Official Stage Legality Discussion: Stage Specific

[Tesh]

Spotdodge, jab, up b?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Uh, try different things. DI up, DI down, buffer spotdodges, buffer jump -> airdodge. If the victim doing nothing didn't let them out, I'd try all that stuff with each target. If I recall, it made a difference in a few cases, but I didn't document it.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

EDIT: Removed long post about why Mario Bros. should be legal.

I believe it deserves it's own thread and over-view. I'll post that up tomorrow.

 

[Ghostbone]

But but......turtles...TURTLES!!!!!!!
lol but it actually plays fine, Olimar isn't even that good on it.
And yea it balances match-ups because every character can basically abuse the same thing.

 

[ぱみゅ]

It's only problem is overcentralizing.... But in a positive sense, imo.

The way the stage is played is WAAAAY different than any other, but I don't see that as a problem, it actually adds depht to the game.

 

[AMKalmar]

If you think "avoid normal conflict, get shell-creeper, throw shell-creeper, repeat" is deep, then yeah, it add so much depth.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

If you think "avoid normal conflict, get shell-creeper, throw shell-creeper, repeat" is deep, then yeah, it add so much depth.

How you define "normal conflict"?

Smashville's conflict is equally as normal as this stages', as they are both apart of the same game.

And have you played on this stage seriously at all? I addressed the shell-creeper thing in my post. It is more effective to fight normally with the shell-creeper's aid than to just camp with them in a lot (the majority) of match-ups.

We also don't ban things for removing depth anyway, or else Hobbling would be banned.

 

[AMKalmar]

Normal conflict would be the sort or play that occurs on the large majority of the stages - fighting your opponent. I'm not saying you shouldn't have to deal with the stage, but the gimmick of this stage is very overpowering. It may be more effective to fight normally, but I can camp you with shell-creepers the whole time. Falco could potentially never have to go in for the kill in some match-ups.

Yes, people should try it just like they should try all stages. But it will never be legal. The walk-offs, cave, minor circle, and powerful gimmick make it obvious to most that this stage would not be fit for the sort of play that we desire to see in tournaments.

 

[T-block]

Fandango, what are your thoughts on Fox vs. most of the cast on that stage though?

 

[Tesh]

Why would you want to make mario bros. legal? Even without the hazards that instakill, its got a circle and the stage given projectiles do not help enough in stopping the circle.

You could teach people all about the lasers on Spear Pillar, but here is still a circle there.


Someone really should be testing out the Green Greens glitch (smash lab?) and the chaingrabs on YI:M.

 

[Luneth]

Someone really should be testing out the Green Greens glitch (smash lab?) and the chaingrabs on YI:M.[/QUOTE]

What glitches are there on Green Greens?

 

[Ghostbone]

The circle on mario bros. really isn't effective once you have the shell-creepers walking around, plus the opponent throwing them at you.
I've tried circle camping on that stage, with fox, wario, jigglypuff and sonic, it doesn't work.

The green greens glitch is where the hitbox of the exploding block stays out after it goes away, but nobody has figured out how to activate it.

 

[Tesh]

So the hazards are so intrusive that you can't reasonably avoid them and your opponent? Why would that be a plus for the stage? In any case, I don't see how hard it would be to reflect them with fox, or instant toss them back, or spotdodge, or shield. And once you have mastered that, the game is over. There is nothing else to the stage.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Normal conflict would be the sort or play that occurs on the large majority of the stages - fighting your opponent. I'm not saying you shouldn't have to deal with the stage, but the gimmick of this stage is very overpowering. It may be more effective to fight normally, but I can camp you with shell-creepers the whole time. Falco could potentially never have to go in for the kill in some match-ups.

Yes, people should try it just like they should try all stages. But it will never be legal. The walk-offs, cave, minor circle, and powerful gimmick make it obvious to most that this stage would not be fit for the sort of play that we desire to see in tournaments.

Fandango, what are your thoughts on Fox vs. most of the cast on that stage though?

Why would you want to make mario bros. legal? Even without the hazards that instakill, its got a circle and the stage given projectiles do not help enough in stopping the circle.

You could teach people all about the lasers on Spear Pillar, but here is still a circle there.


Someone really should be testing out the Green Greens glitch (smash lab?) and the chaingrabs on YI:M.

The circle on mario bros. really isn't effective once you have the shell-creepers walking around, plus the opponent throwing them at you.
I've tried circle camping on that stage, with fox, wario, jigglypuff and sonic, it doesn't work.

The green greens glitch is where the hitbox of the exploding block stays out after it goes away, but nobody has figured out how to activate it.

So the hazards are so intrusive that you can't reasonably avoid them and your opponent? Why would that be a plus for the stage? In any case, I don't see how hard it would be to reflect them with fox, or instant toss them back, or spotdodge, or shield. And once you have mastered that, the game is over. There is nothing else to the stage.

Making a thread guys >_>

Go back to talking about whatever you were talking about.

 

[BSP]

With the way our community acts, I think you guys would be wasting your time trying to prove that Mario Bros. is a good stage.

 

[Tesh]

This entire sub forum is a waste of time aside from the informative threads.

