Official Stage Legality Discussion: Stage Specific

[Life]

What specifically is wrong with Sirlin's definition of "scrub"? Considering the non-Sirlin definition AFAIK is basically synonymous with "noob".

(Kindly place your answer in Philosophical, that we aren't using the split is a pet peeve, sorry)

 

[Raziek]

I'll also add that a ban on Sharking would have to be discrete, warranted, and enforceable.

The only thing it MIGHT have is warranted.

You can't ban the tactic, so you have to ban either the stages that enable it, or the characters that perform it to "broken" degree. (the "warranted" section of ban criteria)

Banning a good 8-9 stages is not acceptable, when the tactic CLEARLY isn't even broken for any character besides MK.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

What specifically is wrong with Sirlin's definition of "scrub"? Considering the non-Sirlin definition AFAIK is basically synonymous with "noob".

(Kindly place your answer in Philosophical, that we aren't using the split is a pet peeve, sorry)

He doesn't make any distinction between a casual, a competitive/casual, and a competitive player. Immediately he places a derogatory term on a group which he truly doesn't fully understand.

A scrub is someone who doesn't play to win, by his definition. Then he goes about how a scrub tries to say a certain tactic is broken and tries to place arbitrary rules on himself to win.

Is a casual player trying to place arbitrary rules to win, no he's trying to play the game. He any call things cheap or unfair, but I don't doubt it with some people when they don't play the game competitively. Sirlin doesn't make any distinction of what kind of player he's talking about, he seems to hint at he's talking about competitive players but he doesn't clearly state what he's talking about.

If a competitive player is crying, "unfair" when it is a legit tactic, then he has a point.

He's also trying to label people who don't use the absolute best tactic as being a scrub, which many people apply this to character choice.

Is ESAM a scrub for using Pikachu? Is TKD a scrub for using Fox? Is Junebug a scrub for using Lucario?

How can he claim that people not using the best character is a scrub mentality when there are many many factors into why people use the characters they do. He shouldn't place a giant group label on people for using characters that aren't the best, or even for people that enter tournaments with low tiers.

Everyone has a reason they play this game, using a derogatory term to label them because they don't do what he says is absolutely rude. Just because what play to win or why they play the game isn't his style he shouldn't belittle or place a mark like that on them.

He comes off as a complete literary hack when he does it in his article.

/end pet peeve.

 

[fkacyan]

He's also trying to label people who don't use the absolute best tactic as being a scrub, which many people apply this to character choice.

Is ESAM a scrub for using Pikachu? Is TKD a scrub for using Fox? Is Junebug a scrub for using Lucario?

By definition, yes. Placing a restriction on your ability to win by using less versatile characters is definitely a scrub mentality. Of course, MUs as whatnot are far too complicated for us to know how viable each character actually is, wheras in classical fighters you can tell pretty easily. His article wasn't written with Smash in mind.

@Raziek: Circle camping is really only truly a broken tactic for a small subset of characters who can land the lead % hit without ever having to risk taking a hit themselves.

 

[-LzR-]

Thio just quit it. You are going far to extreme here. Brinstar is just a **** battlefield in lavafilled place and some goo stuff all over it which you can use strategically if you are good. Now that is not degenerate.

Circlecamping doesn't require skill or anything at all. Playing on Wario Ware is more competitive than circle camping, at least you can get lucky.

 

[ADHD]

Thio just quit it. You are going far to extreme here. Brinstar is just a **** battlefield in lavafilled place and some goo stuff all over it which you can use strategically if you are good. Now that is not degenerate.

Circlecamping doesn't require skill or anything at all. Playing on Wario Ware is more competitive than circle camping, at least you can get lucky.

Circle camping is hard to do, actually. Just being obnoxious.

 

[Life]

He doesn't make any distinction between a casual, a competitive/casual, and a competitive player. Immediately he places a derogatory term on a group which he truly doesn't fully understand.

A scrub is someone who doesn't play to win, by his definition. Then he goes about how a scrub tries to say a certain tactic is broken and tries to place arbitrary rules on himself to win.

