PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[unknown522]

PP (or anybody):

how do I play the neutral game vs. Falco as Luigi?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J26udQlb6M0

I'm gonna be honest here and say that I didn't play very hard in this set. I only played just enough to win. lazy mofo.

Even if you can't beat out the laser, you could still SH -> take a laser -> Nair/Fair/Bair/Dair even

or

get close and take a laser to utilt/usmash/some other reaction

It's a way to indirectly beat the laser that allows you to cleanly approach more in the future if you want.

it can be bad sometimes as well. It's a high risk-high reward tactic.

I know that quebec does it a lot (they throw out a fast move when they take a laser), but if they falco doesn't run into the move, they're gonna get ****ed up.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Moves like Utilt are harder to punish, and you don't have to do a move right away. You could take a second laser before you do and then you can do it on the first one next time when the Falco thinks it's okay to approach and etc etc.

It's a strange funny cycle.

 

[unknown522]

^ yeah, that's true.

Also, that reminds me; After Raynex MM'd you at apex, he has been experimenting with trading fox's d-tilt with falco's laser. It seems to work well sometimes, but other times it fails horribly.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Depends on spacing I'd guess, but it's not bad. I can totally see it working if you know when to use it.

 

[cjugs]

I'm having a really hard time ending combos because i can't ever seem to hit the shine after i send them airborn with a shine is this something that is done on reaction or prediction? I'm also getting punished because when i try to lasser camp they almost always hit me it's hard to move around plats while i am lassering.

 

[ViciousEnd]

I'm having a really hard time ending combos because i can't ever seem to hit the shine after i send them airborn with a shine is this something that is done on reaction or prediction? I'm also getting punished because when i try to lasser camp they almost always hit me it's hard to move around plats while i am lassering.

Are you talking about like...shine to shine waveland combos? The beauty of Falco combos is for the most part, it's just reacting to the di, and your shine and dair have monster stun on them to give you ample time to choose an efficient follow up.

As for laser camping, it sounds like you are trying to camp them up close, and Falco doesn't do that. Essentially, figure out what range someone can punish you for lasering, as well as what range they can punish a laser with a powershield, and don't ever shoot lasers in that range unless they are in their shield. Outside that range, sure, just blast lasers, and if you can, be mindful of shooting the right height lasers in order to stuff whatever they are trying to do to get in on you.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I'm having a really hard time ending combos because i can't ever seem to hit the shine after i send them airborn with a shine is this something that is done on reaction or prediction? I'm also getting punished because when i try to lasser camp they almost always hit me it's hard to move around plats while i am lassering.

Ending combos as in high percent or are you having trouble getting them going?

Well you can either laser camp along the ground or study Chops and do lots of double jump double lasers with run off/Isai drop laser mixups.

 

[forward]

DRPP, I was wondering if you could break down the Falco ditto approaches, mix ups, and advantages/disadvantages. I know them from intuition but I've never tried to explain. When I thought about trying to explain it I started thinking that it would be difficult to do. There's so much going on and its so fast that you could write an essay on the match with the right 5 second clip.

If you can break down shield pressure and explain the what-beats-what of it I would really appreciate it.

 

[KAOSTAR]

while ur at it could you explain the entire falco meta in detail? pretty please ^_^



Actually tho, I was wondering how you go about acknowledging mistakes. Like Its one thing to be able to identify and correct mistakes when they are apparent blunders such as flubbed tech skill or u get shine oos cuz u did an early aerial. But how do you identify mistakes that are not so obvious?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Easiest way to acknowledge mistakes(the way I decided to do it long ago that still works lol)

When you get hit or when someone good gets hit, why do they get hit? If you can break this down really far then you get some really cool answers if you do it throughout a set, and the depth with which you do so increases over time so it's pretty cool.

In your own play, you learn why you get hit and why you couldn't follow up or get more initial hits by understanding the game better or just through experience over time, and there's a refining process that begins to occur as you fix small parts of each of these things that almost continually changes(if you're good and motivated anyway) as the metagame changes and you learn more about your style and your character.

It's kinda hard to explain it all but I think I got most of it. I'm not sure why I'm not thinking more clearly atm sorry.


@Forward: I'll answer that tomorrow if it's okay.

