Peach Weekly Match-Up Rediscussion: Meta Knight

[deepseadiva]

I accept it and all (and grateful we have like one MK in my region, who has little idea on how to handle the betch). But, d*** if it isn't sad.

I'm still hopeful we'll find something to turn this around though. ^^

Speaking of which:

Honestly, if Peach's turnips just went through MK's tornado, she could outcamp him and have a good enough matchup to be high tier.

The Olimars discovered awhile ago that pikmin color correlated to the terrain it was plucked in. I was thinking awhile back that it could possibly affect turnips.

Winky faces (or one of the faces anyway) hit though tornado...

 

[Canvasofgrey]

Winky faces (or one of the faces anyway) hit though tornado...

I think Winky Faces, and stitchfaces hit through tornado, I'm not sure about dotty face. Honestly, if you want to win a lot of nationals in any fighter game, just go with the highest tiers. The best Peach just doesn't bluntly doesn't cut it against the best metaknight. Plain and simple.

I'm happy just to stand up and and go down fighting and giving Metaknight a sweat if I can help it.

 

[Villi]

The only good turnips are winky, dot-eye, and stitch.

=/ I don't like thinking of match up numbers. I think there are various levels of strategy and counter strategy and the skills and decision-making necessary to execute them. Just be aware of what's going on and keep control the best you can.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

seems like MKs ***** us over as peach. oh well, he'll have to answer to my Fox or Zelda from now on....

 

[Razmakazi]

Do pivot grabs go grab MK outta nado everything when the height is right?

 

[Canvasofgrey]

I think only when Tornado is at least half way done when the priority is lowered can you pivot grab him out of it. And once again, it has to be at the right height else you just get sucked into the nado.

 

[goodkid]

Seems like Peach can't take MK, I main Zelda so this isn't as tough for me just because she has tilt lock & high power to demolish the crap out of MK @ low %. Its still a tough match-up, but Peach really is a "pocket" character, if u want to win, u'll need another character besides Peach to take MK. Kirby seems to do extremely well against MK, any of the high tiers do well & some mid-low tier, Ness does surprisingly decent against MK, but thats my opinion, MKs like a magnet to dair ^_^.

 

[cutter]

You guys aren't alone.

G&W and many other characters suffer the same fate to MK like Peach does.

All MK has to do is play very defensive, be as gay as gay can be, and abuse the grounded up B. He pretty much has free wins over many characters because of this.

People just haven't fully tapped into this kind of potential yet because they are turned off by playing gay. But it is only a matter of time before this becomes the standard for MK play.

Keep in mind, MK's up B EASILY overrides G&W's Bair.

 

[Morrigan]

Let's be realistic: 30:70

 

[Razmakazi]

Well...at least m2k wins w/o playing gay. =(

 

[Canvasofgrey]

You guys aren't alone.

G&W and many other characters suffer the same fate to MK like Peach does.

All MK has to do is play very defensive, be as gay as gay can be, and abuse the grounded up B. He pretty much has free wins over many characters because of this.

People just haven't fully tapped into this kind of potential yet because they are turned off by playing gay. But it is only a matter of time before this becomes the standard for MK play.

I hope when it does become the standard then MK will get the lovely ban from tournaments.

 

[Eddie G]

Well...at least m2k wins w/o playing gay...

as often. <-----

This is why he can dominate and still retains my complete respect as a player. Even if MK is his choice of character, he still just outplays his opponents without always relying on some "easy-baked" character strategy, minus dair camping, but let's face it...it's a smart way to play as MK, so more power to him. But as for the matchup, MK's advantage 70:30 no question. XP

 

[cutter]

I hope when it does become the standard then MK will get the lovely ban from tournaments.

You should also consider that many tournaments also ban Planking and they ban DDD's infinites.

I have a feeling the movement to ban MK will pick up steam later down the road.

Now NY is seriously considering banning the G&W/ZSS combo in teams just because of the bucket strategy. No joke.

The future of Brawl is really looking to be in dire straits.

 

[Eddie G]

I agree with cutter. Although some of these topics/strategies that are (up for ban/banned) are very good and advantageous for the user, they are not completely unable to be overcome, except for let's say...someone who can IDC with MK for most of the match.

It really is sad that so much has to be banned or considered for ban to make the competition in this game as "fair" as possible. Oh well, at least competition is still possible in such a game that was so unintended for competitive play.

 

[BentoBox]

Shall we all hop on the Diddy bandwagon?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Shall we all hop on the Diddy bandwagon?

naw, lets go on the Fox bandwagon.

