[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[Thrillhouse-vh.]

Wait a minute...

Pieman likes Naruto?

lol, sig worthy quote right there.

 

[Big-Cat]

Last thing to mention for Fatman: online isn't a very big deal for Wii games, particularly those with a strong emphasis on local multiplayer. On the other hand, it doesn't help that Brawl's online is pretty unstable, especially compared to something like Mario Kart.

Maybe not for Wii games, for now at least, but I doubt gamers are going to be satisfied with the lack of options if it repeats next genereation. Of course, I have XBOX Live so the difference for me between the two consoles is massive.

Kuma asked me for testimonies from a wide variety of people to prove that the average person prefers Brawl's physics to Melee. My options were:

A) Make a massive post of quotes from the internet, snippets from professional reviews, and opinions from random people in real life, then hope he reads them all and believes them,

or

B) Tell him to do it himself.

Considering he'd learn a lot more if it wasn't coming through me AND I already know what people think, there's absolutely no reason I should be doing his homework. If he wants to know how to make people happy, he can figure it out himself.

Since the burden of proof is on me, I decided to go with B. Currently, I'm just skimming Brawl player reviews at IGN and from what I've noticed, the reviews are mostly praising all the content in the game, and some reviews were mentioning gameplay with things like saying Brawl was Melee 2.0(both negatively and positively). Currently, it seems to me that people are oblivious to the gameplay changes, of course, a lot of these reviews were from within 3 months of the games release, but I made sure to find some from later on.

If that's what you wanna believe, go for it.

The things I advocate in this thread are apparently too foreign for you to comprehend. You don't know about the importance of "loving the low end." You don't know what a blue ocean is (though I haven't used the term specifically). You definitely don't seem to be listening to what Sakurai, Iwata, and Miyamoto have been saying about games in general for the last three years (or in Sakurai's case, since Kirby's Dream Land).

No one's asking you to understand this stuff, probably because most people here don't understand it themselves. But if explaining this stuff just sends you into a fit, then I'll save myself the trouble of responding to you.

Just because you have to "love the low end" doesn't mean that the other side of spectrum has to be ignored. Yes, the blue ocean end is the largest demographic, but like I said before, why not appeal to both? The game gets taken seriously and it's not hard like Ninja Gaiden hard to learn.

 

[BBQTV]

ignore this post

 

[darksamus77]

I might not be so critical of Snake's inclusion if it didn't match up with my theory. Although he is well known (unlike my theory) Snake is seriously overpowered (like my theory). His projectiles work well enough, but then on top of it, all his melee attacks deal like 15% damage (Samus hardly dishes out that much and she has a power suit!). I agree that his participation is humorous, even his first appearance was a shocker in a hysterical sense. It was so obnoxiously absurd that you just had to laugh.

Pit is also pretty strong and his moves are hard to predict, its hard to say if thats good or bad overall. I haven't quite played against competative Pit players, I just know that the casual players who use him can be rather annoying (don't get me started on the CPU's). Lol, couldn't they have made Pit's Toga just a shred bit longer?
("You can't defeat me!" ....uh, your junk is showin bro)


Its pretty funny some of the movesets that are given to these WTF characters, I would have thoroughly enjoyed participating in the development of such features.

I second the opinions/statements on both these characters.

 

[Adell]

i think snake is broken because of this

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MemeticBadass

 

[darksamus77]

Bunching these two quotes together since they're pretty relevant:




Shino you might wanna double check your numbers.

Anyway the Wii has so far outsold GameCube by roughly 2:1. Let's look at the difference between certain GameCube games and their respective sequels on the Wii:

Metroid Prime -------- 2.83m
Metroid Prime 2 ------ 1.29m
Metroid Prime 3 ------ 1.54m

Zelda: Wind Waker ---- 4.55m
Zelda: TP [GC] ------- 1.56m
Zelda: TP [Wii] ------ 5.36m
Both TP versions ----- 6.92m

Super Mario Sunshine - 6.28m
Super Mario Galaxy --- 8.20m

Smash Bros. Melee ---- 7.08m
Smash Bros. Brawl ---- 8.79m

None of these titles come close to the 2:1 ratio that the systems themselves have, despite them all being more accessible to new players. So even though the Wii is moving at record pace, the games themselves aren't necessarily keeping up. That's not to say that they can't, as we can see with Mario Party and (especially) Mario Kart:

Mario Party 7 -------- 1.53m
Mario Party 8 -------- 6.74m

Mario Kart DD -------- 6.96m
Mario Kart Wii ------ 18.24m

The first four series (Metroid, Zelda, 3D Mario, Smash) had all been hyped very well by Nintendo. The Mario Party games had almost no hype. The Mario Kart games had a decent amount of hype but not on the same level as the first four. Needless to say, hype doesn't affect lifetime sales (although it definitely affects the first few weeks, but we're not worried about that).

