Official Stage Legality Discussion: Stage Specific

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

I've yet to see anything to indicate that it isn't a legitimate stage.

This is just some theorycrafting, but towers of block would probably seriously hurt mobility.

When you try to destroy the blocks, you might hit yourself, giving you 20 damage.

 

[Raziek]

This is just some theorycrafting, but towers of block would probably seriously hurt mobility.

When you try to destroy the blocks, you might hit yourself, giving you 20 damage.

Not really. Most characters have sufficient disjoints to allow them to detonate a tower without hurting themselves. On top of that, it isn't IMPOSSIBLE to approach from the top, just difficult.

 

[-Vocal-]

This is just some theorycrafting, but towers of block would probably seriously hurt mobility.

When you try to destroy the blocks, you might hit yourself, giving you 20 damage.

Yea, it's not THAT bad. Annoying stage imo, but it's not game breaking

 

[-LzR-]

I think Green Greens is a stage that cannot be legal without stages like Norfair, PTAD and such. It's so weird and it will never be legal here.

 

[Raziek]

There's no real reason to ban Norfair unless you're completely opposed to stage hazards. Almost nothing about it is random.

 

[-Vocal-]

There's no real reason to ban Norfair unless you're completely opposed to stage hazards. Almost nothing about it is random.

Well there is the part where it can get really restricting I think someone said the wall and floor don't come at the same time, but this definitely happened to me last tourney - there was only one platform to stand on. I did fine - my opponent, not so well. Being forced to land in such a small space against Oli is a terrible (WONDERFUL) place to be in (HAVE SOMEONE IN)

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I'm pretty sure the only characters who can't easily break bomb blocks without hurting themselves are Captain Falcon and Ganondorf. Those two even have ways; it's just kinda tricky.

Bomb block explosions hit over a small area and have only one active frame. The second part comes into play as major if a falling bomb block collides with an airdodging character. It will explode and almost certainly not harm the would-be victim.

 

[Raziek]

Well there is the part where it can get really restricting I think someone said the wall and floor don't come at the same time, but this definitely happened to me last tourney - there was only one platform to stand on. I did fine - my opponent, not so well. Being forced to land in such a small space against Oli is a terrible (WONDERFUL) place to be in (HAVE SOMEONE IN)

I don't know where you heard that the wall and the floor don't come together. They do that semi-frequently. It's the Wave, that you can't get with anything else, and the geysers, which I haven't seen come with a wall.

Also, how would that be much more different than say, a restricted part of Rainbow Cruise?

 

[-Vocal-]

I don't know where you heard that the wall and the floor don't come together. They do that semi-frequently. It's the Wave, that you can't get with anything else, and the geysers, which I haven't seen come with a wall.

Also, how would that be much more different than say, a restricted part of Rainbow Cruise?

Not very

 

[sabrine12345]

I'm pretty satisfied with how it turned out. It is mostly a victory for the "liberal" stage supporters, but don't take it too much as an extreme list. Notice that no stages that were banned under the BBR Rule Set 2.0 are legal under this set; indeed the only stage that got "promoted" was Delfino Plaza from Counterpick to Starter/Counterpick.
_______________________________
Hotels Kuala Lumpur
Hotel Kuala Lumpur

 

[sabrine12345]

It is mostly a victory for the "liberal" stage supporters, but don't take it too much as an extreme list. Notice that no stages that were banned under the BBR Rule Set 2.0 are legal under this set; indeed the only stage that got "promoted" was Delfino Plaza from Counterpick to Starter/Counterpick. Expect some detailed explanations of what went on back in the BBR in the future (they're a work in progress), but for now,
_____________________________
Hotels Kuala Lumpur
Hotel Kuala Lumpur

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

So, I can't say I understand the double post that is quoting my second post in the thread. There were some explanations in another topic from BBR members about things that never ended up on this particular forum if that's what you're trying to call attention to. Your other post looks like a real post so it doesn't seem you're a bot; please don't make bot-looking posts like that in the future, especially not as double posts...

