Official SWF Matchup Chart v2.0

[Gardex]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIscdbAlcxI#t=3m11s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkPRFd49iRg#t=3m03s

If Glutonny actually didn't mash out with a jump-command, then he wouldn't have been air-released

 

[Z'zgashi]

But he did, and in the end, thats all that matters.

 

[Alphicans]

Yeah sometimes wario mains just assume the other player will assume they won't press jump, so if you every once and awhile go for the aerial release it'll work, cause people get lazy.

 

[Iota]

Mashing against GW is always a bad idea. That match exemplified why.

 

[infiniteV115]

It's only bad for Wario cause for most air releases, G&W can't get the punish.

 

[Iota]

I don't understand what you mean V. GW has a couple options out of air release that I'd find very troublesome.

 

[infiniteV115]

Yeah, cause you play Wario.

 

[Iota]

Hmm, I should've clarified I guess. My earlier post where I said mashing was always a bad idea, I meant it as in if you were Wario it's always a bad idea. GW's options on other characters with bad GRs are rather sucky iirc.

 

[Alphicans]

Yeah it's always a bad idea, but as just demonstrated, even at top level people will mash just because they'd never expect someone to go for the GR. Obviously people shouldn't mash, but the risk reward for GaW going for the GR sometimes is ridiculously in his favor.

 

[Iota]

That's a habit top Warios need to get out of imo. There are several characters that don't normally GR us that have really stupid options on us.

 

[Alphicans]

I am not arguing that, but the sad truth of the matter is that it'll probably continue to happen. Sometimes it just happens by accident.

 

[da K.I.D.]

That's a habit top Warios need to get out of imo. There are several characters that don't normally GR us that have really stupid options on us.

sonic gets a free f smash.

makes the matchup soooo much more fun.

 

[Iota]

Some characters that don't normally air release Wario have a pivot grab/standing infinite on him. It can be pretty lame.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

If Wario is grabbed out of the air and you pummel immediately, it'll force an air release.

Very applicable in the Puff/Wario MU.

 

[Iota]

I thought getting grabbed out of the air forced the release no matter what.

 

[fox67890]

If Wario is grabbed out of the air and you pummel immediately, it'll force an air release.

Very applicable in the Puff/Wario MU.

I don't think it works that way.

Assuming you normally can't force aerial releases on your opponent:
I'm aware that if you grab someone out of the air and pummel immediately, it does force an aerial release, but it's completely character specific. For instance, if Fox or Wolf grabs MK out of the air and pummels immediately, an air release will be forced. However, if Falco grabs MK out of the air and pummels immediately, MK will still ground release (assuming he doesn't mash jump). I'm pretty sure most characters follow what happens with Falco.

So it's character specific. Generally, characters will be air released if their feet are off the floor (usually due to a height difference in characters) or if they mash jump. Grabbing someone out of the air and pummeling immediately only works for certain characters against other certain characters. I'd imagine the MUs where this actually works is very few, but I'm not sure.

I just tested to see if Puff could grab Wario out of the air and pummel immediately to force an air release. She (...or He? It?) can't force one. Wario will still ground release if he doesn't mash jump.

@Iota: Assuming they wouldn't get air released normally (like say, Fox to MK), if you only grab them out the air, they'll still ground release.

 

[Neon!]

Have the mu chart v3 discussions started yet? Which group are we waiting on?

 

[Iota]

Hasn't started yet. Snake and a few other chars haven't gotten 5 players yet I think.

 

[Luco]

I'm surprised that Snake of all chars doesn't have the magic 5. You'd expect it to be LTs...

 

[Sinister Slush]

MVD took almost three weeks for the thread cause things it seems, and so far it seems like for the better half of the thread it was mostly arguing about how it's not important and who should be on it that'll be active.
No members as of yet though.

 

[Alphicans]

The problem with m/u chart is a lot of good players complain about the panels having people who shouldn't be on it, so they decide not to be a part of it, thus leading to more unfit people to be part of the panels. It's a vicious snowball effect :/.

 

[Ishiey]

We should be moving on to the next phase towards the end of this week.

Because I'm tired of waiting, and just want this crap to be over with

 

[Cassio]

Oh btw this is super late, but Maize beat Mike with ICs not ROB.

 

[bubbaking]

So, uh, for the future, perhaps you should consider creating different 'mini-panels' for different specific MUs. For instance, some players are extremely good at, or understand very well, a certain MU or couple of MUs but they're bad at others. A (bad) example is that I play John12346 a lot, so I'd like to think that I've got a handle on the DDD:Lucario MU, but I've never faced a good Pika, so I wouldn't even dream of speaking out on that specific MU unless extreme theorycrafting was being promoted and encouraged. In this way, panels could possibly be smaller. Just an idea, you know...

Trap option out of low percent UpB chase when your jump is gone.

I've played Falco vs. G&W with out local G&W main since the game came out. Pop Falco into the air, double jump aerial, UpB to chase, read air dodge, money shot. You don't have another jump and you can easily be too close to the ground to get a fair. If you don't like your odds with a nair landing trap, Judge gets to come out to play.

Saw the situation arise in tournament when our G&W was playing Kismet and I just got this terrible chill run up my spine where I knew exactly what he was going to through and that itch turned true and Kismet lost a stock at 30. That moment was so hype.

