Official Stage Legality Discussion: Stage Specific

[Tesh]

I thought the reason "he who shall not be named" wasn't banned is so other communities don't laugh at us.

And you mean to tell me they laugh at us anyway?

Its fine for things to be done if we dislike it imo. The problem is who gets to ban something when they dislike it.

All we have is a round table of tyrants that get to select other people to join their ranks in the ABBR.



On topic: YIipes is awesome. I'd love to see some top players fighting on this stage to really grasp how it works.

 

[Raziek]

I should have some replays up on it soon.

 

[WindMajor]

YI:M is probably the funnest stage to play on. Matches there are really exciting, and they always keep you on your toes.

 

[Luxor]

I meant, possibly grabbing the ledge after he does, so your invincibility lasts longer than his.

Mk grabs the ledge and is stuck for 24 frames before he can drop down with an invincible uair.
So on frame 20ish you grab the ledge next to him, you will be invincible during both uairs and able to attack him before he can regrab.

MK has 24 frames to react and time a Uair or spam a Nado rather than mechanically double Uairing. Mindless planking is beatable, perfect planking isn't.

 

[Tesh]

If your invincibility starts after his, I think that would mean he can't hit you before you hit him. I have no doubt that he could probably escape the situation by jumping off the ledge, but then we are coming up on a different issue. If he winds up have to run away and plank on the pipe ledge, then its no different than any other stage.

 

[ADHD]

These stage boards are so incredibly biased it makes me cringe to state this, but why is Green Greens legal, honestly?

Trying to avoid Rich Brown's center camping, I tried to jump away and side-b. What ended up happening was I was randomly hit by a falling bomb and killed at a somewhat high percent (I recall around maybe 80%). Then, later in doubles I witnessed someone airdodge-catch a stationary apple and explode and die, lol.

There are no warnings or solid ways to avoid it's hazards, as you sort of have to utilize the entire stage's space, na'mean? The blocks will be broken eventually and have to respawn.

You can not just expect people to take the time to take special precautions (bombs and purposely destroying blocks and such) when the ideal match consists of two people fighting eachother, or that was the general idea of it.

The stage provides projectiles, IN WHICH NO OTHER STAGE IN THE ENTIRE GAME WILL DO. They spawn in different positions, so the stage can reward someone who is undeserving of being healed or given an extra weapon for their arsenal.

The stage is random--and not a pre-warned random. . I don't see how this can be beneficial for competitive play and it should be removed immediately in any stagelist. Perhaps your view of what's ban-able and not will vary from mine, but come on man know the limits.

 

[WindMajor]

These stage boards are so incredibly biased it makes me cringe to state this, but why is Green Greens legal, honestly?

Trying to avoid Rich Brown's center camping, I tried to jump away and side-b. What ended up happening was I was randomly hit by a falling bomb and killed at a somewhat high percent (I recall around maybe 80%). Then, later in doubles I witnessed someone airdodge-catch a stationary apple and explode and die, lol.

There are no warnings or solid ways to avoid it's hazards, as you sort of have to utilize the entire stage's space, na'mean? The blocks will be broken eventually and have to respawn.

You can not just expect people to take the time to take special precautions (bombs and purposely destroying blocks and such) when the ideal match consists of two people fighting eachother, or that was the general idea of it.

The stage provides projectiles, IN WHICH NO OTHER STAGE IN THE ENTIRE GAME WILL DO. They spawn in different positions, so the stage can reward someone who is undeserving of being healed or given an extra weapon for their arsenal.

The stage is random--and not a pre-warned random. . I don't see how this can be beneficial for competitive play and it should be removed immediately in any stagelist. Perhaps your view of what's ban-able and not will vary from mine, but come on man know the limits.

I'm assuming that this is the match that you're talking about.

The warning is that the blocks fall in the same place, over and over and over. That's a constant. What's random is which blocks fall. Take your constant and apply it to the random factor.

Either a bomb block or a regular block can spawn, but way over there, so I should watch out for that. There's your warning.

How can I apply this warning to my game?

1) Air Dodge over the blocks, or time your approach around the blocks. The blocks move in a certain groove. If you feel that you can make it across, time it right. If not, or if you're getting hit, air dodge.

2) Don't aim attacks at the blocks. If you're backed up against the blocks, aim your attacks the other way. Either that, or shield/dodge/spotdodge/roll away, and let the enemy try to attack you. Chances are, he might hit the blocks and get blown up. If you're trying to back someone against the wall, use your grabs or space attacks. If you're grabbing, watch your pummels/throws. Also, you could try to
predict a roll or something and just hit behind you.

I'm not a Diddy main, so I can't help you with what specific attacks, but messing around in Green Greens for half an hour or so will answer some questions as to what attacks work and what attacks don't.

As for the apples, can you explain why it's undeserving?

 

[Tesh]

I don't think that is the match he is talking about. He said the stage killed him. That match he died from an upsmash and 2 edgehogs and got massively outplayed. He only took one bomb hit that maybe couldn't have been reacted to with ease.

Perhaps the grand finals set.

I'd be pretty interested in seeing an apple explode long after its landed.

 

[WindMajor]

That's the only game on Green Greens that he has in WF and GF. :/

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I don't think that is the match he is talking about. He said the stage killed him. That match he died from an upsmash and 2 edgehogs and got massively outplayed. He only took one bomb hit that maybe couldn't have been reacted to with ease.

That's the only game on Green Greens that he has in WF and GF. :/

Perhaps not fair or accurate, but god dammit this is funny.

