Official Stage Legality Discussion: Stage Specific

[Amazing Ampharos]

This thread is to discuss the legality of specific stages in Super Smash Brothers Brawl. Examples of things that might be discussed in this topic would be "Delfino Plaza is a good starter" or "Distant Planet should be banned".

Under standard tournament procedure, stages fall into one of three categories:

Starter stage: A starter stage is a stage that is eligible to be played in the first game of a tournament set.

Counterpick stage: A counterpick stage is a stage that is legal for tournament play but not eligible to be played in the first game of a tournament set.

Banned stage: A banned stage is a stage that may only be played in a tournament at the agreement of both players. Some tournaments disallow such agreements.

Now as follows are the stage relevant portions of the BBR Rule Set 3.0, which is current as of August 3, 2010.

Set format (In Order of Procedure):

1. Opponents make their character select screen choices for the first match. *

2. Opponents start the stage striking procedure.

The stage striking order changes depending on the number of stages allowed. When reading this order, “1” is player 1 and “2” is player 2. The optimal striking orders are as follows:

* 3 Stages: 2-1
* 5 Stages: 1-2-2-1
* 7 Stages: 1-1-2-2-2-1
* 9 Stages: 1-1-1-2-2-2-2-1

3. Each player may announce one stage to be banned for counterpicks of the set.

4. The first game is played, using the stage chosen during step 2.

5. The loser of the previous match announces the next match's stage from either the Starter Stage List or the Counter Stage List. **

6. The winner of the previous match chooses their character.

7. The loser of the previous match chooses their character.

8. Repeat steps 5-7 for all proceeding matches.

*Double blind character selection may be called for the first match. Also, the choices made here include the character's color and whether the player will start as Samus or Zero Suit Samus, as Zelda or Sheik, or as a particular Pokemon for Pokemon Trainer.

**No player may choose a stage they have already won on in that set unless agreed upon by both players.

Starter/Counter

* Battlefield
* Yoshi's Island
* Smashville

* Lylat Cruise
* Pokémon Stadium

* Final Destination
* Castle Siege

* Delfino Plaza
* Halberd


Counterpick

* Luigi's Mansion
* Norfair
* Frigate Orpheon
* Pokémon Stadium 2
* Port Town Aero Dive
* Distant Planet
* Pictochat
* Jungle Japes
* Rainbow Cruise
* Green Greens
* Brinstar


Counter/Banned

* Yoshi's Island (Melee)
* Pirate Ship


Banned

* Mushroomy Kingdom 1
* Mushroomy Kingdom 2
* Mario Circuit
* Rumble Falls
* Bridge of Eldin
* Spear Pillar
* Wario Ware
* New Pork City
* Summit
* Skyworld
* 75m
* Mario Bros.
* Flat Zone 2
* Hanenbow
* Shadow Moses Island
* Green Hill Zone
* Temple
* Onett
* Corneria
* Big Blue

Tournament organizers are to choose the number of starter stages (3, 5, 7, or 9) and use as many Starter/Counterpick stages as required reading from the top of the list down and making the remainder of that section (if any) into counterpick stages. Mixing and matching is not an element of the BBR Rule Set.

Discuss away.

 

[T-block]

The dawn of a new era...

 

[sunshade]

New ruleset, new stage list, new thread. The worlds changing.

Anyways Was anyone else surprised at yoshi's island brawl being a counter/banned but onett being fully banned?

Edit: baww T-block you beat me to it

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

In case anyone is confused, this is the "main" thread with the other one hopefully soaking up some of the more, well, philosophical arguments we had last time. If anyone has an issue with the way I've divided stage legality discussion, let me know.

We in the BBR put a lot of time and effort into this rule set, and I'm pretty satisfied with how it turned out. It is mostly a victory for the "liberal" stage supporters, but don't take it too much as an extreme list. Notice that no stages that were banned under the BBR Rule Set 2.0 are legal under this set; indeed the only stage that got "promoted" was Delfino Plaza from Counterpick to Starter/Counterpick. Expect some detailed explanations of what went on back in the BBR in the future (they're a work in progress), but for now, just enjoy the list.

 

[T-block]

=P

Anyways Was anyone else surprised at yoshi's island brawl being a counter/banned but onett being fully banned?

You mean Yoshi's Island: Melee, and no not really... they're similar in that they both have a walkoff on both sides, but they ARE different stages, so they should be evaluated separately.

