Official Stage Legality Discussion: Stage Specific

[Jigglymaster]

Yoshi's pretty good on Distant Planet, his Egg throw really works well there, I can't remember how exactly but I remember a Yoshi Cping me there and it was annoying as hell.

 

[Luxor]

I suspect the problem was Yoshi camping under the leaf in the "win pocket," which is a strong position for anybody. Yoshi and Pit in particular since they can aim their projectiles from there.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Thinkaman made the private remark to me once that Distant Planet should be legal because the only effect it has on the game is making Captain Falcon better. Dunno if it's true, but the old rumor is that it's a good Captain Falcon counterpick but not actually worth picking for any other character.

 

[Tesh]

Why would captain falcon like it?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

(10:12:12 PM) Amazing Ampharos: so, why is Distant Planet good for Captain Falcon?
(10:15:47 PM) Thinkaman: I dunno, I think the horizontal jumping speed and large range uair benefit him
(10:15:56 PM) Thinkaman: the platforms are a good height for him

It works for me.

 

[T-block]

You guys don't even know.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oibM-RRoItg

 

[BSP]

My data's pretty consistent with that. Although, I need to note that the Bulborb looking up and down takes less time than its yawn.

 

[-LzR-]

Distant Planet is a horrible stage. How can you even consider a stage with a permanent circle with a ledge in a perfectly unbeatable position?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Distant Planet is a horrible stage. How can you even consider a stage with a permanent circle with a ledge in a perfectly unbeatable position?

Have you ever run this circle in an at least semi-serious match against a competent opponent in a match-up that does not involve Ganondorf?

 

[-LzR-]

I have done and I have circled someone in this stage in a moneymatch. I took 17% damage on that match. My opponent killed himself in his desperate attempts to catch me. Yes, a perfectly fine stage.

 

[Raziek]

And I've beaten 10 Meta-Knight simultaneously using Ganondorf while fighting a wild boar IRL with my free hand.

Vids or it didn't happen.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Ganondorf/ZSS cannot standing infinite Wario I know for a fact. Ganondorf can CG with extremely strict timing though.

And my bad, I must've missed Sheik earlier. She does force an air release because Wario's feet don't touch the ground.

ZSS can absolutely regrab wario, but it isn't really worth it and the window is small.

 

[AvaricePanda]

Have you ever run this circle in an at least semi-serious match against a competent opponent in a match-up that does not involve Ganondorf?

mr. doom did.

as ike.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nr7DtTYoUxA&feature=channel

kinda unrelated, but this is also funny:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9b_kkUPLkc

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

mr. doom did.

as ike.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nr7DtTYoUxA&feature=channel

This was not infinite run-away in any way. This was a defensively oriented but very close back and forth match (in which Wolf probably should have won but made a lot of mistakes). If this is the "worst" play ever looks on this stage, I'm 100% convinced it should be legal since there was nothing wrong here.

When I think of a loop abuse, I don't think of a last stock match in which the advantage was changing hands in the last 10 seconds. It just doesn't fit at all. If anything, that match should be used as evidence Distant Planet is fine.

 

[DMG]

The loop is quite abuseable. Any noteworthy tournament that chooses to use this stage will see this come up unless no one has any notions of playing gay lol.

 

[sunshade]

If it does turn up and turns out to be broken then we will ban the stage. Until that point why should we resort to knee jerk reactions?

When is the last time you heard someone argue for corneria to be legal? The reason liberals dont argue for its legality is we have actual tournament evidence to show that the stage is bannable as opposed to weak theory craft saying it is.

 

[-LzR-]

The loop degenerates gameplay. I won a match just doing one hit and flying that loop over and over again.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

And I infiltrated & blew up area 51

Vids or it didn't happen.

 

[vVv Rapture]

If it does turn up and turns out to be broken then we will ban the stage. Until that point why should we resort to knee jerk reactions?

When is the last time you heard someone argue for corneria to be legal? The reason liberals dont argue for its legality is we have actual tournament evidence to show that the stage is bannable as opposed to weak theory craft saying it is.