 

[clowsui]

Dr. Peepee, I just wanted to say that reading what you have to say about Melee is really interesting/inspiring

I play Brawl but I'm a huge fan/student of Melee (especially high level theory...same in Brawl too, high level in the sense that it's directly applicable to the game if you get good enough, not BS "theorysmash"). Reading your posts helps me improve my analysis and helps me understand how options work not only on a character v character basis but player v player/player v character basis.

Anyways, I'll go back to lurking now xD

 

[DJRome]

could you also talk about the yoshi falco matchup? im a big fan of your videos and im trying to learn for my first tournament of the year

thanks so much

 

[Dr Peepee]

SHUT UP DJ <333333333 I laughed

Clowsui, it's no trouble at all man. I'm really glad I could help. =)

 

[~Twitch~]

you're only taking it as a joke because you know you have no idea how that mu goes.

better hope you don't get Vman in tourney.

 

[stingers]

i remember when PP thought axe was free...lmao

 

[Dr Peepee]

Stongers and NC quit trollin lol you guys are gay XD

 

[Rubyiris]

@Umbreon:

I'd like to talk to you on aim at some point. I'm interested in discussing some of your views on smash, and I prefer AIM for more in-depth conversations than forums. Do you go invisible like PP does, or no?

LMK.

 

[stingers]

kevin what's your favorite type of dish soap and why?

 

[Dark Hart]

kevin what's your favorite type of dish soap and why?

I wanna know this too, Kevin

 

[KAOSTAR]

Thanks PP .

 

[Deleted member]

@Forward: I'll answer that tomorrow if it's okay.

is it presumptuous of me to want to dissect them with you? i'd really like to see your thinking process in action since you consider new ideas so thoroughly.

edit: i'm on aim as "away" a lot, as i prefer to focus on just 5-6 IMs at once. anyone can catch me whenever @ mycatgoesmow.

 

[Melomaniacal]

I'm having trouble getting past Marth's wall of fairs. I occasionally stop it by jumping over it and coming down with a dair, but it's not consistent enough. Any tips?

 

[Dr Peepee]

is it presumptuous of me to want to dissect them with you? i'd really like to see your thinking process in action since you consider new ideas so thoroughly.

edit: i'm on aim as "away" a lot, as i prefer to focus on just 5-6 IMs at once. anyone can catch me whenever @ mycatgoesmow.

Yeah that should be fine. I dunno when I'm posting and when I'm AIM'ing as I have to get this answered before Jesiah gets in today, but I'll try to make it work haha.

I'm having trouble getting past Marth's wall of fairs. I occasionally stop it by jumping over it and coming down with a dair, but it's not consistent enough. Any tips?

If Marth is SH Double Fair'ing, then it should be easy enough to punish his patterns. If he approaches with them, then move back and Dair over the Fair as he lands to hit him/start pressure or laser grab or just shoot him and scare him into doing something dumb lol. If he's retreating with double Fair or doing them in place I guess then you'll just have to shoot Marth. Really though, if you get hit with the rising Fair and CC it then you can punish with things like reverse uptilt or whatever so it should just be single Fairs you're worried about. Rising single Fairs are dealt with by CC'ing as well, and delayed Fairs, well you can hit Marth with like a Nair or laser Nair or something before that comes out or you could just bait it and punish with the Dair or laser grab or something as if it were the end of a double Fair like I mentioned before.

 

[Dr Peepee]

DRPP, I was wondering if you could break down the Falco ditto approaches, mix ups, and advantages/disadvantages. I know them from intuition but I've never tried to explain. When I thought about trying to explain it I started thinking that it would be difficult to do. There's so much going on and its so fast that you could write an essay on the match with the right 5 second clip.

If you can break down shield pressure and explain the what-beats-what of it I would really appreciate it.

I'm not done with all of this as I have more studying/thinking to do, but I'll offer what I can now.

Approaches- An approach in a Falco ditto is one of the most necessary and dreaded things I can think of in Melee, simply because of what can happen if you screw it up. Falco with his back turned in his shield takes a laser and Bairs. Falco in his shield retreating Dairs OOS to stuff Nair/occasionally even Dair approaches(yes I've seen it happen and I wtf'd) or just shine OOS's the approach attempt designed to cover both the jump OOS and the shield pressure option. You can get lasered as you try to approach or even WD OOS Fsmashed before you have time to react if you're using your presence/spacing as shield pressure if you're not careful. In my opinion, the Falco ditto has one of the hardest approach games simply because the other Falco will resist being controlled more than any other character since Falco sucks on defense and will therefore look to avoid it moreso than more opportunistic characters at all costs.

