Official Stage Legality Discussion: Stage Specific

[Raziek]

I can see your point, but that's still something to be AWARE of. I've played Picto plenty and I can honestly say I've never cursed my stage choice because of the randomness.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Just played a round on Big Blue with Ubermario. From what I saw there... its enabling of stalling is broken to the point where it just can't qualify.

Thought I'd let ya know.

 

[Raziek]

So, funny story. At the tournament I attended Saturday, I CP'd Picto.

Missile spawned on me, I DI'd down during my airdodge in a desperate attempt to avoid it, and died at ~30% for my stupidity.

Doesn't change my stance on the stage, but DAT KARMA.

 

[Espy Rose]

Don't worry about it too much, Raziek.
I lost a doubles set in loser's bracket because the spikes spawned right below me while I was edgeguarding a Snake.

It happens, but I'm still going to keep CPing there.

 

[sunshade]

So I was thinking wario ware should be a legal counterpick. The stage due to it being a counterpick can only be selected by a player that just lost their match. Therefore like pictochat you are aware of the risk in selecting the stage. If it aids you then that is the reward for taking the risk of selection and if it hinders you that is the cost of your selection.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

So, funny story. At the tournament I attended Saturday, I CP'd Picto.

Missile spawned on me, I DI'd down during my airdodge in a desperate attempt to avoid it, and died at ~30% for my stupidity.

Doesn't change my stance on the stage, but DAT KARMA.

Don't worry about it too much, Raziek.
I lost a doubles set in loser's bracket because the spikes spawned right below me while I was edgeguarding a Snake.

It happens, but I'm still going to keep CPing there.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. The inconsistencies on the stage can be very, very dumb. Why do we legalize it? It is heavily randomizing.

So I was thinking wario ware should be a legal counterpick. The stage due to it being a counterpick can only be selected by a player that just lost their match. Therefore like pictochat you are aware of the risk in selecting the stage. If it aids you then that is the reward for taking the risk of selection and if it hinders you that is the cost of your selection.

...

I really hope you're not serious.

 

[chaosmaster1991]

...

I really hope you're not serious.

Heh why not? Seriously it's so random, you'd have to be really desperate to use it as your CP, and in that case, you'll lose game 3 anyway.

Not saying that it should be a CP, just that it probably wouldn't make much of a difference.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. The inconsistencies on the stage can be very, very dumb. Why do we legalize it? It is heavily randomizing.

All hazards can be avoided by sticking to the bottom left of the main platform, sans the part where spikes appear.

 

[ADHD]

About 2/3rds of the cast can be caught in a wall infinite by DDD, provided they were too stupid to break down the block walls before approaching him in the center.

I love taking the time to do something completely unnecessary.

 

[Espy Rose]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. The inconsistencies on the stage can be very, very dumb. Why do we legalize it? It is heavily randomizing.

I'd rather blame my decision to CP Pictochat over blaming Pictochat itself.
I should've known that the stage was preparing to change form, and should've stayed in a safe zone instead of jumping in the air, where I'd be vulnerable to stage changes.

Not sure about Raziek though, but that's how I feel about my event.

Pictochat didn't KO me. I KO'd me. What I did was no better than intentionally jumping or running in front of the cars on Port Town Aero Drive, or leaping into Halberd's cannonball/laser.

 

[UberMario]

So I was thinking wario ware should be a legal counterpick. The stage due to it being a counterpick can only be selected by a player that just lost their match. Therefore like pictochat you are aware of the risk in selecting the stage. If it aids you then that is the reward for taking the risk of selection and if it hinders you that is the cost of your selection.

The main reason it's banned is because, even with the items shut off, the characters can still get rewarded with item bonuses, such as invinicibility or becoming super spized, but at the same time you may get nothing, since one of the rewards is supposed to be an item spawn, which of course doesn't happen because the items are off. If these bonuses were gone (or Warioware had a "frozen" mode where no mini-games ever occured), it might have been a possible CP.

 

[Tesh]

So I was thinking wario ware should be a legal counterpick. The stage due to it being a counterpick can only be selected by a player that just lost their match. Therefore like pictochat you are aware of the risk in selecting the stage. If it aids you then that is the reward for taking the risk of selection and if it hinders you that is the cost of your selection.

