[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[Pieman0920]

Really? I just searched through the DP attackdex on Serebii and didn't see Jiggs in there. :V

 

[flyinfilipino]

Really? I just searched through the DP attackdex on Serebii and didn't see Jiggs in there. :V

That's probably because it doesn't cover 1st Gen TM moves and 3rd Gen tutor moves; check Bulbapedia for all the Pokemon moveset info you could ever ask for, and then some (poking around on Serebii some more might yield the same results).

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Jigglypuff_(Pokémon)/Generation_I_learnset#By_TM.2FHM

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Jigglypuff_(Pokémon)/Generation_III_learnset#By_tutoring

 

[Fatmanonice]

That all does make sense... Little Mac technically wouldn't be restricted to a boxing ring. Hmm... he's in Smash rather than the WCC so he wouldn't be bound by the rules he normally would thus not making things like kicks and throws that unreasonable... Anybody have any moveset ideas? I was thinking that Von Kaiser's knock out punch could be his fsmash.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76WKN6cQvn8&feature=related

 

[Spydr Enzo]

BALLOON FIGHTER MOVESET!
*NOTE: Look down the page for the red text saying "MOVESET!" if you want to skip to the moveset. The first two paragraphs (below) are just reasons why Balloon Fighter is a better choice than Mac.


If Sakurai can't think of a reasonable moveset for the Balloon Fighter while still being unique and I can, than there is no reason to not have a decent moveset for him in SSB4.

INTRO

First of all, Balloon Fighter and Little Mac are very different characters, but they are the same in that they don't have a wide variety of moves to make a moveset out of. But Captain Falcon never even fought, and he has a moveset. Most of the moves of the Star Fox characters were never used by them, I could g on. A moveset can be made for both of these people, but which one is most original?

Think about it, Little Mac is not a very unique character. His noyl real moves would be punching, and thats it. Some may say that he can't grapple and kick, etc. and while that is a bit of a stretch, how are you going to create an entire 20 move moveset (somewhere around 20) that is made up of only kicking and punching moves. Little Mac can't get any Super powers like Captain Falcon, it is totally out of his character and Sakurai most likely wouldn't appeal to that. And while super fire powers may be out of Falcon's characer, his fighting characetr was never really defined, while Mac's has.


NOW WHY BALLOON FIGHTER?

To make this simpler, refer to the post linked in my signature. Its a well-thought out post about why the Balloon Fighter could be given an arsenal of moves that Mac can't.


ON TO THE MOVE SET!

You didn't think it was possible... but I've created a moveset for the Balloon Fighter, a very unique one as well. Sakurai enjoys working on unique characters, and Little Mac is certainly not unique like Balloon Fighter would be. Now most of this moveset is made up of moves used in the game Balloon Fight, but three of the special moves are borrowed from enemy balloon fighters. Don't say this is out of character: Ness and Lucas use bats and sticks, something they never really used, but they were parts of their respective games, and therefore, it isn't too surprising that they use them.

Anyway, I'll go thruogh the moveset's special moves in this order:

DOWN B: ~ Balloon Pump
UP B: ~ Parachute
STANDARD B: ~ Flipper
SIDE B: ~ Sky Dive


DOWN B: ~ Balloon Pump
This is the most important move of the Balloon Fighter. He starts out with no balloons and he can walk around, attack (simple punches/kicks) etc. (by the way, you can't argue punches and kicks like you can with Little Mac, because its virtually all Little Mac has). Anyway, press down B and the fighter will begin to pump up one of his balloons. It takes five pumps to completely pump up one, and about 3-4 seconds. After one is pumped, he will begin pumping the other one (note, you don't need to repeatedly press B to pump, just press down B once and he starts until you press B again). If you are attacked while pumping, your Balloon that was being pumped will deflate. To avoid this, press B to stop pumping before being hit, and continue later.

What does this move actually do for you though? One pumped balloon will give you two extra jumps. The balloon has to be fully pumped though. You can have a total of two balloons, so in the end, you will have a total of 6 jumps (including the first jump and the double jump). Taking damage deflates the balloons, every 15% damage will deflate a balloon one level (there are five levels before a balloon is completely deflated). You will keep your jumps until the balloon is completely deflated.

This move was seen used by the enemy fighters in Balloon fight at the start of each phase.

UP B: ~ Parachute

The Balloon Fighter can jump high with his balloons, but he is heavier than you may think and doesn't have such a great horizontal recovery. Pressing up B will pull out the parachute which will cause the fighter to hover in the air while slowly falling. He can move left and right to recover but moving causes you to drop faster. This move lasts as long as Pit's up B. Note that this move deflates your balloons, so only use it when necessary.

This move was seen used by enemy fighters in Balloon fight when they lost their balloons.

STANDARD B: ~ Flipper

We all remember the flipper in Melee, this item was from Balloon Fight. Balloon Fighter pulls one out and it flips around in front of him, deflecting projectiles that come his way. It is similar to Pit's side B, as it can also hurt enemies, but it is does not score consecutive hits, instead it simply knocks enemies away with a small amount of damage.

This move was not used in Balloon Fight, but it was present in many of the stages.