Keep in that the difference between Melee and Brawl is not nearly as large as it was between 64 and Melee. I don't know if most of you remember 64 that well but there really wasn't a whole lot of content in the game, at least in comparison to Melee.


Now the whole point of the original statement (somewhere in this thread) is basically to say that yes, Melee was an amazing game, but Brawl was decidedly better. Considering how well both games sold, the next game has a very high standard to reach.

Last thing to mention for Fatman: online isn't a very big deal for Wii games, particularly those with a strong emphasis on local multiplayer. On the other hand, it doesn't help that Brawl's online is pretty unstable, especially compared to something like Mario Kart.





There's a pretty big difference between "a very reputable magazine said a gaming icon is in Smash" versus "a couple of people on the internet are trying to hack a semi-obscure character into Smash." Especially with all the other characters people are trying to hack into the game.

We've been discussing Geno for a while though and I know how much he means to you, so I won't badger you about it anymore (that and we're kinda going in circles). I will say that I admire how much hope you have for him in light of his rather crummy situation.


----------------------------------------




Kuma asked me for testimonies from a wide variety of people to prove that the average person prefers Brawl's physics to Melee. My options were:

A) Make a massive post of quotes from the internet, snippets from professional reviews, and opinions from random people in real life, then hope he reads them all and believes them,

or

B) Tell him to do it himself.

Considering he'd learn a lot more if it wasn't coming through me AND I already know what people think, there's absolutely no reason I should be doing his homework. If he wants to know how to make people happy, he can figure it out himself.




Your examples are stories about how you and all your friends are patient enough to deal with complex controls, usually followed with something about how if people can't handle it, they shouldn't be playing (as if less people playing games is a good thing).

My examples are a combination of recurring complaints from discussions on the subject, first-hand experience with people who DON'T have the patience for that kind of stuff, and well, common sense (if there's two methods to doing the same task, people always prefer the easier one).

Have you asked people if they preferred Street Fighter's button combinations over Smash's to use special moves? Have you looked around to hear people's responses to that little walljumping section in Super Metroid? Don't even respond to this paragraph, just go out and do those two things. You don't even have to leave SmashBoards or even this thread for those two specifically.




If that's what you wanna believe, go for it.

The things I advocate in this thread are apparently too foreign for you to comprehend. You don't know about the importance of "loving the low end." You don't know what a blue ocean is (though I haven't used the term specifically). You definitely don't seem to be listening to what Sakurai, Iwata, and Miyamoto have been saying about games in general for the last three years (or in Sakurai's case, since Kirby's Dream Land).

No one's asking you to understand this stuff, probably because most people here don't understand it themselves. But if explaining this stuff just sends you into a fit, then I'll save myself the trouble of responding to you.




Oh you.










Wait a minute...

Pieman likes Naruto?

These numbers are very helpful. I had no idea Prime sales more than DOUBLED Echoes sales. It's just eye-popping. I mean, MarioKart Wii nearly tripled Double Dash's sales?! Also, we can't forget that the Wii has only been out for 2+ years now, and I believe the Gamecube's been around a biiit longer than that.

 

[BBQTV]

i think snake is broken because of this

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MemeticBadass

he's not broken but he is a assshole to deal with at torneys

 

[Fatmanonice]

@ Toise:

This may sound odd but you have no idea how much that means to me. I've been supporting Geno for Smash since about 2003 and my online "campaign" for him in Smash began in August 2005. I even went to Kyoto, Japan to try to drop off what was basically a 26 page portfolio (both in English and Japanese) of ideas for Geno made by me and 9 other people from various sites in June 2006 at Nintendo's HQ. Needless to say, I'm not going to stop my support until he's either in Smash or he comes back one last time in playable form in a Mario RPG. (In all honesty, my ultimate goal is actually a true sequel to SMRPG.) I'm almost the same way for Mallow but, after all these years, I've come to realise that the chance of them both getting in as playable is extremelly low and that it would be smarter to not only bank on my favorite of the two but the one that much more people support.

