Official Stage Legality Discussion: Stage Specific

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

When it comes to being able to say "I'm good at winning games in smash"? It will. When it comes to credibility in fields such as understanding game design philosophy, constructing smart, competitive rulesets, and knowing which stages should be legal, it should never, on its own, be enough.

It proves you can apply it to the game.

If someone places consistently at a national level or large regional level it proves they have a good understanding of the game, there is no way a person who doesn't understand this game can place high.

You can study and research to help better your understanding, but if can't apply it properly, do you really understand it?

There are players who do place high and say some pretty absurd things, but the fact they can place high consistently proves that they truly to some level or degree understand the game better in some aspects better than some below then that don;t place as well.

So if someone claims they know the game and don't prove it, well you can understand why people would question how well you know the game.

Sorry just trying to give a more level headed idea of how placing in the game very much matters in making rule-sets and etc.

 

[Raziek]

I place in my region (inb4yourregionsucks) and I support many of the same ideas BPC does.

Why do you guys insist that his ideas can't be credible, even with minimal tournament experience?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I never said he wasn't credible I said there are reason legit reasons why people trust ADHD and other higher level players.

There is a reason why the BBR asks for results of placement when you apply to join it, because it's applicable to your understanding of the game.

 

[fkacyan]

Because it drastically REDUCES game depth.

Come on Thio, you're better than that.

Ad hominem AND blantantly wrong arguments?

Wait, so now you're about limiting the game now to promote balance instead of that "We'll let the most versatile character win"?

So can we start banning stages that are MK wins?

 

[Raziek]

No, Thio, read my other post. (replying to ADHD)

Those stages are strong for MK, but not because of a degenerate tactic, instead, as a result of his character traits COMBINED with the stage.

MK breaks a lot of things (he already has RC and Brinstar, even in conservative lists), so I fail to see what the problem is with giving him "more options".

Of course, I advocate his banning anyway, but that still doesn't undermine any of my arguments.

 

[fkacyan]

No, Thio, read my other post. (replying to ADHD)

Those stages are strong for MK, but not because of a degenerate tactic, instead, as a result of his character traits COMBINED with the stage.

MK breaks a lot of things (he already has RC and Brinstar, even in conservative lists), so I fail to see what the problem is with giving him "more options".

Of course, I advocate his banning anyway, but that still doesn't undermine any of my arguments.

So what does 'degenerate' mean then?

Circle camping is limited to Fox and MAYBE Falco. There are very few characters with both ranged attacks and fast horizontal airspeed to take advantage of most 'circles' with the exclusion of Spear Pillar. So we're really only talking about one or two characters here (In Melee circle camping was essentially limited to Fox). In other words, it's character traits COMBINED with the stage. How is this different than Meta Knight?

If degenerate means, as you imply, 'removes game depth,' then ANY stage that gives an inordinate amount of advantage to any given character does so, and thus should be banned.

Either allow stages that have circle camping or ban stages that essentially give a character a free win. Taking the middle ground is just hypocrisy.

 

[Raziek]

So what does 'degenerate' mean then?

Circle camping is limited to Fox and MAYBE Falco. There are very few characters with both ranged attacks and fast horizontal airspeed to take advantage of most 'circles' with the exclusion of Spear Pillar. So we're really only talking about one or two characters here (In Melee circle camping was essentially limited to Fox). In other words, it's character traits COMBINED with the stage. How is this different than Meta Knight?

If degenerate means, as you imply, 'removes game depth,' then ANY stage that gives an inordinate amount of advantage to any given character does so, and thus should be banned.

Either allow stages that have circle camping or ban stages that essentially give a character a free win. Taking the middle ground is just hypocrisy.

Degenerate means the game devolves specifically TO that tactic, and if your character cannot perform it or performs it worse than your opponent's, you lose. Planking is degenerate. Circle camping is degenerate. Wall-infinites are to SOME EXTENT, degenerate (usually requires a permanent wall).

Circle camping is most certainly NOT limited to Fox and Falco. Consider specifically, the hard circle stages. (Temple, Spear Pillar) These are stages where there is a LITERAL circle in which to circle camping. If your character is faster than the opponent's, and you gain the lead, the game is over, because all you have to do now is run in a circle. The game degenerates to gaining the lead and circle camping for the rest of the match.

