Plateauing in Smash

[OverLade]

In my opinion, the first thing you need to do is **** plateaus.

That **** doesn't exist, the second you admit you are faced with a plateau is the second you start losing to it.

I felt this way when mr.HBOX with whom I used to go back and forth with when be both began melee got suddenly better.

For a while I felt that way, like I hit a plateau until one day i was like **** this **** I'm going to play this game until I beat Hbox.

He remembers that day i'm sure because i literally was driven and would not stop until I won.

You start analyzing everything, there is no ****ing way there is a player that can't be beaten.

They are just thinking more than you, predicting more than you.
What is their pattern, what and I consistently falling for.
YOU SHOULD BE STUPID PISSED WHEN YOU GET PUNISHED.

get some OCD about your game.
amateurs practice to be able to punish and have tech skill, pros practice to never miss a punish or any technical maneuver.

I've noticed that recently f-0 and I have been getting better, because we both feel that we can become better and polish our game even more than it already is.

**** this plateau, I can't get better ****, just don't give up and ****.

Lol.

If plateaus dont exist....why isn't everyone whos been playing Melee for 7 years as good as M2K?

 

[harriettheguy]

M2K is very hungry

and people go out of their way to feed him

And

You have to actively discover plateaus by going to tournaments (they're like magnet schools of intellect + art gallery),

they don't come to you when you sit comfortably on top of a tiny town.

There are many neighborhood heroes among us smashers.

 

[OverLade]

That is true. M2K does travel more than any other smasher, which gives him the widest variety of experience compared to anyone else. Other players could perform as well as he did if they had the same amount of experience.

*Needs to go to a Melee tournament*.

 

[bladeofapollo]

amateurs practice to be able to punish and have tech skill, pros practice to never miss a punish or any technical maneuver.

This sounds familiar...

 

[Pi]

A plateau would be if you played a match and you saw absolutely no way to beat the opponent.
Which can't happen.
Juss have to look at when you get hit, and look for openings in your opponents playstyle, and what you could have done differently when you actually got a hit in


And it's hard when you've been smashing with people for a while, if you've been competing with them amongst yourselves for so long, and you start trying to give advice, it can be taken the wrong way. Especially if you don't 3/4 stock them lol.

 

[CaptainCrunch]

Hbox says:

"Go OOS to overcome Plateaus.


Oh yeah, after I put my Wigglytuff avatar i got third at Genesis. I AM A ****ING WATERMELON."


:D

 

[CaptainCrunch]

its funnier cause he just explained how he overcame his plateau while saying he doesnt believe in plateaus

clarification: I don't believe at all that there is a certain point that a person can't reach. It's just all this talk about plateaus makes it seem like people don't think they can't overcome the challenge put up by extremely good players when really you just have to be stubborn and fight and practice until you get better and ****.

Lol.

If plateaus dont exist....why isn't everyone whos been playing Melee for 7 years as good as M2K?

Because they don't want to be good as badly.

If you really want to get good and work at it, you will eventually become ****,

it just comes down to how bad you want it.

for example Mr.HBOX has always been a competitive person, we used to compete in everything since 5th grade. He wants the win badly enough that he is willing to play and play until he gets better. This kid literally must play at least 2 or 3 hours of smash daily.

edit: hbox plays 5-6 hours a day

 

[OverLade]

Because they don't want to be good as badly.

If you really want to get good and work at it, you will eventually become ****,

it just comes down to how bad you want it.

for example Mr.HBOX has always been a competitive person, we used to compete in everything since 5th grade. He wants the win badly enough that he is willing to play and play until he gets better. This kid literally must play at least 2 or 3 hours of smash daily.

Mew2king only plays brawl at tournaments. And he doesn't practice melee anymore either.

And what about people who arent competitive/dont practice at all but still ****?

And what about people who are super competitive/practice all day, but always lose, and get really mad?

I know lots of both.