 

[Raziek]

It's a bot, AA. I've seen this in other parts of the forum. They copy/paste a post in the same thread and include a signature with advertisements.

 

[Luxor]

Confirming Raziek, it's quoted me twice >.<

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Ah yes, it's more obvious now. It got lucky by quoting something that almost made sense in context to throw me off, but I found the original post.

 

[Cubone]

Not sure where to ask this but whatever.

What exactly causes the bomb glitch to occur on Green Greens? The one where there appears to be nothing but its a constant hitbox.

Also, is there a way to stop it? How should a tournament match go where the glitch has occured midmatch?

 

[sunshade]

I dont think it is know what causes the glitch. I read in a thread nearly a year ago that hitboxes which do less than 1% damage can trigger it but I never checked into how true that was.

If the glitch occurs the match it should be played out (unless both players agree to restart).

 

[Tesh]

You can end the glitch by triggering another explosion, so its not really like a huge wall of fire you can camp behind.


I've triggered it by doing invincible attacks into the blocks and it might just be random. Some blocks randomly dont have a hitbox on explosion so.....

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I dont think it is know what causes the glitch. I read in a thread nearly a year ago that hitboxes which do less than 1% damage can trigger it but I never checked into how true that was.

If the glitch occurs the match it should be played out (unless both players agree to restart).

That's how it happens. Hit-box with less than 1% damage.

 

[krazyzyko]

AA's words:

We recognize this stage has been controversial in the past, and after considering the merits and problems with this stage, we concluded it was overall an acceptable counterpick.

The single most dominating aspect of the debate was the randomness issue; Green Greens has three random aspects. The first is that blocks randomly fall into incomplete columns and may or may not be bombs, the second is that apples occasionally fall and may randomly be throwable items, healing items, or self-detonating explosives, and the third is that the wind event occurs randomly. The consensus on the blocks was that, while they do contain a significant random element, it is small when players understand the rules governing the stage and play correctly to minimize risk. It is further limited as a problem by the fact that good DI prevents deaths to the bomb blocks except at fairly high damage so getting hit into a randomly falling bomb block should very seldom be fatal. The apples were agreed to be somewhat harder to predict, but apples fall rarely with the most deadly aspect (exploding apples) being the rarest issue of all. Again, very rare misfortune may occur, but the vast majority of problems randomness in apples cause can be avoided by all players using smart play. The third random aspect, the wind, was not raised as a significant point and therefore is likely considered irrelevant to the stage's legality by the majority of the BBR. While some BBR members did feel the randomness was significant enough to warrant a ban, the majority did not feel it was especially significant when informed players approached the stage.

The potential for wall infintes was another concern for this stage, but it was ultimately decided by the majority to be acceptable. The breakable nature of the blocks does much to limit the power of wall infinites on this stage.

The closeness of blast zones was another concern, but the majority dismissed this concern. Some feel that blast zone proximity should not be a large concern when deciding counterpick status at all, and others were quick to point out that Green Greens is not as extreme as it initially seems. The main ground on Green Greens is actually slightly further from the upper blast zone than the deck of the Halberd, and play on Green Greens is usually based around the center stage which is reasonably distant from the side blast zones.

The stalling potential of this stage with under the stage antics and ledge stalling was considered but ultimately dismissed. The majority felt that, while this was a potential concern, it was not significantly more dangerous than it is on Smashville, an uncontroversial legal stage.

Matchup balance was the last point considered, but no consensus was reached on how powerful this stage was for characters such as Meta Knight. The fact that few seemed sure of the character balance on this stage was highlighted by what a rare pick this stage was at both MLG events. This uncertainty led us to conclude that this stage should not be banned on that basis.

