in AZ don't get those comments. People say their low tiers are impressive, not weird.

This is AZ's "weird-style" player, Jetfour. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwwHpIjPmFI

Imo though it's not that weird and I haven't really seen a weird playstyle in a long time but that's probably because I've been playing this game since the stone age.

 

[tarheeljks]

yea I always get ***** by fox jumping oos or just a fox that full jumps alot, just jumping over my aproach(sh nair for example) and then ****** me with dair shine upsmash 0-death bs =(

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYGBeK3KehI <-first few seconds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cc_E5Uw9lJk&feature=related <- first like 10 seconds, match start at 0:30

it happens more in these matches so if you feel like it watch the entire match
seriously all I do now is roll away cuz nothing seems to work(except ccing and shine oos if the fox messes up but cant rely on that =(

i don't think there's anything wrong w/not challenging it so rolling isn't a big deal. i saw you do other stuff too--

here you wavedashed back


here you ran away. both seem legit to me. if you're feeling like a pimp and aren't directly under the jump you could try bair or dair. i haven't had much success w/that, but i've seen it done

noticed you dair-->dtilt a lot. why do you prefer it to shine or utilt? and i swear i've seen people illusion to the edge higher than that, but still get owned by battlefield . is it different in pal?


regarding uptilt-- seems like it could be a bit difficult to land consistently although i guess someone could have uptilted a lot of the time they recognized the need to run/wd/roll from under fox

 

[Bamesy]

Well, the low tier players in AZ don't get those comments. People say their low tiers are impressive, not weird.

This is AZ's "weird-style" player, Jetfour. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwwHpIjPmFI

Imo though it's not that weird and I haven't really seen a weird playstyle in a long time but that's probably because I've been playing this game since the stone age.

I don't really find my play style 'weird' either, as that's how I've always played. I'm sure it's only 'rare' and that's what makes it so 'weird' in this area, as nobody has really used it effectively in the region (maybe just for a long time)

I don't really see a weirdness to Jet in those vids, or anything really creatively effective or the likes, but I'm sure he's got something people think is interesting about his style if he's getting those comments. Maybe one day he'll use it.

A lot of the weirdness probably comes from my use of pivot tilts and things over spacing aerials and lack of cookie cutter combos in place of 'weak' or 'reverse' hits on everything.

This game is flexible.

I'll let you know whenever I get a vid of me somewhere, if you like. One that isn't my first time playing in half a year, so it won't just be full hopping around the stage without control...would probably be at least more entertaining. lol

regarding uptilt-- seems like it could be a bit difficult to land consistently although i guess someone could have uptilted a lot of the time they recognized the need to run/wd/roll from under fox

Consistency comes from practice...might as well try. I combos into everything and it's HUGE. Shining OOS would be tough to do consistently off a FH Nairing Fox too, but it has its situations.
Everything can be done in this game. It's too flexible.

 

[Brookman]

I beat zoso's powershield cheating 2-0 with falco.

*high fives all around*

 

[#HBC | Mac]

^5

make that ****er stop breaking the game

 

[Lib3r4t3]

Bamesy's playstyle is weird. He nearly four stocked me yesterday when he was serious with falco after I gayed him out of a game. No lasers, minimal shine combos, just basic basic basic falco stuff, not even super fast either, but HUUUGE presence. I gayed him out of fourstocking me though.

And then his other characters. wtf jiggly puff. I hate you bamesy. <3

 

[FoxLisk]

question:

how do you not get double-eliminated by sheik?

plzkthx

 

[ChivalRuse]

Fight less Plank.

 

[FoxLisk]

haha nah, i lost to theo and rayku. i think i did pretty well, i just am severely lacking in sheik practice so i never know how to DI and ****.

 

[ChivalRuse]

My bad. I just assumed.

 

[Dr Peepee]

falco's uptilt is the best move in the game.

fox's that like to full jump a lot are silly. Oce they full hop they've commited themselves to that movement. uptilt will destroy them.

if they are nairing, CC shine is good. sheild->shine oos

if they dair, uptilt, or space a bair, or dash dance, theres tons of things to do.

Imo Uptilt doesn't **** that. Foxes that use that FH correctly attack you with them when you're moving around trying to find a way inside. In that case you have to quickly react and CC or just shield/get out of the way. I mean, maybe the uptilt works, but I trade with things like Nair a lot when I use Uptilt so I avoid it. Maybe I'm crazy or misremember something though.

I beat FH Nair if I get away from it with lasers to punish them as they land(to things like Nair or shine depending on how close I am).

then cc dtilt?

Does that even work on Nair?

I beat zoso's powershield cheating 2-0 with falco.

*high fives all around*

Lmao zoso gets talked about so much by you guys. XD That guy's pretty good.