These stage boards are so incredibly biased it makes me cringe to state this, but why is Green Greens legal, honestly?

Trying to avoid Rich Brown's center camping, I tried to jump away and side-b. What ended up happening was I was randomly hit by a falling bomb and killed at a somewhat high percent (I recall around maybe 80%).

Basically, you don't know exactly when, but you can tell, 100%, that it will happen in a very small area on the stage.

Then, later in doubles I witnessed someone airdodge-catch a stationary apple and explode and die, lol.

O.o Wait they explode when you touch them, not when they land?

There are no warnings or solid ways to avoid it's hazards, as you sort of have to utilize the entire stage's space, na'mean? The blocks will be broken eventually and have to respawn.

You can have careful timing/invincible paths through the blocks, and you can just not grab the apples. Yes, I know how shaky this is.

You can not just expect people to take the time to take special precautions (bombs and purposely destroying blocks and such) when the ideal match consists of two people fighting eachother, or that was the general idea of it.

Well, actually, in brawl, you **** well can. Don't make me get into the whole PvS element debate with you again.

The stage provides projectiles, IN WHICH NO OTHER STAGE IN THE ENTIRE GAME WILL DO. They spawn in different positions, so the stage can reward someone who is undeserving of being healed or given an extra weapon for their arsenal.

They spawn in a very short reach of each other in the center; if you control the center, you earned them. If you're fighting for control of the center, you can very well fight for them... Yeah, I know, weak arguments.

The stage is random--and not a pre-warned random. . I don't see how this can be beneficial for competitive play and it should be removed immediately in any stagelist. Perhaps your view of what's ban-able and not will vary from mine, but come on man know the limits.

I dunno. Green Greens is really a very debatable stage. On one hand, you have that it's very different from other stages and that all of the random elements are zone-based; i.e. stay in the right place and you'll be fine... On the other hand, it is fairly random. Matchup-blowingly random when both players really know the stage? I kinda doubt it. But between the apples, the rainbow glitch, and the fact that the center is a really strong camping spot... I dunno.

 

[Raziek]

I'd like to see the vid in question before I make any judgements, because right now the general vibe I'm getting is "Bawww, my opponent put me in a bad position, I took a calculated risk, and I died for it."

 

[ADHD]

I'd like to see the vid in question before I make any judgements, because right now the general vibe I'm getting is "Bawww, my opponent put me in a bad position, I took a calculated risk, and I died for it."

EDIT: Actually, now now that I can see it, RB was on the other side of the stage coming back towards the center, and I tried to jump up and bait him and then I was hit at 40%.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I think Brinstar is too broken to be played on in competitive play. All the hitboxes from Mk are multiplied by like 10 in terms of ability to hit an opponent from all the way across the map just by abusing the terrain that can be broken apart. Mk can kill on this stage like at 10 with a SL. It's small and hard to avoid everything. I hate this stage.

And about green greens, I agree with Adhd. Some stages are too stupid and the stage itself is the determining factor in who wins the match because of random bull****.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I think Brinstar is too broken to be played on in competitive play. All the hitboxes from Mk are multiplied by like 10 in terms of ability to hit an opponent from all the way across the map just by abusing the terrain that can be broken apart. Mk can kill on this stage like at 10 with a SL. It's small and hard to avoid everything. I hate this stage.

Oh look it's my favorite thing ever, metaknight johns!

Look at the stage. Is it really broken? If so, would it still be broken if MK was banned? Haven't top MKs actually lost on that stage several times? Is it not the case that it is, in fact, for various characters, a favored counterpick against MK (ness, Wario, G&W, Pikachu, to name a few; in fact, if you don't ban brinstar against ness as MK, he will probably stomp your *** on Brinstar!)?

The stage is not broken. If anything is broken (which I doubt), it's Metaknight-he would then deserve to be banned. The stage contains no overcentralizing or overly (in fact, at all) random element. There is no case that you can make to ban brinstar that does not deal with banning either MK or Rainbow Cruise as well. In fact, if you hate brinstar that much, just ban it.

 

[Raziek]

@ADHD - Do you have the video that I could see? I don't really want to make any blanket statements about what you COULD have done, without knowing what kind of situation it was.

BPC covered what I wanted to say about Seagull's post, pretty much.

 

[UberMario]

EDIT: Actually, now now that I can see it, RB was on the other side of the stage coming back towards the center, and I tried to jump up and bait him and then I was hit at 40%.

Hit by the block or Rich? 40% seems insanely low to be killed by a bomb block . . . . . . . I may have to go back and check, but I'm pretty sure the blocks don't beccome a ko factor until you're at the 70%-100%-ish range.

Green Greens is one of the more balanced counterpicks in my opinion, I'd say if it weren't for the DeDeDe factor and exploding apples, it would be as balanced as Halberd, maybe more. [The apples are easily avoidable as they are, and the walls can be broken down easily, so that's not a real problem. If you're up in that match with D3, you just need to hack at the base, as the top stays in place regardless whether the bottom is there or not]

IIRC, you said a while back you were having issues at Norfair [or at least hated the stage, I don't remember], what was it about the stage that was so problematic?

 

[ADHD]

Hit by the block or Rich? 40% seems insanely low to be killed by a bomb block . . . . . . . I may have to go back and check, but I'm pretty sure the blocks don't beccome a ko factor until you're at the 70%-100%-ish range.

