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Plateauing in Smash

exarch

doot doot doot
Joined
Feb 15, 2005
Messages
3,333
Location
Usually not playing Brawl. Location: Enterprise
So it's still strange for me to think of myself this way, but I've become one of the older (relatively) active smashers around these parts, by waiting for all who came before me to quit. That said, I'd like to address an issue which I find both fascinating and frustrating in our little game.

Depending on the player, after anywhere from 6 months to 2 years, everyone hits a skill level plateau. Once on this plateau they will beat and lose to the same players; the players around their skill level there may be streaks of wins and losses, but otherwise the individual has found his place in tournaments.

Many factors determine the length of time it takes for one to reach the plateau. These include the amount of tech skill practice taken. Being able to execute the proper punisher upon finding the opening is a key to anyone’s potential in smash. The number of tournaments attended is also important, in this case for becoming adjusted to the nerves of tournament matches. The number of different individuals played is part of this as well, just being exposed to different styles and tricks improves gameplay. Even the number of videos watched can have an effect, due to seeing new openings and uses for moves of which were previously unthought. These are the most obvious but not necessarily the only factors which effect the speed with which someone reaches their plateau.

This plateau explains many of the phenomena around the community. Ever wonder why that guy who beats your Icys with Peach also beats your Fox with Peach, even though Fox’s matchup is that much better? Or why you as a CF main are able to beat both the other guy’s main Marth and his secondary Falco? Admittedly, there is some fluctuation because of matchups and individual skill with characters, but on the wider scale the “height” of a person’s plateau is the determining factor in his success with any character. That is why Azen’s everything is/was amazing, why M2k has one of the best *insert character here* and why Mango now beats M2k with both Falco and Jigglypuff.

This also explains why so many old players have retired. Upon being supplanted by newer players who have reached higher plateaus, most are content with what they achieved and graciously step down and out. Whether they are explicitly aware of it or not, they are acknowledging that a sort of upper bound exists on their playing ability.

In Florida we have examples of all four combinations of old and new players with low and high potential in the game. (If you don’t feel like reading the next four paragraphs of examples skip to the bold word.)

A new player who has/had an incredibly high potential is Hbox. He literally came from no where and in probably around a year started winning tournaments, he has since clawed his way to continue his improvement, but not nearly as fast as when he first started. Before him was Colbol, who I remember as the upstart kid to whom I never wanted to give credit. But now everyone knows he’s too good. I have watched Colbol go from almost losing to my DK on FoD to 3 stocking my peach on the majority of neutrals. I have watched Hbox go from being an easy tourney win (one against which I have used Roy and Ganon) to getting 3rd place at the largest melee tournament ever.

In the category of old players who have been that good for a long time, I immediately think of Lambchops, who has been around even longer than myself, and whom I do not think I have ever beaten in a set. Regardless of the state of the metagame, Lambchops is one of the top players. Also is Shiz who has been recognized for a long time now (even though I remember at his first tournament how impressed he was with my falco lol. Rockcrock, Xif, QDVS, and Green have all been very impressive players for a very long time, regardless of how the metagame has developed.

In the category of old players who never have gotten very good, I can think of several, but will not mention other’s names. I’m tempted to put myself on this list: while I am above average I hardly am recognized as amazing by the smash community as a whole. (Thus I am an old player who has never gotten very good. I have no big tourney wins against any big name.)

Of course there are newer players too who have been stuck on a lower plateau. But if you are a new player who is not improving quickly, I’m not saying to give up! Perhaps you haven’t found your groove yet; I was one of the slower developing smashers, only I was fortunate enough to do it from 05-07.

Now I hinted in the previous paragraphs about this next topic. I have said smashers have been good or bad regardless of the metagame. However, one of the ways to temporarily break out of a plateau is to develop a new tactic. This new trick will assist in percentage accumulated or avoided and therefore will help with tournament wins. It will allow one to temporarily beat people who have a higher plateau than themselves. Nevertheless, once the trick is learned by the others in the community they will use it themselves or learn how to get around it. Thus, relatively speaking, they lower the developer’s plateau back to its normal height. That is why many older players continue to be good even as the game develops, but why there may be a fluke tourney win from another player every now and then.

So after all this analysis I leave you with the following crucial question:

How do we, as Floridians and the Atlantic South, break out of our individual plateaus and thereby raise the overall skill of our region?
 

harriettheguy

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 1, 2005
Messages
1,167
Location
On ya shield 20-fo-7
Record your matches and see why you get hit.

Eliminate technical flaws...practice.