A lot of the same approaches you use in most matchups you can use in this one though. You just have to be very tricky with what you do. Lasering high to stop jumps/SHLs, Nair'ing to catch jumps or cross up or Dair'ing late to start shield pressure all of that stuff still has its place. The big issue is getting someone into a position where you can attack and know it won't be dodged/countered.



Laser mixups depend sort of on the stage and opponent but if you're losing/stalemating the SHL battle then you can go for a PS or a high laser to stop their SH before the laser comes out or take to a platform with double lasers and then Isai drop/run off lasers to regain composure. It's also a great chance to catch a breather since Falco has a Dair and Falco is also slow so he can't approach quickly to get around a Dair without making something like a Bair obvious.

I feel everything else in terms of mixup is almost standard except you have to be more careful as most Falcos don't enjoy being out of control long so you can bait reactions a little more or just try to pressure a shield only as much as you safely can at times.



Advantages in Falco dittos are pretty easy to see in the laser game at times because one is at least initially forced to shield and there a distinction is made as to who's controlling the game at the moment. At closer range the distinction isn't so big as both Falcos are slow so they have to be very tricky and creative with their movement/lasers/attacks/baits to get rewards. I'd say if you ever stood close to another Falco while he's shielding and you're not that it's an advantage. It's kind of like taming that instinct that tells the opponent to regain control since he is Falco. He's waiting for you to do something to him then, and that's the time when you could start playing off of his expectations. The converse disadvantage obviously is when this happens to you and you have to try and become refocused on the match and what sort of conditioning the opponent is trying to impose on you.



As I rewatched some of my matches vs Shiz at Apex and me vs Chops I felt like movement was big in this matchup. You have to dodge lasers while throwing your own out or you simply become target practice. Since most Falcos don't operate on a laser game that Shiz/Chops do though, this is largely irrelevant though what should happen in my opinion. If you play vs a Falco that has limited laser(ditto) understanding then you should realize that your platform laser game should be able to give you an edge as you get to choose when your lasers are out and control your opponent as they try to stop your platform game if they choose to.


I think double jumping defensively in Falco dittos gets you *****, but that's pretty much for any of his matchups these days I've learned so I guess it's staple knowledge.

Being on a platform seems to be okay in Falco dittos, and moving from the top platform to the ground is advantageous because Falco is slow so he can't handle the quick fall speed not to mention a sudden Dair/laser that should come with it.



Uhh, this is more or less what I think right now in response to your question but it became unorganized and more just tricks and stuff lol but I hope I was able to at least decently answer.


Discussion with Umbreon edits:

-Falco sucks at handling approaches directly above him, so abuse that.

-Falco's approaches are a weaker part of his game and so you have to be extra tricky and ride the momentum of your stage control into your approach so that it will help cover your weaker midgame role.


More may come later lmao.

 

[forward]

Good stuff PP. Something you didn't mention that I'd like to hear your thoughts on are Falco's counters from a disadvantageous position. The reason being that sometimes a Dair or shine OOS works well at a disadvantage and those can lead to huge follow ups, so that begs the question, if you can get such a reward for that hit, are you really at a disadvantage?

 

[Deleted member]

Good stuff PP. Something you didn't mention that I'd like to hear your thoughts on are Falco's counters from a disadvantageous position. The reason being that sometimes a Dair or shine OOS works well at a disadvantage and those can lead to huge follow ups, so that begs the question, if you can get such a reward for that hit, are you really at a disadvantage?

even I can answer that one. there are two fundamental types of advantages or disadvantages: certain or uncertain. You CAN be at a disadvantageous position and make a come back from it so long as the opponent fails to maintain that advantage. often, the player in control can choose to remain in control. this can come from any number of things, but it will always mean that the advantage is uncertain. so long as a certain advantage is established, those come backs simply cannot happen. The most obvious example I can think of is sheik's edge guarding. For most characters, coming back vs sheik just isn't going to happen.

shine oos for falco is such a good example too because it can take you from a disadvantaged position and reverse it very quickly.

 

[Brookman]

PP I am curious about what buttons you use for your inputs.