 

[Luxor]

Basically why I stopped posting here seriously lol. Educating the masses is soo hard, plus the pay is terrible.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

It's not a waste.

It allows people to know why stages should be legal or not be legal while having freedom to discuss these.

 

[Life]

Why are Jungle Japes, Green Greens, Norfair, Distant Planet, Pirate Ship, Luigi's Mansion, PTAD, and Pipes banned?

/onlyhalftrolling

 

[BSP]

It's an o.k. I guess, but I see Raziek's point about the dropping of the recommended ruleset. There's going to be nearly no incentive to test stuff really.

 

[WindMajor]

Also, there's no reason why they can't co-exist, especially since it's two different groups of people making each list.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

It's an o.k. I guess, but I see Raziek's point about the dropping of the recommended ruleset. There's going to be nearly no incentive to test stuff really.

Never stopped people before 3.1 was made.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

If you think "avoid normal conflict, get shell-creeper, throw shell-creeper, repeat" is deep, then yeah, it add so much depth.

Normal conflict would be the sort or play that occurs on the large majority of the stages - fighting your opponent. I'm not saying you shouldn't have to deal with the stage, but the gimmick of this stage is very overpowering. It may be more effective to fight normally, but I can camp you with shell-creepers the whole time. Falco could potentially never have to go in for the kill in some match-ups.

Yes, people should try it just like they should try all stages. But it will never be legal. The walk-offs, cave, minor circle, and powerful gimmick make it obvious to most that this stage would not be fit for the sort of play that we desire to see in tournaments.

Fandango, what are your thoughts on Fox vs. most of the cast on that stage though?

Why would you want to make mario bros. legal? Even without the hazards that instakill, its got a circle and the stage given projectiles do not help enough in stopping the circle.

You could teach people all about the lasers on Spear Pillar, but here is still a circle there.


Someone really should be testing out the Green Greens glitch (smash lab?) and the chaingrabs on YI:M.

So the hazards are so intrusive that you can't reasonably avoid them and your opponent? Why would that be a plus for the stage? In any case, I don't see how hard it would be to reflect them with fox, or instant toss them back, or spotdodge, or shield. And once you have mastered that, the game is over. There is nothing else to the stage.

Mario Bros. thread has been made: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=11708456

 

[Raziek]

Never stopped people before 3.1 was made.

Ryu, if you think that after removing the recommended ruleset, NEW players will use anything other than what's on that list, you're sorely mistaken.

What's even worse, is the requirements to join that group and make educated changes.

I'd have to ban 9+ stages just to have my opinion COUNT, even though I'm probably one of the most informed people on this board when it comes to stages.

It's exclusionary, and the group itself is DESIGNED to be resistant to change.

 

[Flayl]

Does anybody have a video with all (or just some, I'm not picky) of the klaptrap setups on Jungle Japes, with DI?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Ryu, if you think that after removing the recommended ruleset, NEW players will use anything other than what's on that list, you're sorely mistaken.

What's even worse, is the requirements to join that group and make educated changes.

I'd have to ban 9+ stages just to have my opinion COUNT, even though I'm probably one of the most informed people on this board when it comes to stages.

It's exclusionary, and the group itself is DESIGNED to be resistant to change.

I don't see anything in the OP that is stating that you have to change your stagelist.

Granted it might also be the fact people like Xyro think your too adamant from compromising at all, I'm not saying that you are mind you.

They aren't going to stop changing the stage list if evidence proves that some stages are fair.

And finally, nothing is stopping people from trying stages out, nothing is physically stopping people from doing this.

 

[-LzR-]

Does anybody have a video with all (or just some, I'm not picky) of the klaptrap setups on Jungle Japes, with DI?

Spike into it? No real weird setups.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I don't see anything in the OP that is stating that you have to change your stagelist.

Granted it might also be the fact people like Xyro think your too adamant from compromising at all, I'm not saying that you are mind you.

They aren't going to stop changing the stage list if evidence proves that some stages are fair.

And finally, nothing is stopping people from trying stages out, nothing is physically stopping people from doing this.

Except the COMMON mentality of "I just won't waste my time trying".

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Except the COMMON mentality of "I just won't waste my time trying".

How is it their problem if the community doesn't want to test the stages?

If people really want to test them they will, it's not the groups responsibility to get people interested in testing, but rather to make a universal compromised ruleset at a national level.

 

[Luneth]

Ryu, if you think that after removing the recommended ruleset, NEW players will use anything other than what's on that list, you're sorely mistaken.

What's even worse, is the requirements to join that group and make educated changes.

I'd have to ban 9+ stages just to have my opinion COUNT, even though I'm probably one of the most informed people on this board when it comes to stages.

It's exclusionary, and the group itself is DESIGNED to be resistant to change.

Thats funny i remember you being against a new time out clause because it was different and not everyone would be bothered to use it

 

[Raziek]

Thats funny i remember you being against a new time out clause because it was different and not everyone would be bothered to use it

I was against it because it was excessively complex, still had flaws, and still ultimately succumbed to the main flaw of the current rule.

The benefit was not enough to justify replacement.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

National Stage list for 2011.