Green Greens is one of the more balanced counterpicks in my opinion, I'd say if it weren't for the DeDeDe factor and exploding apples, it would be as balanced as Halberd, maybe more. [The apples are easily avoidable as they are, and the walls can be broken down easily, so that's not a real problem. If you're up in that match with D3, you just need to hack at the base, as the top stays in place regardless whether the bottom is there or not]

IIRC, you said a while back you were having issues at Norfair [or at least hated the stage, I don't remember], what was it about the stage that was so problematic?

No, you're right, I didn't die. It dished out an unnecessary 20% damage, though, and was pushed out of an advantageous position.. And sure, the stage would be fine if it wasn't for the apples and the blocks, but they're there and do exist and are problematic.

As for Norfair, my problem with Norfair is that the stage is so limiting because of the terrain and interfering. There are quite a bit of times where someone is struck COMPLETELY, COMPLETELY out of options because of the position of a lava stream and the opponent just waiting for them to fall down. When the lava randomly occurs in different spots where it is uncaring of where you currently are, how can you plan to strategize around this? Maybe there are times where you can work with the "PvS" factor, but there are also times where it is uncontrollable. I hate that and that's not competitive, imo.

4 RAZIEK: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCKiPnfPXb4 @ 0:50. I got ***** here, but not because of the stage. I made alot of stupid moron choices. I know I won the tournament but I really wasn't playing my best.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Oh look it's my favorite thing ever, metaknight johns!

Look at the stage. Is it really broken? If so, would it still be broken if MK was banned? Haven't top MKs actually lost on that stage several times? Is it not the case that it is, in fact, for various characters, a favored counterpick against MK (ness, Wario, G&W, Pikachu, to name a few; in fact, if you don't ban brinstar against ness as MK, he will probably stomp your *** on Brinstar!)?

The stage is not broken. If anything is broken (which I doubt), it's Metaknight-he would then deserve to be banned. The stage contains no overcentralizing or overly (in fact, at all) random element. There is no case that you can make to ban brinstar that does not deal with banning either MK or Rainbow Cruise as well. In fact, if you hate brinstar that much, just ban it.

The problem with banning brinstar given the Mlg ruleset is I'm still left with other bull**** stages that are heavily Mk terrain (Rc, Brinstar, Norfair). I ban one and I'm still ****ed over by the other 2 remaining.

I feel these 4 stages specifically are too Mk focused. I'm not pro ban towards Mk, but these stages are too much his favor and are almost guaranteed wins for Mk under most circumstances. There needs to be a limiting factor for gay stages. Like only 1/3 should be allowed of the three listed. If Mk was banned this stage would still be stupid because it's a campfest while utilizing the increased hitboxes of the stage parts that break leading to longer hitbox extensions, more camping, and profound stupidity.

 

[UberMario]

No, you're right, I didn't die. It dished out an unnecessary 20% damage, though, and was pushed out of an advantageous position.. And sure, the stage would be fine if it wasn't for the apples and the blocks, but they're there and do exist and are problematic.

While true, the apples are somewhat uncommon and the blocks ONLY spawn if the tower isn't five blocks high, if you notice, in the video you posted Rich was controlling them by constantly destroying them or baiting to get them destroyed.

As for Norfair, my problem with Norfair is that the stage is so limiting because of the terrain and interfering. There are quite a bit of times where someone is struck COMPLETELY, COMPLETELY out of options because of the position of a lava stream

You are talking about the sprays of magma coming out of the back, right? Their hitbox is quite narrow, even for what they appear to have. Unless a player is combo'd into it, DI'ing or simply airdodging is enough to avoid it, as each individual spray only lasts for about two seconds on the stage itself, with about four seconds of warning beforehand, not to mention it's shieldable and barely chips away anything.

and the opponent just waiting for them to fall down. When the lava randomly occurs in different spots where it is uncaring of where you currently are, how can you plan to strategize around this?

When you say them, are you talking about the spray, or the character they're playing against? If it's the former, see the above, you have plenty of warning to avoid the sprays. Proof, Pit shielded the full hit and his shield looks the same as before, and Ike is partially in the second spray and didn't trigger the hitbox, which is only in the center.

Maybe there are times where you can work with the "PvS" factor, but there are also times where it is uncontrollable. I hate that and that's not competitive, imo.

I beg to disagree, the lava is very useful in strategies, for example, I did a finishing move a few day ago by volleying a player with aerials into the "right lava wall" three times in a row before doing a final aerial. The magma is very tactical when it comes to finishing. (And it's more than just, hit them into the "lava wall for a free ko", that only works around 120% if they DI down, which is close to what you'd get without the lava's assistance anyway) And the lava tsunami from the background is laughable. You can evade it by air-dodging, planking, and even shielding, the funny thing is the capsule is the worst place to avoid it in, because if a player goes in there, their opponent can get a good 20%+ on aerials chipping through the bottom of the floor, since there's no room in the capsule to avoid it.) Personally I think it is one of the more competitive CPs and should be considered a starter MORE than Castle Siege or PS1 does, but not quite as much as some of the others like Frigate [another stage I think is starter worthy] or Delfino. Even when I play on lagfi it's not that difficult to avoid the lava, the only thing I consider close to a problem is when the lava is at it's highest, but virtually all of the cast can still travel in between the two platforms without an issue, and if your opponent is on the opposite platform, you can just wait out the five-eight seconds before the lava sinks back down. This and Port Town (yes, I said Port Town) are WAY more predictable than people claim they are.

4 RAZIEK: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCKiPnfPXb4 @ 0:50. I got ***** here, but not because of the stage. I made alot of stupid moron choices. I know I won the tournament but I really wasn't playing my best.