 

[Melomaniacal]

If Marth is SH Double Fair'ing, then it should be easy enough to punish his patterns. If he approaches with them, then move back and Dair over the Fair as he lands to hit him/start pressure or laser grab or just shoot him and scare him into doing something dumb lol. If he's retreating with double Fair or doing them in place I guess then you'll just have to shoot Marth. Really though, if you get hit with the rising Fair and CC it then you can punish with things like reverse uptilt or whatever so it should just be single Fairs you're worried about. Rising single Fairs are dealt with by CC'ing as well, and delayed Fairs, well you can hit Marth with like a Nair or laser Nair or something before that comes out or you could just bait it and punish with the Dair or laser grab or something as if it were the end of a double Fair like I mentioned before.

What about full hop double fair, like one rising (or at the peak of the jump) and one coming down? This is giving me the most trouble. On FD I can get around it a bit, but when he spaces it between platforms, I can't get around it. Takes up too much damn space.

Also, I'm convinced that u-throw -> dair only works if the lasers miss. Am I wrong? 100% of the time I've tried this, the Marth just DI's away and jumps or fairs me before I can dair him.

 

[Druggedfox]

The best way to beat fullhop fair OoS is BY FAR catch him doing it by run under and SH bair. With a bit of practice it begins getting easy to call, and you'll start loving it when marth players try it. You essentially want to SH forward after he fairs so you can catch him with your bair before he has time to fair again (not that it would matter because you're actually under him).

Upthrow aerial always works on marth in my experience, its just that with certain DIs you have to predict them rather than react. Idk specifically about upthrow-->dair.

I'm not PP, but w/e =D

 

[Dark Hart]

PP I am curious about what buttons you use for your inputs.

Dr. Peepee is at dinner right now, but I think I can answer you're question.

iirc, Kevin uses doesn't use the c-stick, and he uses X to jump

I have no idea how he doesn't use the c-stick though...

 

[Sage Osaka]

Haha a lot of great players don't use the c stick. But I will agree, from a very technical standpoint it does hinder you a tiny bit, and luckilly I guess that tiny but is small enough that the best players can still be the best without it

 

[Dr Peepee]

PP I am curious about what buttons you use for your inputs.

X to jump, A to use aerials =) Is there anything in specific you want me to talk about?

What about full hop double fair, like one rising (or at the peak of the jump) and one coming down? This is giving me the most trouble. On FD I can get around it a bit, but when he spaces it between platforms, I can't get around it. Takes up too much damn space.

Also, I'm convinced that u-throw -> dair only works if the lasers miss. Am I wrong? 100% of the time I've tried this, the Marth just DI's away and jumps or fairs me before I can dair him.

CC the rising Fair and maybe FH Nair punish? If that doesn't work then get under Marth and mayyyybe you can sneak a Nair or laser to Nair under him as he falls. Usually you can bait a double jump if you do this correctly and then go for stuff that'll then be guaranteed like Nair stuff. If he's using platforms then I mean you don't have to challenge it so much as shoot him if you want lol. If he's pressuring you with that then maybe you'll have to shield the Fairs and fall to the edge or FH around them, but that's kinda risky. Maybe WD OOS after the first Fair hits your shield but either way you should be able to move in between both Fairs so I suggest improving your reaction time or seeing Marth's Fair patterns(especially those involving drop through Fairs) and just know when one's coming and avoid/shield it. Maybe you could CC Dtilt if your percent is low enough because I got M2K with that a few times so that's an option for you as well.



And I liked Umbreon's response to Forward but I could explain it in my own way or go farther with it maybe if needed.

 

[Brookman]

nothing specific. I've just felt really slow going y > a > b so I switched to the control stick for short hops.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hey if you can do it man more power to you. I heard that's pretty quick anyway.

 

[KILLA.FOR.CASH.]

i think c-sticking will help alot with using marth or like with chars that need to aerial in one direction and fade back asap.

 

[Dr Peepee]

It's better for that but I can do the same maneuver about the same I suppose lol.

Everyone should learn C stick and not be like me though. XD

 

[KILLA.FOR.CASH.]

i find instant sh uairs with marth and any other char very hard to do without the c stick =X

 

[Brookman]

i find instant sh uairs with marth and any other char very hard to do without the c stick =X

it's easy, you just have to follow this simple procedure:

step 1. Press jump with y/x

step 2. During knee bend animation tilt the control stick up.

step 3. ????

step four profit.

 

[Fernandez]

How do I punish fox full jump

 

[Cactuar]

How do I punish fox full jump

By hitting him.