 

[harriettheguy]

Mew2king only plays brawl at tournaments. And he doesn't practice melee anymore either.

And what about people who arent competitive/dont practice at all but still ****?

And what about people who are super competitive/practice all day, but always lose, and get really mad?

I know lots of both.

Have you earned the right to sandbag?

That is true skilllll

 

[VSC.D-Torr]

And what about people who are super competitive/practice all day, but always lose, and get really mad?

You talkin' bout me?

 

[CaptainCrunch]

Mew2king only plays brawl at tournaments. And he doesn't practice melee anymore either.

And what about people who arent competitive/dont practice at all but still ****?

And what about people who are super competitive/practice all day, but always lose, and get really mad?

I know lots of both.

I don't know anyone who ***** in tourneys and does not play this game a hella lot.

and practice doesn't make perfect.

Perfect practice makes perfect.

Meaning, you can practice all the wrong crap for however long you want and you'll master the wrong stuff.

Playing people who are way better than you helps. I love playing WATO and HBOX specially because they all have different skills and punish in different ways and you have to constantly adapt.

for example, one of my worst match ups is shiek and juan can randomly play shiek and **** me.

It must have taken me like 5 rounds of thinking to try to change my game and adapt to shiek, and I ended up getting one win before he had to leave.

but most importantly you have to want to win and not give up until you do.

 

[DFEAR]

practice doesn't make perfect.

Perfect practice makes perfect.

thats quote worthy.

thats essentially the same philosophy that goes for all forms of gaming and life in general.

 

[bladeofapollo]

I don't know anyone who ***** in tourneys and does not play this game a hella lot.

and practice doesn't make perfect.

Perfect practice makes perfect.

PC Chris didn't own a Gamecube OR Melee for a year before he won MLG Las Vegas 2007... just sayin'

But yea, that practice quote is right, my physics teacher used to say "practice makes PERMANENT." Crunch's addition made it a great saying.

Practice makes permanent;
Perfect practice makes perfect.

 

[Prac352]

I just want to thank Exarch for that very well thought out and eloquently written post. Would read again.

Please . . . proceed

 

[Dark Sonic]

amateurs practice to be able to punish and have tech skill, pros practice to never miss a punish or any technical maneuver.

I believe the quote was

"Amateurs practice until they get it right. Professionals practice until they never get it wrong."

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

In my opinion, the first thing you need to do is **** plateaus.

That **** doesn't exist, the second you admit you are faced with a plateau is the second you start losing to it.

I felt this way when mr.HBOX with whom I used to go back and forth with when be both began melee got suddenly better.

For a while I felt that way, like I hit a plateau until one day i was like **** this **** I'm going to play this game until I beat Hbox.

He remembers that day i'm sure because i literally was driven and would not stop until I won.

You start analyzing everything, there is no ****ing way there is a player that can't be beaten.

They are just thinking more than you, predicting more than you.
What is their pattern, what and I consistently falling for.
YOU SHOULD BE STUPID PISSED WHEN YOU GET PUNISHED.

get some OCD about your game.
amateurs practice to be able to punish and have tech skill, pros practice to never miss a punish or any technical maneuver.

I've noticed that recently f-0 and I have been getting better, because we both feel that we can become better and polish our game even more than it already is.

**** this plateau, I can't get better ****, just don't give up and ****.

Professional Athletes even agree that this stuff exists. Infact, you used to play chess, right? How the fvck are you going to tell me plateaus don't exist when you've played chess competitively since you were like 5 or w.e

Even Mr Kasparov has said something similar to "plateaus exist" in one of his interviews on youtube. Was für eine last von scheisse.

 

[OverLade]

Have you earned the right to sandbag?

That is true skilllll

In brawl I have.

But I dont know how to sandbag in Melee, but I can only play my best if my opponent is playing at a level higher than where I currently am. I dont completely have control over the game yet so I can't say.

I don't know anyone who ***** in tourneys and does not play this game a hella lot.

and practice doesn't make perfect.