By this same logic, why don't we just turn items on for match 2 at the loser's request. Its a calculated risk and if it aids you thats your reward for taking the risk of selection and if it hinders you, that is the cost of your selection. There is even a safe zone from items. Ledge camping/ being in the air. And if you don't stay in that safe zone when an item pops up, thats your fault.

IF warioware was frozen without the minigames, it would obviously be a starter. The rewards on warioware may be a little broken (invincibility) but the reason its horrible is because its a random reward for completing the same task at the same exact time. In fact, without the invincibility, the stages would probably be legal. The chance of getting food isn't remotely worth the chance of turning into a huge target and being unable to get out of uptilt/throw combos for 20 seconds.

 

[Raziek]

I'd rather blame my decision to CP Pictochat over blaming Pictochat itself.
I should've known that the stage was preparing to change form, and should've stayed in a safe zone instead of jumping in the air, where I'd be vulnerable to stage changes.

Not sure about Raziek though, but that's how I feel about my event.

Pictochat didn't KO me. I KO'd me. What I did was no better than intentionally jumping or running in front of the cars on Port Town Aero Drive, or leaping into Halberd's cannonball/laser.

This is exactly it. I wasn't paying attention, put myself in a danger zone, and instead of staying calm, taking the hit, and DI'ing correctly, I panicked and died for my bad decision.

 

[UberMario]

Of the currently banned stages:
-75m
-Big Blue
-Bridge of Eldin
-Corneria (Melee)
-Flat Zone 2
-Green Hill Zone
-Hanenbow
-Mario Bros.
-Mario Circuit
-Mushroomy Kingdom (1-1 and 1-2)
-New Pork City
-Onett (Melee)
-Rumble Falls
-Shadow Moses Island
-Skyworld
-Spear Pillar
-Summit
-Temple (Melee)
-WarioWare, Inc.
-Custom Stages

Does anyone think ANY of these have a chance of becoming at least Group III Counterpick material?

From playing, I think the following stages have a chance (however small it may be) of becoming legal counterpicks, these are listed from the ones I personally think have the highest chance to the least [if they have a chance, that is]:

Most likely [IF any more are added]:
-Hanenbow: Easily the most underrated stage in the game, it has a main three-level stage, with a platform to the left and a smaller set of platforms near the top left, I'd rate this as competitively useful as many of the Group TWO stages (in particular Rainbow Cruise and Pictochat)
-Green Hill Zone: It was once legal, but the checkpoint post got it banned [plus the walkoffs]. However, the sloped sides can stop most chain grabs and the posts can be waited out [especially since they disappear after two-to-three uses]. I think this is pretty fair, and it helps characters that are reliant more on side kills.
-Skyworld: This stage is decent, the only problems are that the ledges can be "strategically" removed, there's a small cave of life effect [which is actually a disadvantage more than a benefit for most characters], and characters with multiple jumps will be able to survive stage spikes.
-Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1: A good, slow-moving scroller, but it's a DeDeDe paradise . . . .

Meh:
-Corneria: The wing gives a lot of characters an advantage, but so do plenty of already legal counterpicks. The lasers/arwings don't really affect gameplay to any degree.
-Bridge of Eldin: The main problem with the stage is it's shear size and walkoffs, but otherwise it's like a gigantic FD that extends beyond the kill zone. The enemies are negligible and all of the characters can make it across the gap or wait it out pretty well.
-Mario Circuit: Camping and Chain Grab games are too over powered, but it still is good for fights

Close to none:
-Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2: The ceiling that occurs for most of the stage makes it heavily reliant of side kills . . . .
-Onett: Wall infinites, 'nuff said. Though the cars partially break them, it's still a bit overcentralizing.
-Summit: Another somewhat underrated stage, the lack of ledges really hurts any chances of it becoming legal (as this really strengthens characters reliant on gimps and ledge games, like Falco), but otherwise it's pretty decent. If it weren't for the IKO floor [when it slides] and the fish, I'd think this would have a good shot, considering there are icicles that grow to prevent the cave-of-life effect, however I don't believe this has any chance really . . . . .

