Official Stage Legality Discussion: Stage Specific

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Norfair is great, but honestly, what that stage needs right now, is someone looking into the "Random" elements more closely. I mean, I hear they're non-random, but even then, how are they non-random? How does the average smasher predict them? We need a big fat guide on norfair... Which I will sincerely hope someone else will do because it's going to be a nightmare.

 

[Raziek]

I may tackle this at some point, though all it would really entail is condensing Judo's guide into a nice, easy to read format.

Long story short: When did the last thing happen? Take that time, add 30 seconds, and watch your ***. (Lava Floor moving doesn't count, but it follows a pattern) If you get a Lava Wave, shift the timer by about 10 seconds, and continue to watch your ***.

 

[UberMario]

I agree that Norfair is one of the most fun competitive stages to mess with stage-inexperienced tourney goers, though if I want to "troll" a competitiors lack of counterpick knowledge I take them to my REAL favorite tourney-legal stage, Port Town Aero Dive, pushing people into the paths of cars I could already see coming earlier is just too good. XD

 

[Timic83]

can someone explain to me how yoshis island melee shouldnt be banned cos i think its preposterous that anyone could even consider it

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

You're working backwards. Gimme some reasons for it to be banned. Stages are, after all, innocent until proven guilty. Tell us-why should we ban the stage? Keep in mind that DDD's chaingrab only works up the walkoff on 6 members of the cast, 4 of which don't matter (3 bottom tiers and DK), and the other two are Lucario and Wolf, who get ***** by him anyways.

 

[ぱみゅ]

can someone explain to me how yoshis island melee shouldnt be banned cos i think its preposterous that anyone could even consider it

"Why should it be?" is the real question here.

imo, its only problem is being too small, and that Olimar is retardedly broken (is a Cp afterall, get him on Rainbow Cruise).
Other than that, I see it as a nice stage, and the only legal stage where MK does have trouble in.

EDIT. lol ninja'd

 

[Raziek]

Olimar is stupid good here, but no worse than MK on RC.

It's a legitimate stage.

 

[-Vocal-]

The only stage where walkoff camping is an Olimar specific tactic That said, I don't really know of Olimars that would choose to go here over other stages, though maybe it just needs more time. At any rate, as Raziek pointed out, he's not any worse than MK on RC. (That's silly logic since I think that MK + RC isn't a fair condition to put up with, but if that fits the standard of competitiveness then so does this.)

It's a unique cp to be sure, but that doesn't mean that it should be banned. It doesn't change gameplay in a significant enough manner to warrant it imo.

 

[Tesh]

Olimar would probably love this stage. Even though I think walkoff camping here isn't much of an issue because of the slopes (i think every character would have safe on shield aerials against people above them). The fact that he never has to be "offstage" and he kills off the top VERY well.

 

[-Vocal-]

Olimar would probably love this stage.

Even though I think walkoff camping here isn't much of an issue because of the slopes

Olimar is the only character that can grab up and down slopes, such as the ones here and that huge mudpile on PS2. Get at us

 

[Tesh]

What I'm saying is, most characters slide down the slope during the ending lag of their moves. Olimar has a somewhat slow grab and against many characters might not be able to grab them out of a spaced fast fallen aerial.

I believe there was a thread about it maybe last year. Characters like Snake, Falcon, Fox, DDD, , Marth, Squirtle, Link, IKE will slide very quickly down the slope when they fast fall. At that angle, Ike, Marth, and Link would definitely not get shieldgrabbed.

I'm saying it shouldn't be banned ofcourse. With all of the other tricks other characters can pull off here, I don't think Olimar would be overpowered here.

 

[-Vocal-]

What I'm saying is, most characters slide down the slope during the ending lag of their moves. Olimar has a somewhat slow grab and against many characters might not be able to grab them out of a spaced fast fallen aerial.

I believe there was a thread about it maybe last year. Characters like Snake, Falcon, Fox, DDD, , Marth, Squirtle, Link, IKE will slide very quickly down the slope when they fast fall. At that angle, Ike, Marth, and Link would definitely not get shieldgrabbed.

I'm saying it shouldn't be banned ofcourse. With all of the other tricks other characters can pull off here, I don't think Olimar would be overpowered here.

Not in the least. Sure, it's a stage that requires specific stage knowledge and strategies but I'd say it's pretty balanced. I'd say it's just much easier to get kills as certain characters, which might also be alleviated by the "tech everything" factor; I truly haven't played on the stage enough ot say definitely.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Olimar is broken on pipes beyond belief. It's leagues and leagues above any other possibly legal stage for him, if it's on. The slopes make Olimar even more incredible, making it extremely hard to approach him. No off stage area means he always has somewhere to run which yeah. You get it. Low ceiling, potential usmash combos with the yellow blocks. Olimar is the best character on Pipes. Trust me. Trust me.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Olimar is broken on pipes beyond belief. It's leagues and leagues above any other possibly legal stage for him, if it's on. The slopes make Olimar even more incredible, making it extremely hard to approach him. No off stage area means he always has somewhere to run which yeah. You get it. Low ceiling, potential usmash combos with the yellow blocks. Olimar is the best character on Pipes. Trust me. Trust me.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with any part of this beyond the first sentence. What's his next-best stage, FD?