Add in:

Oh and, just a side note, it should be kept in mind that Brawl has been out for about a year and a half while Melee has been out for almost 8 now. Granted, sales usually come to crawl after the first month but popular games (New Super Mario Bros is probably the best example of this) usually do get decent boosts around the holidays even if they are a few years old.

 

[ScoobyCafe]

Now, assume the default speed of SSB4 was around the same as it is in Brawl. Assume there was also a speed switch that lets you modify speed by percentage (as low as 20% and as high as 500%). While we're at it, do the same with gravity or even hitstun. Throw in the option to save the default settings of the game on top of that.

Just wanted to pitch in and say I fully endorse this idea, since I'm all for choices for all and sundry. I also find it rather comical that you of all people suggested it. Kinda wish there were more of this going on in here, that is ideas that provides options for all.

@Fatmanonice

Gotta say that you're want for Geno to come back, be it in Smash Bros. or a new game, is inspiring. I obviously feel the same, but your dedication apparently dwarfs my own as far as Geno is concerned (Takamaru, however). Kudos to you, I'm confident that Geno will return in a Mario game sometime in the future. =)

 

[n88]

Also, Pac-Man is the only candidate to represent Namco. None of the Soul Calibur characters are mascots of Namco, they are just more popular. Pac-Man is Namco's mascot. He is what Mario is to Nintendo and what Sonic is to Sega. Also, just because Pac-Man haven't had a good game since his original game doesn't mean he is undeserving. Sonic haven't had a good game since his games went 3D anyway but he is still a video game icon. Also, Pac-Man has something in common with Sonic and R.O.B. - he starred in a couple of Mario spin-off games as a playable character. Yeah, he was in Mario Kart Arcade GP 1 and 2. He is also Miyamoto's favorite character. Pac-Man makes a whole lot more sense than some random character from Soul Calibur games to represent Namco.

This logic frightens me. Namco saying "We don't care who you like! We like Pac-Man! We're giving you ****ing Pac-Man!" is not a good thing. I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but please remember that this is not the Video Game Hall of Fame. Nor is it the Nintendo Congress. It is a fighting game, for people to pick their favorite character and beat the crap out of their friends' favorite characters.
If people want to beat up Pikachu with Nightmare, and Namco gives them something different, that is a bad decision on Namco's part.
Also, I might add that I would not list Snake as the most logical character to represent Konami.

 

[Pieman0920]

If I speed switch were to be implemented into the next Smash, I wonder if that would cause a split in the Smash community, one prefering one speed to another. I must also wonder what would happen with online matches, since the speed of the game is a pretty big thing there. Would there just be one set speed for all matches? Would the person who creates the room set the speed for everyone? If its the latter one, I can only hope that there is some more advanced communication system in the next Smash, or some type of way to warn people before joining a group in regards to the speed of the game.

Actually are there any actual fighters that have a system like that?

 

[n88]

There's also the possibility that the default speed would just be used for "With Anyone", and it would be customizable when playing with Friends.

 

[SmashChu]

*reads Smashchu's and KumaOso's arguement*

Smashchu seems to be baseing his arguements on the amount of difficulty HE has in doing things. From the looks of it, he's pretty much expanding his own experience to be a lot more common than it really it is. It's essentially making a mountain out of a molehill and exaggerating the difficulty of what seems like simple things.

Yet sales numbers reflect my point. My goal is too find out why SF has declined so much despite being a phenomenon. My answer was difficulty. A lot of what Kuma has been mentioning prove it. Basically, if I HAVE to use training mode to be viable enough to compete, then you have a problem. I doubt I'm the only one having this problem, but I'm also the only one bringing it up.

