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Playing Ganondorf in Brawl+ and How to Continue Murdering People

Demacrez

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Well, this is coming from a guy who says he's the best Ganondorf player ever.

Though, I prefer Ganon+ compared to vGanon since he's just a ******* when it comes to the WizTruck!
 
D

Deleted member

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I wouldnt double post.

And, I don't believe its an instant KO because you can DI towards the stage and tech. Or also, you may be able to meteor cancel. There was a post explaining this in the GSH2 discussion thread somewhere.
 

IC3R

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GSH2 Ganon+.

Mother. ****ing. BEAST.

I have some insane matches against my brother's Samus! Combos out the wazoo!! Dx
 

Demacrez

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I wouldnt double post.

And, I don't believe its an instant KO because you can DI towards the stage and tech. Or also, you may be able to meteor cancel. There was a post explaining this in the GSH2 discussion thread somewhere.
I believe it was double post worthy.

And, I don't see how you could tech it. Maybe by luck but the Meteor Cancel is more believable than the tech it since it happens fast.
 
D

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Guest
I believe it was double post worthy.

And, I don't see how you could tech it. Maybe by luck but the Meteor Cancel is more believable than the tech it since it happens fast.
Depends on the stage. Teching it on Skyworld+ or Battlefield would probably be difficult if not impossible. However, a wall like Warioware/Yoshi's Island would probably lend a hand.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=9110004#post9110004

Cape explains it well.
 

SmashBrosForce

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GSH2 Ganon+.

Mother. ****ing. BEAST.

I have some insane matches against my brother's Samus! Combos out the wazoo!! Dx
That's it.

Can't wait to get my GSH2... >_>

Man, I have a friend who plays Samus and what's the most effective combo against her ?
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Samus is floaty to the point where comboing her in the air is difficult. If she bomb stalls/bounces wait for her vulnerability and exploit.

Her recovery, though versatile can be easy to punish and read at times. Knock her offstage w/ fair or uair and edgeguard well.

Pick a stage where like Battlefield, Warioware, or Brinstar for your CP so you dont have to worry about chasing your combos as much by early kills and/or small stage.
 

Kaotical

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Man, I have a friend who plays Samus and what's the most effective combo against her ?
Ganon loves floaties. What I would do is try and combo Samus to at least 75% (probably 4 hits) and then try and hit her with a Wiz-kick. Samus probably will live it if the player knows how to DI, but she'll be far enough off the stage that you could plan out an effective edge-guard.

Now hitting Samus w/ a combo, I think, would be a pain in the *** cuz if it's a good Samus player they won't be coming inside your range often (watch out for Z-air). When the chance shows up, I'd try and combo thunderhop (d-air) -> f-air or u-air. Hit Samus with small combo's, tech-chase, and keep the pressure on her. That's just my opinion though.
 

IC3R

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I have a ton of videos of my Ganon vs. my bro's Samus.
Once I get a hold of my Wii again, I'll record with the utterly crappy quality of my phone and upload it or something...

The only thing is, he's not a typical Samus, but they are still intense fights.


EDIT:: Okay, got the Wii. Now I can't find my **** SD card!!!! :mad:
 

Mr.Pickle

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So how does everyone feel about 6.0 ganon, personally I think he is pretty close if not already to being perfect. It seems that uthrow is a bit better for combos and I think they might have put a little bit more landing lag on fair but other than that I don't notice anything different about him.
 

Veril

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Ganon's throws all got worked on. The d-throw was Cape's baby. I spent a lot of time figuring out how to fix the b/u throws (as you have probably all seen with throws in general). His standing grab-box was also enlarged to match the animation.

Fair has 15 frames of lag. I've got all the ALR for Ganon in my data thread. Gotta get all his new throw stats...


Ganon is really solidly... ok. He's got insane combos, insane KO potential, lots of options for edgeguarding, etc. I'm happy with where ganon is at now. I think its safe to say Ganon is a gold character.
 

leafgreen386

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Yeah. Ganon is in a great place right now imo. All of his throws serve a purpose, too, which is nice. I think the only thing I could complain about is the dthrow still doing vbrawl damage (something like 9% would be just right imo), but other than that, he's perfect.
 

VietGeek

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yes, even in tough economic times like these, ganon still has sustainable income:

 

Veril

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For the transportation of **** in bulk...