 

[cutter]

naw, lets go on the Fox bandwagon.

There's just one small problem...

 

[Deleted member]

mew2king doesn't play gay at all and if you think he does you have no idea what you're talking about and you haven't played him.

i play this match with m2k pretty often and it's not so bad prolly like 55/45. the only real problem is that peach falls slowly so she's a sitting duck and MK can bait air dodges and upair her all day. usually I just dair and hope that I get one of the long hits that hits him followed by a fastfall upair (I save my fastfall and hope MK is baiting an air dodge). IMO snake is worse.

dash away pivot grab, angling the shield to dash attack/ftilt/fsmash, or well timed up B out of shield all beat tornado but each of them has its own risks.

turnips are more worthless in this match than usual (but they're still mostly useless). if MK jumps at you doing things there's a 90% chance he will grab the turnip anyway and Z drops actually let him dair you better.

floating at like falco head height the dair will beat grounded up B every time np.

 

[Praxis]

You guys aren't alone.

G&W and many other characters suffer the same fate to MK like Peach does.

All MK has to do is play very defensive, be as gay as gay can be, and abuse the grounded up B. He pretty much has free wins over many characters because of this.

People just haven't fully tapped into this kind of potential yet because they are turned off by playing gay. But it is only a matter of time before this becomes the standard for MK play.

Keep in mind, MK's up B EASILY overrides G&W's Bair.

SoCal's starting to. Both Valdens and I lost to Viet at BIO2, who played like this :/ He never, ever, ever approached me. It was horribly stupid.

This is why I've wanted MK banned for so long. He has SOME ******** gay thing he can do in every matchup, it's just not being fully exploited yet. Sean was even showing me stuff he can do on Diddy. The only matchup he doesn't is Snake, and all the MK's get their panties in a bunch calling it a counter, but the top MK's beat the top Snakes...even IMO :/


But this isn't a ban MK thread. Planking is going to be banned at some point; I think FICTION and I are going to start trying to convince TO's to try out the Japanese 80-grabs ledgegrab rule. That'll help, but I think if an MK plays gay enough, we'll still have to counterpick.

The G&W's might too, I dunno. I think you guys still have it better though haha

mew2king doesn't play gay at all and if you think he does you have no idea what you're talking about and you haven't played him.

i play this match with m2k pretty often and it's not so bad prolly like 55/45.

Sounds like Dark.Pch talking about M2K...
I think M2K's not playing gay enough against Peaches. You said he's not playing gay at all. He SHOULD play it gay. If he camped you with tornado during jumps and up-B OOS every time you approached you'd get *****. The fact that you say he's NOT playing it gay means he's not approaching the matchup properly.

dash away pivot grab, angling the shield to dash attack/ftilt/fsmash, or well timed up B out of shield all beat tornado but each of them has its own risks.

All of Peach's methods of stopping the tornado rely on her being grounded. He just has to tornado every time you jump.

floating at like falco head height the dair will beat grounded up B every time np.

He should up-B OOS in between your dairs or even during.

Now NY is seriously considering banning the G&W/ZSS combo in teams just because of the bucket strategy. No joke.

I've learned to ignore everything NY does. Seriously, give it no further thought. NY also banned the DDD infinite, have a DK as their dominant player, at one point banned the Ice Climbers chaingrab, and ban Jungle Japes and several other universally legal stages.

Above all, NY has Inui; the primary reason not to take them seriously. They're easily the most ban happy region (Texas may have banned MK at one tournament, but they haven't banned half as many stages or techniques).

 

[goodkid]

Can't Peach just play smart, predict half of MKs moves & toad them? I mean if u predict a dash-attack thats 17 % in MKs face, only just baiting & grabbing can beat toad, but can it work? I mean nothing is impossible & the ZSS/G&W combo is stupid to ban, i mean they still haven't won a major tourney, & nothing should be banned unless it is proven to be broken consistantly. Wes & Dire didn't even win cot4 & still placed 3rd a few times w/ M2K there, so it must not be broken >_<

 

[Deleted member]

I think M2K's not playing gay enough against Peaches. You said he's not playing gay at all. He SHOULD play it gay. If he camped you with tornado during jumps and up-B OOS every time you approached you'd get *****. The fact that you say he's NOT playing it gay means he's not approaching the matchup properly.

maybe, but I had the same results against Dojo. perhaps playing gay reaches a limit faster, where actually playing makes the match easier? I know it is unlikely because it's brawl, but at least I can stab at some ideas. I've beaten most of the other MKs I've played so far without much difficulty. But all the good ones (m2k dojo omni others) that actually play the char beat me.