As I said before, Rich was using the blocks to his advantage [there are several parts midway through the fight where you can see him specifically destroying the blocks, and it almost always on the right side], by destroying them, he was able to use the falling blocks to his benefit. I do have to say though, when I watch you play as Diddy [in general], it makes me earn a lot of respect for that character. I do wish you were a bit more open about counterpicks though, there are several CPs that are just as competitive as Starters, especially for Diddy. [Three CPs in mind that I think could actually be quite powerful in the hands of a Diddy pro are Norfair [ironically], Port Town [you might laugh, and I doubt you'll consider this at all [especially with it's abscence from MLG], but the stage is just as flat as Smashville or FD and Diddy can Up B stall the bottom killzone, not to mention bananas are powerful zoning tools, especially when including the cars, and Frigate Orpheon (not much to say about this one that you don't know).]

The problem with banning brinstar given the Mlg ruleset is I'm still left with other bull**** stages that are heavily Mk terrain (Rc, Brinstar, Norfair). I ban one and I'm still ****ed over by the other 2 remaining.

I feel these 4 stages specifically are too Mk focused. I'm not pro ban towards Mk, but these stages are too much his favor and are almost guaranteed wins for Mk under most circumstances. There needs to be a limiting factor for gay stages. Like only 1/3 should be allowed of the three listed. If Mk was banned this stage would still be stupid because it's a campfest while utilizing the increased hitboxes of the stage parts that break leading to longer hitbox extensions, more camping, and profound stupidity.

Rainbow Cruise? Yes, that's MK focused.
Brinstar? Not overwhelmingly, but it doesn't disadvantage him. This is more of a Wario stage than a MK stage. TBH
Norfair? lol . . . . . . other than planking I don't see much going for him here that can't be said about the other characters.

 

[Seagull Joe]

While true, the apples are somewhat uncommon and the blocks ONLY spawn if the tower isn't five blocks high, if you notice, in the video you posted Rich was controlling them by constantly destroying them or baiting to get them destroyed.

You are talking about the sprays of magma coming out of the back, right? Their hitbox is quite narrow, even for what they appear to have. Unless a player is combo'd into it, DI'ing or simply airdodging is enough to avoid it, as each individual spray only lasts for about two seconds on the stage itself, with about four seconds of warning beforehand, not to mention it's shieldable and barely chips away anything.

When you say them, are you talking about the spray, or the character they're playing against? If it's the former, see the above, you have plenty of warning to avoid the sprays. Proof, Pit shielded the full hit and his shield looks the same as before, and Ike is partially in the second spray and didn't trigger the hitbox, which is only in the center.

I beg to disagree, the lava is very useful in strategies, for example, I did a finishing move a few day ago by volleying a player with aerials into the "right lava wall" three times in a row before doing a final aerial. The magma is very tactical when it comes to finishing. (And it's more than just, hit them into the "lava wall for a free ko", that only works around 120% if they DI down, which is close to what you'd get without the lava's assistance anyway) And the lava tsunami from the background is laughable. You can evade it by air-dodging, planking, and even shielding, the funny thing is the capsule is the worst place to avoid it in, because if a player goes in there, their opponent can get a good 20%+ on aerials chipping through the bottom of the floor, since there's no room in the capsule to avoid it.) Personally I think it is one of the more competitive CPs and should be considered a starter MORE than Castle Siege or PS1 does, but not quite as much as some of the others like Frigate [another stage I think is starter worthy] or Delfino. Even when I play on lagfi it's not that difficult to avoid the lava, the only thing I consider close to a problem is when the lava is at it's highest, but virtually all of the cast can still travel in between the two platforms without an issue, and if your opponent is on the opposite platform, you can just wait out the five-eight seconds before the lava sinks back down. This and Port Town (yes, I said Port Town) are WAY more predictable than people claim they are.

As I said before, Rich was using the blocks to his advantage [there are several parts midway through the fight where you can see him specifically destroying the blocks, and it almost always on the right side], by destroying them, he was able to use the falling blocks to his benefit. I do have to say though, when I watch you play as Diddy [in general], it makes me earn a lot of respect for that character. I do wish you were a bit more open about counterpicks though, there are several CPs that are just as competitive as Starters, especially for Diddy. [Three CPs in mind that I think could actually be quite powerful in the hands of a Diddy pro are Norfair [ironically], Port Town [you might laugh, and I doubt you'll consider this at all [especially with it's abscence from MLG], but the stage is just as flat as Smashville or FD and Diddy can Up B stall the bottom killzone, not to mention bananas are powerful zoning tools, especially when including the cars, and Frigate Orpheon (not much to say about this one that you don't know).]

Rainbow Cruise? Yes, that's MK focused.
Brinstar? Not overwhelmingly, but it doesn't disadvantage him. This is more of a Wario stage than a MK stage. TBH
Norfair? lol . . . . . . other than planking I don't see much going for him here that can't be said about the other characters.

Norfair vs Mk is ledge snap plank city son. Not to mention his ability to maneuver around the whole stage is better then everyone else.

Mk has no disadvantageous stages in general, but Brinstar just is overwhelmingly advantageous compared to other stages against every character. The only character that does good on this stage vs Mk is Wario I guess and even that is still probably Mk favored stage territory.

 

[Raziek]

@Seagull - I Refuse to ban a stage because of MK. Won't happen, ever. Not a legitimate reason. Drop the character if he's too strong in any system that isn't tailored SPECIFICALLY to nerfing him.