 

[AvaricePanda]

this is going to be the most blunt question ever

Why is Green Greens legal?

Can someone list the issues with the stage and why they're accepted to be counterpick-worthy?

 

[T-block]

AA's words:

We recognize this stage has been controversial in the past, and after considering the merits and problems with this stage, we concluded it was overall an acceptable counterpick.

The single most dominating aspect of the debate was the randomness issue; Green Greens has three random aspects. The first is that blocks randomly fall into incomplete columns and may or may not be bombs, the second is that apples occasionally fall and may randomly be throwable items, healing items, or self-detonating explosives, and the third is that the wind event occurs randomly. The consensus on the blocks was that, while they do contain a significant random element, it is small when players understand the rules governing the stage and play correctly to minimize risk. It is further limited as a problem by the fact that good DI prevents deaths to the bomb blocks except at fairly high damage so getting hit into a randomly falling bomb block should very seldom be fatal. The apples were agreed to be somewhat harder to predict, but apples fall rarely with the most deadly aspect (exploding apples) being the rarest issue of all. Again, very rare misfortune may occur, but the vast majority of problems randomness in apples cause can be avoided by all players using smart play. The third random aspect, the wind, was not raised as a significant point and therefore is likely considered irrelevant to the stage's legality by the majority of the BBR. While some BBR members did feel the randomness was significant enough to warrant a ban, the majority did not feel it was especially significant when informed players approached the stage.

The potential for wall infintes was another concern for this stage, but it was ultimately decided by the majority to be acceptable. The breakable nature of the blocks does much to limit the power of wall infinites on this stage.

The closeness of blast zones was another concern, but the majority dismissed this concern. Some feel that blast zone proximity should not be a large concern when deciding counterpick status at all, and others were quick to point out that Green Greens is not as extreme as it initially seems. The main ground on Green Greens is actually slightly further from the upper blast zone than the deck of the Halberd, and play on Green Greens is usually based around the center stage which is reasonably distant from the side blast zones.

The stalling potential of this stage with under the stage antics and ledge stalling was considered but ultimately dismissed. The majority felt that, while this was a potential concern, it was not significantly more dangerous than it is on Smashville, an uncontroversial legal stage.

Matchup balance was the last point considered, but no consensus was reached on how powerful this stage was for characters such as Meta Knight. The fact that few seemed sure of the character balance on this stage was highlighted by what a rare pick this stage was at both MLG events. This uncertainty led us to conclude that this stage should not be banned on that basis.

 

[uhmuzing]

New ruleset, new stage list, new thread. The worlds changing.

Anyways Was anyone else surprised at yoshi's island brawl being a counter/banned but onett being fully banned?

Edit: baww T-block you beat me to it

I've never seen how Onett could even remotely be considered a CP. The cars aren't much of an issue, but the walk-offs and walls certainly are.

 

[Sucumbio]

The 2 walk-offs are blocked by giant houses and the pathways are interrupted on a timely basis by cars (with set knockback). Getting chain-grabbed off this stage is the player's fault, not the stage's. The walls of the houses, yeah I can see that being a concern. But I don't play on Onett, cause it's banned

Great list, btw. I've been using the 9-starter stage list for months now. It's actually the only 9 stages I play on anymore.

 

[DMG]

This new stage list is a lot gayer.

Good news for me.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I've never seen how Onett could even remotely be considered a CP. The cars aren't much of an issue, but the walk-offs and walls certainly are.

Let's say your opponent is DDD. The cars come what, every 10 seconds or so? I know it's a fixed amount of time somewhere around there. You're marth. When's the correct time to approach him? Remember, the car will shove him out of his cushy camping spot, or at least force him to block/dodge. This is a big deal, because it means he has to lower his offensive defense for a moment and concentrate on dealing with ****.
Answer:
You approach him right before the car shows up. If he starts CGing you, the car comes by and interrupts it. Check this post out: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10865235&postcount=2137 <- Onett is not that bad

 

[AvaricePanda]

You both get hit by the car, or D3 can SH D-air after a d-throw and make only you get hit by the car (along with a D-air) lol. He really doesn't have to get hit, and the car interrupting his CG isn't really a bad thing because
a) You're both getting hit by damage, and you're getting hit by extra from his D-throws
b) He can SH D-air after a d-throw and make you take car + D-air damage
c) Even if you both get hit by the car, he wins because he's fat and DDD and you're dying earlier than he is.

Even if what you said worked better, when a game on Onett deteriorates into, "don't step here or you die," it's not exactly a good stage.

