Official Stage Legality Discussion: Stage Specific

[Ghostbone]

If the line hasn't appeared yet in the match and you are in the left side of the stage, wtf are you doing there?

Hoping not to get hit into the hazards on the right side of the stage?

 

[T-block]

I know how to play on Pictochat. I also know how to play on WarioWare, Corneria and Mario Circuit, but all the practice in the world doesn't make it fit for competitive play.

@ Tblock
You are basically pointing out that a legal stage already does something bad for competition by giving out free saves. Yet you want a stage that hands out freebies all over the stage all game in all kinds of situations.

Big deal Espy shielded a missle. We all know the hazards can be dealt with on the ground if you weren't already doing something. Just because the stage didn't ruin that match doesn't mean it doesn't ruin others. It CAN. I'm sure you could play with a restricted set of items on low and get the same effect as pictochat. Why isn't that legal? I bet the better player would still win on WarioWare most of the time, why isn't that legal?


How exactly do very few of them matter? They can all cause things to go wrong because of how fast they draw in. Randomly popping up platforms can induce landing lag at unexpected times. Walls and ceilings can save lives and block committed movements. The platforms and springs on the sides of the stage save lives too.

And yes, maybe if the stage only had 1 tamer transformation (not the spikes) it would be a good legal stage. But unless you have some ideas for Bbrawl or Brawl plus or whatever, its irrelevant.

Your response to random events having a negative effect on competition is to add more random events. I'm asking you again, why not put some items back on? Why not play on WarioWare? You said these effects are okay right?

You say Yoshi's Island giving out free stocks is okay. You said Pictochat giving out free KOs is okay. Well why not a random gooey bomb popping up? You knew there was possibility of a gooey bomb popping up while you were jabbing. You got outplayed if it blows up and you die at 80%. What about invincibility from a star? Its not quite as good as pictochat blocking your opponent's recovery, but you can attack relentlessly for a few seconds at least (probably won't take an entire stock though).

So here is what he have.

We both say Yoshi's Island is okay.

I draw my line in the sand

You say Pictochat is okay

You draw your line in the sand.

Why didn't you give WarioWare a chance? Or items?

Honestly, tell me whats worse about a very tame set of items on low or WarioWare. Both arguably have less significant effects on a match.

You missed the point. The whole point is that Yoshi's Island is probably JUST AS RANDOM as Pictochat. I don't have solid proof of that, but I've made my reasons for believing so quite clear on several occasions.

"We both say Yoshi's Island is okay. I draw my line in the sand. You say Pictochat is okay. You draw your line in the sand." This ASSUMES that Pictochat is worse than Yoshi's Island. It should be "We both say Yoshi's Island is okay. You draw your line in the sand. I say that Pictochat actually falls on your side of the line."

If you're going to follow that approach, I could easily just flip this around on you. Sure, randomness is bad, and yes, we could remove a lot more randomness from this game than we currently do. So let's say we agreed Pictochat is too random to be legal. Why do we stop there? Why not remove Yoshi's Island as well?

 

[-LzR-]

You must have gotten hit to the left side, be careful about going offstage to the left if the line hasn't appeared yet. If you still go there, you were aware of the risk or the opponent threw you there as he is aware that it may appear when they recover.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Just watch, next -LzR- will say that tripping isn't a problem, every player should expect it at every situation and always jump everywhere so as not to trigger it.

 

[-LzR-]

Well yeah, tripping is random and dumb, but it has never had any impact on the match if you just roll from a safe position. You can't do anything about it, but it's not dangerous. It aids IC, but that's pretty much all there is to it.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Well yeah, tripping is random and dumb, but it has never had any impact on the match if you just roll from a safe position. You can't do anything about it, but it's not dangerous. It aids IC, but that's pretty much all there is to it.

Well yeah, the Picto hazards are random and dub, but it has never had any impact on the match if you just avoid going off-stage on the left, off-stage on the right, jump height in the center of the stage, or at any of the points where the fence appears.

 

[-LzR-]

Pictochat rewards stagecontrol greatly. You can't do **** about the line if you happen to be offstage on the left AND have a ****ty recovery.

All of the others appear first, then get a hitbox a second later.
The line is vice versa, the ledge disappears before the line even appears.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

It isn't about stage control.

No one seriously thinks in their mind "Oh, if I intentionally hit them to the left instead of the right, there is a 1/whatever chance of them dieing".

It just happens. This is because it is TOO unpredictable. It doesn't happen on a timer, and they appear too fast.

 

[ぱみゅ]

No one seriously thinks in their mind "Oh, if I intentionally hit them to the left instead of the right, there is a 1/whatever chance of them dieing".

They should. That's what stage control there is about.
If not, how do you plan on getting any profit from it?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

They should. That's what stage control there is about.
If not, how do you plan on getting any profit from it?

They plan on getting profit from it because knocking the opponent off-stage is almost ALWAYS a good thing.

You are rewarding one of THE most common actions in this game (attacking) randomly.

 

[-LzR-]

It happens once in a match and it rarely happens to gimp anyone.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

It happens once in a match and it rarely happens to gimp anyone.

Different hazards appear, so make that several times in a match.