Respect your opponent: assume they will try to get around your approaches instead of just thinking about hitting them.

Make a hit list.

Being able to vocalize the dynamics in different matchups so you're able to talk about it to higher level players or you're able to dilute it to baby smashers.


HAVE FUN. You're playing a spectacular and challenging game with a chill community.
 

Caleb Wolfbrand

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 6, 2005
Messages
3,443
Location
Ionia (Charleston, SC)
I am always wondering myself. I always answer myself with "you're in South Carolina, and Yay hates you so he never practices with you"

Young Link is the only character I've ever actually practiced in Melee, and I only kept that up to make the video cause I wanted to make it. I mean, I practiced every single character when I found out the game was... good... you know, when I went from playing Hyrule Temple to learning how to Lcancel. anyway, I feel I had some margin of success with YL, I think my video is a success, but...

I've never been able to... Perform as well as I would like to. And when I was going to GA semi-regularly for tournaments, each time I tried just thinking about everything. But regardless, the result will always be the same. I will always lose to the same people. Especially Jigglypuff, whom has taken me out of more tourneys than any other character by far. Now I feel I finally may have learned the Fox vs Jiggs matchup better, but yet, if I actually fight Soft, he'll probably 3 stock me.

Everyone else who was around me in Columbia, SC felt the same way. Most quit because of it. They could never beat me, and they were sick of playing it, so they left to BlazBlue / Street Fighter, which, funny enough, they still lose in... (thinking of a particular individual)

I have had road-blocks in my skill level before, and sometimes I have come over them. But this last one has never moved, nor have I gone around it. I'm stuck. Now that I moved to Charleston, SC, where there is literally 0 Melee players, I have nowhere to go but down. Sucks, but I can't do much on my own, and the only other players in SC give up, or avoid me like Yay does.

kinda ****in' sucks, doesn't it? Oh well, all we can try to do is believe and try out new things, new ways of playing... Not much else I can come up with.
 

SheerMadness

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 18, 2005
Messages
4,781
I had a period from like 2007-2008 where I felt like I didn't improve one bit but I still had fun playing so I kept it up.

But lately I feel like I have gotten significantly better.

My main problem is in tourney play. I don't think I'll ever be a good tourney player because I just get too nervous for some reason. It doesn't make sense to get nervous in a video game tourney but for whatever reason I can't keep myself from getting nervous.

I guess that the most frustrating part of smash for me. Getting ***** constantly by people in tourneys that I always go even with in friendies.
 

OverLade

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 19, 2006
Messages
8,225
Location
Tampa, FL
Great topic.

I feel that every time I play either Brawl or Melee at a smashfest I improve drastically or become more comfortable predicting my opponent.

Its exciting (especially melee) because I dont feel I'm anywhere near as good as I can be. Unfortunatley the lack of ability to go tournaments often and get experience causes me to occasionally regress mentally and lose the comfort zone I might have right after a smashfest.

I also agree about Watching videos, which I think is the main reason I'm able to get better everytime I play. I unconsciously go over the things I see in videos and during a match without even realizing it I may do something that I previously wouldn't do without thinking about it.

That's why melee is such a great game because of how ridiculously high the ceiling is for players to grow. It's far beyond what is humanly possible, for all of the viable characters.
 

DanGR

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Apr 10, 2008
Messages
6,860
I've noticed that people just have to drop their pride and ask other people to explain specifically why they lose in order to get better. Getting advice from more experienced people is really important. And not just in Smash; in life too.
 

bladeofapollo

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 10, 2006
Messages
980
Location
Orlando
Record your matches and see why you get hit.
I saw harriettheguy do this immediately after the match ended. It was inspiring.

It's also important to RECOGNIZE when you've plateaued, and not THINK you've plateaued. Don't give up because you don't think you can get any better, keep trying until you simply get bored of trying to get better.
 

Criosphinx

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 22, 2008
Messages
1,916
I am always wondering myself. I always answer myself with "you're in South Carolina, and Yay hates you so he never practices with you"

Young Link is the only character I've ever actually practiced in Melee, and I only kept that up to make the video cause I wanted to make it. I mean, I practiced every single character when I found out the game was... good... you know, when I went from playing Hyrule Temple to learning how to Lcancel. anyway, I feel I had some margin of success with YL, I think my video is a success, but...

I've never been able to... Perform as well as I would like to. And when I was going to GA semi-regularly for tournaments, each time I tried just thinking about everything. But regardless, the result will always be the same. I will always lose to the same people. Especially Jigglypuff, whom has taken me out of more tourneys than any other character by far. Now I feel I finally may have learned the Fox vs Jiggs matchup better, but yet, if I actually fight Soft, he'll probably 3 stock me.