If you space it well it's really easy to pull off a wall infinite CT w/DDD, that's why I think this stage should be banned, or DDD making wall infinites on permanent walls. If not we'll keep having awful skillless matches like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ImdFshbgtg

 

[Grim Tuesday]

If you space it well it's really easy to pull off a wall infinite CT w/DDD, that's why I think this stage should be banned, or DDD making wall infinites on permanent walls. If not we'll keep having awful skillless matches like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ImdFshbgtg

THIS JUST IN: You can break the walls, folks!
Impressed? Wait till you find out that you can also avoid being grabbed on the stage very easily!
And ban it against CGers too!
Or not pick a CGable character!

 

[-Vocal-]

If you space it well it's really easy to pull off a wall infinite CT w/DDD, that's why I think this stage should be banned, or DDD making wall infinites on permanent walls. If not we'll keep having awful skillless matches like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ImdFshbgtg

Why was Kish trying to fight in an area where he'd get infinited anyways? Perhaps DK isn't the best character to use for this argument as he may not have the best tools to deal with this type of threat, but there are others that can handle it just fine. It just makes a very strong CP for DDD in some cases.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

If you space it well it's really easy to pull off a wall infinite CT w/DDD, that's why I think this stage should be banned, or DDD making wall infinites on permanent walls. If not we'll keep having awful skillless matches like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ImdFshbgtg

That DK sucked. Green Greens is actually probably one of DK's best counterpicks for the DDD matchup.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbnTVF_CgEA

 

[Raziek]

That DK sucked. Green Greens is actually probably one of DK's best counterpicks for the DDD matchup.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbnTVF_CgEA

For a second I was like, "Am I gonna have to choke a BPC?"

Then I clicked the link and lolz ensued.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

What do you expect? It's THE famous DK-DDD matchup on Green Greens. I find it hilarious that some people try to use that as evidence that the stage should be banned.

 

[Akaku94]

not too familiar with the "infamous DK DDD mu on 2green", but I do know that the chaingrab there was legit... right? Even so, how many characters are succeptible to that besides DK?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

About 2/3rds of the cast can be caught in a wall infinite by DDD, provided they were too stupid to break down the block walls before approaching him in the center.

 

[Akaku94]

but who would approach DDD in the middle with the wall intact?

 

[sunshade]

It does not really matter one way or another because King dedede has a variety of bad match-ups and 90% of those 2/3rds get **** on by metaknight anyways.

There is not a single stage in which kind dedede is so strong that I would say he is the reason to ban the stage. Every stage has someone which beats him at his own game or does something worse.

DK in that video: "derp looks like time to run into king dedede's grab when I know it will cost a me a stock herp"
D3: "looks like time to do the same thing over and over since my opponent is and idiot"

 

[Tesh]

Despite the somewhat lacking skill of the players in that first video, it was interesting to see the DK realize he should break the middle of the walls to make the infinite impossible, and then see the DDD breaking the top part.

Its clear that the optimal way to deal with the CG is to break the middle of the walls and punish DDD for breaking the top part.

That DK missed a few chances to dtilt lock him against the wall sadly.

 

[Bug Style]

AA's words:

We recognize this stage has been controversial in the past, and after considering the merits and problems with this stage, we concluded it was overall an acceptable counterpick.

The single most dominating aspect of the debate was the randomness issue; Green Greens has three random aspects. The first is that blocks randomly fall into incomplete columns and may or may not be bombs, the second is that apples occasionally fall and may randomly be throwable items, healing items, or self-detonating explosives, and the third is that the wind event occurs randomly. The consensus on the blocks was that, while they do contain a significant random element, it is small when players understand the rules governing the stage and play correctly to minimize risk. It is further limited as a problem by the fact that good DI prevents deaths to the bomb blocks except at fairly high damage so getting hit into a randomly falling bomb block should very seldom be fatal. The apples were agreed to be somewhat harder to predict, but apples fall rarely with the most deadly aspect (exploding apples) being the rarest issue of all. Again, very rare misfortune may occur, but the vast majority of problems randomness in apples cause can be avoided by all players using smart play. The third random aspect, the wind, was not raised as a significant point and therefore is likely considered irrelevant to the stage's legality by the majority of the BBR. While some BBR members did feel the randomness was significant enough to warrant a ban, the majority did not feel it was especially significant when informed players approached the stage.