Perfect practice makes perfect.

Meaning, you can practice all the wrong crap for however long you want and you'll master the wrong stuff.

Playing people who are way better than you helps. I love playing WATO and HBOX specially because they all have different skills and punish in different ways and you have to constantly adapt.

for example, one of my worst match ups is shiek and juan can randomly play shiek and **** me.

It must have taken me like 5 rounds of thinking to try to change my game and adapt to shiek, and I ended up getting one win before he had to leave.

but most importantly you have to want to win and not give up until you do.

Well if you're thinking Melee then sure you have to learn Tech skill etc.

But a lot of top players never owned a gamecube etc. I'm just saying that some people naturally have a better capacity to be good at games (similarly to Athletes, who all have different genes, and body structures).

I think people overestimate plateuas, considering there's SO MUCH to learn about melee (and even brawl). Once both players know everything about a matchup, game mechanics, and the matchup is actually even (both characters have the ability to handle all other opponents tactics if reacting properly), after about 20 matches you should be able to tell whos a better player.

edit:
Also, you have to factor in someones brain growth over time. Some people have been playing video games since a very young age, which is why their mind has such an aptitude for smash. Other people might not have been playing as long, but their mind is already technical and works well mathematically (in a way that helps them with smash). So when considering whos better, sometimes it's impossible to tell why.

You talkin' bout me?

No of course not, I've never even played you before.

 

[CaptainCrunch]

Professional Athletes even agree that this stuff exists. Infact, you used to play chess, right? How the fvck are you going to tell me plateaus don't exist when you've played chess competitively since you were like 5 or w.e

Even Mr Kasparov has said something similar to "plateaus exist" in one of his interviews on youtube. Was für eine last von scheisse.

In everything you do competitively you will meet challenges. When I do anything chess included I recognize these challenges but in no way do I believe they are insurmountable. When I think of plateaus or a challenge I always try to fight and never give up.

TO me it seems that if you recognize a plateau or if you say you have reached your limit then that's when you really have reached your limit. Sure there are points where its hard to reach the next step, and if that's a plateau then they do exist. But the larger the challenge the larger the reward on the other side.

So when I read all these smashers talking about how they can't get better I think it's stupid. Anyone can get better, you just have to want it.

In chess I thought in kindergarten that 2nd graders were impossible beat in chess, in 1st grade i thought 5th graders were impossible to beat in chess.

Musicians I know always use the saying "the cool thing about music is that when you start there is only 1 step ahead, after that first step you are able to see 3 more steps ahead, after those 3 you see 5 more ahead. It never ends, there's always a next challenge to face and you can always get better."

A plateau is just a transition b/w steps.

 

[CaptainCrunch]

In brawl I have.


Well if you're thinking Melee then sure you have to learn Tech skill etc.

But a lot of top players never owned a gamecube etc. I'm just saying that some people naturally have a better capacity to be good at games (similarly to Athletes, who all have different genes, and body structures).

I think people overestimate plateuas, considering there's SO MUCH to learn about melee (and even brawl). Once both players know everything about a matchup, game mechanics, and the matchup is actually even (both characters have the ability to handle all other opponents tactics if reacting properly), after about 20 matches you should be able to tell whos a better player.

edit:
Also, you have to factor in someones brain growth over time. Some people have been playing video games since a very young age, which is why their mind has such an aptitude for smash. Other people might not have been playing as long, but their mind is already technical and works well mathematically (in a way that helps them with smash). So when considering whos better, sometimes it's impossible to tell why.

The fact that you don't own a gamecube doesn't mean you pick up the game in 5 secs and win lol. I didn't have a gamecube for like a year yet I still played smash like every day during summer and on weekends if homework permited during the school year at Hungry's. PC not having a cube has nothing to do with how much he played smash.

in Regards to natural skill, I think mindset has more to do with it than just being good.
Some people I know play smash passively. They "try" and win sometimes and lose at others and they get better slowly.