@ADHD, thanks for the vid. Yeah, it sucks that a bomb fell on you, but there were a couple things to note on that:

1) The left side was almost completely filled, the right side was not. This makes it a lot more likely for a block on the right.

2) Blocks were CURRENTLY falling in a constant stream (The block that hit you was like, the 5th one), so it wasn't unreasonable to assume they would keep falling there.

3) You could have airdodged over. While this would have limited your options, it would have been safer. You chose to go for a bait, which implies that you knew the risk of jumping into the path of the bombs.

4) Did you give up at 1:07? You probably should have died for coming up from below there.

Yes they're random to an extent, but simple guessing and compensation makes them more than manageable.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

The problem with banning brinstar given the Mlg ruleset is I'm still left with other bull**** stages that are heavily Mk terrain (Rc, Brinstar, Norfair). I ban one and I'm still ****ed over by the other 2 remaining.

I feel these 4 stages specifically are too Mk focused. I'm not pro ban towards Mk, but these stages are too much his favor and are almost guaranteed wins for Mk under most circumstances. There needs to be a limiting factor for gay stages. Like only 1/3 should be allowed of the three listed. If Mk was banned this stage would still be stupid because it's a campfest while utilizing the increased hitboxes of the stage parts that break leading to longer hitbox extensions, more camping, and profound stupidity.

So you would explicitly ban stages to nerf Metaknight? Isn't it kind of telling that in a system where stages exist that only ever would need to be banned because MK is too good on them? If MK is broken with a reasonable stagelist, then MK is broken, period. If legalizing stages with no overcentralizing or broken tactic makes MK broken, then... Well, imagine a character was broken on FD, SV, and BF, and only those 3 stages. Would you ban FD/SV/BF, or would you ban that character? Because seriously-banning RC is about as reasonable as banning SV. Banning Brinstar as reasonable as banning FD. Banning Norfair... meh, that's slightly more reasonable.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I like how you guys admit MK is broken. But he still won't get banned.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

IF MK is broken with a reasonable stagelist (or, for that matter, a liberal stagelist), then he is broken. That's all there is to it, really. Artificially nerfing him via the stagelist is just as legit as not letting him use the B button-his ability to deal with moving stages is a major part of his character design, and if gameplay overcentralizes around him in a fair stagelist, then he is banworthy. Period. The question of if, of course, is still present. But if you'd start complaining about otherwise legitimate stages because of MK alone, then MK is the problem.

 

[Seagull Joe]

If only SV, Bf, Fd, and Yi were legal like in Japan then that evens the playing field of most characters.

Yes Mk is overpowered on Rc, Norfair, and Brinstar for obvious reasons. These stages are stupid. The neutrals give everyone an even playing field to utilize their own smarts to beat the opponent. Brinstar uses lava and increased hitboxes to cause discourse and utter stupidity. Rainbow Cruise has so many glitches, moves in a way that makes camping a necessity, and is the only place where SL will kill at 0. Norfair is obvious.

 

[Raziek]

If only SV, Bf, Fd, and Yi were legal like in Japan then that evens the playing field of most characters.

No.

Yes Mk is overpowered on Rc, Norfair, and Brinstar for obvious reasons. These stages are stupid.

Although he is overpowered on these stages, the stages are not the problem, and are not stupid.

The neutrals give everyone an even playing field to utilize their own smarts to beat the opponent.

Oh yeah, because FD is SO fair to character who do well with platforms. My own smarts know how to play on counterpicks. Your's apparently don't. Get outta here with this "Even play field" business.

Stop saying neutrals.

Brinstar uses lava and increased hitboxes to cause discourse and utter stupidity. Rainbow Cruise has so many glitches, moves in a way that makes camping a necessity, and is the only place where SL will kill at 0. Norfair is obvious.

NONE OF THESE ARE BAN REASONS.

The acid is on a timer. Increased hitboxes is a COUNTERPICK QUALITY.

Rainbow Cruise has glitches? Really? Care to illustrate some that are gamebreaking? Camping = CP quality. SL at 0.... no. Just no.

Norfair is scripted, easy to react to, and the only thing that even causes a REMOTE problem is the geysers, but even THEY are on a timer.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

If only SV, Bf, Fd, and Yi were legal like in Japan then that evens the playing field of most characters.

No, not really. It would raise the gap between chars like Falco, Diddy, and ICs (i.e. most of the top tier) and characters like ZSS, Pikachu, G&W, etc. (the emerging tier below them). It would not improve character balance beyond slightly lowering the gap between MK and the rest of top tier.

Yes Mk is overpowered on Rc, Norfair, and Brinstar for obvious reasons.

Yes, because no top MK has dropped a match on any of those stages. OH WAIT IT HAPPENS QUITE OFTEN. Because RC and Norfair are anywhere near as good as Brinstar in most matchups. OH WAIT THEY AREN'T. Because MK is completely untouchable on those 3 stages and not overpowered at all anywhere else. OH WAIT.

These stages are stupid. The neutrals give everyone an even playing field to utilize their own smarts to beat the opponent.

...Yeah, this is bad. I need a summed-up post about all the reasons this statement is bad. The short version is that you essentially attempt to completely remove an entire class of skills in brawl (the ability to deal with stages, which, if we are to play the game at a high level, will almost certainly be demanded of us). You fail miserably no matter what, but you ditch some of the most competitive stages in the game-counterpicks that offer wildly different, and yet non-broken and non-random gameplay.