When you consider "light circle" stages, I believe most of them SHOULD be legal.

I advocate Mansion, I advocate Distant Planet.

Stages where light circling becomes an issue are often those that have some other interfering quality. Big Blue, for example, is EXTRAORDINARILY different than the majority of stages in the game, and can very quickly take a stock for a slight mistake. Combined with light circling, I feel the stage warrants a ban.

MK's character traits do not come down to something as simple as running away, which takes literally MINIMAL skill.

There are very few stages that give a character a "free win". The only character where you could ARGUABLY make that justification is MK, and I don't believe you should ban stages that are otherwise ok, so you should ban the character. (inb4Dededeandshadowmoses)

An example like Dedede on Shadow Moses is different, because it involves the extremely simple and degenerate tactic of wall-infinites, which forces you to pick a character who can't be CG'd, or you lose.

 

[fkacyan]

Degenerate means the game devolves specifically TO that tactic, and if your character cannot perform it or performs it worse than your opponent's, you lose. Planking is degenerate. Circle camping is degenerate. Wall-infinites are to SOME EXTENT, degenerate (usually requires a permanent wall).

Circle camping is most certainly NOT limited to Fox and Falco. Consider specifically, the hard circle stages. (Temple, Spear Pillar) These are stages where there is a LITERAL circle in which to circle camping. If your character is faster than the opponent's, and you gain the lead, the game is over, because all you have to do now is run in a circle. The game degenerates to gaining the lead and circle camping for the rest of the match.

When you consider "light circle" stages, I believe most of them SHOULD be legal.

I advocate Mansion, I advocate Distant Planet.

Stages where light circling becomes an issue are often those that have some other interfering quality. Big Blue, for example, is EXTRAORDINARILY different than the majority of stages in the game, and can very quickly take a stock for a slight mistake. Combined with light circling, I feel the stage warrants a ban.

MK's character traits do not come down to something as simple as running away, which takes literally MINIMAL skill.

There are very few stages that give a character a "free win". The only character where you could ARGUABLY make that justification is MK, and I don't believe you should ban stages that are otherwise ok, so you should ban the character. (inb4Dededeandshadowmoses)

An example like Dedede on Shadow Moses is different, because it involves the extremely simple and degenerate tactic of wall-infinites, which forces you to pick a character who can't be CG'd, or you lose.

So RC and Brinstar essentially being "Pick MK or lose" isn't degenerate?

 

[SuSa]

No. I've seen videos of him play. He's lost to a Lucas in tourney with MK. This is assuredly not the case.

I'm glad the point about circle camping is still being brought up, because that is just as legitimate a tactic as any other form of stage control, and why we don't reward that form of versatility is beyond me.

Spoiler

Wait this goes in Philosophical whoops

.

M2K lost to a Ness in tournament as MK.

He must not know how to play this game.

Ad hominem is bad.

So RC and Brinstar essentially being "Pick MK or lose" isn't degenerate?

Brinstar has Wario and a few other characters (Wow Jugglypuff is actually viable here)

I bring MK's to RC as Snake.... and win.

:leek:

 

[Raziek]

No, because it ISN'T pick MK or lose, and even if it WAS, it's NOT because of one specific tactic, it's because MK is REALLY ****ING GOOD, and his moveset (AS A WHOLE, no picking on Dedede's D-throw) meshes absurdly well with the stage.

MK's character traits do not come down to something as simple as running away, which takes literally MINIMAL skill.

There are very few stages that give a character a "free win". The only character where you could ARGUABLY make that justification is MK, and I don't believe you should ban stages that are otherwise ok, so you should ban the character. (inb4Dededeandshadowmoses)

Can't you read?

 

[fkacyan]

No, because it ISN'T pick MK or lose, and even if it WAS, it's NOT because of one specific tactic, it's because MK is REALLY ****ING GOOD, and his moveset (AS A WHOLE, no picking on Dedede's D-throw) meshes absurdly well with the stage.

Can't you read?

Except that circle camping is character traits meshing with the stage as well, with a very specific subset of characters. I don't think you realize how easy it is to stop 95% of the cast from circle camping. They simply aren't fast enough to do it.