The potential for wall infintes was another concern for this stage, but it was ultimately decided by the majority to be acceptable. The breakable nature of the blocks does much to limit the power of wall infinites on this stage.

The closeness of blast zones was another concern, but the majority dismissed this concern. Some feel that blast zone proximity should not be a large concern when deciding counterpick status at all, and others were quick to point out that Green Greens is not as extreme as it initially seems. The main ground on Green Greens is actually slightly further from the upper blast zone than the deck of the Halberd, and play on Green Greens is usually based around the center stage which is reasonably distant from the side blast zones.

The stalling potential of this stage with under the stage antics and ledge stalling was considered but ultimately dismissed. The majority felt that, while this was a potential concern, it was not significantly more dangerous than it is on Smashville, an uncontroversial legal stage.

Matchup balance was the last point considered, but no consensus was reached on how powerful this stage was for characters such as Meta Knight. The fact that few seemed sure of the character balance on this stage was highlighted by what a rare pick this stage was at both MLG events. This uncertainty led us to conclude that this stage should not be banned on that basis.

That's a really logical way to look at things and I appreciate how much consideration the back room takes into these types of things when deciding what a counterpick should be. HOWEVER, there are certain significant factors that add up to suggest that the stage SHOULD be banned. Logically and objectively speaking of course, I think that the stage has several instances that would normally warrant a ban. Now I'm not too familiar with how the backroom deduces how a counterpick should be banned or things like that, but with the block bombs; they're not a rare instance, and with some characters, even though it doesn't cause death, it DOES cause a meaningful amount of damage I forgot the number, someone correct me if I'm wrong (which I probably will be) but isn't it like 10-15% damage or something like that? Considering that the blocks aren't exactly a rare thing either, that's an additional amount of damage than what the opponent is really working for. Now to keep things objective and NOT focus on the fact that people like to meat ride top tier, let's say characters that are already easy to gimp get counterpicked to green greens, like link. Again, mind you, I'm trying to consider ALL players because I know not many people use Link at all. The thing is that the bombs can cause a Link to get killed REALLY easily considering how easy it already is to gimp him or edge hog him. Again, consider that he's not the only character that has this problem as I'm sure you all know too well how the characters work. So add the amount of characters that are easy to gimp multiplied by the number of players that main those characters in tournament. Of course that's probably a minor factor. Now the randomness of the blocks also causes some accidental options when a block falls on a plater that's grabbing the ledge and makes him/her let go. As we all know, this can be an obvious catalyst to death for many characters (or could cause some extreme luck where you actually EARN a kill [but that's way less likely to happen]). This is true for all characters. The fact with the items (apples) is that it adds a random subsequent change in the balance of the match. Some characters with items can just dominate the game with the obvious advantage of having a throwable item, and let's be realistic those same characters can usually get the items with far less effort of "I'm going to work hard to get it before my opponent gets it" than others. I really shouldn't need to give an example of that at all. I'd hate to be the guy that gets gayed out by repeated use of an item being thrown at me lol. also, if the randomly exploding apples weren't such a problem, than why not just allow empty capsules to be throw around as well? Sure it's rarer, but it's still a VERY existent possibility that players are aware of that could destroy their chances of winning a VERY hard worked for match, and even losing the set. And this can really **** on someone's day especially who just paid to lose to something RANDOM, where the best anyone can say to him/her is, "Oh well, sucks for you." You get me? At least read what I said and consider these things cause not everyone has the money to be spending to have a random NON SKILL related death cause them the loss of their money in a close match.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