SIDE B: ~ Sky Dive

This is Balloon Fighter's signature move and is the only way he attacked in Balloon Fight. This move can only be used in the air, so keep your balloons pumped. While in the air, press side B and the fighter will dive toward the ground below him, scoring consecutive hits as he makes contact with enemies below. If you are high in the air, the Balloon Fighter will swoop down and rise up again slightly, but if you are near the ground, he will simply land heavily.

This move was used by the Balloon Fighter in Balloon Fight.

DONE!


So you see, the Balloon fighter is a very unique character, and his moveset is a lot more fun to play with and create than Little Macs assortment of Kicking and Punching. And osmeone said Little Mac's simplicity would be better from a designers point of view... apparently not. Sakurai enjoys designing unique characters, its what makes creating the game worth it for him.



So what do you think?

 

[ScoobyCafe]

That all does make sense... Little Mac technically wouldn't be restricted to a boxing ring. Hmm... he's in Smash rather than the WCC so he wouldn't be bound by the rules he normally would thus not making things like kicks and throws that unreasonable... Anybody have any moveset ideas? I was thinking that Von Kaiser's knock out punch could be his fsmash.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76WKN6cQvn8&feature=related

I posted two quick special movesets―one for Lip and Mac. Not sure if you overlooked them or not, but check them out and tell me what you think about them.

@Spydr Enzo: I thought your moveset is decent at best, but you should probably change the up special (too reminiscent of G&W's up+B). I think the moveset Clownbot posted is a bit better.

 

[Pieman0920]

INTRO

First of all, Balloon Fighter and Little Mac are very different characters, but they are the same in that they don't have a wide variety of moves to make a moveset out of. But Captain Falcon never even fought, and he has a moveset. Most of the moves of the Star Fox characters were never used by them, I could g on. A moveset can be made for both of these people, but which one is most original?

Think about it, Little Mac is not a very unique character. His noyl real moves would be punching, and thats it. Some may say that he can't grapple and kick, etc. and while that is a bit of a stretch, how are you going to create an entire 20 move moveset (somewhere around 20) that is made up of only kicking and punching moves. Little Mac can't get any Super powers like Captain Falcon, it is totally out of his character and Sakurai most likely wouldn't appeal to that. And while super fire powers may be out of Falcon's characer, his fighting characetr was never really defined, while Mac's has.

Little Mac can easily borrow moves from his opponents, and he does have super powers in his own game (See Giga Mac) Also as you bring up Captain Falcon, aka a character who ony uses physical moves spliced in with a few flashy fire moves, Mac's got flashy moves in POWii thanks to his star uppercuts. In addition, a moveset based around getting stars to power up other special moves would be unique enough to set him apart form a standard moveset. Lastly, there would be no probem for Mac to use some of the moves that his opponents use, like Bald Bull's wind up punches, Von Kaiser's OHKO move, or Sandman's Dreamland express. Heck he could even use Aran Ryan's glove on a string attack, though I think that's better off as a item.

And remember, Sakurai isn't confirmed to be making the next game, but if you really want BF then you should hope that he isn't, since he's said himself he can't think of a real good way for him to fight.

 

[majora_787]

Little Mac can easily borrow moves from his opponents, and he does have super powers in his own game (See Giga Mac) Also as you bring up Captain Falcon, aka a character who ony uses physical moves spliced in with a few flashy fire moves, Mac's got flashy moves in POWii thanks to his star uppercuts. In addition, a moveset based around getting stars to power up other special moves would be unique enough to set him apart form a standard moveset. Lastly, there would be no probem for Mac to use some of the moves that his opponents use, like Bald Bull's wind up punches, Von Kaiser's OHKO move, or Sandman's Dreamland express. Heck he could even use Aran Ryan's glove on a string attack, though I think that's better off as a item.

And remember, Sakurai isn't confirmed to be making the next game, but if you really want BF then you should hope that he isn't, since he's said himself he can't think of a real good way for him to fight.

There are a FEW characters who would make someone be anti-Sakurai for smash 4...Ridley and Excite Biker to name two.

 

[Arcadenik]

I don't think Balloon Fighter would be in SSB4. He was first replaced by Alice the Balloon Kid and now by Tingle. He's pretty much the new Balloon Fighter, only he has plenty of moves he can use from Tingle's Rupeeland and the sequel.

Sakurai ruled out Bubbles, Urban Champion, Animal Crossing characters, and Nintendogs in addition to Balloon Fighter and Excitebike.

I support Little Mac for SSB4.

 

[Spydr Enzo]

*sigh* There is really no point in arguing it anymore. I know Balloon Fighter would be the next best and most likely choice for a retro character in SSB4 (By the way, I am NOT a balloon fighter fanboy, I've never even played any of the games, I've only watched one video on youtube to see what I was debating about). So I'm not going to argue it anymore, but you will see, if there is a new retro character in SSB4, it will be Balloon Fighter. If Balloon Fighter doesn't get in, neither will Little Mac, because they are basically in the same boat; they're difficult to make movesets for (even though I made a perfectly reasonable Balloon Fighter moveset that no one seemed to pay attention to...).

@Spydr Enzo: I thought your moveset is decent at best, but you should probably change the up special (too reminiscent of G&W's up+B). I think the moveset Clownbot posted is a bit better.

Uhhh, what? Since when was Game and Watch's up B a parachute?