 

[SuSa]

IMO Shadow Moses, even with the destroyable walls, is almost like a cave-of-live scenario. =\

Also due to Shadow Moses' layout, I'd argue you can circle camp pretty well by running between the left/right sides due to how big the gap is between floor1 and floor2.

If it weren't for the two destroyable walls, it'd be a perfectly fine and legal stage. (Because walkoffs aren't bad IMO... but it'd totally over centralize DDD or force you to be a character that cannot be CG'd.... so.. the stage would entirely focus around him)

You cannot make that argument with RC/Brinstar because while stupidly good, it's not broken and over centralizing.

EDIT:
@Thio
There is a nice fine line between "overcentralizing", "degenerate" and "stupidly good"

Overcentralizing = Do this or lose. SO FAR nothing in Brawl is really.. overcentralizing... nothings broken THAT MUCH.

Degenerate = The easy repeating of one tactic to win. (see: O. Sagat's fireball IIRC? That's why he's soft banned.. or was that Akuma? I forget. 99% sure it's O. Sagat)... anyways.. it's the repetition of something that I can **** up 80% of the time and my opponent is not allowed to make A SINGLE MISTAKE or they lose this is what circle camping does, as well as Shadow Moses' for DDD. If I can literally beat you because I can press Z, Dthrow, Dash, Repeat and I can **** up countless times and still win when you are playing near-flawlessly. That's degenerate.

Stupidly Good = Planking. Especially MK's planking.



:leek:

 

[Raziek]

Except that circle camping is character traits meshing with the stage as well, with a very specific subset of characters. I don't think you realize how easy it is to stop 95% of the cast from circle camping. They simply aren't fast enough to do it.

If you don't see why circle camping is degenerate, I'm done with you.

It's not a hard concept, and you drastically underestimate how easy it is to circle camp on the HARD CIRCLE stages, which is why they are banned.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Good luck catching Sonic on Temple.

 

[Raziek]

It's not even just Sonic. If you're faster, you win.

On Temple, even Marth can circle camp MARIO, OR LUIGI, or any other character who's just a bit slower than he is.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Yeah pretty much, Sonic and Fox come to my mind first because Fox has the speed and the camp abilities to gain the lead, while Sonic has far beyond the best running speed in the game.

 

[fkacyan]

If you don't see why circle camping is degenerate, I'm done with you.

It's not a hard concept, and you drastically underestimate how easy it is to circle camp on the HARD CIRCLE stages, which is why they are banned.

I'm not arguing that it's not degenerate. 8|

Now I remember why I stopped posting here.

 

[Raziek]

Then what exactly ARE you trying to argue?

I've already told you that MK being good on a stage NATURALLY (no degenerate tactics involved) isn't the same, which you haven't refuted.

You're picking on lesser points, and trying to take the argument to extremes, when you've been refuted at nearly every turn thus far.

 

[fkacyan]

Then what exactly ARE you trying to argue?

I've already told you that MK being good on a stage NATURALLY (no degenerate tactics involved) isn't the same, which you haven't refuted.

You're picking on lesser points, and trying to take the argument to extremes, when you've been refuted at nearly every turn thus far.

Sonic and Fox outspeeding every character by using their natural runspeed on large hard circle stages essentially guarantees the win (It doesn't always, because you can get the lead on them before they start running and prevent this). This is what you consider degenerate.

MK using his multiple jumps and safe uAir / using his fast and large-hitbox fsmash / upB (Natural traits) on Brinstar to abuse hitbox time-extension on the stage hurtboxes while remaining safe uses his natural character traits. Wario can also do this very effectively using his natural traits. These characters are almost unbeatable on Brinstar. You do not consider this degenerate.

What you call 'degenerate' is dangerously selective because in any given case somebody else can be better at it, and in both of the cases listed above, it is very easy to do at a base level and not choosing one of the characters in each scenario puts you at a massive disadvantage.

I guess I'm arguing that your definition of degenerate is bad, and you're using it to exclude stages you dislike and are prejudiced against while allowing equally bad stages to still be played.