*reads some more*

Sports aren't hard? I'd love to see you hit a 90 mile per fastball, get full body tackeled by someone who weighs 350 and feel like playing the next game, hit a 7-10 split, make a 20 foot putt to make a birdie, calculate the exact angle needed to get a bank shot, etc. It's miseribly ironic that you're complaining about relatively basic mechanics in most fighting games and yet saying that sports are easy in comparison. Honest to God... I think I might need to lay on the floor for a few hours to recover from such a statement... Wow, just wow... You talk as if sports don't take any effort or practice to be good at and yet trying to figure out a few button configurations on a game controller seem to make you want to have a seizure. There's so much irony in this whole statement that I think it's literally suffocating me...

This is why you don't jump into an argument last second. You 100% wrong.

Sports have very simple mechanics. What you are talking about is totally different. Simple to do does not mean there is no gap of skill. Anything that is easy can still have competition. But what is so hard about soccer or baseball. It's relatively simple. Doesn't mean that there can't be a gap of skill.

@Kuma: Your problem if you see the forest, not the trees. None of my statements were ubserd, but you think they are because you can't see the big picture, and I doubt anything I say will change that.

EXs are the big thing, and the reason I make a big deal about them is EXs came around right when SF declined. The thing is, most players don't see the need. The fire ball is strong, but does it need to be. Does EXs really need to be there, when it adds so little to the game but adds something more for people to worry about. Was SF2 ever inferior because it lacked EXs? Did SF2 HD Remix HAVE to have EX moves because it was a staple of the series?

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

**** Toise. I don't think I will ever catch you on anything. Anyway, I think I'm willing to accept what games are becoming, and will begrudginly deal with this influx of newed players.

 

[Thrillhouse-vh.]

If I speed switch were to be implemented into the next Smash, I wonder if that would cause a split in the Smash community, one prefering one speed to another. I must also wonder what would happen with online matches, since the speed of the game is a pretty big thing there. Would there just be one set speed for all matches? Would the person who creates the room set the speed for everyone? If its the latter one, I can only hope that there is some more advanced communication system in the next Smash, or some type of way to warn people before joining a group in regards to the speed of the game.

Actually are there any actual fighters that have a system like that?

Some of Capcom's Vs. series games have options to chose from "Turbo" mode and a slower mode. KoF also had something like that, forget which one. '98 maybe? Some people only play Turbo or Regular, but I can go for both. If a speed customization came into the next Smash I would just play at whatever the person I was playing with wanted to play at.

 

[Big-Cat]

Yet sales numbers reflect my point. My goal is too find out why SF has declined so much despite being a phenomenon. My answer was difficulty. A lot of what Kuma has been mentioning prove it. Basically, if I HAVE to use training mode to be viable enough to compete, then you have a problem. I doubt I'm the only one having this problem, but I'm also the only one bringing it up.

Look, it's your problem if you're too lazy to take the time to practice. As mentioned before, despite their simplicity, sports require time and dedication to be really good. Fighting games, and everything else in life is like this as well.

@Kuma: Your problem if you see the forest, not the trees. None of my statements were ubserd, but you think they are because you can't see the big picture, and I doubt anything I say will change that.

EXs are the big thing, and the reason I make a big deal about them is EXs came around right when SF declined. The thing is, most players don't see the need. The fire ball is strong, but does it need to be. Does EXs really need to be there, when it adds so little to the game but adds something more for people to worry about. Was SF2 ever inferior because it lacked EXs? Did SF2 HD Remix HAVE to have EX moves because it was a staple of the series?

Criminy.
You make it sound like no one uses EXs except for competitive play. Go watch some videos online and you'll see people do use these and even casuals see the need.

All in all, the difficulty of all this is totally subjective.

 

[Thrillhouse-vh.]

Because none of those arguments were ever used against Smash. Ever.

 

[Mazaloth]

@Kuma: Your problem if you see the forest, not the trees. None of my statements were ubserd, but you think they are because you can't see the big picture, and I doubt anything I say will change that.

EXs are the big thing, and the reason I make a big deal about them is EXs came around right when SF declined. The thing is, most players don't see the need. The fire ball is strong, but does it need to be. Does EXs really need to be there, when it adds so little to the game but adds something more for people to worry about. Was SF2 ever inferior because it lacked EXs? Did SF2 HD Remix HAVE to have EX moves because it was a staple of the series?[/quote]

You are wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfuadayLhLA

And this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_cDs8oNNeg

I'll rub it in more:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlVZDrGXxGY&feature=related

Ex is a important part of SF. They allow more options and damage. This also includes FADC's and EX cancels. Anything that has to do with the EX bar.
Do you even know what you are talking about?