Everyone else who was around me in Columbia, SC felt the same way. Most quit because of it. They could never beat me, and they were sick of playing it, so they left to BlazBlue / Street Fighter, which, funny enough, they still lose in... (thinking of a particular individual)

I have had road-blocks in my skill level before, and sometimes I have come over them. But this last one has never moved, nor have I gone around it. I'm stuck. Now that I moved to Charleston, SC, where there is literally 0 Melee players, I have nowhere to go but down. Sucks, but I can't do much on my own, and the only other players in SC give up, or avoid me like Yay does.

kinda ****in' sucks, doesn't it? Oh well, all we can try to do is believe and try out new things, new ways of playing... Not much else I can come up with.

I'm a SC player TRC :(
 

Caleb Wolfbrand

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 6, 2005
Messages
3,443
Location
Ionia (Charleston, SC)
I'm a SC player TRC :(
*points towards Charleston*
I believe we had that discussion...

Ja/Ryzol in Greenville plays Melee. you do. Yay does. and I do. and we're all really far apart, and now, I have no way to travel, which truly sux the blox, so unless you decide to venture into the absolute hell that is Charleston... y'know.
 

Zoro

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 9, 2005
Messages
2,610
Location
Orlando, FL
worst thing to do when you hit a plateau
do the same things you always been doing and hope your brain will just catch on as you play more and more
 

PolMex23

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 1, 2008
Messages
2,536
Location
Passion Central
i dont want to hit that plateau...

Ive been getting better everytime i touch melee...

i dont wanna mama I dont wanna!!! xD

Im scared of it because when i hit my plateau in weight lifting. I just could not get to 315 bench press, couldnt get past repping higher than 450 3 times(squat), couldnt get past 225 power cleans...couldnt get past my 4 7 40 time...

I couldnt do it, an I switched up everything...but than i blew out my acl so i just dont know...

But I did give up alil bit. But in that case I had no1 to urge me on and I had alot of people going against my drive for college football.

So, im afraid to hit that plateau

I think, the greatest aid to this, is help from others. For the mind is hard to conquer, yet with help all things all possible yes? Yes.
 

Pi

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 5, 2008
Messages
6,038
Location
Lake Mary, Florida
It really helps to be playing with people who can observe and critique, call out your mistakes, ask why you did this move instead of this one because that one leads into this move etc etc.
ask why you didn't do this to counter that
but it's important to actually recognize help when it's given and not take it the wrong way
it also helps to have another brain to be thinking about new innovative ways to play while you're focusing on honing the old ones, if you lack the creative ability I mean
 

VSC.D-Torr

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 9, 2008
Messages
7,000
Location
Kissimmee, FL (Poinciana)
This is one of the best threads I've read in a while.

I don't know if I've hit my plateau or not, but I do believe I am getting better each time I play. Playing WATO almost everyday in Valencia helped out tremendously. I still may not be good, as I consistently get owned by uuaa, Legion, Zoro and others. But when I see other people I've played with who I used to be at their casual level, I really see my improvement. I know I have a long way to go, but as long as I take it step by step and take my losses, eventually (and hopefully) I'll get to a more respectable level.
 

Frames

DI
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
2,248
Location
UCF (Orlando, FL)
its funny i read this and i immediately thought of raistlin

as a player i always knew he was good but i never saw him as really a top player and i see him do good in teams and singles but never amazing

then he gets 9th at genesis...i watched literally all his matches if u see how hes playing its really better then before...some people said he got a garbanzo bracket...but ur ******** because that tournament was mad hard

i could easily see him as a top player now where before that was never really something i considered...so i think like hes changed so much and can really grow...ya know?
 

Laijin

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 10, 2004
Messages
5,848
Location
Rylai the Crystal Maiden's Igloo
This new trick you speak of.
Oh man I know exactly what your talking about.

I was able to go even with Korean DJ, Chudat and Mewtwo King all in one night with my Young Link because of new tricks they have never seen before(of course it did'nt work a second time against them..but the first time..they were quite surprised). I literally did something every stock they've never seen before and it caught them completely off guard and they lost a stock for it.

Its a lot easier to come up with things people have never seen before when your playing a barely played character(Like Young Link), however that does not mean you can't come up with new things with heavily played characters(like Fox). All you have to do is think outside the box for once. This game allows for all the creativity and flexibility you want. Although the lines look heavily heavy and beaten in and they are not moving anytime soon, you are completely able to do whatever you want. Just keep in mind, people EXPECT the normal, so if you do something not normal or something their not expecting or used to..their completely thrown off guard and that gives you the advantage for that split moment.

