Playing Ganondorf in Brawl+ and How to Continue Murdering People

[stRIP]

I believe they will leave it in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUA2dUrL1A8

I've got a new match from me, one of my very first matches in 5.0

Critiqize me pls

 

[jalued]

ganon can still get shield grabbed, anyone else think that shields in brawl come out far too quickly? anyway to slow it down??

 

[Alphatron]

It's the shieldstun, I think. It was decreased in the nightly.

 

[jalued]

It's the shieldstun, I think. It was decreased in the nightly.

i think that was only for smash attacks. But imo shield stun should be alot higher

 

[leafgreen386]

i think that was only for smash attacks. But imo shield stun should be alot higher

Uh... no. Shieldstun was reduced. Period. The reduction doesn't just magically only apply to smash attacks or something like that, although the primary reason it was reduced was because of smash attacks. The shieldstun of all moves has been reduced.

I think the heavies are really feeling the shieldstun reduction the most, though, since their aerials have had their advantage on block drastically reduced, something they relied upon.

 

[Kaotical]

Uh... no. Shieldstun was reduced. Period. The reduction doesn't just magically only apply to smash attacks or something like that, although the primary reason it was reduced was because of smash attacks. The shieldstun of all moves has been reduced.

I think the heavies are really feeling the shieldstun reduction the most, though, since their aerials have had their advantage on block drastically reduced, something they relied upon.

I haven't tried out the new nightly build just yet (will today), but doesn't this mean that you need to space Ganon's moves now instead of just using f-air to *use fast move here*? Heavies (like Ganon) used to have ridiculous pressure which is why the change was made. Especially considering the auto-cancelled d-air of Ganon's; d-air -> jab or grab was really hard to avoid with options limited for escaping that.

Cape told me that he understands it may not be a totally perfect nightly, but that's why he's looking for some constructive criticism. Tweaks will be made.

 

[Ragnar0k]

Why is down b so **** awesome?

 

[Revven]

Because it's the pimpin' wiztruck son!

 

[goodoldganon]

Why is down b so **** awesome?

See the picture in the OP

 

[DUB]

Does ganon do better against CF or Mario?

I feel like Falcon has the speed and range Mario lacks to start combos on Ganon. As well as a better recovery.

 

[SmashBrosForce]

Does ganon do better against CF or Mario?

Brawl+ Ganondorf ***** ! Doesn't matter who is.

Nuff said.

 

[Kaotical]

Does ganon do better against CF or Mario?

IMO, Ganon has an easier time against Mario. Better range, more power all-round (duh), better tech-chasing moves, and slightly more bouncy than CF which is what Ganon likes. Mario 'can' gimp Ganon pretty soundly though, and IMO has better edge-guarding tools.

Ganon gets combo'd by CF way too easily and is obviously much more maneuverable. On the other hand, CF is a slightly easier target for Ganon and can use CF's mobility against him much like Ganon-vs-Fox.

IMHO, Ganon does better against Mario.

 

[lord karn]

CFs dd makes him a really hard matchup for Ganon, although you can pretty much chaingrab him to death if you manage to grab him.

 

[HolyOrderChipp]

So against most people, I have no trouble owning with Ganon+, and he's ridiculously satisfying to boot. I've enjoyed B+ immensely because, well, I wanted to main Ganon in vB, but first off, the game overall wasn't great, and second, Ganondorf was terrible. However, things are not all sunshine and daisies an Murder Chokes in Ganon+land. Y'see, there's this one player I have a ton of trouble against...

Alright, so he plays like my brother, if my brother were really good at Brawl. But you don't know my brother, so suffice it to say he was addicted to rolls, or as he and I called them for years, shield dashes. His mind games weren't very advanced, so once I learned to use down smashes, and not just go charging in blindly, I would beat him. However, this other player... Spams rolls, but actually has good mind games to back it up. Now I know a part of beating him is just improving my prediction. There's no way around that. But with Ganondorf I have a huge amount of trouble against his rolls. It's not just that I charge and use a running A and he rolls. It's that I predict his roll, and still don't know what to do about it. For example, approaching from the air, I know he'll roll behind me, but what'm I supposed to do? By the time I've landed and can do anything, he can even get in another roll. And of course, since attacking doesn't work because of his rolls, he can just attack me as I fall towards him.