That's a really logical way to look at things and I appreciate how much consideration the back room takes into these types of things when deciding what a counterpick should be. HOWEVER, there are certain significant factors that add up to suggest that the stage SHOULD be banned. Logically and objectively speaking of course, I think that the stage has several instances that would normally warrant a ban. Now I'm not too familiar with how the backroom deduces how a counterpick should be banned or things like that, but with the block bombs; they're not a rare instance, and with some characters, even though it doesn't cause death, it DOES cause a meaningful amount of damage I forgot the number, someone correct me if I'm wrong (which I probably will be) but isn't it like 10-15% damage or something like that? Considering that the blocks aren't exactly a rare thing either, that's an additional amount of damage than what the opponent is really working for. Now to keep things objective and NOT focus on the fact that people like to meat ride top tier, let's say characters that are already easy to gimp get counterpicked to green greens, like link. Again, mind you, I'm trying to consider ALL players because I know not many people use Link at all. The thing is that the bombs can cause a Link to get killed REALLY easily considering how easy it already is to gimp him or edge hog him. Again, consider that he's not the only character that has this problem as I'm sure you all know too well how the characters work. So add the amount of characters that are easy to gimp multiplied by the number of players that main those characters in tournament. Of course that's probably a minor factor. Now the randomness of the blocks also causes some accidental options when a block falls on a plater that's grabbing the ledge and makes him/her let go. As we all know, this can be an obvious catalyst to death for many characters (or could cause some extreme luck where you actually EARN a kill [but that's way less likely to happen]). This is true for all characters. The fact with the items (apples) is that it adds a random subsequent change in the balance of the match. Some characters with items can just dominate the game with the obvious advantage of having a throwable item, and let's be realistic those same characters can usually get the items with far less effort of "I'm going to work hard to get it before my opponent gets it" than others. I really shouldn't need to give an example of that at all. I'd hate to be the guy that gets gayed out by repeated use of an item being thrown at me lol. also, if the randomly exploding apples weren't such a problem, than why not just allow empty capsules to be throw around as well? Sure it's rarer, but it's still a VERY existent possibility that players are aware of that could destroy their chances of winning a VERY hard worked for match, and even losing the set. And this can really **** on someone's day especially who just paid to lose to something RANDOM, where the best anyone can say to him/her is, "Oh well, sucks for you." You get me? At least read what I said and consider these things cause not everyone has the money to be spending to have a random NON SKILL related death cause them the loss of their money in a close match.

This post is almost unreadable. I'm sorry, I don't usually do this, it may have very valid arguments (I tried reading the first half), and I'm not judging on that until I actually read it, but PLEASE space it out in a way that a normal person like me can read it. Paragraphs are your friend.

 

[Raziek]

Don't worry BPC, I got this.

Now I'm not too familiar with how the backroom deduces how a counterpick should be banned or things like that,

Excessive Randomness, Inconsistent Results, or Degenerate tactics, like circle camping, for the most part.

but with the block bombs; they're not a rare instance, and with some characters, even though it doesn't cause death, it DOES cause a meaningful amount of damage I forgot the number, someone correct me if I'm wrong (which I probably will be) but isn't it like 10-15% damage or something like that? Considering that the blocks aren't exactly a rare thing either, that's an additional amount of damage than what the opponent is really working for.

Honestly, I see little point in what you just typed. They blow up, they're obvious. DON'T GET BLOWN UP.

Now to keep things objective and NOT focus on the fact that people like to meat ride top tier, let's say characters that are already easy to gimp get counterpicked to green greens, like link. Again, mind you, I'm trying to consider ALL players because I know not many people use Link at all. The thing is that the bombs can cause a Link to get killed REALLY easily considering how easy it already is to gimp him or edge hog him. Again, consider that he's not the only character that has this problem as I'm sure you all know too well how the characters work. So add the amount of characters that are easy to gimp multiplied by the number of players that main those characters in tournament. Of course that's probably a minor factor.

Balance concerns have NO BEARING whatsoever on a stage's ban likelihood unless the people doing the banning are banning stages for the wrong reasons, or the imbalance is caused by degenerate tactics such as wall infinites (Shadow Moses) or Circle Camping (Temple). Link actually doesn't even do bad here lol. Short sides are GOOD for him.

