Official SWF Matchup Chart v2.0

[-LzR-]

Wait DK has OoS moves?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Upb all day

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Both aerial up-b and grounded up-b will only be safe from frame 10 onwards...

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Uhh to be honest I don't do a very good job of keeping track of any OOS options that aren't crazy obvious because the way ZSS hits shields you don't usually need to worry too much about anything unless they PS. lol

Actually this has been a problem for me when learning other characters.

 

[bubbaking]

Actually, DK's aerial upB hits on frame 4 and is invincible from frames 4-6.

Edit: Looking at that, I'm wondering if it would ever be a good option for DK to jump OoS > upB. Perhaps an escape to the ledge?

 

[Praxis]

I remember the video Praxis made about the bair.

The G&W bairs were either poorly spaced or rising bairs(so he had time to punish between the last multihit and the landing hitbox).
Not once did you demonstrate how to stop a well-spaced bair that is timed so that the landing hitbox comes out right after the other multihit moves.

Answer: It's not easy if you're not Marth, MK or Diddy holding a banana.

On shield, of course.

No, I do it all the time to actual G&W players. It's very viable. Yes, it's harder than in the video, but completely doable. Requires a bit of instinct to compensate for their spacing.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Actually, DK's aerial upB hits on frame 4 and is invincible from frames 4-6.

Edit: Looking at that, I'm wondering if it would ever be a good option for DK to jump OoS > upB. Perhaps an escape to the ledge?

6 Frame Jump.

6 + 4 = 10.

 

[infiniteV115]

You can JC every upB in the game btw. (I'm actually not 100% sure of this but I know you can JC DK's upB)

And if done properly you don't have to suffer ANY jumpsquat frames. (Or at least this is what KPrime told me)

So yeah theoretically his JCupB comes out on frame ....?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I assumed that if you JC'd it, it wouldn't be the aerial one though?

Grounded up-b gets SA on frame 10.

 

[infiniteV115]

SA? Super armor?
When does it hit though.
And yeah if you JC it, it would be a grounded upB.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Doesn't hit until frame 16 when grounded I think, dunno about aerial one

 

[bubbaking]

DK has 6 frames of jump squat? Ouch!

And DK gets SA on frame 10, btw. It lasts until frame 16.

 

[infiniteV115]

DK has 6 frames of jump squat? Ouch!

That's not that bad. The shortest jumpsquats are 4 frames.

 

[bubbaking]

DK's aerial upB hits on frame 4 (which is when the invincibility comes in). His grounded one hits on frame 19.

 

[-LzR-]

Tbh DKs upB seems like a really crappy OoS move.

 

[Myollnir]

That's not that bad. The shortest jumpsquats are 4 frames.

Squirtle says hi. :D
This + Frame 5 B-air/F-air and Frame 4 N-air is pretty good out of shield since he moves really fast in the air...

DK has really slow moves, that's really sad, especially when he's shielding. A Frame 8 Grab, a slow jab, and his spotdodge is bad as well. But DK's still pretty cool.

Oh and his shield drop is TERRIBLE. Why the **** is he extending his arms? That makes Ivysaur's BS safe on shield... :rire:

 

[bubbaking]

Doesn't DK's grounded upB kill above/behind him with the first hit, or is that only Melee?

 

[infiniteV115]

Pretty sure it's only Melee. In Brawl it probably won't kill light characters til like 200%

 

[da K.I.D.]

Still seems like a good move to punish rising stuff. Like if you block a zss up air out of shield you could punish with dks air up b out of shielf for like 30 percent

 

[infiniteV115]

^
wa t

 

[da K.I.D.]

You have a character that does an instant rising aerial. Like zss up air.

Dk blocks, jumps out of shield and does aerial up b before the opponent lands

Opponent gets carried by up b for like 30%

 

[bubbaking]

Won't you get punished when you land (assuming you don't reach a ledge or something)?

 

[infiniteV115]

A full hop ZSS rising uair shield is too safe for DK to be able to punish it on reaction with an aerial upB OoS. Maybe a character with a rising speed like Falco or Sheik, but not DK.

Also, lol @ 30%. It's called SDI dude.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

This is embarrassing but maybe I'm not alone -- I always have a lot of trouble SDI'ing DK's up-b. -_-

 

[infiniteV115]

If it's on the ground (including grounded invincicopters like the one on YI:B), SDI up cause DK has to stay on the ground.
If it's an aerial upB, SDI down cause aerial upBs are always rising.

If it's the aerial invincicopter (the one where he slips off an edge and is in the air, but is falling during his upB) I shouldn't have to tell you how to SDI that because you should never be getting hit by it. That **** is strong. It's powerful. And it causes all kinds of destruction.

 

[bubbaking]

Wait, the aerial invincicopter is stronger than a regular grounded upB?

 

[infiniteV115]

Lol no I don't think so, it's just really scary cause of the super armor and minimal cooldown and whatnot

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Also, lol @ 30%. It's called SDI dude.

Pretty sure the SDI modifier is miniscule, but I could be wrong.

 

[infiniteV115]

It's probably smaller than x1 but it's still easy to SDI down. It doesn't have much vertical range in the first place, and the fact that DK is rising makes it easier.

 

[-LzR-]

But shouldn't the first hit simply hit you out of it? The first his is the strong one. You usually don't get hit by it so you get stuck in the weaker parts, but OoS it would simply send you away.

 

[bubbaking]

Maybe not at low %'s......

 

[Grim Tuesday]

This is embarrassing but maybe I'm not alone -- I always have a lot of trouble SDI'ing DK's up-b. -_-

At least you don't have to deal with my crisis.

SDI sends Jigglypuff so far away that she loses most stage control and can't punish the up-b if she SDIs it.

But if she doesn't SDI it, she can punish afterwards.

So every time I get hit I have to decide whether it's worth it or not >_>

 

[-LzR-]

I only consider worth it if you can rest for the kill. If not, SDI the hell out. Why are you even getting hit by that move in the first place?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Nah you can get really hard punishes if you can throw DK off-stage (either right off the bat, or string an aerial into a grab) - cause bair out-ranges up-b. It can be worth it even without Rest.

You're getting hit by it in the first place because it's fast and has a big hitbox...

 

[-LzR-]

It's only fast in the air and you shouldn't really be in that position against an aerial DK. On the ground there are far worse problems like his dsmash and tilts that require uber precision and hard reads to get through for a 30% combo that DK doesn't give a **** about.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I know this MU better than anyone haha (second best player in my region is a DK), trust me, optimal Puff playstyle definitely lets her get hit by spinning kong

 

[infiniteV115]

^
But what if you both suck ***

 

[Luco]

^
But what if you both suck ***

Well there's a BR for a reason. I assumed that this place was for us silly bad players to conduct silly theory-craft. Thus why everyone who's not in the BR should not have their opinions taken seriously.

Bad logic, you see? There are plenty of good players not in the BR, maybe there are some bad players in the BR. Point is, whether we're good or bad, our opinions on it don't have to be discounted... some people know the MU info but just can't play it well in reality, you know what I mean? They just take it from what they've seen of good players and apply that IMO.

 

[-LzR-]

I know this MU better than anyone haha (second best player in my region is a DK), trust me, optimal Puff playstyle definitely lets her get hit by spinning kong

I just remembered there is an ancient video of my Puff vs DK in Youtube. Lmao good times, good times.
But just why would DK use upB against Puff? He can just use dsmash+tilts to really give Puff a hard time with ******** risk/reward ratio.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Mobility and duration.

infinitev115: money match me