No chance:
-Big Blue: A temporary cave-of-life can occur under the Falcon Flyer, circle camping can become extreme.
-Spear Pillar: The cave-of-life, Cresselia, and circle camping are terrible, though lasers are easy to deal with and the effects are far from problematic, they obviously don't excuse the issues this stage has.
-New Pork City: Too big
-Warioware: Luck isn't too much of a factor, but it still exists
-Rumble Falls: It moves too fast, plus the spikes IKO . . . . .
-Shadow Moses Island: Overly reliant on wall infinites and top-kills.
-Temple: Cave of Life, circle camping, and the size.
-Mario Bros: Too unorthodox, and reflectors are broken
-75m: Do I really need to say why? Ladders, enemies, ledges, and walkoffs galore, plus it's too big.
-Flat Zone 2: By far the worst offender, you only have to see it's small size and end up in the "Lion mode" to see how horrific gameplay can get, "Oil Panic mode" isn't far behind.

I'll bring up the custom stage info/ideas in the custom stage legalization thread.

(In case anyone was curious about how I would "tier" the legal stages [plus some of the above], it would be like this:

Spoiler

=====
Starters:
=====

Group 1:
-Smashville
-Battlefield
-Yoshi's Island [Brawl]

Group 2:
-Lylat Cruise
-Halberd
-Pokemon Stadium 2

Group 3:
-Final Destination
-Delfino Plaza
-Frigate Orpheon
-Pokemon Stadium

========
Counterpicks:
========

Group 1:
-Brinstar
-Norfair
-Port Town Aero Dive
-Distant Planet

Group 2:
-Castle Siege
-Jungle Japes
-Green Greens
-Hanenbow*

Group 3:
-Green Hill Zone*
-Luigi's Mansion
-Rainbow Cruise

Group 4:
-Skyworld*
-Corneria*
-Yoshi's Island [Melee]
-Pirate Ship

Group 5:
-Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1*
-Bridge of Eldin*
-Pictochat
-Mario Circuit*

If anyone has opinions on this listing please say them.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

-Hanenbow: Easily the most underrated stage in the game, it has a main three-level stage, with a platform to the left and a smaller set of platforms near the top left, I'd rate this as competitively useful as many of the Group TWO stages (in particular Rainbow Cruise and Pictochat)

Three level stage? Aren't there 6 levels (bottom leaf, 3 levels on the big tree and 2 on the small tree that hangs from the top)?

There's also the fact:
It's huge.
You can circle camp (I heard this somewhere)

-Green Hill Zone: It was once legal, but the checkpoint post got it banned [plus the walkoffs]. However, the sloped sides can stop most chain grabs and the posts can be waited out [especially since they disappear after two-to-three uses]. I think this is pretty fair, and it helps characters that are reliant more on side kills.

Checkpoint camping is still a viable strategy, and I'm pretty sure they last longer than two hits.

Also, there are double permanet walkoffs. You can simply camp & throw people off the edge.

-Skyworld: This stage is decent, the only problems are that the ledges can be "strategically" removed, there's a small cave of life effect [which is actually a disadvantage more than a benefit for most characters], and characters with multiple jumps will be able to survive stage spikes.

There are two reasons (I think) on why this is banned:

Keep the solid platforms and caves of life are nearly everywhere.
Remove them, and you're stuck with no lodges, making it as legal as summit.

-Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1: A good, slow-moving scroller, but it's a DeDeDe paradise . . . .

Not only that, there are walkoffs everywhere & you can't grab ledges.

-Bridge of Eldin: The main problem with the stage is it's shear size and walkoffs, but otherwise it's like a gigantic FD that extends beyond the kill zone. The enemies are negligible and all of the characters can make it across the gap or wait it out pretty well.

Those two reasons you gave (the negative ones, I mean) are perfectly good reasons to keep a stage banned. Also, extreme camping in can happen when the bridge splits in two, even though most characters can go across the stage.

-Corneria: The wing gives a lot of characters an advantage, but so do plenty of already legal counterpicks. The lasers/arwings don't really affect gameplay to any degree.