You're obviously referring to his Nair. Go back and read Balloon Fighter's up B. Now take a look at Game & Watch's Nair. Are they really that reminiscent anymore?

 

[Pieman0920]

How are they in the same boat? One is a fighter who pracitices a established style and has a new game (is he a retro character any more?) while the other has been replaced so to say by other characters and at the same time been stated to not be a fighter by the game's most likely director.

 

[Matezoide]

this game only needs a better online,better adventure mode
also they have to put Megaman and Little Mac in,i am preety sure Mac will be a characther to use,thanks to Punch Out wii

and yes,Little Mac is MUCH more likely to appear than Ballon Fighter

 

[Spydr Enzo]

And remember, Sakurai isn't confirmed to be making the next game

I'm getting pretty sick of hearing this... Sakurai said that SSB4 was something that he would have to consider, and he also stated that there are many features he would like added that he wants to keep a lid on. I'm sure Nintendo is going to consult Sakurai before saying "screw you, we're taking over Smash whether you like it or not". If this happens, Sakurai will in some way be behind the lead development of Super Smash Bros.

I still think he will come back for a fourth. I'm sure there will be one, and Sakurai has shown interst by saying he would have to consider it (I see the word "consider" as a much more positive word, usually pointing to yes as opposed to "maybe").

Nintendo knows the series is a big hit and its a good money maker, 'm sure they would want Sakurai behind the development to keep it in the direction that got it famous and popular in the first place.

 

[Spydr Enzo]

How are they in the same boat? One is a fighter who pracitices a established style and has a new game (is he a retro character any more?) while the other has been replaced so to say by other characters and at the same time been stated to not be a fighter by the game's most likely director.

They're both fighters. They're both from NES games that rank among Sakurai's favorites. They can both be a ***** when it comes to creating a moveset. Here's the part where things start getting tough:

LITTLE MAC'S upside...
The thing that majorly boosts Little Mac's chances is, obviously, his new game. He's now more familiar and his popularity has increased.

BALLON FIGHTER'S upside...
Balloon Fighter's upside is that he is a fighter as well, but he is a unique fighter. He doesn't use the standard punch/kick fighting, he is original and unique. Sakurai thinks that the characters are more fun to design if they are original and there is something unique about them.

And a note about Balloon Fighter, he's still the same character. He hasn't been "replaced" by anybody, characters from other series have just taken on similar roles as him. And if this was to be represented, who better than Balloon Fighter, the one that started it with one of Sakurai's favorite NES games.

So, in my opinon (now slightly changed), we don't know what to expect for a new retro character. It could be either Balloon Fighter or Little Mac (and I still believe he counts as retro, but if he doesn't and we still need a rep, its Balloon Fighter). Chances are even, we just have to wait and see.

 

[Pieman0920]

They're both fighters. They're both from NES games that rank among Sakurai's favorites. They can both be a ***** when it comes to creating a moveset. Here's the part where things start getting tough:

In Mac's case, not really. He's a boxer, and boxing is a fighting style that has been used in many different games, and some ideas, such as the grappling can be borrowed from others. Additionally, moves can be borrowed from Mac's opponents, and through that way, its easy to come up with enough. And as I said before, the incorporation of the stars makes him easily unique while staying true to his game.

BALLON FIGHTER'S upside...
Balloon Fighter's upside is that he is a fighter as well, but he is a unique fighter. He doesn't use the standard punch/kick fighting, he is original and unique. Sakurai thinks that the characters are more fun to design if they are original and there is something unique about them.

....You think Balloon Fighter is unique fighter? He's a ripoff. Balloon Fight itself is a ripoff. Have you ever heard of the game Joust? Balloon Fight was a complete and total ripoff of that game. And as far as being unique as a fighter is concerned, other characters, such as Tingle or Alice can basically have all his attacks and there'd be no problems, as they have had remakes of his game. Heck they're both better by the fact that they actually have names and personalities. (Well I guess I shouldn't say that, as I'm not sure of Alice's personality)

And a note about Balloon Fighter, he's still the same character. He hasn't been "replaced" by anybody, characters from other series have just taken on similar roles as him. And if this was to be represented, who better than Balloon Fighter, the one that started it with one of Sakurai's favorite NES games.

You're irnoring the fact that Sakurai also stated that he couldn't picture Balloon Fighter actually fighting. It doesn't matter if its one of his favorite NES games if he doesn't believe that.

 

[Clownbot]

@Spydr Enzo: I thought your moveset is decent at best, but you should probably change the up special (too reminiscent of G&W's up+B). I think the moveset Clownbot posted is a bit better.

Just fyi, I didn't make the moveset. There's a contest here called Make Your Move where you can submit movesets, I just found it there.

On retro characters: Why isn't there more Mach Rider discussion going on in here?

 

[Spydr Enzo]

Just fyi, I didn't make the moveset. There's a contest here called Make Your Move where you can submit movesets, I just found it there.

On retro characters: Why isn't there more Mach Rider discussion going on in here?

There was earlier when I brought up Sakurai's retro list for Melee. He had a list of four retro characters that he wanted included in the game, but time and other issues would only allow for one. These were the four, listed in order of preference: Ice Climbers, Pit, Balloon Fighter, and Mach Rider.