Is a casual player trying to place arbitrary rules to win, no he's trying to play the game. He any call things cheap or unfair, but I don't doubt it with some people when they don't play the game competitively. Sirlin doesn't make any distinction of what kind of player he's talking about, he seems to hint at he's talking about competitive players but he doesn't clearly state what he's talking about.

If a competitive player is crying, "unfair" when it is a legit tactic, then he has a point.

He's also trying to label people who don't use the absolute best tactic as being a scrub, which many people apply this to character choice.

Is ESAM a scrub for using Pikachu? Is TKD a scrub for using Fox? Is Junebug a scrub for using Lucario?

How can he claim that people not using the best character is a scrub mentality when there are many many factors into why people use the characters they do. He shouldn't place a giant group label on people for using characters that aren't the best, or even for people that enter tournaments with low tiers.

Everyone has a reason they play this game, using a derogatory term to label them because they don't do what he says is absolutely rude. Just because what play to win or why they play the game isn't his style he shouldn't belittle or place a mark like that on them.

He comes off as a complete literary hack when he does it in his article.

/end pet peeve.

Sirlin makes it quite obvious he's talking about competitive, tournament-level gaming. After all, the title is "Playing to Win". If he were talking about casual sports/games, the adage "winning isn't everything" would take precedence, no?

People who don't play to win in a competitive setting due to mental blocks/misguided sense of "honor" are scrubs. To put it another way, scrubs generally try to ban a tactic via rules instead of learning how to defeat it.

If I'm playing ALLITEMSTEMPLEONLY Brawl with some friends at a party, that's not a competitive setting and thus I'm not a scrub for wanting to do so. Suggesting that it's a good tournament standard, however, is quite scrubby.

Sirlin also isn't really insulting scrubs ad hominem--it's more of a "this is a mental obstacle you must overcome if you want to win" attitude--granted, I haven't read the article in a while, but that's the tone I remember getting from it. It's others that have turned "scrub", like "noob", into an insult.

Also, ESAM/TKD/Junebug aren't scrubs because they're using the best characters.

Wait, what?

Yes, I just called Pikachu, Fox, and Lucario the best characters.. in a game with MK in it.

See, ESAM/TKD/Junebug could totally use MK if they wished, and probably could do well as MK even now (TKD actually does for Fox's bad matchups). But they do BETTER as their characters than they would MK barring bad matchups (again, TKD versus Pikachu).

Now, if they put as much effort into their MKs as they do their actual mains, perhaps they'd do better, but they certainly wouldn't have the same notoriety they do now. Also, Pika/Fox go very close with MK (at least right now), the dominant force in the meta () and all three have their own unique good and bad matchups (for example, many Sonics consider Lucario harder than MK; Espy is actually learning Wolf since apparently Wolf does better in the Lucario matchup than Sonic). When you add in the factor that everybody and their mother who has played in tournaments knows the MK matchup, but ESAM is the only top-placing Pika AFAIK, likewise with TKD's Fox (Lucario's a little better about that IIRC), you have an alternate strategy that people have no idea how to combat.

(Also, when taken to its logical extreme, ADHD is a scrub for not using MK. Didn't stop him from winning at DC.)

tl;dr the three you mentioned are not scrubs as they do better as characters not named MK, their characters have advantages which cannot be gained playing MK (matchup inexperience, aura, zero-deaths [maybe not those three but ICs at least]) and switching to full-on MK would be a ton of effort for very little gain (I see ESAM [or Espy ] winning at Dallas if that says anything). Sure, at the extreme, it's very slightly scrubby, but not nearly so badly that it can't be overcome.

And if everyone played MK, the game would be much less competitive as you'd only have to know one matchup.

@ADHD: Circle camping's difficulty is inversely proportional to the size of the loop. CCing on Temple/Spear Pillar: easy. CCing on Summit: more difficult. CCing on LM: good luck.