This is one where I agree with you. Now that infineties are limited to up to 300%, why should we ban a stage because of one permanet wall?

-Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2: The ceiling that occurs for most of the stage makes it heavily reliant of side kills . . . .

Also, when on top of the ceiling, you can UThrow for OHKO

-Onett: Wall infinites, 'nuff said. Though the cars partially break them, it's still a bit overcentralizing.

Onett's main problem is camping, not infinities.

To me, this is a stage that needs testing. Theorycrafying won't help you here.

-Summit: Another somewhat underrated stage, the lack of ledges really hurts any chances of it becoming legal (as this really strengthens characters reliant on gimps and ledge games, like Falco), but otherwise it's pretty decent. If it weren't for the IKO floor [when it slides] and the fish, I'd think this would have a good shot, considerig there are icicles that grow to prevent the cave-of-life effect, however I don't believe this has any chance really . . . . .

This place has too many "bannable" factors. I'm surprised you didn't put this in the no chance section.

I agree with your "no chance" section.

 

[UberMario]

@ubermario

I find is odd that you are avaunt stages because of CoL, yet skyworld has a cave of life.

Yes, but as I mentioned, Skyworld's cave of life is not that good, in fact, missing a tech is almost certain death for most characters [due to the relatively small size of the ceiling in comparison with most cave-of-lifes], and if they survive, they are in a vulnerable position [potentially for another attempt by the opponent to stage spike the player that survived]. Most cave of lives give strong benefits and are in locations where even if you miss, you can still survive by teching off something else.

Three level stage? Aren't there 6 levels (bottom leaf, 3 levels on the big tree and 2 on the small tree that hangs from the top)?

-Hanenbow: Easily the most underrated stage in the game, it has a main three-level stage, with a platform to the left and a smaller set of platforms near the top left, I'd rate this as competitively useful as many of the Group TWO stages (in particular Rainbow Cruise and Pictochat)

It's huge.

You can circle camp (I heard this somewhere)

It's around the size of Rainbow Cruise mid-scroll, but doesn't move.

Checkpoint camping is still a viable strategy, and I'm pretty sure they last longer than two hits.

They are set on a timer IIRC, and whn I've camped they only lasted around three full hits.

Also, there are double permanet walkoffs. You van simply camp & throw people off the edge.

While not as permanent, this also applies to Castle Siege and Delfino Plaza, two starter stages.

Keep the solid platforms and caves of life are nearly everywhere.
Remove them, and you're stuck with no lodges, making it as legal as summit.

For the most part, they are only destroyed if a player wants them to be, since they take quite a bit of damage, just like Brinstar's "bondings", also, the only two notable cave of lifes are the one under the left platform, and the main platform.

The one on the left requires incredibly fast teching and EVEN THEN it leaves the player in a very vulnerable position [since they are pretty much where they were hit from], and as I said, the center cave-of-life usually results in one of two things if not teched: bankshot to the right resulting in a bottom ko, or the player being left in a vulnerable position. If the player teched, the jump is small enough for the aggressor to use an aerial straight after the defender gets out of their "invincibility".

Not only that, there are walkoffs everywhere & you can't grab ledges.

Those two reasons you gave (the negative ones, I mean) are perfectly good reasons to keep a stage banned. Also, extreme camping in can happen when the bridge splits in two, even though most characters can go across the stage.

Not denying either of these claims, I placed them in "the" lowest [legal and 5th] bracket anyway [along with Pictochat and Mario Circuit] and Skyworld only one above it [in the fourth group, with Yoshi's Island-Melee, Corneria, and Pirate Ship].

Onett's main problem is camping, not infinities.

To me, this is a stage that needs testing. Theorycrafying won't help you here

I beg to differ, wall infinites, such as jablocks, chain grabs, and the like, are far more influencing on the stage than just camping. I don't think this will become legal anyway.

This place has too many "bannable" factors. I'm surprised you didn't put this in the no chance section.

I agree with your "no chance" section.

If you noticed, in my "stage tier list", none of the stages I had in the "close to none" section were there, it was basically the same thing as the "no chance" section, but gameplay was slightly more possible to do. The Summit is no where near as unviable as 75m, but it still is unviable.