But that's not all I'd like advice on: So he's Sonic, and loves Sonic's running A. My usual course of action is to block it. If he attacked from the back, I can punish him no problem. But if he attacks from the front, no way I can turn around and do something. So now we're fighting on his terms: He can roll either way and punish if I turn around to attack, and if I don't, his roll is still almost entirely safe, unless I predict that he rolls towards me and time an attack to punish. But he can just use another running A back at me. Seriously, running A pressure , the occasional smash attack, and combos that consist of repeated running A, own the hell out of me. He also plays Pit, but I'm not even gonna get into that.

TL; DR: Rolls are really annoying, and what are some good ways to beat Sonic's running A pressure plus roll mindgames?

 

[lord karn]

I don't see why mixing up retreating, advancing, and same position fairs wouldn't beat sonic's running a. If you know where he's going to roll just forward b.

 

[The Immortal Sir NZ]

So against most people, I have no trouble owning with Ganon+, and he's ridiculously satisfying to boot. I've enjoyed B+ immensely because, well, I wanted to main Ganon in vB, but first off, the game overall wasn't great, and second, Ganondorf was terrible. However, things are not all sunshine and daisies an Murder Chokes in Ganon+land. Y'see, there's this one player I have a ton of trouble against...

Alright, so he plays like my brother, if my brother were really good at Brawl. But you don't know my brother, so suffice it to say he was addicted to rolls, or as he and I called them for years, shield dashes. His mind games weren't very advanced, so once I learned to use down smashes, and not just go charging in blindly, I would beat him. However, this other player... Spams rolls, but actually has good mind games to back it up. Now I know a part of beating him is just improving my prediction. There's no way around that. But with Ganondorf I have a huge amount of trouble against his rolls. It's not just that I charge and use a running A and he rolls. It's that I predict his roll, and still don't know what to do about it. For example, approaching from the air, I know he'll roll behind me, but what'm I supposed to do? By the time I've landed and can do anything, he can even get in another roll. And of course, since attacking doesn't work because of his rolls, he can just attack me as I fall towards him.

But that's not all I'd like advice on: So he's Sonic, and loves Sonic's running A. My usual course of action is to block it. If he attacked from the back, I can punish him no problem. But if he attacks from the front, no way I can turn around and do something. So now we're fighting on his terms: He can roll either way and punish if I turn around to attack, and if I don't, his roll is still almost entirely safe, unless I predict that he rolls towards me and time an attack to punish. But he can just use another running A back at me. Seriously, running A pressure , the occasional smash attack, and combos that consist of repeated running A, own the hell out of me. He also plays Pit, but I'm not even gonna get into that.

TL; DR: Rolls are really annoying, and what are some good ways to beat Sonic's running A pressure plus roll mindgames?

In the situation where you set up, you are falling towards him and you know he's going to roll behind you. Simply back air his face in if he rolls early enough so you can maybe stop your momentum with the control stick, and if he rolls late, well just murder choke and knock him into the air with d-tilt. I'm guessing he isn't teching here.

Second situation with the dash attack. If he attacks from the front, call the dash attack and wiztruck. (I'm guessing it would trade with his dash attack or outprioritize it outright, but I dunno because of the terrible priority) If you do it early enough, you should catch him off guard before he even starts the dash. You could also go 300 style on him and spartan kick with the right timing, might take some practice though. If you actually let him hit your shield (which he shouldn't), try jumping out of shield (his dash attack has low shield stun if i remember correctly) and stomping. Or drop your shield and murder choke him. Or if you think he's gonna roll, drop your shield, pivot, and wiztruck. Far too many options to choose from, mix em up and see where they go

 

[HolyOrderChipp]

So I was messing about against Luigi in training mode, and I found the following: From 0%, Murder Choke, Dtilt, running A, jump and air Murder Choke. I'm pretty sure you could tech and maybe DI to avoid the third hit, and the fourth is probably DIable, but man, was it satisfying to go 0-50 that quickly.