 

[Razmakazi]

Goodkid , when you say words like "predict" or "baiting"it kinda assumes you're better than the MK playing. These are things MKs of equal skill can do to you too except with a better moveset so basically Peach can play smart but so can the MK so it's plain to see who has the overwhelming advantage.

edit: Umbreon, lol...I posted as you were posting...anyway, playing gay works all game long. It just does. It's stupid. But yea, it is just the rly good mks that are the problem. And the top ones like Dojo and M2k prolly care about their rep so they don't play gay but I'm willing to bet that they know that they can easily spam the holy hell outta a Peach or Gdubs if they're smart about it.

 

[Canvasofgrey]

Can't Peach just play smart, predict half of MKs moves & toad them? I mean if u predict a dash-attack thats 17 % in MKs face, only just baiting & grabbing can beat toad, but can it work? I mean nothing is impossible & the ZSS/G&W combo is stupid to ban, i mean they still haven't won a major tourney, & nothing should be banned unless it is proven to be broken consistantly. Wes & Dire didn't even win cot4 & still placed 3rd a few times w/ M2K there, so it must not be broken >_<

Predicting and baiting only goes so far. As Raz said, this is only assuming either you're much better than the Metaknight player or that the Metaknight player can't learn or adapt at all. Toading is very risking for Peach because even though Toad is much better in brawl than melee, it still keeps Peach VERY open to punishment. Any meta knight player that can learn and adapt will overcome this easily.

@ Umbreon:: Playing chicken for Metaknight works. It's plain and simple, and quite so, unbeatable against Peach since she has no absolute range attack that can over come it. A campy Metaknight will beat out Peach. And assuming that, you tend to counterpick with a character that has good long range. That's okay but then an adaptive Meta knight will then go on Offensive, and will just beat the heck out of the long-range character since they most likely compromise long range and melee range.

For me, if I face against a campy Metaknight, then I rather just go Zelda since my Zelda has a better chance against Meta Knight than my Peach does in pretty much longe range and short range aspects.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

So because I'm being awkward, why is it that pulling up a Turnip always means a Tornado in your face?

Turnip pullings aren't that slow and since you have to have some distance to pull up a Turnip, you could always mix it up and not pull up a Turnip and bait the tornado and say pivot grab it (not exactly a great option I know)

If you're shield is weak from the last Tornado and MK pulls away and decides to try again, you could always Toad him...although Toad is risky, especially against MK

What about SH Dairs in this match up? How do they work? Speaking of Dair...I was messing about doing Floating Dairs above MK with his shield up and when he used an OoS Up + B, I didn't get hit by the initial hit if I was Floating just above his head directly above him. Obviously, these are tests and far from an actual match up but it's a thought...could you possibly get a Dair in and get a Nair to hit him afterwards? MK hasn't got a very big sheild remember

I realise I'm throwing all kinds of crazy suggestions at you but if they're wrong, then no big deal. If they happen to be actually helpful, then that's good right?


I was very ready to pull things to a close and re write the match up but...well, it's interesting that Umbreon has popped up and is telling us that the match up is pretty even with experience from one of the best MK players out there from what I know. It conflicts with what the other users have said

If anyone could pull some MK mainers in here with good Peach experience that would definitly help a lot

 

[Razmakazi]

Quite honestly idk if u shud rewrite the ratio coz we don' t need the mk mains to gay every peach they see. =o

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Quite honestly idk if u shud rewrite the ratio coz we don' t need the mk mains to gay every peach they see. =o

I still highly dislike this idea. It's not helpful in the slightest and it doesn't solve problems - it simply delays them. I realise it's not my money on the line but I don't see anything positive or helpful in the long term that this will bring

Also, how stupid will we look if I write a false match up and then some time later, MK's storm in and say 'You've got it all wrong, we can just do all this to you!' and we reply with 'Oh yea we know, we just thought we wouldn't tell you. Aww noes you found out how to beat Peach'

 

[Razmakazi]

I was kinda kidding but I c how sarcasm is hard to pick up online. xD

 

[EdreesesPieces]

70-30.

Let me explain why. Every strategy for Peach to get in on Metaknight and beat him relies on a Metaknight mistake. You are relying on him to make mistakes. If Metaknight is played at a near perfect level, and Peach is, the Peach does not have any options for approach. Period.