Then there are the people who get good fast, they actively think each game, refuse to lose, and when they do they think about what they did wrong, what strategy the opponent is using and how to beat it.
If I think of a new Idea and use it against Hbox I'll win one maybe two matches, but he'll adapt and start winning again which forces me to adapt again to try to win again.
Active thinking will always trump passive because of rather than just playing you are doing everything to become better.

Even though everyone strives for victory it's better to win than to lose. When you win you learn nothing, when you lose you are forced to learn if you want to win.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

In everything you do competitively you will meet challenges. When I do anything chess included I recognize these challenges but in no way do I believe they are insurmountable. When I think of plateaus or a challenge I always try to fight and never give up.

TO me it seems that if you recognize a plateau or if you say you have reached your limit then that's when you really have reached your limit. Sure there are points where its hard to reach the next step, and if that's a plateau then they do exist. But the larger the challenge the larger the reward on the other side.

So when I read all these smashers talking about how they can't get better I think it's stupid. Anyone can get better, you just have to want it.

In chess I thought in kindergarten that 2nd graders were impossible beat in chess, in 1st grade i thought 5th graders were impossible to beat in chess.

Musicians I know always use the saying "the cool thing about music is that when you start there is only 1 step ahead, after that first step you are able to see 3 more steps ahead, after those 3 you see 5 more ahead. It never ends, there's always a next challenge to face and you can always get better."

A plateau is just a transition b/w steps.

Alright, I can respect this post.

Do you still play? We should play sometime =)

 

[CaptainCrunch]

Alright, I can respect this post.

Do you still play? We should play sometime =)

Chess or smash?

I still play both so it's good either way.

I'm always at hungry's so you can call him up, but I'll be going to FL gaming so if you come I'll we can play.

 

[VSC.D-Torr]

amateurs practice to be able to punish and have tech skill, pros practice to never miss a punish or any technical maneuver.

and practice doesn't make perfect.

Perfect practice makes perfect.

Meaning, you can practice all the wrong crap for however long you want and you'll master the wrong stuff.

But yea, that practice quote is right, my physics teacher used to say "practice makes PERMANENT." Crunch's addition made it a great saying.

Practice makes permanent;
Perfect practice makes perfect.

I believe the quote was

"Amateurs practice until they get it right. Professionals practice until they never get it wrong."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exOxUAntx8I

 

[MikeSanti]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exOxUAntx8I

roflmaooooo

 

[harriettheguy]

Practice on lightning melee

 

[OverLade]

In everything you do competitively you will meet challenges. When I do anything chess included I recognize these challenges but in no way do I believe they are insurmountable. When I think of plateaus or a challenge I always try to fight and never give up. *general post*

You're forgetting something in the athlete analogy, that also applies to the human mind.

Usain Bolt is currently the fastest man in the world. He's also nearly 7 feet tall. Someone who is 5 feet fall will NEVER have the same potential him because it's beyond their bodies limitations. Human muscles have a limitation to grow and the human mind has binds that doesn't allow people to use more than a certain percentage of muscle strength to avoid injury. So no matter how hard this person trains, he will never have the potential of Usain Bolt.

This also applies to the human mind, as not everybody has the same IQ (I'm not saying IQ's are what determine how good you are in smash, but obviously SOMETHING does). Some people become amazing in a short amount of time, mabye only practicing in training mode, while someone else might go to tourneys for a year, and never be as good as the first person. Mentally some people are more creative and can grasp the basics far more easily. Another example is how some players may be extremely technical, but not as good as DaShizwiz, and some players may be basic, but still **** harder than far more technical players. Practice makes you smarter, sure but not everyone seems to learn at the same speed.

The fact that you don't own a gamecube doesn't mean you pick up the game in 5 secs and win lol. I didn't have a gamecube for like a year yet I still played smash like every day during summer and on weekends if homework permited during the school year at Hungry's. PC not having a cube has nothing to do with how much he played smash.

in Regards to natural skill, I think mindset has more to do with it than just being good.
Some people I know play smash passively. They "try" and win sometimes and lose at others and they get better slowly.