When I brought up Mach Rider, I got a lot of "WTF"-type comments. I don't support him, I'm only stating the facts.

Also, this is another reason why I think Balloon Fighter's chances are higher. Ice Climbers came in Melee, Pit came in Brawl, now who is next on the list? This is just one reason I support Balloon Fighter, on't flame me for it, I don't want to debate it, its an opinion. I'm done with Balloon Fighter... hopefully.

 

[SmashChu]

I can't wait til Smash 4 is announced that way I will spam Sakurai's journal with entries regarding an unwanted, obscure character, and make the West think that character is actually popular.

I have better things to be doing than arguing how a stupid piece of wood won't be getting into Smash Bros.

GENO IS NOT GETTING IN!

You can live in la la land for all you like, but that is the truth.

What is this? You made a claim, and Fatmanonice proved it wrong. And this is your reply? Basically saying "lol NOPE, your still wrong."

Spoiler

(Protip:Beware the Mushroom Forest was in Brawl code, but wasn't used. I have also heard that Sakurai mentioned there was another third party character that he couldn't add. I think you said that.)

@Fatmanonice: In the words of Tim and Eric "Great Job"

Oh, and I have a reply for the meter thing earlier, but I might just skip it. I did want to post some other long BS I wanted to do.

 

[Pieman0920]

I've never heard anything about Sakurai saying that there was a another third party character he wanted to ad. In addition, intended SMRPG music =! intended Geno, which is something that I thought was clear here.

 

[Arcadenik]

According to the Ice Climbers' page on the Melee website (in Japanese), Sakurai had five choices to represent the Famicom - Ice Climbers, Balloon Fighter, Bubbles, Urban Champion, and Excitebike - and he wanted to pick only one. Pit and Mach Rider were not mentioned at all. Sakurai chose Ice Climbers over the four other retro characters because he felt they had the most potential as viable fighters than the others.

Now, there are two retro characters in Melee and in Brawl so I think it is likely that there will be two new retro characters in SSB4. The second retro character will almost undoubtly be the WTF character. I really hope the two retro newcomers are Takamaru and Duck Hunt Dog. I am sure the dog will be very original and bizarre much like Mr. Game & Watch and R.O.B. were in Melee and Brawl.

 

[SmashChu]

@Fatmanonice: One problem we are assuming that he made the roster in 2005. But, it is probably more logical to think it was in 2006, and that 05 was a mistype. If he already had all the characters decided by 2005, then why hold a poll? Lucario and Lucas's games hadn't released at that time. Yet, they were two characters who were requested a lot. In Melee, he showed that he added the most popular characters. We don't know the results of the poll. If he ended up picking some of the most popular characters, it would have been a fluke back in 2005 (again, Lucario and Lucas didn't have games yet). We don't know the poll results so we can only guess. Although, from what I've heard, 9 of the 10 characters from a poll on a Japanese fan site were added (Geno was the one left out). This came from GoNintendo BTW.

When Sakurai said he didn't want to add only popular characters, he meant the roster wouldn't be 100% popular characters. This is evident by him adding R.O.B. and Pokemon Trainer (oh, and I guess Zero Suit Samus). He focuses namely on the popular characters, but does not add only them. He adds what he thinks is worth adding (I think this is one of the four points he made).

 

[Big-Cat]

I'm getting pretty sick of hearing this... Sakurai said that SSB4 was something that he would have to consider, and he also stated that there are many features he would like added that he wants to keep a lid on. I'm sure Nintendo is going to consult Sakurai before saying "screw you, we're taking over Smash whether you like it or not". If this happens, Sakurai will in some way be behind the lead development of Super Smash Bros.

I still think he will come back for a fourth. I'm sure there will be one, and Sakurai has shown interst by saying he would have to consider it (I see the word "consider" as a much more positive word, usually pointing to yes as opposed to "maybe").

Nintendo knows the series is a big hit and its a good money maker, 'm sure they would want Sakurai behind the development to keep it in the direction that got it famous and popular in the first place.

There could be a number of reasons why he couldn't do SSB4. He may be busy working on another game, or some personal problems. Anyway, Nintendo could go on without him. Remember, had Sakurai not taken Iwata's offer to make Brawl, they would've done a Wii port of Melee with online.

If he does make a return, I would like to see another person, with a more competitive mindset, to take the helm with him.

@Fatmanonice: One problem we are assuming that he made the roster in 2005. But, it is probably more logical to think it was in 2006, and that 05 was a mistype. If he already had all the characters decided by 2005, then why hold a poll? Lucario and Lucas's games hadn't released at that time. Yet, they were two characters who were requested a lot. In Melee, he showed that he added the most popular characters. We don't know the results of the poll. If he ended up picking some of the most popular characters, it would have been a fluke back in 2005 (again, Lucario and Lucas didn't have games yet). We don't know the poll results so we can only guess. Although, from what I've heard, 9 of the 10 characters from a poll on a Japanese fan site were added (Geno was the one left out). This came from GoNintendo BTW.

When Sakurai said he didn't want to add only popular characters, he meant the roster wouldn't be 100% popular characters. This is evident by him adding R.O.B. and Pokemon Trainer (oh, and I guess Zero Suit Samus). He focuses namely on the popular characters, but does not add only them. He adds what he thinks is worth adding (I think this is one of the four points he made).