They do gimp people. I've lost a tournament because of it, and seen others lose important matches via chance.

 

[-LzR-]

I can't say anything about that. To me, it's pretty much the exact opposite to YI ghost's, except less of a problem.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

YI is much better.

It can only appear in one of two places, so you can always cover at least one of their spawn positions (and you would always cover the one that combat is currently taking place around, it's not like it is a 50/50 thing).

 

[-LzR-]

In Picto, the line can only appear in one place and it can only appear once. In YI there is no pattern or anything nonrandom about them in general.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

In Picto, the line can only appear in one place and it can only appear once. In YI there is no pattern or anything nonrandom about them in general.

In Picto, there are other hazards which can kill you in different areas.

The line itself is comparable with YI, the whole stage isn't.

 

[-LzR-]

We are talking about the line. No other transformation wrecks your recovery and can be avoided on reaction.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

We are talking about the line. No other transformation wrecks your recovery and can be avoided on reaction.

Why are we just talking about the line?

That's like going to a Norfair discussion and saying "This stage should be legal because the lava wave is fair, oh, and we aren't talking about the other problems with the stage".

 

[-LzR-]

I don't know what we are talking about now.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I was talking about why I think the whole stage should be banned, because it's randomness is too difficult to deal with.

 

[-LzR-]

All right. I don't think it should be banned. From extensive playtesting the stage hasn't proved to be banworthy.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Define ban-worthy in your own opinion.

 

[-LzR-]

That's a tough one my friend.

A banworthy stage is a stage that overcentralizes the game.
One example is your Mario Bros. it may be ok, but the whole game is about abusing the stages mechanics.
And all the circle stages are overcentralizing in that tactic. Same for permanent walkoffs, thought this has't been proven.

Pictochat has random mechanics, which a good player can still abuse.
It's kinda like if you freefall in YI, you will of course aim for the area where the ghost appears and hope you get lucky.

I am very openminded when it comes to stages.
Have you seen the Finnish ruleset I use?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

That's a tough one my friend.

A banworthy stage is a stage that overcentralizes the game.
One example is your Mario Bros. it may be ok, but the whole game is about abusing the stages mechanics.
And all the circle stages are overcentralizing in that tactic. Same for permanent walkoffs, thought this has't been proven.

Pictochat has random mechanics, which a good player can still abuse.
It's kinda like if you freefall in YI, you will of course aim for the area where the ghost appears and hope you get lucky.

I am very openminded when it comes to stages.
Have you seen the Finnish ruleset I use?

I feel that Pictochat's random hazards are random to the point where a good player CANNOT use them to his advantage, thus, they randomly interfere with gameplay. It appears we have the same criteria, we have just drawn our line at different points.

I'd love to see the Finnish ruleset.

 

[-LzR-]

Prepare to be shocked: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=11722754&postcount=40

 

[Ghostbone]

Lack of Pirate Ship annoys me XD

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Prepare to be shocked: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=11722754&postcount=40

Alright...
I disagree with FD as a starter.

Probably some other stuff as well... Whatever.

My ruleset would probably be something like:
PS2
SV
Delfino
Siege
Some other stage

xD

 

[-LzR-]

I love Pirate Ship, but that is too much even for me.
And Luigi's Mansion is just horrible. It overcentralizes teching. Like Pirate Ship does with water.
I have FD as a starter because the starterlist is already huge enough so FD fits in.
Without 5 starters, FD is a bad idea.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

FD is legit in a huge starter list (read: 9-11).

 

[Grim Tuesday]

FD is legit in a huge starter list (read: 9-11).

Whatever.

BPC, what would the top ten most competitive stages be in your opinion (in order)?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

FD is legit in a huge starter list (read: 9-11).

I'd put it on a 5 list, if people are not fit with that it should be on a 7. imo.

 

[-LzR-]

I use a 9 starter list. FD is perfect for that one. In a 3 starter list, Mario Bros would be better than FD thanks to Grim.

 

[UberMario]

I can't say anything about that. To me, it's pretty much the exact opposite to YI ghost's, except less of a problem.

Actually it's more of a problem. The Support Ghosts can only appear in two places, if it appears on the side your opponent is, odds are you are there too anyway to limit the positive effects of the SGs [for the person recovering], that's not the case on Picto.

In Picto, the line can only appear in one place and it can only appear once. In YI there is no pattern or anything nonrandom about them in general.

You can either look at it two ways:

-The Pictochat line is always in the same place, so it's a pattern
-The Support Ghosts always appear in the same place and rise at the same speed, so it's a pattern/

OR

-The transformations are chosen randomly at Pictochat, there is no true pattern.
-The Support Ghosts appear randomly, there is no true pattern.

It doesn't work both ways though, if you consider one to have a pattern (or not), then you have to consider the other one to be a pattern aswell under the same criteria.

We are talking about the line. No other transformation wrecks your recovery and can be avoided on reaction.

Although it's less common, the air-blowing head is solid too, and is big enough to be a threat to horizontal-recovery-dependant characters or to characters that have already initiated a horizontal recovery move, as it prevents them from returning to the stage.