 

[SuSa]

Sonic and Fox outspeeding every character by using their natural runspeed on large hard circle stages essentially guarantees the win (It doesn't always, because you can get the lead on them before they start running and prevent this). This is what you consider degenerate.

MK using his multiple jumps and safe uAir / using his fast and large-hitbox fsmash / upB (Natural traits) on Brinstar to abuse hitbox time-extension on the stage hurtboxes while remaining safe uses his natural character traits. Wario can also do this very effectively using his natural traits. These characters are almost unbeatable on Brinstar. You do not consider this degenerate.

What you call 'degenerate' is dangerously selective because in any given case somebody else can be better at it, and in both of the cases listed above, it is very easy to do at a base level and not choosing one of the characters in each scenario puts you at a massive disadvantage.

I guess I'm arguing that your definition of degenerate is bad, and you're using it to exclude stages you dislike and are prejudiced against while allowing equally bad stages to still be played.

Sonic and Fox can get the lead at any time, then camp. If they don't have the lead even one time during the entire match, the other player is simply better and should win. That doesn't mean the tactic isn't degenerate.

They aren't unbeatable on Brinstar and have been beaten often on these stages. Stupidly good? Yes. Degenerate? No.

Then ban Brinstar against those characters.

Brinstar is nowhere near as degenerate as Temple.

Also MK is a poor excuse to use for anything. He breaks the entire competitive system we use. Wario isn't anywhere nearly as bad as MK is on Brinstar.

Ban the character before you ban 10 stages because of said character.

:leek:

 

[Raziek]

"It's not even just Sonic. If you're faster, you win.

On Temple, even Marth can circle camp MARIO, OR LUIGI, or any other character who's just a bit slower than he is."

You're faster, you win, is not a deep game.

Neither is "You're MK, you win", but apparently people are willing to put up with this.

AGAIN, I WILL STATE CLEARLY WHY I THINK YOU ARE WRONG.

These degenerate tactics are result of one SPECIFIC action: Running in a circle, and wall-infinites.

Picking MK for Brinstar, or Wario for Brinstar, or Falco for Japes, or ICs for FD, etc etc etc is NOT DEGENERATE, that's called COUNTERPICKING. You still have to be able to PLAY the character to win, it's not just, hit once, run. BPC could beat M2K on temple if he picked Fox, that's how bad this is.

I really don't understand how you're missing the difference between

"If you do this one REALLY SIMPLE task, you win"

and

"This character is just really good on this stage."

Edit: Goin to bed, back sometime tomorrow.

 

[Albert.]

BPC we get to fvcking ignore your "refutements" and **** about green greens and other ****ty stages because in the end the common perception isthat they are ****ty, uncompetitive stages

You don't get to just change the physics of the game with your pretty little walls of texts.

You also have to accept other peoples' opinions instead of just bulldozing onward with logical fallacies and biased nonsense

I bet anybody with half a brain could write a compelling and convincing convincing argument for even a stage like 75 MM to be legalized, as long as they dress up their stupid little thesis's well enough, like you do.

die in a fire LOLLL

 

[ぱみゅ]

BPC we get to fvcking ignore your "refutements" and **** about green greens and other ****ty stages because in the end the common perception isthat they are ****ty, uncompetitive stages

The "common perception" isn't necessarily right.

You don't get to just change the physics of the game with your pretty little walls of texts.

You don't get to undestand them just by ignoring them.

You also have to accept other peoples' opinions instead of just bulldozing onward with logical fallacies and biased nonsense

Same goes for you.

I bet anybody with half a brain could write a compelling and convincing convincing argument for even a stage like 75 MM to be legalized, as long as they dress up their stupid little thesis's well enough, like you do.

die in a fire LOLLL

When people is debating, they aren't "dressing up" their arguments, they're explaining their points; the most it gets ignored, the most they're forced to put emphasis on them.
Anyways, most people just don't debate and ignore most well-done Walls of text because they wannot to hear that opinion. You still consider that a debate?

 

[fkacyan]

"It's not even just Sonic. If you're faster, you win.

On Temple, even Marth can circle camp MARIO, OR LUIGI, or any other character who's just a bit slower than he is."

You're faster, you win, is not a deep game.

Neither is "You're MK, you win", but apparently people are willing to put up with this.