Battlefield
Battleship Halberd
Brinstar
Castle Siege
Delfino Plaza
Final Destination
Lylat Cruise
Pokemon Stadium 1
Pokémon Stadium 2
Frigate Orpheon
Picto Chat
Rainbow Cruise
Smashville
Yoshi's Island
*One stage ban per player

I really surprised this hasn't been talked about here as much.

For me it's almost everything I would want on a stage list, maybe adding japes. I'm pretty content, how to do other people feel about this.

 

[Tesh]

Pictochat still does the nonsense in the middle of tournament matches that shifts things ridiculously. Its not anywhere near as restricted as places like Green Greens, Yoshi's Island and it doesn't have anything close to fair warning like the pokemon stadiums.

Things randomly popping up almost everywhere doesn't really test any skill. Hopefully this stage will eventually be banned.

 

[UberMario]

It's too conservative, and Pictochat being on a conservative list is something I can't take seriously.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Please, stop bashing Pictochat....
I'll reply properly tomorrow, I currently have over 36 hours without sleep...

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'm surprised by the pictochat hate recently, I didn't think that people against it to this extent.

Just something I've noticed.

 

[Tesh]

Well wasn't the 14 second timer theory disproved? However taxing it would be to keep up with the timing of the hazards in the beginning of the match, if it truly was on a strict timer like japes or castle seige, I would see things differently. However the safe zone is just too small to expect people to hang out there predictably out of fear.

Personally my mains are somewhat immune to these troubles, but I do notice alot of BS things happen to characters with lower mobility. Spikes can show up in the middle of an airdodge and take a stock. Hazards on the sides can gimp/interrupt recoveries.

Anyway I'm sure we have all been through this debate before. I guess people just differ on the perception of these hazards.

 

[UberMario]

I'm surprised by the pictochat hate recently, I didn't think that people against it to this extent.

Just something I've noticed.

Well, it does have some troubling factors, of the 27 transformations:

Spoiler

-6 have solid walls (The Brick Tower, Whale, Sailboat, Picasso Eyes, Pre-Facepalm Man, and the Fence)
-6 directly damage the players (The Embers, Horizontal Spikes, Fence, Piranha Plant, Rockets, and the Moving Crate on a Half-Pipe)
-3 of them can be hidden in ONLY IF you were already there when it started drawing. (The Whale, Sailboat, and Brick Tower)
-3 can kill the player (The fence [which can spawn as you are falling, which with it's high-ish knocback can be fatal over 110%], the notoriously gimp-causing Picasso Eyes, and the Wind-Blowing face, which can block some recoveries if it forms as they are being executed)

The other transformations are fine, but the Picasso Eyes and Fence are really detrimental to gameplay here. As I said before, the reason Pictochat is chosen as much as it is is because people are used to it, rather than it actually being a good competitive stage. Some glaringly obvious abscences from the "National List" are:

- Jungle Japes (the Klap Traps are almost never a factor, and since they appear in a specific location at a specific second, there should be no reason in competitive play to be hit by it UNLESS the opponent strikes you into it purposely, which is the equivalent of being thrown into Halberd's laser, to be honest.)
- Green Greens (I've played on the stage at least 15 times in the past two weeks online and never ONCE did anyone end up getting hit by a bomb block. And even then, when I was thrown into a stationary bomb block, I was able to take the hit when I was already at 110%)
-Norfair (Those lava plumes are not that hard to avoid, as I have said before, the hitbox is not as large as the actual model, so there is a safe zone even in between them, and they seem to appear in fixed locations, so someone should be able to determine where the true safe zones are when they appear. The lava walls are easy to avoid, aswell.)
-Port Town (Yes, you heard me, this stage is far more balanced than people believe it is. The cars are INCREDIBLY easy to avoid (even less likely is to get killed by them, as there is plenty of warning for when they come at every zone and virtually every character can at least survive a car impact at 60%), and the lower kill zone only appears for very short times, so the lack of ledges is NOT a problem.)
-Distant Planet (The circle camping factor is extremely exaggerated, for one thing, the "circle" is not solid, and virtually every character can intercept a circle camper by simply jumping through the platform.)

YI (M), PiSh, LM, are unpopular enough that they shouldn't be banned simply because they aren't going to come up that often anyway, so more power to whoever learns those stages. The ones I posted in the above paragraph should be legal regardless of usage amounts. (Whereas Pictochat PROBABLY shouldn't be legal, much less if those aren't)

Well wasn't the 14 second timer theory disproved?

Yes, the very first Pictochat video I looked up on Youtube showed varying durations, including an "idle time" between two transformations that had only lasted 5 seconds.

 

[Tesh]

Also don't forget the wind blowing face on the right side also can gimp characters recovering high sometimes.

 

[UberMario]

Also don't forget the wind blowing face on the right side also can gimp characters recovering high sometimes.

True, I never considered that, but I think you are right, if I recall it is a solid drawing aswell. Speaking of wind, does anyone know if that windbox-grab-freeze glitch is possible on Pictochat? Or does that only apply to Link's Gale Boomerang due to him grabbing it mid-throw?