You know, theory and testing is still quite viable, but I have to agree, tournament evidence is what makes or breaks the legality of a stage. Test it and you'll get a few opinions. Display it at an actual tournament and people take notice.

Then again, tournament evidence can be superfluous. For example, we really don't need to bring Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1 or 1-2 into an event to know it's bannable.

 

[-LzR-]

Why is it that you can't believe the loop breaks the game? It's a **** CIRCLE!

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

It's a circle with a cut in the middle. At certain points during it you can cross a straight line directly to your opponent.

 

[sunshade]

Its not a circle because you can box your opponent off and limit their options to the point in which you can hit them or punish them for moving incorrectly.

Circle stall is 1 hit 1 win.

If you look at those matches of supposed "circle" you will notice ike and wolf going back and forth, trading percents, losing stocks, and exchanging the lead.

Same as regular brawl only cammpier.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

If it does turn up and turns out to be broken then we will ban the stage. Until that point why should we resort to knee jerk reactions?

When is the last time you heard someone argue for corneria to be legal? The reason liberals dont argue for its legality is we have actual tournament evidence to show that the stage is bannable as opposed to weak theory craft saying it is.

Not banning a stage that is clearly broken just so that you can find evidence that it is broken is dumb. How much money are you going to have people waste though timeouts or unfair losses in tournaments before you consider a stage ban worthy? Using your logic in real life, a jewelery store would never have to get an alarm system until it gets robbed.

 

[sunshade]

Not banning a stage that is clearly broken just so that you can find evidence that it is broken is dumb. How much money are you going to have people waste though timeouts or unfair losses in tournaments before you consider a stage ban worthy? Using your logic in real life, a jewelery store would never have to get an alarm system until it gets robbed.

Using my logic we would not send a man to prison before we find evidence that he committed a crime. We might even use a standard called "innocent until proven guilty".

Oh wait we already do that.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Not banning a stage that is clearly broken just so that you can find evidence that it is broken is dumb. How much money are you going to have people waste though timeouts or unfair losses in tournaments before you consider a stage ban worthy? Using your logic in real life, a jewelery store would never have to get an alarm system until it gets robbed.

Oh dear. And what is clearly broken? Warioware? Mario Bros? Port Town? Brinstar? What "clearly broken" is defined as is completely subjective, and if we shouldn't wait until there's conclusive proof for a stage if we can call it clearly broken, then FD is clearly broken and should never be run in a serious tournament again.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Oh dear. And what is clearly broken? Warioware? Mario Bros? Port Town? Brinstar? What "clearly broken" is defined as is completely subjective, and if we shouldn't wait until there's conclusive proof for a stage if we can call it clearly broken, then FD is clearly broken and should never be run in a serious tournament again.

I'm just saying that there has to be a better way to figure out how broken these stages actually are instead of having people waist their money at a tournament because of a stupid time out.

 

[DMG]

The problem is that some of these introduced stages are ones that "probably" have issues, but people don't see them as obviously as Hanenbow, Temple, etc. Those few stages unfortunately are gonna be the "Lololol timeouts for fun" stages for awhile. Brawl competitively is fine without stages like Pirate Ship, Distant Planet, etc but the current mentality is add it if you aren't 100% sure.

 

[sunshade]

You can play test a stage in a non tournament environment and come up with conclusive results showing that a stage should be banned.

I dont need to see a tourney match of circle camping for 8 minutes to understand that the tactic is unbeatable. A serious match being played to win by both players without money on the line will do just as well.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Using my logic we would not send a man to prison before we find evidence that he committed a crime. We might even use a standard called "innocent until proven guilty".

Oh wait we already do that.

yeah, but if he can't afford a lawyer, the city pays for one. Who's going to pay for my entry fee? They shouldn't make these stages legal until they prove that they are not broken.

 

[Tesh]

Its probably easier to time someone out on this stage, but I doubt you can really avoid any risk of being hit via circle camping. Unless its against Ganondorf.

There are also other stages that make it even easier to time people out that are generally accepted.

 

[sunshade]

yeah, but if he can't afford a lawyer, the city pays for one. Who's going to pay for my entry fee?

reread the following VVV

You can play test a stage in a non tournament environment and come up with conclusive results showing that a stage should be banned.