 

[Nick Schovitz]

Really still only see Spear Pillar being the only one that really should be banned.

Still stand on Rumble Falls as it's a strangely designed map and a lot of times you're focused on primarily moving up. That stage just isn't fun. Mario Bros feels messy and does have a lot of random in it, so I'm okay with that being banned. 75m that stage is okay I don't really care for it so I don't really care either way. Hanenbow is just dull.

Everything else seems okay with me.

 

[lordhelmet]

BTW guys, Wario gets ****ed on Mansion.

Just tested it with a friend. Basically you grab a standing Wario under the roof on the first floor of Mansion. Any character that is tall enough to grab release him can CG
him here. I have a feeling many other short characters can get grab released into crap, too.

Snake (Standing Infinite)
Falcon
Ganon
DK
Marth
Ike
Peach
Bowser (Standing Infinite)
Yoshi (Standing Infinite)
Zelda (Standing Infinite)

Video Link

 

[Juushichi]

While there is common knowledge that Wario already gets GR'd by those characters (I believe Mario might do the same one Wario, too, as I've GR'd into upsmash before), this to me brings up a a question of how the first floor ceiling affects the tradjectory of longer grab releases. I don't really want to say that the GR on wario isn't a problem, but I'm not entirely sure that it itself is a huge issue.

 

[IIIIRICK]

cant wait to try this out in our next tourny.

 

[sunshade]

Considering that wario players are used to getting messed up by grab releases and the fact that luigi's mansion allows a lesser version of circle stall I dont think the grab release infinites on him are an issue. If they are an issue then I guess we learned that wario is bad on luigi's mansion in the same way ice climbers are bad on norfair.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

So. I would like to propose banning either Brinstar or RC (preferably the former), or maybe even both due to overcentralization around MK. Brinstar is simply too strong of a counterpick for MK.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

My previous experiences suggest that ceilings don't allow new grab release chain grabs. lordhelmet, could you please go into more detail about your testing methods?

 

[lordhelmet]

My previous experiences suggest that ceilings don't allow new grab release chain grabs. lordhelmet, could you please go into more detail about your testing methods?

I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

Wario still has the same amount of "useless" frames, but since the ceiling is there he is stuck closer to the opponent allowing a plethora of new options.

Edit:

I tested on other characters but Wario is really the only one that releases straight up. However, the ceiling will still lead to many other guaranteed attacks on characters that can get grab released.

 

[sunshade]

So. I would like to propose banning either Brinstar or RC (preferably the former), or maybe even both due to overcentralization around MK. Brinstar is simply too strong of a counterpick for MK.

Considering that characters suck as Game and watch, and zero suit samus can give metaknight a run for his money on both of those stages, I don't feel that the stage can be declared bannable due to over centralization.

Metaknight is the strongest character in the game regardless of stage but that does not mean that this stage is broken for him because it aids him as opposed to hindering him. Both stages have been legal counterpicks from the start and have yet to show evidence that they are broken for him.

@lordhelmet: are those grab releases you mentioned exclusive to luigi's mansion?

 

[lordhelmet]

The infinites yes, aside from Bowser and Yoshi can supposedly do it without the ceiling.

And actually, I'm pretty sure every character that can force air releases on Wario can infinite with pivot grabbing but I'll have to look into that later.

 

[Tesh]

Even though its not the main controversy with green greens, I have seen people complain about bombs falling out of view being unfair.

Why don't people just play Green Greens in Fixed Camera Mode? You can see the blocks falling at all times and plan around it. It would still be random, but with fair warning I think. If something random is visible before its relevant, certainly its less skill diminishing.

 

[lordhelmet]

Even though its not the main controversy with green greens, I have seen people complain about bombs falling out of view being unfair.

Why don't people just play Green Greens in Fixed Camera Mode? You can see the blocks falling at all times and plan around it. It would still be random, but with fair warning I think. If something random is visible before its relevant, certainly its less skill diminishing.

Yes, how about we play New Pork Town and Hyrule in giant mode so you can't run away?

 

[T-block]

ZSS, Yoshi, Bowser, Ganondorf can all get a standing regrab regardless of stage.

Sheik and Ike can get a regrab with pivot grab (not infinite because of tripping). Sonic also has standing regrab I think, but it has to be at the edge.

So there's already 6 characters that can do something like this on Wario without the mansion... how many characters can even force an air release on him? And are all of those characters able to get a regrab on LM?