I believe it was indeed 2005 and not a typo. If I could only find it, but Sakurai mentions that he made the roster after being contacted by Iwata.

 

[Pieman0920]

If I remember correctly, didn't Sakurai at one point say that he didn't know he was going to be appointed to be director of Brawl until around the time of the first trailer or something? Or is that just another random thing thrown out on the internet that's just fake? If true though, then it should have been 2006 when he got the roster down. =/

(Even so, I still think that Toon Link, Jigs, and Wolf were all technically later than intended additions, though maybe not as late as Sonic)

 

[Starphoenix]

If he does make a return, I would like to see another person, with a more competitive mindset, to take the helm with him.

NO WAY!!!!!!

If you want competitive, go play Street Fighter. I like the way Sakurai has approached it, and I hope he comes back and still has a say in the matter.

 

[b2j135]

All I want for 4 is the return of the forgotten characters: Roy, Pichu, Dr.Mario, and last but not least Mewtwo.
But inside I know I can't hide my true desire...I really, REALLY just want some of the Assist Trophies to become playable characters:

Shadow: I can see most of his moves coming from Sonic Battle and his own game Shadow the Hedgehog

Moveset: neutral a = his three hit attacks from either SB or StH, chop, kick, kick or punch, punch, flip kick
up-tilt = his "up smash" from SB or his flip kick from StH
d-tilt = not to sure but maybe one of his shoes with turn on an burn the opponent in some way...just my idea
f-tilt = his second neutral kick from SB
up-smash = Chaos Nightmare, his chaos "smash" from SB: a multi-hit attack similar to zelda's
f=smash = Chaos Nightmare (up), his chaos "up smash" from SB, you know the one-handed one? also similar to zelda's f-smash
d-smash= a spinning break dance that uses the fire from his shoes to burn the opponents, I known it seems to "Sonicy" but that's all I could come up with

Air
neutral = his air melee from StH, a spinning kick
fair = his double handed smash he did to the head of a black arms in the intro of StH, similar to Dk's but faster. Meteor smash as well but not really as strong as dk's, strength similar to mario's fair
bair = no real ideas...need some help lawl
dair = his neutral air from SB, a flip mid-air to a diving spike, like ZSS
zair = none

B

Neutral = Chaos Spear, same from StH, but less spammy. chargeable
Up-b =Chaos Control, similar to Mewtwo's teleport, but half a second slower than his
Side-b = not sure, maybe Wandering Chaos?
Down-b = Chaos Burst, from SB


Dash attack = the same one from SB with or without the CC, I'd prefer with but it may become cheap like MKs DC

Final Smash = 1. Chaos Control from Brawl
2. becomes Super Shadow but instead of headbutting everything he touches he can freely fly around and attack with his standard moveset
3. similar to 2 but instead all he can to is CS and CB or CC once and then it finishes
3. becomes SS and prepares fora massive CB that pretty much takes up the whole level...middle size not huge like HT or NPC
4. just uses a very powerful CB with the effects of the one from StH and Chaos Burst (CB like attack from SB)


Issac: He could play pretty interestingly but I don't really have any true idea for a moveset, but maybe someone else could come up with something.

Grey Fox: same as Isaac

 

[Jimnymebob]

I don't think the next Smash should be made with a competitive nature being the main focus. Smash is meant to be a crazy, fun fighting game with a unique fighting system between Nintendo's mascots, not a competitive game. It's only some of the people who play the game that make it competitive, not everyone, so marketing it purely to those few isn't that much of a good idea.
Competitive Smash is like competitive Super Mario Bros. speedruns- the games weren't designed with a competitive mindset, it was the fans who made it.

I have heard a lot of people suggesting David Sirlin balance the game, which is highly unlikely/ unnecessary. If the game isn't well balanced, you should either deal with it, or just ignore the what would be presumed to be flawed competitive scene.

 

[RayOxide]

Misread title.

I want Onix from Pokemon in the games for some unknown reason. lol.

 

[Fatmanonice]

According to the Ice Climbers' page on the Melee website (in Japanese), Sakurai had five choices to represent the Famicom - Ice Climbers, Balloon Fighter, Bubbles, Urban Champion, and Excitebike - and he wanted to pick only one. Pit and Mach Rider were not mentioned at all. Sakurai chose Ice Climbers over the four other retro characters because he felt they had the most potential as viable fighters than the others.

Now, there are two retro characters in Melee and in Brawl so I think it is likely that there will be two new retro characters in SSB4. The second retro character will almost undoubtly be the WTF character. I really hope the two retro newcomers are Takamaru and Duck Hunt Dog. I am sure the dog will be very original and bizarre much like Mr. Game & Watch and R.O.B. were in Melee and Brawl.

I'm still not all that keen on the Duck Hunt Dog idea. I, however, would absolutely love to see a Duck Hunt stage.