Now the randomness of the blocks also causes some accidental options when a block falls on a plater that's grabbing the ledge and makes him/her let go. As we all know, this can be an obvious catalyst to death for many characters (or could cause some extreme luck where you actually EARN a kill [but that's way less likely to happen]). This is true for all characters.

Players should be aware of the risks upon entering a block-dropping zone. This point means nothing.

The fact with the items (apples) is that it adds a random subsequent change in the balance of the match. Some characters with items can just dominate the game with the obvious advantage of having a throwable item, and let's be realistic those same characters can usually get the items with far less effort of "I'm going to work hard to get it before my opponent gets it" than others. I really shouldn't need to give an example of that at all. I'd hate to be the guy that gets gayed out by repeated use of an item being thrown at me lol.

Hey, that's part of why it's a counterpick. If your character sucks with items, too bad, so sad.

also, if the randomly exploding apples weren't such a problem, than why not just allow empty capsules to be throw around as well? Sure it's rarer, but it's still a VERY existent possibility that players are aware of that could destroy their chances of winning a VERY hard worked for match, and even losing the set. And this can really **** on someone's day especially who just paid to lose to something RANDOM, where the best anyone can say to him/her is, "Oh well, sucks for you." You get me? At least read what I said and consider these things cause not everyone has the money to be spending to have a random NON SKILL related death cause them the loss of their money in a close match.

Nice Strawman bro. Items that spawn randomly and favor the losing player are NOT the same as apples that occasionally explode. You have no way of knowing if a capsule will explode or not until you hit someone with it, either. Once the danger of an apple exploding has passed (which is timed), there is nothing random about them.

I have a feeling you're new here. >_>

 

[Bug Style]

quoted from raziek's post (sorry my laptop messed this post up beyond belief color wise and crap) the purple is MY part of the post now
[/COLOR]
Excessive Randomness, Inconsistent Results, or Degenerate tactics, like circle camping, for the most part.
Honestly, I see little point in what you just typed. They blow up, they're obvious. DON'T GET BLOWN UP.

They're not obvious if I'm being forced to approach due to the stage's random dropping blocks. Even without that, just me jumping in general gives the opportunity to be hit by a random block spawning there regardless of how good of a jump it was with the worst case scenario being hit by an exploding block, which causes significant damage that can turn the tides of a match just based on an unlucky occurrence. Don't get blown up is like saying don't trip. It's out of your control unless you want to sacrifice REALLY good spacing options to like double jump or something which already puts you at a disadvantage because as it's WORLDLY known, approaching with a jump isn't exactly a great option.

Balance concerns have NO BEARING whatsoever on a stage's ban likelihood unless the people doing the banning are banning stages for the wrong reasons, or the imbalance is caused by degenerate tactics such as wall infinites (Shadow Moses) or Circle Camping (Temple). Link actually doesn't even do bad here lol. Short sides are GOOD for him.

Link was just an example, like I said, let's try to be objective to all characters here. And balance concerns have NO bearing? That's bull considering degenerate tactics are completely a BALANCE related reason that you guys ban a stage *batman is riding that elephant pretty hard*

Players should be aware of the risks upon entering a block-dropping zone. This point means nothing.

>_> word? that's so vague that it doesn't even count as a counter argument. To that I could just say players were aware of the risks of circle camping so that's why temple was banned. But I won't since it's a stupid direction to take the argument in in the first place. Specify first before shutting a thought down and you might actually learn a valid point other than your biased conjecture. Sure as a player I'd be AWARE of the exploding blocks or blocks in general, but that doesn't in any way mean I can avoid it without sacrificing my attention to my spacing or some other area. Also good job pointing out excessive randomness cause that's exactly what the blocks account for, ALONG with the bomb blocks. So if I go along with what you say then that should mean that pirate ship SHOULDN'T be banned either right? Unless there was some other reason I didn't quite catch, something gay like the front of the ship killing? I don't see cave of life OR circle camping there. The bombs that attack you aren't THAT random, and the catapult is so telegraphed they might as well just S.O.S. it to you. The tornado wind effect? 3 words, pokemon stadium two. Now not only does it contain excessive randomness in the blocks which CAN lead to death that involves no skill on the opponent's part, but there's also ANOTHER random factor being the apples that are much less likely to appear.