 

[lordhelmet]

ZSS, Yoshi, Bowser, Ganondorf can all get a standing regrab regardless of stage.

Sheik and Ike can get a regrab with pivot grab (not infinite because of tripping). Sonic also has standing regrab I think, but it has to be at the edge.

So there's already 6 characters that can do something like this on Wario without the mansion... how many characters can even force an air release on him? And are all of those characters able to get a regrab on LM?

Only Yoshi for sure can standing regrab. Supposedly Bowser can as well but IDK about that.

I didn't test characters that can't force air releases. IE: Sonic/Sheik can't force an air release unless he grabs Wario in the air because they are not tall enough.

All the characters that can force an air release can CG Wario at Mansion (see the video description please). And as I said earlier it's very likely that every character can pivot regrab Wario which would lead to "pseudo" infinites.

 

[T-block]

ZSS can for sure. I'm also 95% sure about Bowser and Ganondorf.

I've also always been able to air release Wario as Sheik... how are you testing this x.x

 

[lordhelmet]

ZSS can for sure. I'm also 95% sure about Bowser and Ganondorf.

I've also always been able to air release Wario as Sheik... how are you testing this x.x

Ganondorf/ZSS cannot standing infinite Wario I know for a fact. Ganondorf can CG with extremely strict timing though.

And my bad, I must've missed Sheik earlier. She does force an air release because Wario's feet don't touch the ground.

 

[Tesh]

Yes, how about we play New Pork Town and Hyrule in giant mode so you can't run away?

What are you serious? You can still circle camp in giant mode. What we really need is 1 stock matches with food on high And bumpers so you can block their path.

Fixed camera mode doesn't affect gameplay at all on small stages. On larger stages (which I'm not recommending it for) it has a slight effect on hoop damage. Green Greens is the only stage that doesn't zoom out automatically to show hazards (halberd, norfair). I don't see any reason we shouldn't alleviate a simple camera issue. It fixes an issue without creating an issue.

 

[sunshade]

The issue with fixed camera mode is that while it does not change the game itself, it does affect gameplay. All the physics and such are the same but I and just about everyone is used to the camera zooming in and out to help indicate positions. I personally am not able to simply switch between regular and fixed camera because the fixed camera will actually cause issue for me, it just does not feel correct.

even regardless of the fixed camera the bomb blocks/regular blocks fall at a rate faster than you are able to react to. If you are hit you can go flying and bump against a block to have your stock saved or preform a charged smash and then have a bomb block fall into the previously empty slot.

 

[Tesh]

That is a very very minor issue don't you think? I don't really understand what you mean about fixed camera mode hindering anything. I know a 1v1 in close combat it would look like alot of wasted space on the screen, but its not a huge stage anyway. I think if it helps people react to the hazards a bit better and form plans/tactics around how high the walls are and what the walls are made of, its more relevant than the camera not "feeling correct". I had to play a doubles match on an 11 inch TV once and that didn't feel correct either.

That is alot easier to adjust to than not knowing what is going on behind you. Obviously this isn't the only issue with the stage, but I don't see why this wouldn't help.

Edit: If it was a stage like halberd, frigate or norfair, where the camera does warn you about hazards, I would understand completely. But you don't lose anything by fixing the camera on this stage.

 

[lordhelmet]

That is a very very minor issue don't you think? I don't really understand what you mean about fixed camera mode hindering anything. I know a 1v1 in close combat it would look like alot of wasted space on the screen, but its not a huge stage anyway. I think if it helps people react to the hazards a bit better and form plans/tactics around how high the walls are and what the walls are made of, its more relevant than the camera not "feeling correct". I had to play a doubles match on an 11 inch TV once and that didn't feel correct either.

That is alot easier to adjust to than not knowing what is going on behind you. Obviously this isn't the only issue with the stage, but I don't see why this wouldn't help.

Edit: If it was a stage like halberd, frigate or norfair, where the camera does warn you about hazards, I would understand completely. But you don't lose anything by fixing the camera on this stage.

Dude if the hazards are that big of a deal that you need to consider alternate Brawl modes to play on them, just ban the stage T_T

 

[Tesh]

Dude if the hazards are that big of a deal that you need to consider alternate Brawl modes to play on them, just ban the stage T_T

I personally don't think they are, but I have seen people complaining about them showing up out of view. Its not that fixed camera mode would give you an amazing amount of time to react to them falling, like halberds hazards. But often during the match, its impossible to see when, how or what blocks are stacking behind you. It seems like a simple fix without no relevant downside.