Why are you unwilling to accept the ability to play around stages as a necessary skill in Super Smash Bros? The stage is a massive part of gameplay. Take a look at Lucario-ICs or MK-ICs on FD. Now look at the EXACT SAME MATCHUP on BF or SV. And get this-those are 3 of the most similar stages in the game, as far as their qualities go! And yet, the matchup plays completely differently on all 3 of them! Why? The stage. You have to play around the stage no matter what; it's there. Why should you ever mitigate its influence? Because it's not completely in the player's control? That's an awful reason-the selection is in the player's control, and while the stage is not entirely within the player's control, RC and Brinstar are as much in the player's grasp as FD. Why? Because they are completely non-random. There is no way you can fairly justify FD as more fair to players, or more within the players' grasp than RC and Brinstar. Because it doesn't move? Oh well, it's a different stage, where you don't have to adapt to outside elements.

Brinstar uses lava and increased hitboxes to cause discourse and utter stupidity.

i.e. "BAWWW I CAN'T STAY ON THE GROUND ALL THE TIME WOE IS ME". Get better. The stage is completely non-random. There is no overcentralizing tactic. If MK is broken when Brinstar is legal, then the problem is not Brinstar, it's MK. Again, I'll make the comparison-imagine a character was wildly broken on FD, SV, and BF, and still probably the best in the game on all the other stages (like, ICs with DDD's grab range and traction). Would you claim that FD, SV, and BF are broken stages and need to be banned, or would you claim that the character is broken and demand that it be banned?

Rainbow Cruise has so many glitches

Proof or GTFO. Glitches that are extremely avoidable by people with brains, are caused by players and kill the player who initiate it, or contain various other things that just should not matter need not apply.

moves in a way that makes camping a necessity

FD makes camping a necessity with its lack of movement, platforms, and its huge size. Get @ me.

and is the only place where SL will kill at 0.

Fun fact: put yourself right next to a blastzone and almost anything will kill you at 0. Alternatively, don't play like a ******.

Norfair is obvious.

It's only obvious to the massively misinformed; i.e. it's common sense gone wrong. The lava coming from the back is on a timer. It's semi-random, but still consistent. MK's planking is not as strong as most people assume-in fact, it's at its very weakest outside of maybe Brinstar and PTAD. Runaway? Lava walls force conflict sooner or later. MK broken? Yeah, if you consider debatably better than Delfino broken.



All in all, Seagull, you don't really know what you're talking about. You're coming into this discussion with many of the same wildly misinformed arguments I've heard over and over and over again. Stage movement is not a bad thing. Forcing the player to interact with the stage is a massive part of what makes smash a game with good competitive depth.
If you honestly want to open your mind a little and figure out what I'm talking about and why your view is disturbingly wrong, I would direct you to these two threads:
http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=152650
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=288588

They delve into exactly what I'm talking about and trying to inform you of. The mindset that stage interaction is bad and should be avoided, or that it is even remotely anticompetitive, is ridiculously faulty. It's a mindset that simply has to die.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I know exactly what I'm talking about. I'm not a theory crafter. I actually go to tournies and play people on these stages.

 

[Raziek]

Hey guess what, obviously you don't play them seriously, because you clearly have no idea how to play these stages.

Norfair:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsaeGLhBVzU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMbgMenmhLI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJ_vQNekGg0

Distant Planet (You didn't ask for it, but here it is anyway):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IH4hsp89INU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GN-LU3d2x54

Brinstar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZIWR1kYiSQ

I'd have more, but I have a large backlog of uploads to go through, and people ban these stages against me. D:

STEP YO GAME UP, I'm A PLAYER AND A TO, AND I APPROVE THESE STAGES.

 

[UberMario]

If only SV, Bf, Fd, and Yi were legal like in Japan then that evens the playing field of most characters.

Like it has been said, if those were the only legal stages, you'd just make the tiers more prominent, making it less competitive.

Yes Mk is overpowered on Rc, Norfair, and Brinstar for obvious reasons.

Obvious to you, because you do not know the stages as wel as the "flatlands".

These stages are stupid.

Because you don't know how to utilize the stages to their fullest with your character, and since you hate them, they are automatically stupid.

The neutrals give everyone an even playing field to utilize their own smarts to beat the opponent.

lololol Last time I checked, laser spamming and chain-grab spamming on FD don't qualify as "utilizing their own smarts", when I hear "utilize their own smarts", I see people using the stages to their advantage. Plenty of top players do this, one example that I've brought up before was Rich Brown purposely destroyed the blocks and baited players that didn't know the stage well into getting hit by the falling replacements. If you don't know your stages, that's your fault, you got outplayed, simple as that. Got hit by the lava waves at Norfair? Totally your fault, because you either got into a situation that the opponent outplayed you for 6+ seconds to get you hit by it, or you don't know about the million ways to avoid it. Did you get thrown into Halberd's laser? That was utilizing smarts to outplay you. How about getting hit by Port Town's easiy-to-spot cars? Once again, assuming the player knows something about the stage, they outplayed you. Dynamic elements require creativity [and thus smarts] to trounce their opponent. Sure, you still need to know something to beat someone on a neutral, but you need to know more than your character to play on counterpicks, and thats why I think counterpicks are better than neutrals, because they actually emphasize playstyle over character choice.

Brinstar uses lava and increased hitboxes to cause discourse and utter stupidity.

If you have trouble avoiding the lava or fighting while moving around the stage, that's quite sad. Brinstar is pretty freaking predictable and a good player doesn't need to worry about the lava unless they get hit from ABOVE into it.