AGAIN, I WILL STATE CLEARLY WHY I THINK YOU ARE WRONG.

These degenerate tactics are result of one SPECIFIC action: Running in a circle, and wall-infinites.

Picking MK for Brinstar, or Wario for Brinstar, or Falco for Japes, or ICs for FD, etc etc etc is NOT DEGENERATE, that's called COUNTERPICKING. You still have to be able to PLAY the character to win, it's not just, hit once, run. BPC could beat M2K on temple if he picked Fox, that's how bad this is.

I really don't understand how you're missing the difference between

"If you do this one REALLY SIMPLE task, you win"

and

"This character is just really good on this stage."

Edit: Goin to bed, back sometime tomorrow.

There isn't a difference. That is what you're not understanding here.

Theorycrafting is actually a relatively simple beast to distill down to a core concept and objective:

Find the most efficient (i.e. easy, resource non-intensive) method of maximizing your variable (in this case, chance of winning).

So, in the context of the above examples, we're looking at two cases:

- Winning on Hyrule Temple
- Winning on Brinstar

Traits that allow you to abuse those stages are not variables. You can clearly rank characters in their ability to abuse the stage traits. Thus, that makes certain characters better than others, and certain worse. This is obviously the case for ANY given stage. Of course, with these two in particular, there are characters that have a gross ability to abuse the stage beyond what other characters can possibly hope to match. This is degenerate; play on those stages would in theory devolve to character dittos of the best possible character for that stage.

The main problem here is MK, who SWF in general has set on some bizarre pedestal that is separate from all other characters in regards to theorycraft. Let's look at your above statements here:

"If you do this one REALLY SIMPLE task, you win"

Why can't this apply to MK? ZSS, Wario, and Marth can all do through-stage pokes and abuse hitbox-hurtbox extension mechanics, just not nearly as well. In a similar vein on Temple, Falco, MK, Ness, and a few others all have one of the traits necessary to abuse a hard circle the same way Fox does, but none of them do it nearly as well. And it's not like spamming upairs and throwing out fmashes behind a hurtbox wall is particularly hard.

"This character is just really good on this stage."

Fox is just really good on Hyrule Temple.

@SuSA: The CP system is deeply flawed anyways - In no competitive situation should a player be given a dramatic advantage over another - But you already have a thread on that, which actually made me happier than you could possibly know, so we can just ignore that particular point.

 

[ぱみゅ]

isn't about MK being better in Brinstar than Fox on Temple, I'm pretty sure their point is that at least, there is a battle.
Overcentralizing tactics avoids battles, and that kills the essence of the game: fighting your opponent

Spoiler

in a given stage

in order to defeat it.

 

[fkacyan]

isn't about MK being better in Brinstar than Fox on Temple, I'm pretty sure their point is that at least, there is a battle.
Overcentralizing tactics avoids battles, and that kills the essence of the game: fighting your opponent

Spoiler

in a given stage

in order to defeat it.

I'm pretty sure the objective of the game is to win, not to win in a way that makes people happy.

 

[SuSa]

Like I stated though.

Brinstar for MK is just stupidly good but not quite degenerate. Snake's can pull off the win, Wario's can pull off the win, hell I've seen a Jigglypuff pull of the win (and only on Brinstar.. lulz)

Yes, he can abuse the **** out of the stage. But MK can abuse the **** out of any stage. He breaks stages, and should never be used as evidence as to why a stage causes degenerative play.

If for instance Wario or Jigglypuff could break Brinstar as badly as MK could, I agree it's leading to a degenerate tactic (like what DDD does to Shadow Moses)

Degenerate tactics let you constantly make mistakes but force your opponent to play flawlessly in order to win.

If you're planking on Brinstar, you have to avoid lava, your opponent, and to some degree the stage shifting a bit when certain parts are broken - etc. It's not a sure win or degenerate. It's just extremely gay.

On the other hand, DDD has a near 100% guarenteed win against nearly 1/2 the cast using no more than 2 moves on Shadow Moses. He can spam grab and just dthrow all day. Bust the wall? Cool, he can walk-off CG you. Leave the wall? He has a wall infinite, 300% then uthrow.