But yeah, I mention a situational move on a character with properties that support getting pummeled on a good read. I've only ever seen solid set-ups for Judge on spacies and D3, so I'm no expert.

Could you please elaborate on that setup? I'm not sure I understand the first couple of paragraphs.....

 

[C.J.]

So, uh, for the future, perhaps you should consider creating different 'mini-panels' for different specific MUs. For instance, some players are extremely good at, or understand very well, a certain MU or couple of MUs but they're bad at others. A (bad) example is that I play John12346 a lot, so I'd like to think that I've got a handle on the DDD:Lucario MU, but I've never faced a good Pika, so I wouldn't even dream of speaking out on that specific MU unless extreme theorycrafting was being promoted and encouraged. In this way, panels could possibly be smaller. Just an idea, you know...

It would also be a million times more work for Ishey and Marc.

That's why every character board has a thread where people on it can post their opinions on the MUs and people in the panels can learn from that. Then, if a player feels like they don't have a good grasp on the MU then they just don't vote and vote weight gets shifted around.

 

[Alphicans]

Well lets say you nair -> nair the falco, lots of the time they'll DI so you can follow up with a upB to combo. Now lots of that time the DI will be such that they'll be above you, but just by a little bit. Falco falls faster than you, so you'll roughly fall in unison, and since falco doesn't have any options to contest with another nair, a well timed air dodge is usually the option falco's choose, so if you nair -> nair -> upB -> wait a second judgement, it'll connect a lot of the time.

 

[C.J.]

He should obviously firebird into you.

 

[bubbaking]

Ah, I see Alphicans. Thanks for the detailed explanation! One question I have is: What if Falco were to Phantasm in that situation?

 

[C.J.]

Then G&W drifts under him and gets a smash while Falco lags for a million years when he lands.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Ah, I see Alphicans. Thanks for the detailed explanation! One question I have is: What if Falco were to Phantasm in that situation?

He probably won't. He would need enough room to get away (canceling makes you eat a smash for sure instead of just probably) and he would risk GW simply throwing out a falling Nair to land cancel and put you in a nasty landing trap where you have a frame disadvantage or a falling UAir which pushes your Phantasm ten miles into the air.

If you were to, for some ungodly reason, read Judgement, and you had the required space you could Phantasm, but it's not practical.

 

[hell-dew]

Hell-dew, I've seen you post a few times but I never see you at tournaments around here
idk about Pit. With Pikachu, if you're afraid you're going to die off the side/corner then you uair-->fastfall-->sideB towards the stage.
If you're afraid of dying off the top, use any aerial (I think bair is actually the best due to some sort of weird hurtbox displacement but it's a minimal difference) --> fastfall immediately.

idk about Pit.

Late replay (srry missed this) but ive faced you before you've decimated me XD. Ive been practicing some here and there. not surprised you dont remember me though lol >.>

actually last tourney i was in second round doubles against you and Tin (i was pit my partner was rather pikachu or G&W).

 

[infiniteV115]

Yeah after BlackGold mentioned it I remembered playing Dew in doubles at that tourney. The thing is I didn't know which person we were playing was Dew.
So basically, I know you exist and I know you were at SiD10. I just don't know which physical person in the room was you XD

 

[Praxis]

Please go ahead and SDI bair all the time. This is a good setup for a dsmash so go ahead.

Not with my character. Eat a nair.

And please don't fall for that Praxis bull**** about bair being ****, it's just not true. Bair is great.

Is too. You're just bad.

 

[Gardex]

I remember the video Praxis made about the bair.

The G&W bairs were either poorly spaced or rising bairs(so he had time to punish between the last multihit and the landing hitbox).
Not once did you demonstrate how to stop a well-spaced bair that is timed so that the landing hitbox comes out right after the other multihit moves.

Answer: It's not easy if you're not Marth, MK or Diddy holding a banana.

On shield, of course.

 

[hell-dew]

Yeah after BlackGold mentioned it I remembered playing Dew in doubles at that tourney. The thing is I didn't know which person we were playing was Dew.
So basically, I know you exist and I know you were at SiD10. I just don't know which physical person in the room was you XD

Lol its all good il make sure to say hi next time lol maybe il ask for a friendly or something so yeah be expecting to destroy a nub next time .

 

[infiniteV115]

Are you the Pikachu I played at the end of that one smashfest and I was showing you how you were rolling too much by waiting for you to roll and punishing it with dsmash/dash attack?

If so...**** I still don't remember what you look like >.<

 

[pidgezero_one]

hell-dew! one of the only 2 dudes who i have ever taken to time!!!

 

[C.J.]

I remember the video Praxis made about the bair.

The G&W bairs were either poorly spaced or rising bairs(so he had time to punish between the last multihit and the landing hitbox).
Not once did you demonstrate how to stop a well-spaced bair that is timed so that the landing hitbox comes out right after the other multihit moves.

Answer: It's not easy if you're not Marth, MK or Diddy holding a banana.

On shield, of course.

Or Bowser. Maybe DK too.

 

[Gardex]

I can kind of see Bowser, but DK? Kinda iffy about that one

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I really doubt DK could do it.