@Thio: No, circling is overpowered for all characters who can outspeed others. Sonic et.al. only need to play carefully enough that they get a small % lead and then just take off. Basically, one or two early hits = three zero-deaths. It's simply easier to get that one hit as Fox.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

By definition, yes. Placing a restriction on your ability to win by using less versatile characters is definitely a scrub mentality. Of course, MUs as whatnot are far too complicated for us to know how viable each character actually is, wheras in classical fighters you can tell pretty easily. His article wasn't written with Smash in mind.

@Raziek: Circle camping is really only truly a broken tactic for a small subset of characters who can land the lead % hit without ever having to risk taking a hit themselves.

Fair enough.

Sirlin makes it quite obvious he's talking about competitive, tournament-level gaming. After all, the title is "Playing to Win". If he were talking about casual sports/games, the adage "winning isn't everything" would take precedence, no?

People who don't play to win in a competitive setting due to mental blocks/misguided sense of "honor" are scrubs. To put it another way, scrubs generally try to ban a tactic via rules instead of learning how to defeat it.

If I'm playing ALLITEMSTEMPLEONLY Brawl with some friends at a party, that's not a competitive setting and thus I'm not a scrub for wanting to do so. Suggesting that it's a good tournament standard, however, is quite scrubby.

Sirlin also isn't really insulting scrubs ad hominem--it's more of a "this is a mental obstacle you must overcome if you want to win" attitude--granted, I haven't read the article in a while, but that's the tone I remember getting from it. It's others that have turned "scrub", like "noob", into an insult.

Also, ESAM/TKD/Junebug aren't scrubs because they're using the best characters.

Wait, what?

Yes, I just called Pikachu, Fox, and Lucario the best characters.. in a game with MK in it.

See, ESAM/TKD/Junebug could totally use MK if they wished, and probably could do well as MK even now (TKD actually does for Fox's bad matchups). But they do BETTER as their characters than they would MK barring bad matchups (again, TKD versus Pikachu).

Now, if they put as much effort into their MKs as they do their actual mains, perhaps they'd do better, but they certainly wouldn't have the same notoriety they do now. Also, Pika/Fox go very close with MK (at least right now), the dominant force in the meta () and all three have their own unique good and bad matchups (for example, many Sonics consider Lucario harder than MK; Espy is actually learning Wolf since apparently Wolf does better in the Lucario matchup than Sonic). When you add in the factor that everybody and their mother who has played in tournaments knows the MK matchup, but ESAM is the only top-placing Pika AFAIK, likewise with TKD's Fox (Lucario's a little better about that IIRC), you have an alternate strategy that people have no idea how to combat.

(Also, when taken to its logical extreme, ADHD is a scrub for not using MK. Didn't stop him from winning at DC.)

tl;dr the three you mentioned are not scrubs as they do better as characters not named MK, their characters have advantages which cannot be gained playing MK (matchup inexperience, aura, zero-deaths [maybe not those three but ICs at least]) and switching to full-on MK would be a ton of effort for very little gain (I see ESAM [or Espy ] winning at Dallas if that says anything). Sure, at the extreme, it's very slightly scrubby, but not nearly so badly that it can't be overcome.

And if everyone played MK, the game would be much less competitive as you'd only have to know one matchup.

@ADHD: Circle camping's difficulty is inversely proportional to the size of the loop. CCing on Temple/Spear Pillar: easy. CCing on Summit: more difficult. CCing on LM: good luck.

@Thio: No, circling is overpowered for all characters who can outspeed others. Sonic et.al. only need to play carefully enough that they get a small % lead and then just take off. Basically, one or two early hits = three zero-deaths. It's simply easier to get that one hit as Fox.

I agree with picking who you play best with is playing to win if you work to make someone the best person you can play, so they aren't scrubs.