And why are we discussing SF in Smashboards?

 

[SmashChu]

@Kuma: Your problem if you see the forest, not the trees. None of my statements were ubserd, but you think they are because you can't see the big picture, and I doubt anything I say will change that.

EXs are the big thing, and the reason I make a big deal about them is EXs came around right when SF declined. The thing is, most players don't see the need. The fire ball is strong, but does it need to be. Does EXs really need to be there, when it adds so little to the game but adds something more for people to worry about. Was SF2 ever inferior because it lacked EXs? Did SF2 HD Remix HAVE to have EX moves because it was a staple of the series?

You are wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfuadayLhLA

And this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_cDs8oNNeg

I'll rub it in more:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlVZDrGXxGY&feature=related

Ex is a important part of SF. They allow more options and damage. This also includes FADC's and EX cancels. Anything that has to do with the EX bar.
Do you even know what you are talking about?

And why are we discussing SF in Smashboards?[/QUOTE]
Except all of those are competitive players. Nice job failing

Also, to rub it in your face more, learn to quote.

 

[Thrillhouse-vh.]

And why are we discussing SF in Smashboards?

"Street Fighter is pretty cool.
NO IT'S NOT! I have the sales to prove that Smash > All other fighting games ever.
lol Sales
lol tourney***
lol casual***
Internet
SERIOUS BUSINESS"

you know, the usual.

 

[SmashChu]

Look, it's your problem if you're too lazy to take the time to practice. As mentioned before, despite their simplicity, sports require time and dedication to be really good. Fighting games, and everything else in life is like this as well.

Was not the whole point of last last few pages or so saying how people do not want to play practice mode. Yes, all thing take time to become good, but I, nor does anyone else, want to sit in practice mode rather then have fun. People bought a game to have fun, not practice at it until the game becomes fun down the line.

Also, sine all of the best selling multiplayer games are not heavy on the tutorial or practice mode, I would come to believe people don't want to waste their time in these modes. I've said this a thousand times, yet you STILL don't get it.

Criminy.
You make it sound like no one uses EXs except for competitive play. Go watch some videos online and you'll see people do use these and even casuals see the need.

Which will all be competitive matches.

You are also STILL missing the point. Instead, let's use some basic logic.

• Street Fighter 2 sold a lot of copies, but none of the other ones did. Thus, this leads us to believe that something happened to make the series unsuccessful
• A thread on Shoruken was made asking why SF went downhill. Many said it was the perys in SF4. Thus, difficulty is the most likely explanation.
• But, sales changed from SF2 and SF Alpha, so Alpha was likely the problem
• Alpha introduced EX moves. This was the game's big addition
• It could not be the content of the games as SF4 was no where near SF2's success, despite a higher population and globalization at the time.

All in all, the difficulty of all this is totally subjective.

It's obviously not as people stopped playing Street Fighter because of it.

 

[flyinfilipino]

Wait, so now having an optional practice mode is a bad thing?

 

[SmashChu]

Wait, so now having an optional practice mode is a bad thing?

No. You're coming in late, so you missed the context. It's when I have to go to the training mode to enjoy the game. Kuma continues on saying I'm lazy and I should practice, but I just want to play the dang game, and other people feel this way too (sales numbers prove it). Basically, we shouldn't have to go to the training mode to enjoy the game. That should flow naturally. Smash does that. Street Fighter does not.

This all goes back to one point: Smash needs to progress on it's own merit, not that of other fighting games. Kuma has been using tunnel vision saying that Smash should follow suit with other fighting games. I say that Smash is successful because it is not like those games and should focus on accessibility and more content. That is where this all stems from.