I dont need to see a tourney match of circle camping for 8 minutes to understand that the tactic is unbeatable. A serious match being played to win by both players without money on the line will do just as well.

They shouldn't make these stages legal until they prove that they are not broken.

And we should not let someone accused of a crime walk the streets unless they can prove their own innocence.

 

[BSP]

Was there any thought on using Corneria in doubles? Or is the fin still considered too centralizing in brawl?

 

[sunshade]

If a stage is not sound in 1v1 combat then it is not sound for 2v2. All 2v2 will eventually become 1v1 and as such problems will arise that were only temporary solved by having 2v2 combat.

 

[Raziek]

If a stage is not sound in 1v1 combat then it is not sound for 2v2. All 2v2 will eventually become 1v1 and as such problems will arise that were only temporary solved by having 2v2 combat.

^Sunshade with the accurate response.

 

[-Vocal-]

Oh dear. And what is clearly broken? Warioware? Mario Bros? Port Town? Brinstar? What "clearly broken" is defined as is completely subjective, and if we shouldn't wait until there's conclusive proof for a stage if we can call it clearly broken, then FD is clearly broken and should never be run in a serious tournament again.

This post makes me happy, and as an added bonus it doesn't even include the word scrub <3

 

[PK-ow!]

You can play test a stage in a non tournament environment and come up with conclusive results showing that a stage should be banned.

I dont need to see a tourney match of circle camping for 8 minutes to understand that the tactic is unbeatable. A serious match being played to win by both players without money on the line will do just as well.

But you need to have money on the line to know they're playing to win. Otherwise, it may be something like a john, but there's room for doubt if "It's just friendlies."


To prove something you have to money match someone. If I thought Onett were competitive, I'd money match people there, prepared to beat guys who think there's a cheap way out, thus proving that it does not exist.

The trouble is I have to get them to actually play it. If they think it's uncompetitive because it's random (rather than broken by something), I'd have to give them a Best Of set so that they can show they can eventually win. This might happen with, say, PTAD.

(The other issue is, me losing doesn't quite prove anything except by Popperian science. I might still be right that Onett is competitive, and not be good enough. However, I'd have to agree that, at least, my losing counts as evidence I don't know Onett is competitive, since if I can't win (execute), there's room for doubt about my theorycraft.)


These two problems make it quite a waste of time, realistically, for people to accept these money matches. They'll only do it for the easy money (by their belief of the stage). Plus, you probably have to skew the odds a bit, to back up our wager that you know *strictly* more than they do (that they have an incorrect belief, and you have knowledge past it), so that a set which goes roughly even is still in their favour.

It's a tough, tough hill to climb.


... which is why you SHOULDN'T GO BANNED->UNBANNED FOR RULES DEVELOPMENT,

Spoiler

YOU ****ed SCRUBBY CONSERVATIVE REGIONS

. It's Omni-unbanned -> Banned in the bible for a reason.


EDIT: Crap, that entered the 'philosophical' region of stage discussion, sorry.
Well, it's not about philosophy, really.. just saying about money matches for banned stages.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Yeah, this is getting off-topic into philosophical stuff. I didn't even have to be the first one to say it...

This thread is all about particular stages. For instance, Green Greens. Do you want to see it in a tournament near you? That would be a very on-topic issue.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Do I want to? Not really, it's gay as ****. Hilarious for friendlies, but I hate it for actual high-level play.
Should it be in the tournaments? Probably.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

I personally wouldn't. The block towers seriously hurt mobility, and while trying to destroy the towers, you might hit a bomb block, giving you a chunck of damage.

 

[Raziek]

Yeah, this is getting off-topic into philosophical stuff. I didn't even have to be the first one to say it...

This thread is all about particular stages. For instance, Green Greens. Do you want to see it in a tournament near you? That would be a very on-topic issue.

We have it in my area. Semi-frequent pick by some players who have taken the time to learn it.

A lot of people john about it, but I've yet to see anything to indicate that it isn't a legitimate stage.