The only reason I sit on my plateau is because I don't practice at all. lol.
I know how to get better than I am now and what I should work on. If I do that I would be so much better. haha.
But I'm just so busy with life. :(

Edit: Also. It DOES help to play a good character. I really did try to play Young Link for like 3-4yrs and rose to amongst the top....of young link players around the world(literally..those young link forums..lol). However, I rarely placed well because YL really just is'nt that great of a character. I literally picked up Sheik just last year and began placing A LOT better than I usually did just from that change alone. So playing your character really does help out a lot. If you main a mid-tier or below...your gonna have to try so much harder to get better at this game than if you just picked up higher tiered character. its the sad truth. :(
 

Rayku

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 21, 2004
Messages
1,832
Location
Minot, ND
I feel like I have hit a sort of plateau in Melee again. I have re-attained that same skill level that I had when I stopped playing temporarily come Brawl's release. I have picked up a new main (Ganondorf), and I have to learn his basics/advanced stuff and general playstyle from the beginning. It's hard, and I'm going to suffer some losses from it, but hopefully I'll be one of those players that people fear seeing their name against in brackets.

I find that the best way to improve oneself is exactly as harriettheguy said. Record your matches, and critique yourself. Other peoples' critiques won't hit you as hard as your own, because you went out of your way to notice your own mistakes. When people tell you to break a habit, it's harder to actually break it than if you told yourself to stop and made a conscious effort to do so.

I went to a tournament, and lost to Fullmetal. I wasn't aware that the match was recorded, but I watched it at least 15 times and noticed every little mistake I made. In the end, I felt like I was watching some trash player get destroyed by a Marth. I also noticed his mistakes, and I know what I can/can't and should/shouldn't do against him the next time.

Unfortunately, I don't have any videos of myself available to watch regularly, nor do I have any method of recording.

Brawl is another story. The game is much easier to get a firm grasp on, and the game gets slower as your placings increase. At least, that's what it seems like.

You look at a game between Desu and I, and it'll take at least 4 minutes to finish. They're always very close, but they're just a pain to watch. You watch a game between BigLou and I, and it's exciting because of the pace. Not only do we not camp each other (not out of respect, but that's because we both play the game for fun), but we're both solid players. I place well at the tournaments I go to (for the most part), and I've never once resorted to "camping" my opponent in order to win. I even got thanked once for not camping my opponent. This was at Genesis, when I fought Malcolm in pools. This was also right after I had gotten camped for 4 minutes by DMG (Drmarioguy).

Once again, recording and critiquing oneself is (for me, anyway) the most efficient method of improving.
 

Raistlin

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 28, 2006
Messages
1,215
its funny i read this and i immediately thought of raistlin

as a player i always knew he was good but i never saw him as really a top player and i see him do good in teams and singles but never amazing

then he gets 9th at genesis...i watched literally all his matches if u see how hes playing its really better then before...some people said he got a garbanzo bracket...but ur ******** because that tournament was mad hard

i could easily see him as a top player now where before that was never really something i considered...so i think like hes changed so much and can really grow...ya know?
Dude, I had the same thoughts about myself, like that I had hit this limit in ability and would never get better. I don't know what was going on at Genesis, but I was definitely playing better than I ever have before. I don't feel like anything changed though, lol.
 

Fizz-sama

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 19, 2005
Messages
849
Location
Memphis, TN
I definitely share the same feeling. I was never good, or wouldn't even dare say I was close, but I remember way back in the day I use to be able to hang with Nite. Then of course, he became much more beast, and with the combination of me not playing it anymore and remembering the days when we use to go even, it just got to my head, and I guess I forced myself to think I hit a plateau of sorts. Whenever I play lately, I don't really wanna' think I've improved, but perhaps just playing smarter (which I guess could be an improvement). I guess sometimes just a break is in order, to clear your mind out, so when you come back you can re-think everything with a level head.
 

RockCrock

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 16, 2003
Messages
2,688
Location
Play Project: M! Florida
Watch videos of the same character from multiple players. Synthesize the styles and tactics that you observe into something new and better.

Don't over-commit yourself to doing "reliable" comboes; instead, be loose and ready for anything.

Play more. Travel to other regions.

Take advice.
 

QDVS

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Apr 21, 2004
Messages
4,164
Location
Fort Myers, FL (Orlando/UCF for college)
IMO, most people plateau because of nerves and the inability to get past them, so their friendly level of play is always improving while their tourney level of play is stagnant!!!