 

[PMC66]

see the problem with the definition of the term scrub applies to the whole gamer community anyone who says your a scrub is simply more of a scrub the non scrubs are people who don't have anything to do with video games and have an actual life. Tho i will admit the smash community is probably the most imature least supportive childish and most trollable community of any video game inb4some1rages.

i think some people need to watch tourney tard golf it sums up this communities attitudes incredibly well http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zF_sEj3FlYo

get a consistant rule set before you call anyone a scrub good day

 

[Ghostbone]

see the problem with the definition of the term scrub applies to the whole gamer community anyone who says your a scrub is simply more of a scrub the non scrubs are people who don't have anything to do with video games and have an actual life. Tho i will admit the smash community is probably the most imature least supportive childish and most trollable community of any video game inb4some1rages.

i think some people need to watch tourney tard golf it sums up this communities attitudes incredibly well http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zF_sEj3FlYo

get a consistant rule set before you call anyone a scrub good day

Do you even know the definition of a scrub?
Oh and that video is a joke, if you didn't know.

 

[ぱみゅ]

In any case, why was that even posted here?

 

[xDD-Master]

Was Rumble Falls ever Legal in a Tournament?
If not: Reasons xD?

It seems to be a mix of RC & JJ to me xd
But what is broken about it?

Stalling? Hm
Slow characters get a huge disadvantage? :O

Just asking for official reasons xD

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

There was some independent testing, and all testing came to the same few conclusions:
-The "hazards" (spikes) are a complete and utter non-issue
-Running away from slower characters is borderline broken in most cases; like, REALLY strong-the stage allows you to run circles around your opponent, kinda like Big Blue-it's not completely obvious, but it's there.
-The "Choke Point" (where the stage comes ridiculously close) is massively broken and degenerate.

The stage could potentially be a tier 3 counterpick if it wasn't for that **** choke point.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I think how much % a hazard does along with how well it kills you does matter.

 

[UberMario]

The hazards are way more degenerate than the choke point.

On the rare occasions I've played there in friendlies, we either just went through it ASAP or sharked the platforms until the other guy either shielded or went up a level. Kills are way too easy to get by combo'ing or simply throwing your opponent into the spikes, especially the one before the long ladder (Before the choke point), and there is also the issue of having so many walls and walkoffs, especially the former.

 

[marthsword]

YI: Pipes. Broken strategies? Go.

 

[UberMario]

None that I've noticed, though the killzone on the left side is close enough to kill around 40% from offstage if you get hit hard, which makes planking a higher risk/reward (though at the same time, stage spikes are pretty much non-existant unless you're really high on damage) I've found the planking to be a bit weaker due to the slope next to it and the lack of a lip, however. Most of the action usually takes place in the center though from when I've played though so that really hasn't come up.


Despite the issue (of sorts), I wouldn't call anything about this stage "broken".

 

[T-block]

everyone go try something right now

jump into the death spike on rumble falls at 999% (the percent doesn't matter...i think it's set knockback). hold R once you're hit... don't DI the hit. continue holding R and tap down once you hit the floor.

congrats you've just survived the spike.

this is all theorycraft, but it's not unreasonable to say that even in a real match, you should NEVER die from the spike - even if you get hit. this is not about teching insanely high knockback... the timing window to survive it is HUGE if you know how.

also, i'm curious as to how the existance of a chokepoint can be considered "degenerate", but that once again ties in to how nobody really knows the meaning of degenerate anymore.

 

[UberMario]

I'll try it in a few, but I'm pretty sure the direction it sends you isn't fixed, I could have sworn that I've KO'd people by throwing them into it and having them bounce to the left, but it's been a while so I'm not 100% sure.

 

[Steam]

None that I've noticed, though the killzone on the left side is close enough to kill around 40% from offstage if you get hit hard, which makes planking a higher risk/reward (though at the same time, stage spikes are pretty much non-existant unless you're really high on damage) I've found the planking to be a bit weaker due to the slope next to it and the lack of a lip, however. Most of the action usually takes place in the center though from when I've played though so that really hasn't come up.


Despite the issue (of sorts), I wouldn't call anything about this stage "broken".