I added some new ganon info to my more recent data thread http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=260740

His throws are perfect. He's got a throw that can kill at high % (b-throw). A throw that most people won't be able to DI on reaction that initiates tech chases, sets up edgeguards and does an OBSCENE amount of damage (f-throw). Reliable combos (up-throw), and an amazing tech chase setup (d-throw). More details there obviously.
 

goodoldganon

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I'm going to work on reupdating and bringing this thread up to speed over the weekend. Post any information you can think would be relevant but some mains points I want to touch are:

-THROWS
-Fix up the murder choke discrepancies (what follows and what doesn't)
-Updating misc strats

Sorry for being so out of touch with this thread. I promise to bring this guide back to it's former glory when I first made it and it was the only good guide back here. Once again, I plan to be done updating by the end of the weekend.

EDIT: I updated a little tonight. Throws will come tomorrow or friday. Post any combos, approach tactics, defensive tactics, or other useful Dorf info over the next few days and I'll try and build the strats section up.
 

the king of murder

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Ganon is great in brawl+. But I feel like he needs a lot more priority. Even though he has much better approach options then in vbrawl he is still needs the priority for not being outpriorized so easily. Well, thats my opinion anyway.
 

the king of murder

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Press down B more often. Seriously, it is ridiculous.
Doesnt work that much for me. But of course it is a good spiker and is a very useful move now (I love the Wiztruck). But he still needs the priority becuase the fact that you get outpriorized most of the time is so frustrating. Combine this and that Ganon gets combod very easily makes him an easy target for the others. He is still weak to pressure and other stuff. I think a very good priority moveset can weaken those weaknesses and and give Ganon a better chance for actually landing a hit.
 

Bandit

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So, you wanna play?
Uair, Dair, dthrow are all great along with the incredible power he brings. Priority is not an issue in most cases. What characters are you struggling against?
 

the king of murder

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Uair, Dair, dthrow are all great along with the incredible power he brings. Priority is not an issue in most cases. What characters are you struggling against?
I have problems against Marth, (what a suprise) Meta Knight and in some cases Snake and CF. The two latters are not THAT much of a problem since Snake cant force Ganon into troubling situations like in vbrawl but he is still annoying. Marth beats my down B in the air and his attacks are a little frustrating. Meta Knight combos me hard. Sometimes the projectiles are annoying too so I think he should get a better priority and therefor a better chance of apporach. Maybe I am not playing fast enough.
 

BG3

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WTF!? That Wizkick hitbox is just messed up.
 

KOkingpin

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WTF!? That Wizkick hitbox is just messed up.
Its Thundah Thighs Bebe. lol.

@TKOM - Against Snake just anticipate a DACUS or a roll and Murder Choke him. Then Proceed to ****. MK is a little more tricky. He has very little lag on anything and very little cool down. Plus now Nado is a pain again. Try spacing Fair vs him and hitting the shield with it. Keeping MK scared is about the only thing I can think of to fight him. Remember the if they somehow get up to 140 on percentage BThrow kills. I actually have more trouble with the CF match up than that of the Snake match up. OH and vs Marth. Marth does not have the Defense he once had. Ganon's Fair will trade with Marth's. I dont think I would trade with Ganon's fair too often. Just get underneath Marth and Wreck him with UAirs. and Finish with a FAir off of the stage. Its almost a guaranteed death to marth. Reverse UAir also wrecks marths terrible recovery.
 

goodoldganon

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Falcon puts more pressure on Dorf then Snake so ya, Falcon is a tougher matchup. On Meta Knight I've found matches to go wildly one way or the other. It's cool killing MK at 80% and living to 170% from out right KOs but if you put yourself in a situation to get gimped it's bye bye stock.
 

lord karn

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I'd imagine retreating fairs would be really good against mk. Seems like it would beat most of his approaches except dash attack. Don't have much exp in this matchup, though.

I have found snake to be really easy with ganon. You can totally outspace him with fairs and shut him down once you get near him. He's also really easy to edgeguard and combo once you hit him. Just watch out for dacus and shield/jab/murder choke it. Uair is a really good frame trap when he's falling down, so he should be easy to juggle.

CF is one of ganon's harder matchups, imo. You can't really create any openings against a dd camping cf. Pivot jabs trade with nairs and are really useful. I think pivot door kicker works, too, but I'm not exactly sure. The only thing that is good about this matchup is he's really easy to edgeguard. If he's far away just reverse uair, if he's kind of close get on the edge and either use invincibility to edgehog the forward b or do an uair if he doesn't go for it. If he goes really low you can just ledgehop stomp. Fair doesn't work very well against cf because he can't bait it with his dd pretty easily. You'll want to use a lot of bairs.
 