That's just what happens to me though!!!

:colorful:
 

Dark Sonic

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 10, 2006
Messages
6,021
Location
Orlando Florida
lol Marth's side B has landed me so many grabs when it's not supposed to (and shieldbreaker is great for scaring people into bad defensive habits). High tier characters have plenty of tricks too (hint, look towards the character's "bad" moves).

Also, mad props to Raistlin. Yeah I joke around saying you're bad all the time, but you did really well. <_<
 

Dorsey

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Feb 22, 2009
Messages
1,593
Location
the sticky bottom, NC ©Dorsey combo
imo, I think that the majority of plateaus can be surpassed.. whether some people are more/less skilled or not. Most people who could fall under this category that I know could improve simply by dropping bad habits and developing new ones, stuff like being a lot softer on the j-stick opposed to mashing it.
 

QDVS

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Apr 21, 2004
Messages
4,164
Location
Fort Myers, FL (Orlando/UCF for college)
It really helps to be playing with people who can observe and critique, call out your mistakes, ask why you did this move instead of this one because that one leads into this move etc etc.
ask why you didn't do this to counter that
but it's important to actually recognize help when it's given and not take it the wrong way
it also helps to have another brain to be thinking about new innovative ways to play while you're focusing on honing the old ones, if you lack the creative ability I mean
I try to do this with Rx-, and he always has some reason (excuse) for why he does the things he does (that I'm commenting he could work on)!!!

I wish he'd just take my advice, instead of feeling the need to justify his playstyle like I'm offending him or something!!!

I pretty sure he listens and takes it in, but still...

:(

:colorful:
 

bladeofapollo

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 10, 2006
Messages
980
Location
Orlando
It's important to listen to criticisms other people give you. Even if you don't change your bad habits immediately, you'll be conscious about them afterwards and slowly work to fixing them.
 

bladeofapollo

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 10, 2006
Messages
980
Location
Orlando
Don't worry about it Andy, just tell people what to do/what NOT to do.

I love giving advice. I'm just usually afraid to do so because I'm not a well-known smasher, so I'm afraid people will think "some noob just tried to give me advice, wtf?" But if people are willing to listen, I'm willing to help.
 

CaptainCrunch

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 16, 2007
Messages
916
Location
orlando, near Kissime. Vistas
In my opinion, the first thing you need to do is **** plateaus.

That **** doesn't exist, the second you admit you are faced with a plateau is the second you start losing to it.

I felt this way when mr.HBOX with whom I used to go back and forth with when be both began melee got suddenly better.

For a while I felt that way, like I hit a plateau until one day i was like **** this **** I'm going to play this game until I beat Hbox.

He remembers that day i'm sure because i literally was driven and would not stop until I won.

You start analyzing everything, there is no ****ing way there is a player that can't be beaten.

They are just thinking more than you, predicting more than you.
What is their pattern, what and I consistently falling for.
YOU SHOULD BE STUPID PISSED WHEN YOU GET PUNISHED.

get some OCD about your game.
amateurs practice to be able to punish and have tech skill, pros practice to never miss a punish or any technical maneuver.

I've noticed that recently f-0 and I have been getting better, because we both feel that we can become better and polish our game even more than it already is.

**** this plateau, I can't get better ****, just don't give up and ****.
 

GDX

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 6, 2005
Messages
9,428
Location
Orlando, FL
NNID
GameDragonX2
In my opinion, the first thing you need to do is **** plateaus.

That **** doesn't exist, the second you admit you are faced with a plateau is the second you start losing to it.

I felt this way when mr.HBOX with whom I used to go back and forth with when be both began melee got suddenly better.

For a while I felt that way, like I hit a plateau until one day i was like **** this **** I'm going to play this game until I beat Hbox.

He remembers that day i'm sure because i literally was driven and would not stop until I won.

You start analyzing everything, there is no ****ing way there is a player that can't be beaten.

They are just thinking more than you, predicting more than you.
What is their pattern, what and I consistently falling for.
YOU SHOULD BE STUPID PISSED WHEN YOU GET PUNISHED.

get some OCD about your game.
amateurs practice to be able to punish and have tech skill, pros practice to never miss a punish or any technical maneuver.

I've noticed that recently f-0 and I have been getting better, because we both feel that we can become better and polish our game even more than it already is.

**** this plateau, I can't get better ****, just don't give up and ****.

its funnier cause he just explained how he overcame his plateau while saying he doesnt believe in plateaus :laugh:
 
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