@ smashchu:

I do somewhat remember him talking about the other third party character he wanted to add but, like always, was incredibly vague about it and breezed through the question quickly because, doubtless in my mind, he didn't want to be flooded with "why didn't Habba Jeeba Joe get in" questions. This was also the part of the GDC 08 conference where he talked about how the roster was pretty much decided in 3 days in May (or was it June?) 2005 and Sonic was added in the summer of 2007, no doubt spurred by the announcement of MASATO. It's hasn't been said which company approached which but I kind of think it was SEGA based on how Sakurai doesn't really seem to care for Sonic all that much and probably would have left him out to the horror of thousands of Sonic fans. I kind of theorize that's why Sonic's moveset is the way that it is too but, again, it's just a theory.

I wouldn't be surprized if that other person was Megaman as, aside from Geno, he was the only other third party character that was mentioned more than once and one of the two only character comments that Sakurai commented on. (The other was a Kindergartner asking for Toad on behalf of his class *supposedly they had a poll, how cute* but Sakurai makes fun of the kid for spelling Toad's name wrong. I think it's Kiniopio in Japanese but the kid spelled it like Pinnochio or something to that effect.) Sakurai didn't talk about Megaman directly but it was the post the spurred him to explain how there'd only be 1 or 2 more third party characters added, if he felt like it. But, then again, Inafune (the creator of Megaman and Capcom's current president) said that he absolutely loved the idea of Megaman getting into Smash but nobody ever contacted him about it. I still wonder if Inafune was lying just because, in the past and even now, it has show that he enjoys being secretive (there's supposedly still an amazing secret in Megaman 9 but, in a recent interview, he said he's not going to give anyone any clues).

@ pieman:

There's no doubt in my mind that Sakurai will be directing the next Smash Bros. Here's pretty much a time line of what the man has basically said regarding future Smash games.

Sakurai's Journal shortly after E3 06: Wants to pour his heart and soul into Brawl so that he can move on to other things. He mentions that he probably wouldn't even be involved in SSB4 and figured that Nintendo could reasonably find a replacement for him.

Nintendo's Fall Conference 2007: States that he wants to be involved in future games but not as director. Says that developing Brawl has been a great experience but a little tiresome too.

GDC 08: Mentions creating every characters' moveset and even all their movements. Again, mentions what a great experience it was and how much he enjoyed working with such a plethora of talent. Says that he definately wants to be around for future installments. He mentions that Smash Bros is kind of like his "child", in a sense, so he takes a lot of pride in the series and it just wouldn't feel right letting someone else take it over just yet.

Shortly after the last Dojo update in Spring 2008 in an interview: Says that Brawl essentially wasn't a proper swan song for him. He mentions that there are some things he'd want to change and that he already has some new ideas he'd love to add. He doesn't say it directly but he expresses his enthusiasm for being the director for future titles. He says that he wants to do another Smash game, just not in the near future, and that he thinks that it's important that the next game brings something new to the the table aside from new stages and characters.

Shortly after GDC 09: Sakurai announces that not only are SORA and Nintendo working on another project together (he emphasized that it wasn't Smash) but that SORA was now a second party to Nintendo. He estimated that the game would be released in 2011. (With this being said, a new Smash game probably won't be announced until at least 2012 with a release date of no earlier than 2014.)

So basically, he went from not even wanting to be a part of the next Smash Bros (and, in a way, not even wanting to make Brawl) and trying to move away from Nintendo to saying that he's already tossing around ideas in his head for a new Smash and letting his company become a second party to Nintendo.

 

[RayOxide]

If we get a new Director for a new Smash game, imo, it should be Isai, since he is king of SSB64 you'll obviously see combo, and skill, not to mention equal characters.

lol.

 

[Big-Cat]

NO WAY!!!!!!

If you want competitive, go play Street Fighter. I like the way Sakurai has approached it, and I hope he comes back and still has a say in the matter.

I don't want the game to go completely competitive. That killed the genre for a while to begin with. I just want there to be a balance between non-competitive and competitive aspects of gameplay. Compared to Melee, Brawl is pretty shallow in terms of gameplay, glitchy, and unbalanced, or so I've heard.

 

[DekuBoy]

I love Brawl, but the matches go on too long sometimes. I would like it a little bit faster. Oh and Fatmanonice, I have a UK magazine with an interview with Sakurai. He said that if Nintendo wanted him to do the next Smash, he would want to add a new dynamic to the gameplay.

 

[SmashChu]

I believe it was indeed 2005 and not a typo. If I could only find it, but Sakurai mentions that he made the roster after being contacted by Iwata.

The reason I think it's 2006 is two fold. First, why even have the poll in the first place? Second, how could he manage to get the most popular characters in if he was basically taking shots in the dark. Lucas and Lucario didn't have games in 2005 (I do Lucas wasn't shown until late 05 or early 06). There just seems to be an inconsistency if we assume it's 2005. I think some say 2006.

 

[Spydr Enzo]

I don't think the next Smash should be made with a competitive nature being the main focus. Smash is meant to be a crazy, fun fighting game with a unique fighting system between Nintendo's mascots, not a competitive game. It's only some of the people who play the game that make it competitive, not everyone, so marketing it purely to those few isn't that much of a good idea.
Competitive Smash is like competitive Super Mario Bros. speedruns- the games weren't designed with a competitive mindset, it was the fans who made it.

I have heard a lot of people suggesting David Sirlin balance the game, which is highly unlikely/ unnecessary. If the game isn't well balanced, you should either deal with it, or just ignore the what would be presumed to be flawed competitive scene.