Also, have you guys messed around with Dtilt's trip effect? I found I could land a Murder Choke after a Dtilt at 0%. Dunno about techability, but it was pretty cool. Unfortunately, the Dtilt following the Murder Choke didn't lead to another Choke. But whatever, it was still cool.

Edit: Oh, and what're some good combos against Sonic? I find that I usually land a lone move, and have a hard time following up. Basically, for each thing I'm likely to hit him with, how do I turn that into massive pain? He hits me more often than I hit him, so I've really gotta make it count...

 

[sffadsad]

Dtilt can trip?

 

[Shell]

It can trip, but I get the feeling that he's thinking of BBrawl, where it always trips...

 

[HolyOrderChipp]

No, I've never played BBrawl. I know it doesn't trip when your opponent has a fair amount of damage, but every time I used it on an opponent at zero, they tripped. Admittedly, I only did this against one character and a limited number of times.

 

[leafgreen386]

If you're having trouble with sonic's dash attack, it sounds to me like you're not jabbing enough. It comes out frame 4 and has even better range than his ftilt. It should stop his dash attack in its tracks. If you keep shielding it, you're just going to have to deal with cross-up after cross-up, and ganon doesn't take too kindly to cross-ups, since his main form of pressure relief is... his jab.

If you can predict a roll, just have an attack ready that will hit them where they're going to be. You know he's going to roll behind you? Turn around and do something about it (you could even punish with a dair if you wanted to, and we all know how delicious that move is when landed). You know he's going to roll away from you? Wiztruck him off the level. Is he playing the spotdodge game? Well, your jab has a shorter duration than his spotdodge does, so you'll be able to catch him with that. If you're falling and you think he'll roll, you can either nair, bair, or murder choke to try to catch him. The nair and bair have low enough lag that you may even be able to whiff, land and pull off a jab before he can punish you, assuming he rolled late.

Oh, and since murder choke is techable, murder choke -> dtilt isn't exactly reliable anymore. I generally just try to predict which way they'll tech and either dair or wiztruck them for it. Of course, if they don't tech, dtilt is still quite nice.

 

[SmashBrosForce]

Edit: Oh, and what're some good combos against Sonic? I find that I usually land a lone move, and have a hard time following up. Basically, for each thing I'm likely to hit him with, how do I turn that into massive pain? He hits me more often than I hit him, so I've really gotta make it count...

Dair -> Dair -> Usmash is a deadly and formidable combo. Also, Dthrow -> Bair can be used as a finish move in high percents because Sonic lacks weight enough to survive at high percents.

Man, there is no difficult to inflict a mortal combo against Sonic, Imo. I have to say that you can have a little trouble at trying to catch him to perform deadly combos or finish moves against him because he has a huge speed, as we all know.

- Dthrow -> Usmash -> Uair/Bair

- Dair -> Usmash -> Uair -> Fair near the ledge is a 0-death combo. This combo is crazy, but I'm not sure if it works.

 

[HolyOrderChipp]

Oh man, thanks. I tried Dair, Dair, Usmash, and it is awesome. I can even follow it up with an air Murder Choke, for 0-75. Probably DIable at least, but man, this Sonic won't know what hit him. I'm gonna experiment to find even more stuff against Sonic. I hope to have at least 50% from zero off of most of the stuff I'm likely to land.

Edit: So after more messing around: Dtilt, Murder Choke, Dtilt, Ftilt is pretty awesome and 0-50. Dthrow, Usmash, Fsmash is also 0-50. I haven't investigaged techability/DIability. I suppose I'll find those out when I try these on real opponents.