 

[-Vocal-]

Most likely [IF any more are added]:
-Hanenbow: Easily the most underrated stage in the game, it has a main three-level stage, with a platform to the left and a smaller set of platforms near the top left, I'd rate this as competitively useful as many of the Group TWO stages (in particular Rainbow Cruise and Pictochat)
-Green Hill Zone: It was once legal, but the checkpoint post got it banned [plus the walkoffs]. However, the sloped sides can stop most chain grabs and the posts can be waited out [especially since they disappear after two-to-three uses]. I think this is pretty fair, and it helps characters that are reliant more on side kills.
-Skyworld: This stage is decent, the only problems are that the ledges can be "strategically" removed, there's a small cave of life effect [which is actually a disadvantage more than a benefit for most characters], and characters with multiple jumps will be able to survive stage spikes.
-Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1: A good, slow-moving scroller, but it's a DeDeDe paradise . . . ..

Hanenbow: Two words. Circle. Camping. It's a problem and it's real. If everyone plays Pit or Metaknight then maybe this stage could work...but no.

Green Hill Zone: You forgot to mention how the stage disappears beneath your feet. In addition, Olimar would love to camp the two walkoffs, especially since he's the only one that grab up and down angles. Other people would like this too.

Skyworld:

That, and the opposite, that being the cave of life :/

Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1: There are blocks that give items. Also, competitive Smash is not a sidescroller. Occasionally it may resemble a platformer, but it should never be a sidescroller. Plus constant walkoff in both direction, requiring you to space against your opponent and a constantly moving stage. Just not a good idea.

I didn't list the others here as you already know they haven't a snowball's chance.

 

[UberMario]

The blocks don't give items if you actually have them off, just like with Peach's DownB and DeDeDe's Side B, turning the item frequency to none won't prevent them from pulling out items, only shutting them off will.

Circle Camping can occur on plenty of already-legal stages:
-Castle Siege [transformation specific]
-Port Town [transformation specific]
-Delfino Plaza [transformation specific]
-Rainbow Cruise [time specific]
-Distant Planet [to a degree]
-Luigi's Mansion
-Pirate Ship
-Brinstar [to a degree]
-Lylat Cruise [barely]
-Battlefield [very barely]
And if scrooging counts, Smashville aswell.

The most notable ones here are Rainbow Cruise, Castle Siege, and Luigi's Mansion, which have just as much circle-camping potential as Hanenbow. Delfino and Brinstar aren't far behind.

The ceiling tech thing was what I was talking about, on most stages with a cave-of-life, it's not necessary to survive [until you get to around 300%+], on Skyworld, it's actually important, and as I said, the disappearance of the ledge(s) is usually caused intentionally by a player, either that or they liked to use a lot of low-hitting attacks.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

Firstly, what vocal said.

It's around the size of Rainbow Cruise mid-scroll, but doesn't move.

No, it's much bigger.

While not as permanent, this also applies to Castle Siege and Delfino Plaza, two starter stages.

However, temporary walkoffs are Almost completely different things, in terms of legality. Temporary walkoffs mean that you don't have to face the problems of walkoffs for 8 Minutes, unlike permanet walkoffs.

I beg to differ, wall infinites, such as jablocks, chain grabs, and the like, are far more influencing on the stage than just camping. I don't think this will become legal anyway.

You seem to be ignoring camping, as it's "not the most important thing". It's still a factor.

If you noticed, in my "stage tier list", none of the stages I had in the "close to none" section were there, it was basically the same thing as the "no chance" section, but gameplay was slightly more possible to do. The Summit is no where near as unviable as 75m, but it still is unviable.

Oh, okay then.

Circle Camping can occur on plenty of already-legal stages:
-Castle Siege [transformation specific]
-Port Town [transformation specific]
-Delfino Plaza [transformation specific]
-Rainbow Cruise [time specific]

Temporary circle camping is different from regular circle camping, as you can't circle camp forever

-Distant Planet [to a degree]
-Brinstar [to a degree]
-Lylat Cruise [barely]
-Battlefield [very barely]

To a degree is different from circle camping on stages like spear pillar, where the circle's massive, and it's easy to do.