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Mansion if it's legal. Then Distant Planet if it's legal, lol. Then most of the other "usually banned" stages. Then like Delfino and Halberd, probably. FD's way down the list under a lot of others. But yeah, Olimar is amazing on stages that are usually illegal, haha.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

How amazing. I'm going to say, just randomly, take MK on RC as a baseline of "this is where it stops being okay". Would Oli be that far on YI(M)? If so, by how much?

 

[Tesh]

Its definitely not the same as MK on RC. Alot of already good characters are even better on pipes. MK probably a bit worse without his gimp game, but its annoying as heck how his shuttle loop covers the entire slope almost.

Come to think of it, there was some planking issue that was never really explained by the anti pipes crew.

 

[-Vocal-]

Its definitely not the same as MK on RC. Alot of already good characters are even better on pipes. MK probably a bit worse without his gimp game, but its annoying as heck how his shuttle loop covers the entire slope almost.

Come to think of it, there was some planking issue that was never really explained by the anti pipes crew.

I'd be kind of afraid to face a Snake on Pipes now that I think about it.

 

[UberMario]

I'm guessing they're talking about the tip of the diagonal pipe, which can block attacks (like Falco's lasers) from reaching the planker. I don't think it's really that much of a problem, especially since it's impossible to get stage spiked downwards, so physical attacks are more viable than, say, at Final Destination or PS1.

 

[Raziek]

That, and planking breaks every stage anyway.

 

[Tesh]

I was more referring to the pit that people cite issues with. I personally think its far easier to deal with because of the land on both sides. Some people won't be convinced though.

Planking on the pipes is meh. Lasers won't hit a planker on any stage (unless its like a planking charizard or something). Massive disjoints like Ike, Samus, ZSS etc. will go through the entire slope and hit the ledge anyway. Also being bounced sideways that close to the blast zone is just as much punishment as being spiked.

 

[T-block]

Having land on both sides doesn't really make dealing with planking any easier, unless you get creative and are playing a character who is able to affect both sides at once. Snake may be able to leave an explosive on one side while he stands on the other... Link/Toon Link with bombs, etc. But for most characters, if they can't deal with planking from one side, the addition of land on the other side isn't going to help. Meanwhile if you manage to steal the ledge from the planker your reward is significantly reduced, as the planker can just grab the other ledge.

It does make planking less effective in that you can't get punished as much if you mess up your attempt to stop it. Where on most stages you could end up stage-spiked, it's unlikely you'll die trying to stop the planker unless you're already at stupidly high percents. But that's not much consolations really...

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

The problem with the pit is, for the most part, that if you want to beat planking, you're not going to want to come from the top. Planking is, for the most part, a defensive tactic. Having those walls on the side... Well, now ICs might be able to beat it easier, I guess... most of what it does is slightly change up who can beat what-if you can throw/drop something down there, then you're in better shape; if you can't but have a nice bair or something, then you're screwed. I would very much guess that MK's downB planking is almost completely unbeatable there.

 

[Akaku94]

But BPC, MK's planking is technically unbeatable anyway, right? And you attest that we shouldn't ban a stage based on one character, which is why brinstar and RC are still legal. Unless the stage is overcentralizing (which I'm pretty sure it isn't), there's no reason to ban it.

 

[Raziek]

Akaku with the good point.

/bro-fist

 

[UberMario]

Also, the planking is affected by the blocks in the bridge, which will force characters, even ones with planking as good as MK's to stop every once-and-a-while when they don't perfectly time an aerial hit on them, which would require pausing in the first place, so either way the blocks effect planking negatively. However, I'd like to find out some frame info about "ledge swapping" in the gap. How does it affect characters like Ike, Fox, Falco, Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, Luigi, or Diddy, who can use their Side Bs directly out of a ledgegrab? I doubt it would change anything, and I feel the stage is perfectly fine, but I'm still curious.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

But BPC, MK's planking is technically unbeatable anyway, right? And you attest that we shouldn't ban a stage based on one character, which is why brinstar and RC are still legal. Unless the stage is overcentralizing (which I'm pretty sure it isn't), there's no reason to ban it.

Oh, I know. But I mean guys like Marth, Bowser, Ike... The rest of the "technically very beatable" crowd that suddenly becomes one big fat problem.

Also, the planking is affected by the blocks in the bridge, which will force characters, even ones with planking as good as MK's to stop every once-and-a-while when they don't perfectly time an aerial hit on them, which would require pausing in the first place, so either way the blocks effect planking negatively.

Not really. Most planking just goes straight through the blocks.

However, I'd like to find out some frame info about "ledge swapping" in the gap. How does it affect characters like Ike, Fox, Falco, Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, Luigi, or Diddy, who can use their Side Bs directly out of a ledgegrab? I doubt it would change anything, and I feel the stage is perfectly fine, but I'm still curious.

This too.