 

[Rayquaza07]

yeah green green does have wierd camara angles once i threw my opp up right into a falling bomb lol but i agree with the 3.0 stage list and it gets my stamp of approval

 

[ADHD]

I played on some of the stages yesterday..

PTAD is okay, other then the fact that you literally have no options if you're forced to recover (of course Metaknight is the exception). Snake can simply bide his time and fsmash you if you're a character like lucario or wolf lol. This stage is very sad for tethers as well. If the standard transition had ledges at the end of the mobile platform, then this stage would be really balanced. I just see Metaknight taking advantage of the fact that all recoveries except his are nerfed too strongly.

Luigi's Mansion--even other than the circle camping is broken. It's so imbalanced. Some characters just flat out don't have the movesets to score kills when the opponenet is inside the house, and other are completely relaxed with that concept. If your character struggles, you'll take 80 damage or a whole stock of being hit for merely trying to finish the work you did at the beginning of the game on your enemy's first stock. I hate this stage.

Green greens--I don't like Green Greens. It feels as if there's not enough land to do anything, and being gimped is much easier when the blastzones are so close to the ledges. The bombs are random, the exploding blocks, and insanely close deathzones from side to side make it a recipe for gimmicks and disaster.

Btw, what is scrooging when there's six ledges? Metaknight can waste alot of time underneath the stage.


Distant Planet just has no purpose. I don't know anyone who would counterpick there other than Pit, because not even Metaknight excels there unless he air camps. Whatever, it seems like a dumb competitive stage but I don't really see issues with it.

I didn't get to test Onnett.

 

[Raziek]

Let me first say thank you for actually testing these stages.

On PTAD nerfing recoveries, that's basically exactly why it's a counterpick. As I've said in the past, one character being really good isn't a reason to ban a stage, unless it literally becomes 100-0 for all matchups.

Mansion I can't really offer much of an opinion on the circle camping, so if you have videos of it, I would appreciate it. As for allowing characters to live longer, that's the main draw for this stage as a counterpick. Characters like GW and DK can live absurdly long thanks to bucket and up-B breaking, and characters like Olimar or Snake who can force tech-chases love the inside of the house. Again, this is why it's a counterpick, not a neutral. I'd like to see proof that circle camping is broken on it. If it can be stopped by breaking down the mansion, I don't think it is reasonable to ban it, considering it only takes about 20 second to destroy the whole thing. (Hell, even destroying 3/4ths is better, since then it doesn't regenerate.

On Green Greens: Lack of space and close blast zones are both counterpick qualities. The bombs being random IS an issue, but I feel that it isn't as big a deal as people make it out to be. If they fell randomly all over the stage, I would say "yes, ban it." However, they fall in an extremely concentrated section of the stage. Yes, trying to make it past this section severely limits your options for approach, but I don't feel it any worse than trying to approach someone who is set up camping correctly on Yoshi's Island, or Pictochat under a hazard. If your character has adequate disjoints you can even remove the blocks and attack through with projectiles, or simply open up another avenue of approach. The camping is strong, but not unbeatable. I think Green Greens is quite similar to Japes in this regard. MK is MK, so I don't really consider that a valid reason. His camping on it is quite possibly broken, but MK is broken on ledges EVERYWHERE, not just Green Greens. GG just makes it easier.

Distant Planet does have a purpose. I take people here all the time because people don't know how to play on the stage. It also places a strong emphasis on aerial combat on the main stage, and provides simple, but not overpowered or gimmicky items to work with. I glide-toss the pellets all the time to mix things up. A stage that provides items FREQUENTLY, without being unbalanced due to the grace period before you can actually claim them, is an excellent example of a unique counterpick. On top of that, there is an element of strategy in the decision to claim a pellet immediately, or trying to wait until it is stronger for a larger advantage.

Again, I appreciate you testing the stages. Most of your arguments, however, are just listing the reasons and qualities that make these stages unique counterpicks.

 

[AMKalmar]

So. I would like to propose banning either Brinstar or RC (preferably the former), or maybe even both due to overcentralization around MK. Brinstar is simply too strong of a counterpick for MK.

There is nothing wrong with those stages, the character is the problem.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I played on some of the stages yesterday..