The reason we are winning any matches against MK is

A) Turnip camping. This is what you can hope to do to prevenet him from using his character advantages. Throw turnips, don't approach and run away. Once MK's positioning and timing is compromised you can move in and string some hits in. However, what if MK gets a lead? You can no longer do this. If you are in the lead, MK has a tough time getting in but it can be done. If MK is in the lead, he can simply stand there and UP B OOS or tornado ( depending which way you come from) your approaches.

B) Matchup inexperience. Metaknight can INTERUPTT the FIRST down air right after it occurs and DOWN AIR PEACH OUT OF IT. This means technically Peach cannot down air MK at all if he knows how to handle it by smashing DIing into a down air. Peach's rely on the MK's matchup inexperience.

C) Metaknight/Sheik syndrome. This is where the player has such a good character, they think they are bestowed the right to win and have the advantage. I find that MK players tend to get frustrated faster when there is a move they can't get around because they are not used to dealing with that sort of thing. Other than the best MK players around, MK players tend to adapt slower for this reason. Everything they do works so often so regularly, that if something doesn't work, they tend not to back a back-up plan ready. This affected Sheik in Melee and is what I used on Sheiks in that game. Example: MK cannot UP b peach in the air to gimp here, she can down air + air dodge , and the combinatino of this can always avoid the UP B. MK players have 10 other options that work but they still keep trying to UP. Very dumb and stupid adapting skills, but UP B has worked for them so much they aren't ready to adapt when it doesn't. If they realize they can simply up air instead THEN up be when you are in bad position, it becomes wayyyy harder.

Trust me, I used A + B to beat many a Metaknights. But if they played campy to remove (A) and knew the matchup (B) the combination made me feel like I had no chance, and even as good of a Peach I was, I felt the matchup was so hopeless I'd switch to Ness and win because it was easier with Ness Also, I have lost more tournaments sets to Metaknight than any other character in Brawl despite it being one of my most knowledgeable and comfortable matchups I'm very comfortable with the matchup, its just that the options are so limited at the highest level of play. Don't forget that Peach does not have a real counterpick stage on MK but Metaknight has a gillion solid ones to choose from making it even tougher.

Peach simply has to solidly think and outplay the MK to win the match. It's 70-30. I can think of about 12 seta with good MK players where I have outplayed them and out predicted them but still lost the match because I didn't do it to a 70-30 type of ratio. Lots of times I knew what MK was doing, he didn't know what I was doing but relied on his instant low lag attacks and high KO power (compared to Peach) to compensate for it and win regardless of being outplayed. Peach has a lot of tricks on MK and Peach players can beat MK players but the MK player can adjust and adapt to anything Peach can do, but not vice versa. For this its a solid MK advantage.

70-30.

 

[Canvasofgrey]

7

C) Metaknight/Sheik syndrome. This is where the player has such a good character, they think they are bestowed the right to win and have the advantage. I find that MK players tend to get frustrated faster when there is a move they can't get around because they are not used to dealing with that sort of thing. Other than the best MK players around, MK players tend to adapt slower for this reason. Everything they do works so often so regularly, that if something doesn't work, they tend not to back a back-up plan ready. This affected Sheik in Melee and is what I used on Sheiks in that game. Example: MK cannot UP b peach in the air to gimp here, she can down air + air dodge , and the combinatino of this can always avoid the UP B. MK players have 10 other options that work but they still keep trying to UP. Very dumb and stupid adapting skills, but UP B has worked for them so much they aren't ready to adapt when it doesn't. If they realize they can simply up air instead THEN up be when you are in bad position, it becomes wayyyy harder.

Pure mind games here. I love it.

 

[Eddie G]

Edrees wins the thread. 70-30 indeed.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Does anyone know how long Dark has left on his ban? I'd like to start the next re discussion asap

And could someone highlight anything that merits Peach having anything decent vs MK? It's been a rather depressing rediscussion as all I've seen is the things Peach can't do. Turnip spam and outplaying your opponent seems to be the only way to win by the looks of things. Is there anything else?

It seems that the general agreement for this match up is 65:35/70:30 and the final result is most likely going to be 70:30 unless someone can jump in and prove people otherwise

Looks like I might have to start training my Sonic or some other secondary up should I ever encounter a good MK xD

Ah wait, just one last thing - Edreese, why do you find this match up so hopeless? What is it that shuts Peach's game down so much? I'd be interested to hear

 

[Airgemini]

Does anyone know how long Dark has left on his ban?