Then there are the people who get good fast, they actively think each game, refuse to lose, and when they do they think about what they did wrong, what strategy the opponent is using and how to beat it.
If I think of a new Idea and use it against Hbox I'll win one maybe two matches, but he'll adapt and start winning again which forces me to adapt again to try to win again.
Active thinking will always trump passive because of rather than just playing you are doing everything to become better.

Even though everyone strives for victory it's better to win than to lose. When you win you learn nothing, when you lose you are forced to learn if you want to win.

Not everyone learns the same way. Melee is a game where you need tech skill obviously, but that's not what will make you win. So after learning basic tech skill and then not have to practice anymore.

Anyway, brawl is a much better example of what I'm trying to explain. Because there's no tech skill barrier, there's basically nothing between who wins except for smarts and character matchups. Assuming the matchup is even, the smarter player should win majority.

Ally for example, was able to beat the 2nd best pit player in the nation in pit dittos. Ally doesn't use pit, I GUARANTEE he doesn't use pit, outside of dabbling around with him for fun. Ally is just exceptionally smart to the point where he doesn't need practice to outsmart someone and beat them.

Anyway I dont think people should just judge their limits based on who they can beat or not, I'm just saying not everyone has the same potential.

 

[SleepyK]

this is a good thread. tbh I've never felt that I've plateaued since everywhere I go, I know there's someone better than me that I can learn from. I've had a few opponents that I've been able to test myself against and trade sets with (Cornel aka C..... Menthol aka Fullmetal, and s0ft). Each of them has also improved and performed better OOS, leading me to perform better OOS. I've had that one guy to **** me for my mistakes and show me how much more I have to learn (chaddd, now lambchops).
The only times I've seen other players plateau is when they start refusing to learn or recognize their mistakes. or when they no longer have people to regularly practice against/stop traveling. even then, they usually find the time to practice technical things and test themselves when they travel. i dunno, exarch, i had always seen you improve at each tournament you went to in 07. then i stopped seeing you go to GA tournies


also lol @ this

This new trick you speak of.
Oh man I know exactly what your talking about.

I was able to go even with Korean DJ, Chudat and Mewtwo King all in one night with my Young Link because of new tricks they have never seen before(of course it did'nt work a second time against them..but the first time..they were quite surprised). I literally did something every stock they've never seen before and it caught them completely off guard and they lost a stock for it.

at vls? "going even" for one game doesn't count as "going even" and lol @ going even. come on, laijin. come on.

The only reason I sit on my plateau is because I don't practice at all. lol.
I know how to get better than I am now and what I should work on. If I do that I would be so much better. haha.
But I'm just so busy with life.

johns. you had plenty of time to play guilty gear and other fighters.

Edit: Also. It DOES help to play a good character. I really did try to play Young Link for like 3-4yrs and rose to amongst the top....of young link players around the world(literally..those young link forums..lol). However, I rarely placed well because YL really just is'nt that great of a character. I literally picked up Sheik just last year and began placing A LOT better than I usually did just from that change alone. So playing your character really does help out a lot. If you main a mid-tier or below...your gonna have to try so much harder to get better at this game than if you just picked up higher tiered character. its the sad truth.

rofl
jash beat cort and kirbstir
bum beat isaiah
character johns are not legit johns.
if jash can beat cort and kirbstir while you couldn't come close, you clearly weren't in the same class of player as jash, therefore you were only the best "young link" in the sense that no one else played him.

no offense laijin, but posts like those make me lol.

 

[CaptainCrunch]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exOxUAntx8I

Lol too good.

 

[SleepyK]

we sittin here
i'm supposed to be a franchise playa
we in here talking bout practice

 

[F Zero]

Sleepy i don't think laijin was johning when he said it helps picking a better character. I think he was trying to say "winning is easier" when picking a better character, which is true. Low tiers can beat high tiers yes, but it takes alot more work to do that, than to beat a high tier with a high tier.