 

[SmashBrosForce]

Oh man, thanks. I tried Dair, Dair, Usmash, and it is awesome. I can even follow it up with an air Murder Choke, for 0-75. Probably DIable at least, but man, this Sonic won't know what hit him. I'm gonna experiment to find even more stuff against Sonic. I hope to have at least 50% from zero off of most of the stuff I'm likely to land.

Edit: So after more messing around: Dtilt, Murder Choke, Dtilt, Ftilt is pretty awesome and 0-50. Dthrow, Usmash, Fsmash is also 0-50. I haven't investigaged techability/DIability. I suppose I'll find those out when I try these on real opponents.

You can even perform Dair -> Dair -> Usmash -> Up-B (Since Ganon's UpB is being viable in Brawl+).

Remember, you can use [Dair -> Usmash -> Uair -> Fair] as a 0-death combo near the ledge, and Sweet Spot the Fair is a must.

Another combo that I thought very weird against CPUs is [Flame-Choke -> Dtilt -> Usmash -> Uair -> Fair]. I don't know if this combo works against people. >_>

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Does anyone here feel that ganon's down b kills a little to early? Personally, I think it should have a slight decrease in knockback, but what do you guys think?

 

[JCaesar]

Wiztruck is pretty redonkulous...

 

[The Cape]

Wiztruck is so slow and pronounced though. It seems like one of those moves that could KO you instantly and you would still see at best one KO from a match.

Not really sure, its so easy to punish and see coming that I feel its power is justified.

 

[JCaesar]

It is punishable on block and in some situations it's easy to see coming, but it does come out pretty **** fast for it's power, and it can be a pretty ridiculous edgeguard.

 

[Revven]

Also, keep in mind, Ganon does not have a hitbox on the foot of the Wiztruck, so it lacks priority until the thigh hits. You will likely be able to beat it before the actual main hitbox will hit you.

 

[CountKaiser]

That, and some characters, like G&W, can actually duck under the hitbox entirely.

 

[SmashBrosForce]

Also, keep in mind, Ganon does not have a hitbox on the foot of the Wiztruck, so it lacks priority until the thigh hits. You will likely be able to beat it before the actual main hitbox will hit you.

This !

1000000this !

That's why I stopped to use a lot Wiztruck.

 

[Demacrez]

I don't know if this is purposefully put in or not, but Wiztruck mid-air is a ridiculous meteor. Plus, you can jump back with recovery. I was able to KO a CP (Yeah, I don't have any one to play against) at near 30% with just Wiztruck and still recover.

It comes out quick enough and semi-meteors plus jump with recovery. I don't know.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't know if this is purposefully put in or not, but Wiztruck mid-air is a ridiculous meteor. Plus, you can jump back with recovery. I was able to KO a CP (Yeah, I don't have any one to play against) at near 30% with just Wiztruck and still recover.

It comes out quick enough and semi-meteors plus jump with recovery. I don't know.

100% intentional. The double jump was added a while ago to make his recovery better.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Wow, I'm surprised that some wbr members got on this discussion lol. So its safe to assume that the overall consensus is that the move is fine right?

 

[GHNeko]

Pretty much. It's not broken or anything and possible to get around.

 

[Ragnar0k]

It's the best tech chase ever though.

 

[Albert L]

You Pricks Made Ganondorf Worse! I Don't Know How You Could Possibly Nerf Ganondorf From Brawl To Brawl+, But Ganondorf Is The Worst In Brawl+, **** All Of You.

 

[Rudra]

^No explanation as to why you think he's gotten worse? You must be trollin'. Even if you're not, how in the world is Ganon+ worse than vBrawl Ganon?

 

[GHNeko]

You Pricks Made Ganondorf Worse! I Don't Know How You Could Possibly Nerf Ganondorf From Brawl To Brawl+, But Ganondorf Is The Worst In Brawl+, **** All Of You.

Albert L! All this means is that you get more satisfying wins against people in Brawl+!

When you win, it means you're even greater than your opponent than if you win in Brawl! Only the skilled win with Ganon+, no one else!

 

[Alphatron]

He probably doesn't have the pacs.