Hey, that's part of why it's a counterpick. If your character sucks with items, too bad, so sad.

Hmm, competitive tournament play? Or a biased back room trying to up the meta game? Instead of giving me a reasonable answer you give me what comes off to anyone else as the ladder. That may be fine for you, but to all of the people that pay money to play with characters that AREN'T high tier, that means a lot. (I main toon link by the way incase you wanted to do that stupid thing where you come back with a "you must main ganon huh?") I mean sure it's a counterpick, but like, you ban items but not stages with randomly spawning items? *sees a mach tornado with a basket of apples in the distance* oh ok I get it now...


Nice Strawman bro. Items that spawn randomly and favor the losing player are NOT the same as apples that occasionally explode. You have no way of knowing if a capsule will explode or not until you hit someone with it, either. Once the danger of an apple exploding has passed (which is timed), there is nothing random about them.

the fact that they're throwable and have hitboxes is enough. Item gimps anyone? Or the character who has obviously better spacing getting apples much more easily just cause it's easier for the character to do so. Now I thought the concept of banning stages with the cave of life was because players only had to really master teching and live for way longer than they ever should. So what about a stage where the character that can pick up items the easiest and use them much better has the advantage due to random occurrence? no? that doesn't warrant further consideration? hmm... *sees the basket of apples empty as some poor character was gimped by a character who isn't supposed to have items in the first place throwing the balance in his favor.* And there's nothing random about RANDOM apples appearing at a RANDOM time becoming RANDOM items? >________________> oh mai gah...

I have a feeling you're new here. >_>
Time doesn't account for intelligence m'boy. By the way; to get uber technical here, if it was hardly picked in MLG then why have it in the first place. I'd rather have it removed so I don't have to waste my ban on green greens from being scared that it MIGHT get picked and instead would like to use my ban on something more likely like RC or something

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

So guys. How do we justify pictochat? It seems excessively and brutally random, to the extent where it can be fairly game-changing.

 

[Raziek]

I don't know if I'd agree with "Excessively and brutally" random.

Even just looking at http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=270499, T-Block's old thread, while it IS ultimately somewhat random, you have until the transformation is drawn to get out of the way. (Airdodge on reaction, at least)

Obligatory safe zone picture, you can work around the stage.

On top of that, the only hazards that WILL kill you are pretty obvious and easy to avoid.

The side spikes are a joke, all you have to do is play defensive.

The vertical spikes are a bit more of a pain, but that transition is stalled out 90% of the time anyway.

The flower is dead center stage, so you can easily just camp it out, or if you're feeling ballsy, work it into your attack strategy.

The missiles are laughable, you can easily airdodge them, blow them up with projectiles, then keeping playing.

Honestly, probably the biggest offender is the diagonal line that randomly gimps recoveries.

All that said, I don't think it's random or game-changing enough to warrant a ban, and matches in tournament on Pictochat on the whole, tend to produce consistent results.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Well, that line is... well, I dunno. After seeing that match where a diddy literally got randomly gimped (1/27 chance of losing) in GF... I don't know if I'm willing to support this stage any more. It's simply very, very random and can do stupid things. The randomness will at the very least put you in a good/bad position compared to your opponent, at worse, flat-out kill you.

 

[Tesh]

I'd say the chance of the Face or the Line popping up right when you are recovering and killing you are about as bad as the support ghosting popping up and saving you on yoshi's island. Game changing, but apparently we allow it.

 

[Raziek]

Pictochat is a calculated risk, and the randomness equally affects both players. If you intend to select the stage, it's only fair you be aware of the risks.

 

[Tesh]

It doesn't really affect both player equally unless they stand in the same exact spot. Most of the time its going to force one player to do something defensive and give the other player a chance to capitalize. Often without the need for wise stage control and use of the safe area.