Good stuff man. =)

question:

how do you not get double-eliminated by sheik?

plzkthx

Be really gay against Sheik. I re-learned that playing Tope wtf Sheik arg.


PS: Theo *****. =)

 

[KirbyKaze]

Is it even possible to lose to Plank with a space animal?

<3 Plank

 

[JPOBS]

Imo Uptilt doesn't **** that. Foxes that use that FH correctly attack you with them when you're moving around trying to find a way inside. In that case you have to quickly react and CC or just shield/get out of the way. I mean, maybe the uptilt works, but I trade with things like Nair a lot when I use Uptilt so I avoid it. Maybe I'm crazy or misremember something though.

I beat FH Nair if I get away from it with lasers to punish them as they land(to things like Nair or shine depending on how close I am).

true. its not a perfect system i guess.

i get it a lot by predicting when they are going to try to full hop over my lasers/off a platform/out of shield.

but this is vs foxes around my level. i can't comment on uber high level play.

 

[ZoSo]

I beat zoso's powershield cheating 2-0 with falco.

*high fives all around*

Wasn't trying. :D

 

[Brookman]

Me neither, that's why I went falco ;D

 

[Fernandez]

i don't think there's anything wrong w/not challenging it so rolling isn't a big deal. i saw you do other stuff too--

here you wavedashed back


here you ran away. both seem legit to me. if you're feeling like a pimp and aren't directly under the jump you could try bair or dair. i haven't had much success w/that, but i've seen it done

noticed you dair-->dtilt a lot. why do you prefer it to shine or utilt? and i swear i've seen people illusion to the edge higher than that, but still get owned by battlefield . is it different in pal?


regarding uptilt-- seems like it could be a bit difficult to land consistently although i guess someone could have uptilted a lot of the time they recognized the need to run/wd/roll from under fox

running away and wavedashing back only works if they do early nair or try hit with the tip of nair tho.

I use D tilt alot, i love that move lol, most of the time shine is better but I mostly use it cuz foxes sometimes DI the dair slightly away so if you shine after it misses, and it does like twice as much damage.

I'm pretty sure battlefield is just as dumb in PAL as in NTSC XD

 

[bolt.]

So this weekend I got to play cactuar in some friendlies at no johns and when I asked for advice he said something about learning to play falco without lasers before you play with them. So today when I played was playing I tried to use them a lot less and noticed I didn't do much worse. I took some mental notes and this is what I came up with.
- I was using lasers all the time even in situations were I could get a solid hit it if I stopped using them.
- Over time I developed a habit of always shooting lasers, and because of this I would just start shooting without even noticing.
- As soon as I stopped using lasers I approached with nair over dair. I don't know why this happened but I would imagine it was because I didn't have lasers to overwhelm my opponent before attacking and it made me feel safer to use nair.
- Platforms seemed really pointless outside of combos when I wasn't using lasers.
- My dash dance game got a lot better, and I will start using dd more.
- I felt really slow and gross. Lol.
- It was hard to play aggressive, but at the same time I felt like I had to.
So the point of me saying this was mainly to ask what you think about my without lasers experience. But I would also like to know if you have ever tried anything like this and what you got out of it if you did.

 

[Brookman]

you're from CT?? you went to no johns and I've never met you??

 

[Dr Peepee]

So this weekend I got to play cactuar in some friendlies at no johns and when I asked for advice he said something about learning to play falco without lasers before you play with them. So today when I played was playing I tried to use them a lot less and noticed I didn't do much worse. I took some mental notes and this is what I came up with.
- I was using lasers all the time even in situations were I could get a solid hit it if I stopped using them.
- Over time I developed a habit of always shooting lasers, and because of this I would just start shooting without even noticing.
- As soon as I stopped using lasers I approached with nair over dair. I don't know why this happened but I would imagine it was because I didn't have lasers to overwhelm my opponent before attacking and it made me feel safer to use nair.
- Platforms seemed really pointless outside of combos when I wasn't using lasers.
- My dash dance game got a lot better, and I will start using dd more.
- I felt really slow and gross. Lol.
- It was hard to play aggressive, but at the same time I felt like I had to.
So the point of me saying this was mainly to ask what you think about my without lasers experience. But I would also like to know if you have ever tried anything like this and what you got out of it if you did.

Ahhh such good training. It's a great thing to do and you can learn a ton from it and how effective the laser really is.

And if you felt like you "had to" play aggressive it's probably because you played a character with some sort of advantage over you and didn't want to feel overwhelmed. Just gotta be careful with that vs better players(without lasers I mean).

Those are all great things to learn though, especially the slow part. Falco is slow lol so any way you can find to speed him up is usually great.