His ban ends tomorrow.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Great, I'll start up with the other thread now. Quick summary of things. Tell me if I've missed anything


Meta Knight is Meta Knight. There is no other way to put it. He is currently top of the tier list and by the looks of things, he is staying there. Everything he does is incredibly safe. You can't edgeguard him effectivly thanks to his recovery options, he greatly outranges you and has a massive variety of kill moves compared to Peach

MK has ways of stopping and punishing Dair approaches and Turnips can be easily punished by MK. Whilst they're good, they're not good enough. Peach's options to deal with his Tornado require to be on the ground the large majority of the time. This is one of Peach's hardest match ups and if MK knows the Peach match up, it's going to be an uphill fight through out. Remember, MK doesn't have a projectile so smart use of Turnips is essential. Don't rush at him, stay on the defensive and always be on the lookout for times you can punish MK. You're going to have to outplay MK if you want to stand any chance of beating him

70:30 in Meta Knight's favour

 

[EdreesesPieces]

It's his ability to come up with options to counter anything that she is doing, and it mostly stems from the fact that he can 'escape' any of her moves using either the tornado, up air, down air or Shuttle Loop. These aren't amazing moves for damage racking on her, but they can be used to 'escape' any setup she has. If Metaknight is extremely patient and gay it's just really really hard...maybe it was mentioned but shuttle loop off the ground has INVINCIBILITY FRAMES. Easy, easy way to knock her out of float.

It's not hopeless, 70-30, she can still win for sure. You just have to play twice as good as the other player. And that's the best way to approach the matchup to beat MKs. You gotta think "I gotta outthink and outplay this guy on a 2-1 ratio" and you can do it. Except when you are fighting the top MK players, managing to do that sort of thing is extremely hard.

Highlighted things she can do that are really good

-She can contest him off the ledge and under the ledge. If you drop to up air using the invinicibilty frames, and up b, you can challenge him on the ledge. He will be greedy and keep trying to gimp you and you can keep racking free damage.

-If he whiffs UP B coming back from the ledge, shield it and punish with back or neutral air.

-Down air beats airborn shuttle loop from above, try to catch him into it. If you do it high on the stage you can down air kill him at relatively low percents.

-Turnip game can frustrate him

-F-smash beats tornado if spaced

-Downsmash breaks through his shield. Follow Bone's advice - use the second hit of back air and follow up with downsmash or something else.

-Float above him and wait for him to downsmash or tease him, he will downsmash and you can space yourself to avoid it and punish with f-air

-Up air is a relatively decent killer if it's 100% fresh

-Forward tilt is really good, especially out shield, it keeps him modest and away from you

 

[Niko_K]

I'm not going to give my input, but you guys are so wrong about 70:30. It's definitely 55:45 maybe 60:40 at most.

Thanks.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

awww comeon Niko i wanna hear it, please for me? : 3

 

[cutter]

I'm not going to give my input, but you guys are so wrong about 70:30. It's definitely 55:45 maybe 60:40 at most.

Thanks.

Oh wait! G&W can nearly go even with MK as well.
























...no he can't. Not if MK just plays gay and G&W barely stands a chance. Just like he can do with most other characters; Peach included.

 

[Niko_K]

Don't hit MK's shield and use F-Tilt and Dodge Drops of Floats. It is not 70:30.....

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Don't hit MK's shield and use F-Tilt and Dodge Drops of Floats. It is not 70:30.....

Erm...could you expand?

Please, give your input as to why this match up is not as bad as most others think. The more contribution we get, the better we can develop Peach's metagame

 

[Niko_K]

Im too lazy to write up a large summary with no real reward..

Some cool things I do though are....

- SH Dair and land behind him the instant the 4th kick htis and grab (Guaranteed Grab)
- SH Dair , start float during 3rd kick (ending up behind him), Double Bair, Down Smash (Guaranteed Shield Poke)
-Delayed Dash Attacks are un-punishable by MK if spaced properly *so only the second hit connects.* Sure it does 4%, but it keeps him away. He has no responses out of shield to this either.

Double Jump U air outranges all of MK's aerials and creates a juggle, you can then read his air dodges and punish.

Shield getting hit?

SH Dair OoS counters D-Tilt
DA OoS counters F-Tilt
F-Tilt/DA OoS counters Fair/Bair
F-Tilt/DA/Nair/Bair/Jab counters Nair
U-Air OoS counters Dair
Nair OoS hits Up B and clashes with it's GA
SDI top left/right to Nair breaks Nado

Random other stuff later