-Luigi's Mansion
-Pirate Ship

First off, I've never seen anybody circle camp on pirate ship. Ever.

While circle camping on WeeGee's mansion seems legit, nobody's ever shown a vid of somebody circle camping there.

 

[Raziek]

-75m - Circle Camping, general unpleasantness and interference.
-Big Blue - Circle camping.
-Bridge of Eldin - Run-away is far too dominant, two permanent walk-offs.
-Corneria (Melee) - Fin camping, permanent wall.
-Flat Zone 2 - Excessive hazard interference, permanent walk-offs.
-Green Hill Zone - Two permanent walk-offs, stage disappears from under your feet. If anything, this would be one of the few I'm make legal.
-Hanenbow - Circle camping.
-Mario Bros. - Mario Bros. Nuff said.
-Mario Circuit - This one is also dubious. Two permanent walk-offs that are near unapproachable when camped under = bad news.
-Mushroomy Kingdom (1-1 and 1-2) - Walk-offs, walls, Cave of life (1-2)
-New Pork City - Circle Camping.
-Onett (Melee) - Also pretty dubious. Permanent walls and walk-offs EVERYWHERE hurts it.
-Rumble Falls - Mild circle camping, excessive strength at the chokepoint. Somewhat plausible, but EXTREMELY unorthdox.
-Shadow Moses Island - Two semi-permanent (May as well be permanent) walls that turn into walk-offs.
-Skyworld - Cave of life, or miss a tech and die. Somewhat degenerate gameplay.
-Spear Pillar - Circle camping, cave of life.
-Summit - Mild circle camping, instant kill hazard with little means to avoid it vs. some characters.
-Temple (Melee) - Circle camping.
-WarioWare, Inc. - Over-intrusive randomness.
-Custom Stages - Entirely doable, someone just has to actually give them a shot. Probably me.

Answers appended.

 

[UberMario]

I'm not sure what you and BPC see in Rumble Falls to be quite honest . . . . . what is so plausible about it?

 

[Raziek]

The fact there isn't really anything THAT horribly offensive or gamebreaking about the stage. It's just significantly different from traditional gameplay, and some would argue the matches on Rumble Falls often revolve more around keeping up with the stage than fighting your opponent.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I love taking the time to do something completely unnecessary.

It's not completely unnecessary. It's like saying "I love taking the time to not fall to my death on Rainbow Cruise". The blocks are there, if you are unwilling to take the time to interact with the stage and destroy them, then you have to take a serious risk by going over them and dealing with the walls from the center. Similarly to luigi's mansion-nobody forces you to interact with the stage, but if you're a smart player who is playing to win, you'd better ****ing do it!

I'd rather blame my decision to CP Pictochat over blaming Pictochat itself.
I should've known that the stage was preparing to change form, and should've stayed in a safe zone instead of jumping in the air, where I'd be vulnerable to stage changes.

Not sure about Raziek though, but that's how I feel about my event.

Pictochat didn't KO me. I KO'd me. What I did was no better than intentionally jumping or running in front of the cars on Port Town Aero Drive, or leaping into Halberd's cannonball/laser.

I really don't know how far I can agree with this... IMO, pictochat should be banned for matchup inconsistencies. It is probably the second-worst stage regarding such things after Warioware.

Of the currently banned stages:
-Mario Bros.
-Onett (Melee)
-Skyworld
-Custom Stages

Does anyone think ANY of these have a chance of becoming at least Group III Counterpick material?

Potentially. Mario Bros doesn't exactly have a proven problem; it's really banned because people don't like gameplay on the stage. Onett has the walkoffs and walls, but the cars give you a nice way to interrupt that and forces your opponent out of a neutral stance, which is good for approaches. Skyworld... meh, I never really got why it was banned.

From playing, I think the following stages have a chance (however small it may be) of becoming legal counterpicks, these are listed from the ones I personally think have the highest chance to the least [if they have a chance, that is]:

Most likely [IF any more are added]:
-Hanenbow: Easily the most underrated stage in the game, it has a main three-level stage, with a platform to the left and a smaller set of platforms near the top left, I'd rate this as competitively useful as many of the Group TWO stages (in particular Rainbow Cruise and Pictochat)

Circle camping.