Rainbow Cruise has so many glitches

No it doesn't.

moves in a way that makes camping a necessity

This is a contradicting statement on so many levels.

and is the only place where SL will kill at 0.

OH LOOK! I used Jab at 0% when offscreen on Delfino! IKO! Oh boy! I tripped and used my getup attack to finish off my foe on Castle Siege because they were right next to the blast zone!

It's pretty much the same thing, if you're at 0% there is ABSOLUTELY no reason for a player to put themselves in such a situation, not even n00bs.

Norfair is obvious.

Norfair is the fairest of the three stages you brought up . . . . . . . .

I know exactly what I'm talking about.

No . . . . it sounds like you have trouble with three of the easiest counterpicks in the game.

I'm not a theory crafter.

You're not a theory crafter, yet you think that if we make it a 5-stage roster that it would make it more even? What's wrong with this picture?

I actually go to tournies and play people on these stages.

So have I, in my first Brawl tourney (in the winter of 08-09) I made it into the semi-finals with Mario in a group of 30+ people, clearly I don't know anything about these stages . . . . . . . especially since I prefer counterpicks. Granted I'm in a location where I haven't gone to tourneys since '09, but that doesn't mean I haven't gotten better without them.

Whether you go to tournaments or not is irrelevant, for all I know, you could place dead last everytime you go, the statement is as vague as saying a person that stole a car has hair and a tattoo.

 

[TheTantalus]

Like it has been said, if those were the only legal stages, you'd just make the tiers more prominent, making it less competitive.



Obvious to you, because you do not know the stages as wel as the "flatlands".



Because you don't know how to utilize the stages to their fullest with your character, and since you hate them, they are automatically stupid.



lololol Last time I checked, laser spamming and chain-grab spamming on FD don't qualify as "utilizing their own smarts", when I hear "utilize their own smarts", I see people using the stages to their advantage. Plenty of top players do this, one example that I've brought up before was Rich Brown purposely destroyed the blocks and baited players that didn't know the stage well into getting hit by the falling replacements. If you don't know your stages, that's your fault, you got outplayed, simple as that. Got hit by the lava waves at Norfair? Totally your fault, because you either got into a situation that the opponent outplayed you for 6+ seconds to get you hit by it, or you don't know about the million ways to avoid it. Did you get thrown into Halberd's laser? That was utilizing smarts to outplay you. How about getting hit by Port Town's easiy-to-spot cars? Once again, assuming the player knows something about the stage, they outplayed you. Dynamic elements require creativity [and thus smarts] to trounce their opponent. Sure, you still need to know something to beat someone on a neutral, but you need to know more than your character to play on counterpicks, and thats why I think counterpicks are better than neutrals, because they actually emphasize playstyle over character choice.



If you have trouble avoiding the lava or fighting while moving around the stage, that's quite sad. Brinstar is pretty freaking predictable and a good player doesn't need to worry about the lava unless they get hit from ABOVE into it.



No it doesn't.



This is a contradicting statement on so many levels.



OH LOOK! I used Jab at 0% when offscreen on Delfino! IKO! Oh boy! I tripped and used my getup attack to finish off my foe on Castle Siege because they were right next to the blast zone!

It's pretty much the same thing, if you're at 0% there is ABSOLUTELY no reason for a player to put themselves in such a situation, not even n00bs.



Norfair is the fairest of the three stages you brought up . . . . . . . .



No . . . . it sounds like you have trouble with three of the easiest counterpicks in the game.



You're not a theory crafter, yet you think that if we make it a 5-stage roster that it would make it more even? What's wrong with this picture?




So have I, in my first Brawl tourney (in the winter of 08-09) I made it into the semi-finals with Mario in a group of 30+ people, clearly I don't know anything about these stages . . . . . . . especially since I prefer counterpicks. Granted I'm in a location where I haven't gone to tourneys since '09, but that doesn't mean I haven't gotten better without them.

Whether you go to tournaments or not is irrelevant, for all I know, you could place dead last everytime you go, the statement is as vague as saying a person that stole a car has hair and a tattoo.

I thought the boards were supposed to evolve in knowledge, not devolve.

You got top 5 with mario? I'd love to see those videos. Come to a real tournament please and beat credible metaknights on brinstar/rc with mario and i'll personally hand you your entry fee back

 

[Shift]

So have I, in my first Brawl tourney (in the winter of 08-09) I made it into the semi-finals with Mario in a group of 30+ people, clearly I don't know anything about these stages . . . . . . . especially since I prefer counterpicks. Granted I'm in a location where I haven't gone to tourneys since '09, but that doesn't mean I haven't gotten better without them.

So have I, in my first Brawl tourney (in the winter of 08-09) I made it into the semi-finals with Mario in a group of 30+ people

Ok, you reached the semi-finals in 08 to 09 with a Mario...

Granted I'm in a location where I haven't gone to tourneys since '09

'09

And somehow you're here talking like you know theory crafting?

Spoiler

What a joke.

 

[Life]

Diggin' the ad hominem in this thread

 

[Raziek]

Seriously guys, **** off with the ad hominem. You know, SINCE PLAYERS WHO ATTEND AND PLACE IN TOURNEYS ARE ALSO SAYING THIS.

You guys can't debate worth ****.

 

[UberMario]

The "I go to tourneys therefore I'm right" excuse is getting pretty old guys. Going to them frequently does not equate to some sort of enlightment that makes you superior, just because tourneys are the most looked at aspect when it comes to competitive skill does not mean it's the only one.