PTAD is okay, other then the fact that you literally have no options if you're forced to recover (of course Metaknight is the exception). Snake can simply bide his time and fsmash you if you're a character like lucario or wolf lol. This stage is very sad for tethers as well. If the standard transition had ledges at the end of the mobile platform, then this stage would be really balanced. I just see Metaknight taking advantage of the fact that all recoveries except his are nerfed too strongly.

Did you try recovering as far towards the center of the stage as possible and then bouncing off the floor through the stage? It's pretty bad, but that bad?

Also I agree with the second half of the post. Can I refer to you on this when I try to convince the tards in the Brawl- backroom like Diem or TSON that PTAD- should not get rid of cars/the wall?

Luigi's Mansion--even other than the circle camping is broken. It's so imbalanced. Some characters just flat out don't have the movesets to score kills when the opponenet is inside the house, and other are completely relaxed with that concept. If your character struggles, you'll take 80 damage or a whole stock of being hit for merely trying to finish the work you did at the beginning of the game on your enemy's first stock. I hate this stage.

LM is the second-most dubious stage I have seen on the list (after Distant Planet)... This seems to make sense. I should probably test it, but when you're already a very low-level player and your friends are all either considerably worse than you, the level of scrub that starts johning about DDD's non-infinite CG or walling them with marth, or both... Not easy.

Green greens--I don't like Green Greens. It feels as if there's not enough land to do anything, and being gimped is much easier when the blastzones are so close to the ledges. The bombs are random, the exploding blocks, and insanely close deathzones from side to side make it a recipe for gimmicks and disaster.

Btw, what is scrooging when there's six ledges? Metaknight can waste alot of time underneath the stage.

Ew. I'm gonna skip this one because I honestly don't know what to think about the stage...

Distant Planet just has no purpose. I don't know anyone who would counterpick there other than Pit, because not even Metaknight excels there unless he air camps. Whatever, it seems like a dumb competitive stage but I don't really see issues with it.

Really? What about the area under the leaf? That seems kinda powerful for MK... In fact, it's ridiculously strong for quite a few chars. I was testing this (on vbrawl wifi, but at least it was pretty much lag-free) and a lot of characters just didn't have options against it if you just sit down there blocking projectiles/pellets and shuttle looping approaches.

I didn't get to test Onnett.

Pity; I was hoping for some tests on that stage from top-level players. Remember, when you test onett against a character who abuses the walkoffs/walls, don't approach him unless the car is there or at least the warning sign is flashing. If you do that, the worst that will happen if you play it right is around 40 damage (and usually they'll take 30 of it too). I may be wrong, and that's part of what should be checked, just make sure you abuse the cars right to help you approach.
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10865235&postcount=2137 <- This might help

Appreciating the help testing these stages.

There is nothing wrong with those stages, the character is the problem.

Yeah, I know. Just throwing that out there.

 

[BSP]

I played on some of the stages yesterday..

PTAD is okay, other then the fact that you literally have no options if you're forced to recover (of course Metaknight is the exception). Snake can simply bide his time and fsmash you if you're a character like lucario or wolf lol. This stage is very sad for tethers as well. If the standard transition had ledges at the end of the mobile platform, then this stage would be really balanced. I just see Metaknight taking advantage of the fact that all recoveries except his are nerfed too strongly.

Meta knight's just that good...

But just because it's really good for him, it shouldn't stop this stage's viability. He can't plank on PTAD at all except on one transformation if that helps.

The only potential problem with DP is the little part of the hill under the leaf. I don't know exactly how defendable it is, but I'd imagine it'd be difficult to approach them. The rain doesn't stop it either, since the player can still grab the ledge.

 

[ADHD]

Did you try recovering as far towards the center of the stage as possible and then bouncing off the floor through the stage? It's pretty bad, but that bad?

Some characters' recoveries are just flat out punished no matter what angle/insert suggestion here.

Really? What about the area under the leaf? That seems kinda powerful for MK... In fact, it's ridiculously strong for quite a few chars. I was testing this (on vbrawl wifi, but at least it was pretty much lag-free) and a lot of characters just didn't have options against it if you just sit down there blocking projectiles/pellets and shuttle looping approaches.

If he sharks under the leaf you can just go over to the hill. When it rains, you can plank and repeat the cycle. This stage has NOTHING to do with skill, though. There's no terrain to have legitimate pressure or anything other than throwing out random *** aerials and hoping they hit. That's why I hate Distant Planet. It was like a 2-d cartoonish guessing game where both characters are helpless against eachother and resort to boring camping and lucky guesses to chip in real damage.