I completely agree with this. Melee is considered the more competitive of the three games, but it was never really intended that way. Plus a lot of people complained about the quick, difficult gameplay so Sakurai offered to "moderate" the speed. Nintendo has always been about making a game as easy as possible (okay, maybe not as easy as possible...), and I don't see them changing their mind anytime soon.

Also, if you don't like the balance or the non-competitiveness, you need to deal with it anyway. I used to think Brawl was a pretty cool game until I came here (actually, Nsider first) and heard all these people complaining about "cheapness!" and "Snake is broken!" and **** like that.

Shortly after GDC 09: Sakurai announces that not only are SORA and Nintendo working on another project together (he emphasized that it wasn't Smash) but that SORA was now a second party to Nintendo. He estimated that the game would be released in 2011. (With this being said, a new Smash game probably won't be announced until at least 2012 with a release date of no earlier than 2014.)

So basically, he went from not even wanting to be a part of the next Smash Bros (and, in a way, not even wanting to make Brawl) and trying to move away from Nintendo to saying that he's already tossing around ideas in his head for a new Smash and letting his company become a second party to Nintendo.

I'm sure Sakurai won't abandon the sereis, he's done o much with it and it's his directing that got it it's fame and popularity. Nintendo would be smart enough to consult with Sakurai and at least offer him a spot in the development before handing it over to someone else. I'm glad you posted this, it gives me a lot of hope...

 

[Spydr Enzo]

****it, I'm on a double posting spree right now...

 

[BKupa666]

It's OK to have the speed of the Smash games be moderated, but when they actively try to make the game "not competitive", they make big mistakes. They need to realize that most casual players (including myself) loved their games when they had difficulty to them. When there were advanced tactics to learn and master. Casual players don't care, they'll play a competitive game their little casual friends and have a blast; Nintendo really doesn't understand this about the gaming market. They don't need to spend so much effort casualizing their games when the casual audience had no problem to begin with.

Also, the difference between how long Fatmanonice estimated character programming took (the first month?) and Brawl's entire development is insane. I remember reading the interview with Sakurai about how he had 'many more character ideas that he couldn't include'. In said interview, he talked about how instead of adding more features, he spent time distilling gameplay. That means casualizing the game rather than adding more characters. If we think about how about only 3/4 Brawl's disk space was used (mostly by the SSE) and the development time for the Brawl characters, Sakurai could've easily implemented 50+ characters and still had time for any extra features he felt necessary.

 

[Pieman0920]

I don't think distilling gameplay means casualizing it persay, but rather refining it. The introduction of more characters means testing them out, and trying to balance them to the best of their ability. While some may say they screwed up with that in the long run, its still what they were most likely doing during that time.

 

[Big-Cat]

The reason I think it's 2006 is two fold. First, why even have the poll in the first place? Second, how could he manage to get the most popular characters in if he was basically taking shots in the dark. Lucas and Lucario didn't have games in 2005 (I do Lucas wasn't shown until late 05 or early 06). There just seems to be an inconsistency if we assume it's 2005. I think some say 2006.

Him making the poll a year after the roster was decided is rather strange, and ever since I found out this a year ago, I've become skeptical with Sakurai. Not for his noncompetitive nature, but also because of the mismanaging of time.

As for choosing the more popular characters, it should be noted that all the characters in the game came from 2005 or were known by that time. Lucas had been known since MOTHER 3 was originally announced for the N64. Lucario debuted in Lucario and the Mystery of Mew which came out in Japan in the summer of 2005. Also, it's obvious that he chose most of the characters from the Melee poll. Otherwise, Krystal, Ridley, and K. Rool would have gotten in.

 

[n88]

@BKupa666
Yes, he could have added many more characters, but he wanted to go in a different direction. He wanted to add something new to the series insetead of cramming the roster full of characters, and I can't say I blame him.

 

[BKupa666]

He already added a plethora of new (even unnecessary to some) features, including a full adventure mode, Final Smashes, and a bunch of new gameplay mechanics, such as footstooling and crawling. if you think about the time he had, and what would've been possible if he used said time wisely, Sakurai could've added a bunch more characters and still 'distilled' the game (although you are right that cramming the roster would not be a wise choice; reasonable roster numbers are important). The fact that his team apparently perused Smashboards, found the advanced tactics discussion in Gimpyfish's E 4 All thread, and purposefully removed them all, is rather disheartening. That is what they did in between those demos and the game's release, when they could've included characters or features that fans would actually enjoy in the long run.

 

[Fatmanonice]

@Fatmanonice: One problem we are assuming that he made the roster in 2005. But, it is probably more logical to think it was in 2006, and that 05 was a mistype. If he already had all the characters decided by 2005, then why hold a poll? Lucario and Lucas's games hadn't released at that time. Yet, they were two characters who were requested a lot. In Melee, he showed that he added the most popular characters. We don't know the results of the poll. If he ended up picking some of the most popular characters, it would have been a fluke back in 2005 (again, Lucario and Lucas didn't have games yet). We don't know the poll results so we can only guess. Although, from what I've heard, 9 of the 10 characters from a poll on a Japanese fan site were added (Geno was the one left out). This came from GoNintendo BTW.