 

[SleepyK]

nah, he was johning. it's GA son

 

[Saltix]

Man F this. I think I've plateaued in brawl

I was at Jamaal's gamefest and i got plenty of games in with Biglou and Desu, and I honestly don't think I got any better. I saw that I was doing plenty of stupid things, and I needed to be a little more patient, and My diddy did a little better vs them, but I was getting wrecked. Unless I was playing MK, then it wasn't that bad :/

I mean I pretty much fought MK and Snake all night. And thats no fun.
I'm thinking of stopping Brawl in favor of melee, because I can get A LOT better in that game from where I am now, but my wii isn't reading discs right now so I have no way to even practice melee :|

 

[Blatt Blvd]

i dont think anyone really plateaus.

ive realized this past year that plateaus happen when you play the same people.

even not playing for a bit is good so you dont plateau(or if you think you plateau'd, try and take a break)

ive gone out of state, to orlando, tally,gainsville,ft myers, and other northern fl city tournies probably 50 times since april/may of 05(for melee and brawl) and up until the past year, i never really sat down and played people in friendlies(save for old nexus days, which was a good smash time in my life with a lot of improving and local tourny wins ^_^).

usually i just run around acting like an *** or smoke good *** weed.

and for the life of me i couldnt figure out why i wasnt getting better.

now i know.

play friendlies with alot of people ***s.

its really the only way to get better.

(if someone said this already sorry, didnt wanna read through anything but the exarchs post)

 

[Laijin]

Wow Sleepy. Really?
Thats a bit ridiculous bro.

1. Playing by yourself all day long will only get you so far with SSBM. I can practice tech skill all day long but if I have no one to play with, which I usually don't and have always never did, then there is no point in playing. Correct? Why practice a game by myself where I won't get much better when I can invest my time into something that is more enjoyable by yourself like...any other fighting game. lol.

2. Playing a top tier character makes it much easier to win in most cases than playing a low tier character. Notice how I said most cases. Please don't omit that keyword. thanks. In this case, Sheik has a much easier time with most characters than Young Link does. Its fact in this game. Don't argue with that. This game is not as balanced as other fighting games.

3. Character johns are not completely legit johns because you chose to play that character, however I don't see how your able to completely misunderstand me when I even spelled it out in reasonable detail on why some characters are just able to perform better than others.

4. When I made the "going even" example, thats all it was. Going even by displaying new, effective ways to do things people have never done before. I thought I'd mention it because it was mentioned in a previous post. I was not trying to make myself seem better than I am or whatever you thought or think I'm trying to do. Its an example. lol. I'm pretty sure I made that clear as well so gtfo off my **** bro.

This post should fully clarify my previous post in this thread. If your misunderstand anything I said your ****ing ********.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

this game is just as balanced as other fighters.

other(balanced LOL) fighters have like 12 characters.

nice try tho

 

[QDVS]

I agree with Doodah!!!

It's what Chops says a lot too!!!

 

[SleepyK]

Wow Sleepy. Really?
Thats a bit ridiculous bro.

1. Playing by yourself all day long will only get you so far with SSBM. I can practice tech skill all day long but if I have no one to play with, which I usually don't and have always never did, then there is no point in playing. Correct? Why practice a game by myself where I won't get much better when I can invest my time into something that is more enjoyable by yourself like...any other fighting game. lol.

2. Playing a top tier character makes it much easier to win in most cases than playing a low tier character. Notice how I said most cases. Please don't omit that keyword. thanks. In this case, Sheik has a much easier time with most characters than Young Link does. Its fact in this game. Don't argue with that. This game is not as balanced as other fighting games.

3. Character johns are not completely legit johns because you chose to play that character, however I don't see how your able to completely misunderstand me when I even spelled it out in reasonable detail on why some characters are just able to perform better than others.