@Tantalus&Shift: Your point? You could have at least brought up your stance on the issue, rather than just wasting your posts on how I don't go to real tourneys that often, you know, because maybe I don't think it's worth four hours of road time? If I was closer to Orlando I'd definitely have gone to several more tournaments by now. BTW, me not going to tournaments does not equate to me not playing. Take it as you will, just please, if you're going to post in this thread, actually give your opinion instead of just bashing me because of one tidbit. If you'd like to give an ACTUAL opinion on what I said, rather than bashing, please do so.



And just out of curiousity, how long have you played Brawl, Shift?

 

[Akaku94]

I agree with UberMario... tournament experience and game intelligence are mostly separate. There are plenty of tournament players who really have no clue in intelligent discussion, and people like UberMario and BPC (wow, not often they're grouped together!) who aren't winning tournaments are out-debating them all day long.

So, seriously, claiming tourney play as a source of credibility and the lack thereof is definitely ad hominem and irrelevant.

EDIT: 99th post! Almost there!

 

[Seagull Joe]

The problem with the theory crafting in this thread is it makes almost any stage seem legitimate for tourneyplay.

You chose reasons why Brinstar, Norfair, and Rc were all credible stages. Try this one:

*Summit- You can avoid all hazards and the ice is similar to Ps2's ice transformation. There is no walk offs. Every hazard is avoidable.

*Corneria- Nothing is super deadly other then the lasers at the bottom of the stage, which are predetermined to fire at specific intervals. There is a wall, but it's similar to a ps1 transformation and parts of frigate/delfino.

*Spear pillar- Everything is avoidable that's a trap. There are two areas to fight on, but this stage is similar to Luigi's mansion. Spear pillar utilizes a fair fighting atmosphere on the top of the stage and the bottom.

Explain to me, why these aren't legal when they share the same justifications you gave me for Norfair, Rc, and Brinstar.

 

[Lih]

The problem with the theory crafting in this thread is it makes almost any stage seem legitimate for tourneyplay.

You chose reasons why Brinstar, Norfair, and Rc were all credible stages. Try this one:

*Summit- You can avoid all hazards and the ice is similar to Ps2's ice transformation. There is no walk offs. Every hazard is avoidable.

*Corneria- Nothing is super deadly other then the lasers at the bottom of the stage, which are predetermined to fire at specific intervals. There is a wall, but it's similar to a ps1 transformation and parts of frigate/delfino.

*Spear pillar- Everything is avoidable that's a trap. There are two areas to fight on, but this stage is similar to Luigi's mansion. Spear pillar utilizes a fair fighting atmosphere on the top of the stage and the bottom.

Explain to me, why these aren't legal when they share the same justifications you gave me for Norfair, Rc, and Brinstar.

Because each of those stages has a broken tactic that makes them anti-competitive. Norfair, RC and Brinstar do not.

Summit and Spear Pillar both allow circle camping, making characters such as Fox impossible to beat. Corneria's fin can be easily camped in such a way that the camping character is pretty much undefeatable.

Norfair, RC and Brinstar feature no such broken tactics.

 

[UberMario]

The problem with the theory crafting in this thread is it makes almost any stage seem legitimate for tourneyplay.

You chose reasons why Brinstar, Norfair, and Rc were all credible stages. Try this one:

*Summit- You can avoid all hazards and the ice is similar to Ps2's ice transformation. There is no walk offs. Every hazard is avoidable.

*Corneria- Nothing is super deadly other then the lasers at the bottom of the stage, which are predetermined to fire at specific intervals. There is a wall, but it's similar to a ps1 transformation and parts of frigate/delfino.

*Spear pillar- Everything is avoidable that's a trap. There are two areas to fight on, but this stage is similar to Luigi's mansion. Spear pillar utilizes a fair fighting atmosphere on the top of the stage and the bottom.

Explain to me, why these aren't legal when they share the same justifications you gave me for Norfair, Rc, and Brinstar.

These are extremely simple to explain:

On Summit, there are no grabbable ledges, there's a small cave-of-life effect, the terrain is slippery [heavily imbalanced toward the Ice Climbers], some characters can't DI away from the fish, and it has unstoppable circle camping. (And if that wasn't enough, there's an IKO floor to the right when it slides down)

On Spear Pillar, while Dialga and Palkia's effects are harmless, as are their perfectly shieldable lasers and rare aura attacks, Crescelia is a far worse offender, with an overpowered attack that is near impossible to air-dodge through. However, even with them gone, the stage itself would still be banned, as this has the STRONGEST circle camping in the ENTIRE game, it's literally unstoppable if done right, not to mention the cave-of-life is as bad as Temple's.

Corneria is the closest to legal material of the three by far, but the length, extremely close right kill zone, and the fin prevent it from being truly considerable under the current system, as there are several infinites that are possible on it due to the fin behaving like a wall.

I by NO means am trying to get every stage legal, in fact, I want to see Pokemon Stadium and Pictochat go lower on the stage list, especially the latter, as I feel they have effects that truly degenerate competitive gameplay. (The former with transformations that literally can stop the match, the latter just being too wild to be as high a counterpick as it is [plus the fence and face modes are extremely broken, I wouldn't even consider it a Group 3 stage, much less a Group 2 stage like Norfair, Jungle Japes, Pokemon Stadium 2, and Rainbow Cruise are . . . . )

 

[Seagull Joe]

Explain to me why someone could'nt circle camp on Norfair with relative ease of just gliding around or jumping under stages through ledge snaps and just jumping.