No, at GDC 08, he did say that he decided the roster (aside from Sonic) in three days following E3 05. Let me address the main questions you asked:

1. The poll kind of fooled everyone in a sense. There were three categories that you could submit to: characters, music, and encouragement to Sakurai and his staff. What we didn't know until GDC 08 was that people weren't voting for which characters would be playable, they were voting for which characters would appear in the game... as cameos. If you go through the list I posted earlier, nearly all the characters, aside from the third party characters of course, appear in the game in some form whether it be a trophy, assist trophy, sticker, or even bosses (like in the case of, well, all the Nintendo bosses in the SSE). Aside from third party characters, in a "oh you son of a *****" kind of way, Sakurai kept his promise. It was a case of misleading writing that blind sided us all and still has some people bitter about Brawl. Even now, Sakurai lives up to his title of "the world's biggest troll."

2. Mother 3 was originally planned for release in the year 2000 on the Nintendo 64. Something went wrong (no one will tell what happened), and Nintendo shut down the development and, as we all know, Mother 3 didn't come out until April 2006 in Japan. The game was virtually the same aside from being in 3D. The main characters were the same and Lucas was still the star. Sakurai said shortly after the release of Melee that he had intended for Lucas to replace Ness but, as I just explained, Mother 3 was initially canned so Sakurai dropped the idea.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pcd9VnnXSQ

3. Lucario and the Mystery of Mew was released in Japan on July 16th 2005, just a month after E3 05. The first press release showing Lucario was, if I remember right, January 2005. This would also explain why Lucario can talk in Brawl. To clear up other questions thtat other people might have, Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance was released in Japan on April 20 2005 while it wasn't released in North America until October 17th. This explains why Ike has the appearance that he does.

4. We don't have the offical poll results for Brawl but, we do have them for Melee and they have been posted several times. The Melee poll was kind of interesting. On the offical Smash Bros site, there was a small box that simply asked "who do you want to see in future Smash games." You just typed in a name, hit a button below it, and it would send it it. This poll was made available pretty early in the year 2000 despite some accounts saying that Melee's development didn't begin until early 2001. I kind of get the feeling that the Brawl poll results haven't been posted yet because, in one of his comments, Sakurai had to remind people that only video game characters that have appeared on Nintendo consoles could make it in. So what, you ask? This gives me the feeling that they were absolutely flooded with stupid suggestions for people like Naruto and Goku which is why I think the 290 entry journal was made, to take out the ideas that actually interested Sakurai and his staff and didn't make them want to cry (although, to this day, I still think he laughs about the guy who suggested Link's uncle, the blue virus from Dr. Mario, and Bow-Wow the chain Chomp from Link's Awakening.).

5. Of the 9 who were mentioned the most, all of them did appear in some form except Geno.

1. Geno (5 entries, brief mention of SMRPG in the chronicle)
2. King Dedede (5 entries, playable)
3. Ike (4 entires, playable)
4. Diddy Kong (4 entries, playable)
5. Ridley (4 entries, SSE boss)
6. "Cat eyed" Link/ Toon Link (3 entries, playable)
7. Krystal (3 entries, trophy, stickers, and speaking cameo)
8. Olimar and Pikmin (3 entries, playable)
9. Takamaru (3 entries, sticker and main theme)

If I remember correctly, didn't Sakurai at one point say that he didn't know he was going to be appointed to be director of Brawl until around the time of the first trailer or something? Or is that just another random thing thrown out on the internet that's just fake? If true though, then it should have been 2006 when he got the roster down. =/

(Even so, I still think that Toon Link, Jigs, and Wolf were all technically later than intended additions, though maybe not as late as Sonic)

You're about one year late with your story in terms of context. At E3 05, Iwata announced that a new Mario, Zelda, Metroid, and Smash were in the works and that at least two of them would be ready for release at the Nintendo "Revolution's" launch. Iwata then asked Sakurai into one of the conference suites following this announcement. It turned out that the Smash announcement was merely a bluff to please the audience and that a new Smash game hadn't even begun development. Iwata then told Sakurai that he was the only one for the job and, if he didn't except, that their plan was to just recreate Melee with online features. Sakurai admits that he caved into the pressure simply because he didn't like the idea of someone else messing with one of his games.

The story goes on that until about August 05, he was the only person on the Brawl development team and, after E3 05, the first thing he got done was deciding the roster in 3 days. To make the proposal more appealing to Sakurai, Iwata told him that Nintendo was already preparing a development team for him (which they were) and even building a building specifically for the project (which they were too) so Sakurai accepted. The building wasn't completed until sometime in October 2005 and the development team continued to take on new people until about Fall 2007, when supposedly the focus of development switched almost entirely to making Brawl's online less buggy (really? I'm afraid to ask to what it was like before but that was supposedly why the game was delayed for almost two months the first time). Anyways, Sakurai said that nearly all the characters were completely programmed by the end of January 2006 and that probably about 60% of the development time was spent making the Subspace Emissary and probably another 25% on the online features.

 

[Big-Cat]

The fact that his team apparently perused Smashboards, found the advanced tactics discussion in Gimpyfish's E 4 All thread, and purposefully removed them all, is rather disheartening. That is what they did in between those demos and the game's release, when they could've included characters or features that fans would actually enjoy in the long run.

Was this ever proven?