4. When I made the "going even" example, thats all it was. Going even by displaying new, effective ways to do things people have never done before. I thought I'd mention it because it was mentioned in a previous post. I was not trying to make myself seem better than I am or whatever you thought or think I'm trying to do. Its an example. lol. I'm pretty sure I made that clear as well so gtfo off my **** bro.

This post should fully clarify my previous post in this thread. If your misunderstand anything I said your ****ing ********.

1) lol @ playing by yourself all day long. the only reason you play cpus is to keep your fingers fresh, bro. 15 minutes of ******* around, making sure you can still do your tech when you want to is all you need, baby. can't play anybody? l2drive. don't have a car? l2getrides/l2job.

2) doodah, you're right... but other fighters (outside of like marvel and prob 3rd strike) matchups don't get that bad and low to bottom tiers can win tournaments. if melee were to remove its low tier, would mid tier still be able to win tournaments?

3) this is dodging my point of acknowledging what you said and trying to clarify something else using your answer. yes, characters are better than others. i'm talking about something else. your low tier explaination doesn't explain how

a) you said you were as good as jash
b) you couldn't come close to beating the people that jash was able to beat with the same character you were using
c) if jash could do it, why couldn't you?
d) " caveman " " ", " " "?
e) actually, this was probably about something similar but not exactly what i'm typing. i can't really remember what I was trying to get at, so i guess i'll run with this.

answer - you were never as good as jash. therefore, you were never one of the best YL mains. please don't try to assert that because you're one of the few people who play a certain character you're one of the best.

I'm the best solo popo mains in Dekalb, probably the world.

4) laijin, we all like to talk ourselves up. w/e bro.

 

[Laijin]

this game is just as balanced as other fighters.

other(balanced LOL) fighters have like 12 characters.

nice try tho

No. Its not.
I'll even compare it to one of the most popular competitive fighters.
Melee's tier list:
Bottom tier: Pichu.
Has a Pichu ever won a big tournament? No. And it never will. Ever. Because everyone else is just 1000x better.

Guilty Gear's tier List:
Bottom tier: Holy-Order Sol.
I'm pretty sure that not only have HOS players won big tournaments, but the tier list of who wins big tournaments are all over the place. Sure Eddie tends to win the most(which is why he is top tier), but other characters actually stand a chance. So you can ACTUALLY play the character you enjoy playing and STILL win.

Wow if that does not sound like good balance then idk what else to tell you guys.

Edit:
I'm just gonna edit this post instead of making a double post.
I'm not even going to bother making a serious reply to your post(SleepyK). Seems like no matter what I say your going to dispute it. So there is no point. You can go ahead and believe whatever you want to about me.
No harsh feelings though, your still pretty chill.

 

[SleepyK]

reread what doodah posted.

i like to double post but since most of the ATL south mods are my friends now, it's not as fun anymore.
That's kind of the point of debating. I have nothing against you, laijin, and I hope my debating doesn't make me seem hostile to you or anything. I just like debating.

i think guilty gear is one of the few games with a 20-ish roster that has a viable bottom tier.

gg is an exception to the statement that doodah brought up.

but my point still stands - if melee were to remove its low and bottom tiers, would mid tiers be able to win tournaments? my money's on probably not for a while.

 

[Laijin]

this game is just as balanced as other fighters.

other(balanced LOL) fighters have like 12 characters.

nice try tho

I'm taking the bolded part as sarcasm?
Is he not implying that other fighters not balanced as well?

 

[Caleb Wolfbrand]

I think people over-estimate Guilty-Gear's "balance" a bit. Eddie is still overwhelmingly gay when played by an absolute master. Like, ruin-the-fun for me gay. Robo-ky gets sad.

Even Melee doesn't do that for me. Took me forever to accept Jigglypuff though.

At first glance I believed BlazBlue to be really balanced but now I'm not so sure about that v-13 ho.