ZeonStar

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Ganon is a character that is a great counterpick against characters that have predictable recoveries, But obviously takes hits pretty hard because of how tall/big he is, and because of how bad his recovery can be.

For a while, ive been playing with approaching nair against certain matchups, and ive gotten some interesting results, ill have to do some more testing though.
 
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I've been playing a lot of MK lately, and the matchup seems to go even in my experience. Once Ganon gets to about 60%, MK has a hard time setting up kills and high damage combos.

The only way MK can straight kill with good DI at a reasonable percent is a clean fsmash or dair/nair/UpB offstage. So as long as you can avoid being put too far offstage, Ganon will live for quite a while.

On the completely opposite end of the spectrum, Ganon can kill MK at around 80% with one of his more powerful kill moves, and we all know how fast Ganon can tack on damage. The issue is catching MK with a combo starter without getting out prioritized and combo'd yourself. MK's low percent strings are nasty. >_>
 

Mecakoto

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I'm bored, so I think I'll add my take on the Meta Knight match up analysis. Keep in mind that this is my first real attempt at this sort of thing and I consider myself a bit of a Smash Noob, but hey. You learn by doing. =D




In General:

I usually just play it safe and play reactively. Meta should approach first. If they refuse, or if they have a stock lead, standing F-Air while just out of range of them will cause them to respond. Keep note of it. After a while, do an empty hop towards them and Grab/Shield/F-Smash depending on what they do. Keep in mind that they'll catch on really quickly. Be sure to mix it up.

Never be above Meta unless he just threw you. The stomp doesn't have the best Start Up Time in the world and the U-Air will destroy you. Depending on the percent and DI, the Shuttle Loop will kill you.

Quick Summary: Ganon is Bison. Aggression is rewarded, but not in this match-up.

Now, on to situations:

General:

*Put any Move here* -> Jab does wonders. Lesser-So against Meta, but it still limits Meta in some regards and it covers you a bit regardless. If Meta is on the war path towards you and you flub a F-Air, this could save you some percent.

Watch where Meta is if he is off and below the stage. If he's out of Shuttle Loop recovery range, he's going to drill. A well-timed Stomp beats the drill. Other then that, there is no good reason to be off the Stage with Meta unless what you're doing is 100% guaranteed to succeed or you are not putting yourself in danger.

All Murder Chokes/D-Throws lead to more Murder Chokes/D-Throws unless I miss or I have a good reason.

Specific:

Standing or retreating F-Air if they come from the air, with a Dash Attack/Wizard Kick/Murder Choke if I miss or just run to a safe spot on the stage if I hit. If they are coming in too high for a F-Air to be viable, a U-Air will do the job.

Retreating F-Air for Tornado, or full hopping a D-Air if they make a mistake. If I don't have time for that, I shield and wait it out. If I'm within range, I punish it with a Murder Choke.

If they attempt a Dash Attack/Grab, D-Air -> anything you want. If they miss the spacing on the Dash attack, elbow them in the face.

For D-Air (that hits them while they're on the ground) below 40%:
1) Go for a follow up D-Air on a standing tech, Murder Choke/Grab on a tech towards Ganon, or a F-Air/Wizard Kick/Dash Attack/Grab on a Tech Away from Ganon. If they fail to tech, do whatever you usually do when you chase failed techs.

2) If you're up a stock and within range, or you're going to die soon anyway, Murder Choke them from the air off stage. Oh, and smile. Anyone watching will be.

For D-Air above 60%:
Go for another D-Air if you want. You might not be able to get down to them in time to follow up with some things, but, if they miss the tech...

What I like to do is F-Air them or U-Air them if F-Air will not reach. They will be at about 80% and will die if they don't DI properly from the F-Air. On Stages with smaller side borders, however, it might not matter, depending on if it's U-Air, F-Air, and where they are hit according to the stage.

DI Meta's Down-Throw away and Down if at low-mid percents. If you don't, you're going to get hit with an U-Air combo. At high damage, I DI it towards and up. I usually get out of hit stun before they can hit me with anything. Watch what they do and act accordingly.

I usually use Ganon's Jab as a GTFO me move, or as a mix-up. It does wonders in stopping some of Meta's moves, but, most of the time, Ganon has better options.

F-Smash/D-Smash (timed really well)/Murder Choke/Empty Jump -> Ganon's Fast-start-up Moves to punish Side Steps.