-Green Hill Zone: It was once legal, but the checkpoint post got it banned [plus the walkoffs]. However, the sloped sides can stop most chain grabs and the posts can be waited out [especially since they disappear after two-to-three uses]. I think this is pretty fair, and it helps characters that are reliant more on side kills.

Permanent, slope-less walkoff camping is almost always a viable ban criteria. Walkoff camping that functions unhindered is simply too strong to be legal.

-Skyworld: This stage is decent, the only problems are that the ledges can be "strategically" removed, there's a small cave of life effect [which is actually a disadvantage more than a benefit for most characters], and characters with multiple jumps will be able to survive stage spikes.

/Agree

-Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1: A good, slow-moving scroller, but it's a DeDeDe paradise . . . .

Permanent walkoffs, tons of walls... No way.

-Corneria: The wing gives a lot of characters an advantage, but so do plenty of already legal counterpicks. The lasers/arwings don't really affect gameplay to any degree.

It's less "gives advantage" and more "is about as beatable as circle camping". Seriously, many chars are simply unbeatable due to the fin.

-Bridge of Eldin: The main problem with the stage is it's shear size and walkoffs, but otherwise it's like a gigantic FD that extends beyond the kill zone. The enemies are negligible and all of the characters can make it across the gap or wait it out pretty well.

See GHZ. Also, falco.

-Mario Circuit: Camping and Chain Grab games are too over powered, but it still is good for fights

This was looked into; walkoff camping was just too **** good.

-Onett: Wall infinites, 'nuff said. Though the cars partially break them, it's still a bit overcentralizing.

The infinites are constantly broken down by the cars. The walkoff camping is equally forced to pause for a moment to jump over, block, or dodge the cars.

I'm not sure what you and BPC see in Rumble Falls to be quite honest . . . . . what is so plausible about it?

It's underrated but I don't actually support it. Too many chars just can't deal with others at the choke point.

 

[T-block]

Well, that line is... well, I dunno. After seeing that match where a diddy literally got randomly gimped (1/27 chance of losing) in GF... I don't know if I'm willing to support this stage any more. It's simply very, very random and can do stupid things. The randomness will at the very least put you in a good/bad position compared to your opponent, at worse, flat-out kill you.

Aww I was late to the Pictochat party.

I'll default to my usual argument - does this occurrence really affect more matches than the ghost on Yoshi's Island?

 

[ぱみゅ]

Aww I was late to the Pictochat party.

I'll default to my usual argument - does this occurrence really affect more matches than the ghost on Yoshi's Island?

Looks that randomly killing is more powerful than randomly let someone survive, but meh. Stage itself don't give any kind advantage to characters, but it's a huge advantage for players that knows the stage agains people that doesn't.
I don't see any problem in the stage.


As for the legality discussion, only Onett is fairly plausible, imo, since cars interrupts any kind of infinites and camping.

 

[-LzR-]

Pictochat has the same randomness as stages like PS1 or PS2. It doesn't change the game and are avoidable and and reward the player who knows the stage greatly.

 

[Grizzer]

is it really the case that you guys got bored of the game itself already and are deciding to throw in even more stupid stages to compensate? just l2p on neutrals and dont rely on gay counterpicks

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

is it really the case that you guys got bored of the game itself already and are deciding to throw in even more stupid stages to compensate? just l2p on neutrals and dont rely on gay counterpicks

Stereotypical scrub.

 

[ADHD]

The fact there isn't really anything THAT horribly offensive or gamebreaking about the stage. It's just significantly different from traditional gameplay, and some would argue the matches on Rumble Falls often revolve more around keeping up with the stage than fighting your opponent.

It is a down-right TERRIBLE stage and I'm going to come back and list the *********** of why you should never play here in tournament. It should not even be questioned, my god. If you play the game you can come up with a list of your own. .

Everyone here wants every stage and for no legitimate reason because it does not affect them, there is only about 1 person amongst you who would actually be playing on it. It doesn't make you a smash martyr, you're just really.. wasting your time.