 

[Tesh]

I figured land on the both sides of the ledge makes normally risky tactics, such as jumping past the ledge with thunder or c4/bombs etc. less risky as you aren't offstage when it doesn't work. I don't even see how you would plank vs pikachu or snake on this stage. It just doesn't seem reasonably possible to avoid so many things coming down on you with almost no risk to the other player.

Also the blocks don't really stop planking except vs some characters that "don't fit" when the middle block pops up. Mario, Luigi, Sonic etc. won't fit when it pops up, but I know mk and pit fit and the block next to the ledge will continue to flip if something is in the way.

 

[Raziek]

I mentioned this to BPC at one point, but if planking the center pit (or the side) becomes a problem, a stage specific LGL IS an option for here, since normal play means there will be an extremely low number of ledge-grabs to begin with. Like, I don't think you'd go much higher than 10-15 unless you were planking.

It's not exactly 1000% logical, but it's a small surgical fix with the benefit of gaining another stage, and a unique one at that.

 

[Tesh]

People won't go for that. I'm sure they would call it scrubby even if they think it would solve the problem.

Also 10-15 seems way too low. Lets not forget matches at 8 minutes long and a planking should be way past 40 if he was stalling for a while. Some of the characters that don't fit will wind up under the ledge when they get their grab cancelled. Like Ganondorf.

 

[Raziek]

No less scrubby than a universal ledgegrab limit on ALL stages, when only one character really needs it, right?

 

[T-block]

I figured land on the both sides of the ledge makes normally risky tactics, such as jumping past the ledge with thunder or c4/bombs etc. less risky as you aren't offstage when it doesn't work. I don't even see how you would plank vs pikachu or snake on this stage. It just doesn't seem reasonably possible to avoid so many things coming down on you with almost no risk to the other player.

Also the blocks don't really stop planking except vs some characters that "don't fit" when the middle block pops up. Mario, Luigi, Sonic etc. won't fit when it pops up, but I know mk and pit fit and the block next to the ledge will continue to flip if something is in the way.

Pikachu can B-reverse a down-b to achieve basically the same effect on Battlefield, no? Snake may benefit from being able to stick C4 to the blocks when they're not spinning, etc., but he's only one character =\

I mentioned this to BPC at one point, but if planking the center pit (or the side) becomes a problem, a stage specific LGL IS an option for here, since normal play means there will be an extremely low number of ledge-grabs to begin with. Like, I don't think you'd go much higher than 10-15 unless you were planking.

It's not exactly 1000% logical, but it's a small surgical fix with the benefit of gaining another stage, and a unique one at that.

I'm not so sure about that. Several matchups against Dedede would probably be significantly worse with a LGL of 15. And if we find out that more than 6 characters can be CG'd up the slope, even more so (Pit? ROB?). "Normal play" is a pretty dangerous term.

 

[Raziek]

I suppose that's a fair point, but we still need to think about some way to address the possible planking issue, and the first step is really to determine whether or not it's feasibly combatable by the majority of the cast.

 

[Akaku94]

Again, the stage may slightly accentuate it, but planking is always going to be a problem, regardless of stage, and the rules we're thinking of to fight it (LGLs, etc.) have side affects that aren't worth it. Too bad we can't have a soft ban on planking, but is there any way to enforce planking as a form of stalling effectively?

 

[Tesh]

If there were to be an LGL on this stage (or for any other reason) I think it needs to be high enough that "regular" play could not be impacted. As long as it puts a dent in unbeatable planking I say its fine. In an 8 minute match, its obviously fine to let someone plank for 2 minutes. As long as you can force them to regrab the ledge for invincibility, you should be fine.


Also I think it would be worthwhile to explore how you could combat planking by grabbing the OTHER ledge right next to them on pipes. Its something that isn't possible on any other stage (except japes I guess) and just might solve the problem its been assumed to cause.

 

[Luxor]

MK can act significantly sooner than you can in that case, with you on the ledge/offstage. Not my idea of ideal.

I really doubt you'd get any higher than two ledgegrabs in the pit without trying.

 

[Tesh]

I meant, possibly grabbing the ledge after he does, so your invincibility lasts longer than his.

Mk grabs the ledge and is stuck for 24 frames before he can drop down with an invincible uair.
So on frame 20ish you grab the ledge next to him, you will be invincible during both uairs and able to attack him before he can regrab.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Oh my god. So I was just trawling through the TvC forums on SRK, and I got this gem.

This is the dumbest thing I have read so far from the TvC community.

Banning Giants............because they are not good? I could've sworn the reason certain characters in games are banned because they are too[/B ]good/broken.
Last I saw............Gaints can't block, and are slow.
****......let's go ahead and request a soft ban on the remaining 40 characters in Marvel vs. Capcom 2 because they are not good.

Don't go the way of Smash.
Just........don't.

 

[-Vocal-]

Oh my god. So I was just trawling through the TvC forums on SRK, and I got this gem.

Well that's not how the Smash community is at all.

SLANDER

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

It totally is. >.> We ban **** all the time just because we don't like it. If not we, then they.