F-Smash/Murder Choke/Up-Smash/Down-Smash/Grab if they like to roll or if you see one coming. Most likely done to get behind you, but we all know what happens to people that mindlessly roll towards someone...

F-Tilt/D-Tilt/Jab as a mix-up if they are approaching.

Murder Choke -> F-Tilt/Up-Smash at high percents for Ko. Follow the tech. If there isn't one, just use it. At lower percents, you can get away with Choke -> Jab -> follow -> Choke/Grab/Wizard Kick.

At lower percents, (10-25%) Wizard Kick -> Jumping F-Air/D-Air near the edge of the stage might lead to a low-Percent Ko. Follow how they move and be careful if it is retreating. I've gotten stuck on many Stages' lips with a Retreating F-Air. Needless to say, it is very risky. Miss and they'll most likely gimp you. Hit and it feels like Jigg's Rest (or so I've been told).

Up-Smash can be used to great effect if it hits. Mind-Game your opponent into running into it, or use it to hit a major screw-up/Side Dodge. Stomp -> Up Smash at very low percents can work, but Ganon has better options.

I see no reason what-so-ever to use U-Tilt in this Match Up.

What can be expected of Meta Knight:

You're heavy. With good DI, you're not dying for a long time... Unless Meta gimps you. If you're playing a Meta that is just camping and racking up damage, space well and you're going to win this match up without to much difficulty.

However: Aggressive Meta is going to be a bit hard. He's going to want to get you off the stage and Gimp you. (obviously) Even if they manage it, you still have options before you die to make you not die.

If they are hitting you off stage, always DI Up. Away or Towards depends on the current situation. Also remember: Meta's F-Air and B-Air can be Smash-Di'ed.

If you go bellow the stage: try to recover to the stage from bellow. If you get them with your recovery or they grab the ledge, you just recovered. If you are too low to do this, all they have to do is grab the ledge. If they are they type of player that likes to "get a final hit in," and they choose to use a D-Air or N-Air to do so, DI Up and into the stage and Tech. (if possible) The N-Air can be Smash-Di'ed for a second hit. More damage is better then dying, after all.

If you are above the stage: Stay above it. Keep track of Meta's remaining jumps and, if they come too close, Wizard Kick. If they hit you, it's going to be out further. DI Up and Away and you end up higher then you were before. Use this to your advantage. If they miss and you miss them, you're now closer to the stage and should be able to recover fairly easily. If the Meta player is coming back at you, and if you are so inclined, Up-B into them. It's a major risk, but it has a rather good reward tied to it. If you hit them with the Wizard kick, you're going to recover and there is a chance they will die. Bonus points if you follow them down and stomp their ***. :)

On stage, Meta will apply quite a bit of pressure. That being said, reacting perfectly and add Mix-Ups. His moves are fast and, in general, have more priority. (duh. He's Meta-****ing-Knight) It will take some time, but eventually you'll get the hang of it.

Match Up Rating

I rate this match-up as:
65 :metaknight: :: 35 :ganondorf: at most
52 :metaknight: :: 48 :ganondorf: at least

Ganon is at a disadvantage because, while playing perfectly, Meta still has fast, effective moves that can be hard for Ganon to get past.




That's it. Sorry for jumping between "I" and "you" as much as I did and sorry for the long read. How did I do for my first match up analysis? =D

Reguardless, I hope this helped at least someone. This is just how I handle and view the match up. I'm a really defensive player at heart and this obviously reflects that. It also looks like it turned out as a guide of sorts... Not my intention, but what ever. =D
 

ZeonStar

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Great post Meca. Against falcon, you guys should play with nair when playing against falcon. If falcon is approaching with nair or fair, your nair will most likely beat it, because nair has higher priority, and comes out instantly.

Nair is also nice for gimping characters with weak recoveries, and thats also very useful against falcon.
 

kciD

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Jan 17, 2005
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I picked up Ganon the last two times I played and I absolutely owned everyone with him. If I keep this up I'm going to main Ganon because he is awesome. Right now my only tough battle is ROB, and I think that's just because I have trouble with the guy's playstyle...he's REALLY good with projectiles and tricking you into doing what he wants. I still put up a good fight, though.
 

kciD

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Oh, I've got quite a few seconds. I play Falco, Wario, DDD, and Yoshi. Lately Ganon and Yoshi have been my favorites. It's so much fun to beat someone with Yoshi...haha...but I've been ****** with Ganon more than the others so if it keeps up I may have to declare him my main.
 
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