 

[-Vocal-]

The blocks don't give items if you actually have them off, just like with Peach's DownB and DeDeDe's Side B, turning the item frequency to none won't prevent them from pulling out items, only shutting them off will.

Circle Camping can occur on plenty of already-legal stages:
-Castle Siege [transformation specific]
-Port Town [transformation specific]
-Delfino Plaza [transformation specific]
-Rainbow Cruise [time specific]
-Distant Planet [to a degree]
-Luigi's Mansion
-Pirate Ship
-Brinstar [to a degree]
-Lylat Cruise [barely]
-Battlefield [very barely]
And if scrooging counts, Smashville aswell.

The most notable ones here are Rainbow Cruise, Castle Siege, and Luigi's Mansion, which have just as much circle-camping potential as Hanenbow. Delfino and Brinstar aren't far behind.

The ceiling tech thing was what I was talking about, on most stages with a cave-of-life, it's not necessary to survive [until you get to around 300%+], on Skyworld, it's actually important, and as I said, the disappearance of the ledge(s) is usually caused intentionally by a player, either that or they liked to use a lot of low-hitting attacks.

Circle camping? RC? No. Delfino? Where? DP has always been questionable, but nowhere near Hanenbow levels. PS - what? How what when where? Brinstar - seriously? Lylat and Battlefield?? You trollin. You can't call it circle camping unless you can safely go in a circle. People can cut right across many of these stages, and RC doesn't let you go in a circle (just run away). Hanenbow, on the other hand, has a large, gaping circle that many characters could not catch other players on. Basically the only way is if you play someone with multiple jumps. Castle Siege is questionable to a degree, but it's still very possible to catch someone there, not to mention the transformation is temporary.

And there are many characters that like to use low hitting attacks and would inadvertantly destroy the floor. ZSS, for instance, who coincidentally relies on a tether recovery. Basically any Dsmash will tear at them, as well as just moves that extend below the character (many dash attacks, for example). It truly is easy to destroy the stage without even trying - play there and you'll see for yourself. It essentially turns the game into something it's not supposed to be - a teching contest.

is it really the case that you guys got bored of the game itself already and are deciding to throw in even more stupid stages to compensate? just l2p on neutrals and dont rely on gay counterpicks

Steryotypical scrub.

Nah, just stereotypical Diddy player. It's somehow just a coincidence that all of them prefer flat stages

 

[Raziek]

It is a down-right TERRIBLE stage and I'm going to come back and list the *********** of why you should never play here in tournament. It should not even be questioned, my god. If you play the game you can come up with a list of your own. .

Everyone here wants every stage and for no legitimate reason because it does not affect them, there is only about 1 person amongst you who would actually be playing on it. It doesn't make you a smash martyr, you're just really.. wasting your time.

Can you read? I don't advocate it for tournament play, BECAUSE of those reasons. I just said that all things considered, it isn't COMPLETELY horrendous.

 

[Espy Rose]

Can you read? I don't advocate it for tournament play, BECAUSE of those reasons. I just said that all things considered, it isn't COMPLETELY horrendous.

Remember who you're talking to.

 

[Grizzer]

Nah, just stereotypical Diddy player. It's somehow just a coincidence that all of them prefer flat stages

that really isnt even the case, those stages just... don't

 

[-Vocal-]

that really isnt even the case, those stages just... don't

I am willing to entertain you, because conversation is the best way to solve problems and possible come to an agreement.

Name for me some "gay" counterpick stages and what makes them so "gay."

 

[ADHD]

Can you read? I don't advocate it for tournament play, BECAUSE of those reasons. I just said that all things considered, it isn't COMPLETELY horrendous.

I was referring to BPC.

 

[Raziek]

I was referring to BPC.

Yet quoted me?

 

[ADHD]

Yet quoted me?

To a quote that was discussing Rumble Falls to BPC.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

ADHD, it''s usually implied that quoting someone=talking to that person.

 

[ADHD]

ADHD, it''s usually implied that quoting someone=talking to that person.

It's also implied that one apostrophe be used to shorten "it is" instead of two.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

It's also implied that one apostrophe be used to shorten "it is" instead of two.

And........