Prepare to be shocked: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=11722754&postcount=40

Needs more Distant Planet and Port Town, maybe Yoshi's Island Melee too.

There's no overcentralizing tactics on the former (walkoff campers get pushed off by the rain (but can still grab the ledge, so the rain doesn't impede gameplay.), and since it's a slope, it's harder to be chained by several of the characters), Port Town's walkoffs are pretty insignificant, as are the cars [totally serious], but YI is borderline due to the low KO ceiling and left border.

 

[Tesh]

Well yeah, tripping is random and dumb, but it has never had any impact on the match if you just roll from a safe position. You can't do anything about it, but it's not dangerous. It aids IC, but that's pretty much all there is to it.

Did you really just say tripping has never had any impact on the match? Any time you trip, it can make you miss a follow up or punish. It can be a free tech chase for opponents. You can trip into punishment any time you try to hyphen smash, dash attack, dash cancel smashes, sliding shield.

Limiting yourself to only rolling, walking and jumping is just as dumb trying to spend the entire match in that little safe zone on Pictochat. Yes you could remove a random factor for yourself by doing it, but you wind up handicapping yourself so much by being there. The stage isn't over centralized because its just too random for anyone to intentionally abuse anything. Just the same as you can't form a solid skill based plan around item spawning all over the stage.

 

[-LzR-]

Pipes, DP or Port Town won't be legal in my tourneys.
I have always been pro Port Town and I love that stage. I just feel like it's a little bit too much for my criterias.

Pipes and DP are stages I need to know much more about before I will even consider why they aren't legal in my tourneys...

 

[ぱみゅ]

Pipes and DP are stages I need to know much more about before I will even consider why they aren't legal in my tourneys...

So... you ban them because you wannot to learn them... =/

 

[Raziek]

No, he means he wants to know if there are extremely abusable mechanics, before he gives them testing.

 

[-LzR-]

Exactly Raziek. Now prove me wrong.

I was always against PS2 and Green Greens in the past.

After I read BPC's post about it and playtested it a lot, I have come to the conclusion that it will be a starter in my tournaments.

Green Greens is really borderline stage. Reading Praxis's post, I decided to give a try and it has received very positive feedback so far. After learning the stage a little, I get hit by the bombs like once a match and I don't even know how to play on the stage. They are a bit too powerful IMO, but they can be abused smartly and the stage is kinda awesome. Needs more testing.

I want to hear more about DP and other stages.

Thought I think our stagelist is kinda done now. I don't think if I should add anything as our list is really liberal already.

 

[UberMario]

IMO Distant Planet is Tier 2 CP worthy [going by the current system] at least, there aren't any overcentralizing tactics really, but the five features brought up the most about DP are the walkfoff camping, circle camping, the seed items, the rain, and the Bulborb.

Walkoff Camping:

For one thing, it's a steep slope, which makes it hard for most characters to properly chaingrab, especially if they practice almost exclusively on flat stages. This slope is also not connected to the regular battlefield, so if you're chain grabbed on the green vines, you can escape before getting onto the hill EASILY. The rain will also flush out anyone abusing the slopes, which means that it can be considered a "temporary" walkoff in the loosest sense.

Circle Camping:

This is probably the most exaggerated "issue" for the stage. For one thing, the green vines are NOT solid when moving through them upwards, so a person chasing a circle camper can cut through it and intercept them. This applies both ways, as you can grab the right ledge of the vines, make it seem like you're chasing them underneath the stage, and mid-air-jump-to-recovery/aerial to damage them. Even if you get interrupted, the ledge of the slope is close enough for you not to be gimped (unless you're at high damage and get hit by something through the stage, like, Diddy's D-Air). You can also leap off the slope's ledge and not need to use your recovery in order to get through the stage, not to mention that the circle isn't that big to begin with.

Seed Items:

They are WEAK, even though they can ratch up damage (about 10% per hit), they have knockback comparable to one of Peach's normal turnips: enough to interrupt an attack, but not to kill directly.
Even when they are allowed to grow to their strongest the "10" mark, they are still far weaker than ZSS's suit parts, not to mention they can be seen coming a mile away due to their huge size.

The rain:

There aren't any really bothersome affects caused by the rain, it only affects the slope (which will produce a current that can wash walkoff-campers away), BUT, you can still grab the slope's ledge, even if you were pushed off by the rain itself, so it's not a big deal at all and actually makes the stage more viable.

The Bulborb:

This thing is so far offstage that you LITERALLY have to go out of your way to get killed by it, I've yet to be gimped into it's mouth, and, although you can become automatically eaten if you spend too long on it, it gives you plenty of time to get off of it, with the only likely reason for you to be killed this way is if you get impaled into the head by DK's headbutt, which requires you to be fighting on the Bulborb to begin with. Kirby, DeDeDe, and DK could do a sacrificial KO into the mouth, but the timing makes it VERY unlikely, as the defender will be able to struggle out by the time the other player gets into the mouth, not to mention it takes a while before it will actually close.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Seed Items helps for stopping circle camping when used smartly.
Burblob can be abused by gimping people directly into it... But it is hard to perform for most characters (even MK has hard times trying abuse it).
Overall, I think there's not a realistic problem with it....