D3 can also CG characters up the slope, Olimar in general on one of the slopes is basically impossible to approach :/

 

[T-block]

the trajectory can be DI'd

if you DI down, you'll bounce off the wall and fly to the left - you'll have to time the tech if you DI down. if you don't DI or DI up, you'll land on the floor above the wall and slide. your momentum can then be halted by a spotdodge or a roll.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

everyone go try something right now

jump into the death spike on rumble falls at 999% (the percent doesn't matter...i think it's set knockback). hold R once you're hit... don't DI the hit. continue holding R and tap down once you hit the floor.

congrats you've just survived the spike.

this is all theorycraft, but it's not unreasonable to say that even in a real match, you should NEVER die from the spike - even if you get hit. this is not about teching insanely high knockback... the timing window to survive it is HUGE if you know how.

also, i'm curious as to how the existance of a chokepoint can be considered "degenerate", but that once again ties in to how nobody really knows the meaning of degenerate anymore.

What is the line exactly for too far?

 

[T-block]

what do you mean? the word "degenerate" has been thrown around so much lately that i'm pretty sure it has come to be used in contexts where the original meaning would not apply.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

That's probably because the word "degenerate" is entirely subjective.

Just because someone thinks Battlefield leads to degenerate gameplay doesn't mean they are using the word incorrectly.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

what do you mean? the word "degenerate" has been thrown around so much lately that i'm pretty sure it has come to be used in contexts where the original meaning would not apply.

Where do you draw the line?

1/2, 2/3rds, 3/4ths, 4/5ths, for nonviable.

 

[Tesh]

D3 can also CG characters up the slope, Olimar in general on one of the slopes is basically impossible to approach :/

I'm pretty sure both of these were proven to be false.

If I recall DDD can only CG like 6 characters up the slope? 3 of which he can already infinite, 2 of them are Link and Ganondorf , the last being Lucario (also a pretty easy matchup for DDD right?) Most characters land and can spotdodge/roll before he can regrab.

If I recall though, Pikachu can CG people really hard on this stage because of the slope, but its still percent dependant.

Also I think you will find its still tough for Olimar to shieldgrab fast fallen aerials because of the mechanics of the slope. People REALLY should check it out before assuming that Olimar has unbeatable walkoff camping on this stage.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I think CO18 said the 6 only up the slope was false, that you could CG the cast up the slope - Luigi.

 

[Tesh]

So no one has solid proof one way or another?

 

[Steam]

I've tested it. you can get tons of characters.

Either way I don't think the point of counterpicking is to give certain characters an automatic win. Hence why if stages like this are legal there should be 2 bans at least.

I mean with stages like this you can CP "trap" certain characters to either switch to a secondary while the opponent stays their main, or face a basically unwinnable matchup with your main vs. D3. Which is not the purpose of CPing.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I think how much % a hazard does along with how well it kills you does matter.

Try "never kills you" and 0%? Seriously, you just don't ****ing get hit by it. And when you do, the window for surviving it is GIGANTIC.

The hazards are way more degenerate than the choke point.

On the rare occasions I've played there in friendlies, we either just went through it ASAP or sharked the platforms until the other guy either shielded or went up a level. Kills are way too easy to get by combo'ing or simply throwing your opponent into the spikes, especially the one before the long ladder (Before the choke point), and there is also the issue of having so many walls and walkoffs, especially the former.

Lolno. The walkoffs could be a problem, but really? try just sitting in the choke point and spamming something like MK dsmash, or MK jab, or something like that.

D3 can also CG characters up the slope, Olimar in general on one of the slopes is basically impossible to approach :/

DDD can CG 6 chars up the slope. Of those:
-3 are **** tiers that get absolutely wrecked by ganon no matter what
-1 is DK (I hope I don't have to explain why this can be ignored)
-1 is Wario, who should NEVER get grabbed by DDD. EVER.
-1 is Lucario, who... okay, lucario is kinda ****ed. xD

Also, oli on the slopes? Mindgame him. He has an answer for every angle, but they all share one trait-they're laggy as ****.

 

[Steam]

not really... being uphill just makes grounded oli better. and he's already the best character in the game on stage...