See the comparison? Planking on Brinstar is really, really gay but it is not comparable to circle camping on Temple or DDD on SMI Sorry.

Temple turns into "Pick a character faster than your opponents character, get lead. RUN. That's it. There is no strategy other than completely avoid all possible conflict by outmaneuvering your opponents character.

:leek:

 

[ぱみゅ]

I'm pretty sure the objective of the game is to win, not to win in a way that makes people happy.

If people do not enjoy a game, why to play it?
Money? just work, at least your money is guaranteed.

 

[Albert.]

Perception IS reality though

have you not heard that phrase?



THEORYBROS UP IN this thread

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Rainbow Cruise should be banned

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

Rainbow Cruise should be banned

Who are you and what have you done with BPC?

 

[Life]

Rainbow Cruise should be banned

Silly brawl- wifi player doesn't know what he's talking about

Spoiler

password change, bro

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Stupid german people. STAY AWAY FROM MY ACCOUNT!!!

RC <3<3<3<3<3

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

lolwow, seriously?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

lolwow, seriously?

They got to my computer when I left it unattended. xD

 

[Raziek]

“It’s Too Good!”
Only in the most extreme, rare cases should something be banned because it is “too good.” This will be the most common type of ban requested by players, and almost all of their requests will be foolish. Banning a tactic simply because it is “the best” isn’t even warranted. That only reduces the game to all the “second best” tactics, which isn’t necessarily any better of a game than the original game. In fact, it’s often worse!
The only reasonable case to ban something because it is “too good” is when that tactic completely dominates the entire game, to the exclusion of other tactics. It is possible, though very rare, that removing an element of the game that is not only “the best” but also “ten times better than anything else in the game” results in a better game. I emphasize that is extremely rare. The most common case is that the player requesting the ban doesn’t fully grasp that the game is, in fact, not all about that one tactic. He should win several tournaments using mainly this tactic to prove his point. Another, far rarer possibility is that he’s right. The game really is shallow and centered on one thing (whether that one thing is a bug or by design is irrelevant). In that case, the best course of action is usually to abandon the game and play one of the hundreds of other readily available good games in the world.
Only in the ultra-rare case that the player is right and the game is worth saving and the game without the ultra-tactic is a ten times better game—only then is the notion even worth fighting for. And even in this case, it may take time for the game to mature enough for a great percentage of the best players and tournament organizers to realize that tactic should, indeed, be banned. Before an official ban takes place, there can also be something called “soft ban.” Let’s look at an example. (goes on to talk about Akuma from SFII)

Circle camping is TOO GOOD, now kindly cease and desist, Thio. They're NOT. the same. Since we cannot ban circle camping DISCRETELY, we must ban stages that enable a hard circle.
​

 

[SuSa]

Holy ****, I just learned what to do with Brawl.

The game really is shallow and centered on one thing (whether that one thing is a bug or by design is irrelevant). In that case, the best course of action is usually to abandon the game and play one of the hundreds of other readily available good games in the world.

:leek:

 

[fkacyan]

Circle camping is TOO GOOD, now kindly cease and desist, Thio. They're NOT. the same. Since we cannot ban circle camping DISCRETELY, we must ban stages that enable a hard circle.
​

And poking 100% safely from underneath a stage with a hitbox buffer isn't too good?

In both cases it is a tactic that is very good, and the characters that make the stages truly bannable are the best at said tactic. Attributing the tactic to just MK doesn't mean it's not the tactic.

Also, please don't quote Sirlin in regards to Brawl. All that does is show that we should be playing Melee.

 

[SuSa]

I can go underneath the stage and hit you. At least, a large majority of the cast can actually do this. Many have projectiles, many can just be higher than underneath the stage (stand on a platform if the stage is an issue)

It's a very good tactic, but circle camping is degenerate to gameplay. If you scrooge or w/e, I just have to hop up on a platform. Now you have to get back on top of the stage to hit me.

Puts me in a bad position? Arguably.

Lava also interrupts the scrooging.

You can scrooge on practically any stage. It's called planking, and it's like 99% safe.

:leek:

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Serlin's has good logic but he has a couple flaws in that book, definition of a scrub being a big one.

He defiantly has sound logic, I just don't think meat riding everything he says is a good idea.