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Never said it to that specfic hazard BPC.

Also someone should confirm the slope issue. Some say only 6 characters others, some being top level DDDs, say it's most of the cast.

 

[T-block]

Where do you draw the line?

1/2, 2/3rds, 3/4ths, 4/5ths, for nonviable.

What do those fractions even mean? I don't understand what you're asking lol

I correct BPC EVERY TIME I see him say only 6 characters can be CG'd up the slope. I really wish someone would test and confirm for sure, but at the moment I'm leading towards more than just those 6 being CG'able. I believe AA was the one who came up with that result in the first place, and I'd be interested to hear the inputs used, if he can recall.

MK sitting at the chokepoint and spamming d-smash is INCREDIBLY easy to beat. Jab even more so.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

What do those fractions even mean? I don't understand what you're asking lol

I correct BPC EVERY TIME I see him say only 6 characters can be CG'd up the slope. I really wish someone would test and confirm for sure, but at the moment I'm leading towards more than just those 6 being CG'able. I believe AA was the one who came up with that result in the first place, and I'd be interested to hear the inputs used, if he can recall.

MK sitting at the chokepoint and spamming d-smash is INCREDIBLY easy to beat. Jab even more so.

He's talking about how degenerate the stage has to be to be banned.

1/2 degenerate, 1/3 degenerate, etc...

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

What do those fractions even mean? I don't understand what you're asking lol

I correct BPC EVERY TIME I see him say only 6 characters can be CG'd up the slope. I really wish someone would test and confirm for sure, but at the moment I'm leading towards more than just those 6 being CG'able. I believe AA was the one who came up with that result in the first place, and I'd be interested to hear the inputs used, if he can recall.

MK sitting at the chokepoint and spamming d-smash is INCREDIBLY easy to beat. Jab even more so.

You do? I never notice. What is the correct number? Who else gets CG'd? Lemme have some names here plz.

And regarding to the choke point... Linkshot?

 

[T-block]

He's talking about how degenerate the stage has to be to be banned.

1/2 degenerate, 1/3 degenerate, etc...

How can you assign a fraction to that lol... that doesn't even make sense. Unless you're talking about stage timings... the spike is there for 2% of the stage, so it's 2% degenerate? lol

You do? I never notice. What is the correct number? Who else gets CG'd? Lemme have some names here plz.

And regarding to the choke point... Linkshot?

Yes I do haha... unfortunately, I don't know the number myself, but I'm pretty sure I've seen ROB CG'd. Even Marth, who is pretty hard to CG, has been claimed to be CG'able.

The choke point... remember that being on top of a platform with your opponent below you is usually a bad thing. In Rumble Falls it's not as bad because your opponent is forced to move and cannot stay below to pressure you forever, but I doubt that getting to the choke point first is going to be any sort of massive advantage. I would be open to entertaining the idea that is actually is an advantage on this stage (although I'm still skeptical of that), but I've never seen a compelling argument for its being BROKEN.

EDIT: Disclaimer - I'm not saying that the 6 are wrong per se, just that we should stop bringing up those 6 as fact

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Fair enough... We need more frame perfect testing. You're smash lab, you can do this stuff, right?

 

[Steam]

I remember getting it to work on RoB and Snake.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I seem to recall 6 as my result and did the testing in frame by frame. It would be a pain to dig out those old posts, but I was using a particular timing of DDD running chaingrab that I beileve is frame perfect. I'd prefer if we're going to try to discredit it that it would be with other frame by frame testing with DDD's throw timing recorded to the frame instead of "I got it to work on X character" when the just as likely response is "they weren't trying to escape properly".

Here is my DDD running chaingrab timing:

Down throw -> buffered dash
Input forward + shield on frame 5 of dash (the second frame of the smoke cloud and the frame the dash sound is made), continue to hold
Once the shield graphic appears, release forward (optional)
On the third frame of the shield graphic, input A (you should still be holding shield)

 

[T-block]

I think the more relevant information we need from you is how each character is supposed to escape, AA ^_^