 

[flyinfilipino]

I see. Personally, I think Smash's biggest selling point is its all-star cast, with accessibility and all this other stuff you two are arguing about coming in at a distant second.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

@ Toise:

This may sound odd but you have no idea how much that means to me. I've been supporting Geno for Smash since about 2003 and my online "campaign" for him in Smash began in August 2005. I even went to Kyoto, Japan to try to drop off what was basically a 26 page portfolio (both in English and Japanese) of ideas for Geno made by me and 9 other people from various sites in June 2006 at Nintendo's HQ. Needless to say, I'm not going to stop my support until he's either in Smash or he comes back one last time in playable form in a Mario RPG. (In all honesty, my ultimate goal is actually a true sequel to SMRPG.) I'm almost the same way for Mallow but, after all these years, I've come to realise that the chance of them both getting in as playable is extremelly low and that it would be smarter to not only bank on my favorite of the two but the one that much more people support.

My twin brother scribbled this two years ago. I remember showing him the Geno thread now and then and he'd be like "holy crap, I didn't realize people still know who he is." Needless to say, I wouldn't mind being wrong about his chances.

Just wanted to pitch in and say I fully endorse this idea, since I'm all for choices for all and sundry. I also find it rather comical that you of all people suggested it. Kinda wish there were more of this going on in here, that is ideas that provides options for all.

If you think about it, it's not much different than the item switch, changing the damage ratio, or customizing controls (something every game needs, by the way). The more flexible the rules of a game are, the more it can appeal to everyone and the longer it tends to last. No reason not to have it. It'd be like taking a shower without a temperature knob.

Of course, the thing about those switches is that they're capable of slowing down the game too. That's part of the reason I suggested it.

If I speed switch were to be implemented into the next Smash, I wonder if that would cause a split in the Smash community, one prefering one speed to another. I must also wonder what would happen with online matches, since the speed of the game is a pretty big thing there. Would there just be one set speed for all matches? Would the person who creates the room set the speed for everyone? If its the latter one, I can only hope that there is some more advanced communication system in the next Smash, or some type of way to warn people before joining a group in regards to the speed of the game.

I'd imagine the competitive community would decide on a standard like they did with items, or possibly multiple preferred settings. Though frankly I don't care what they end up doing.

As for online matches, n88 got it right: you'd be able to adjust it With Friends, but With Anyone would use the default setting. Exact same as the damage ratio.

The setup behind the online itself in the next game is another discussion though.

**** Toise. I don't think I will ever catch you on anything. Anyway, I think I'm willing to accept what games are becoming, and will begrudginly deal with this influx of newed players.

If it makes you feel better, more new players now means more skilled players eventually. And there's nothing wrong with gaming in general being more popular, now is there?

I see. Personally, I think Smash's biggest selling point is its all-star cast, with accessibility and all this other stuff you two are arguing about coming in at a distant second.

Considering Smash sells better than most of these character's games, I'd say the gameplay itself certainly matters quite a bit. Keep in mind your average Wii owner doesn't even know who Samus or Kirby are, let alone characters like Marth or Pit.

That said, if Mario Kart Wii can more than double Brawl's sales, then that means there's plenty of room for improvement.

Look, it's your problem if you're too lazy to take the time to practice. As mentioned before, despite their simplicity, sports require time and dedication to be really good. Fighting games, and everything else in life is like this as well.

Building off of Chu's sports analogy:

We have the MLB, but my neighbor's three-year-old can still play tee ball.

We have the Tour de France, but they still make training wheels and tricycles.

We have the NBA, but you don't have to shoot hoops at 10 feet.

It's not about "being good." It's about being able to play the game at all. If certain parts of the game get in the way of that, you make it an option to get rid of them. If someone can't hit a moving ball, you have them hit a stationary ball. If someone's having trouble balancing on two wheels, you give them four wheels. Why should video games be any different?


------------------------------------------------


This next bit is more or less about making the game more accessible rather than a direct response or criticism to anyone here.


I've been playing NSMBWii multiplayer nonstop since I got it yesterday. One of the things you can do is press the A button to force yourself into a little bubble, the same one you end up in when you die. There's no penalty, you can do it whenever you want and stay in however long you want, and you're completely invincible (even when someone pops your bubble, you have a few seconds of invincibility to everything except lava and holes).

Is this a bad thing? No, quite the opposite. It's amazing. If I'm playing the game with a friend who couldn't time a certain jump for crap, he can just hop into a bubble while I deal with it myself. If something's too hard, he can skip it. If he decides he can handle it himself, he won't press the button. At no point in the game are you required to use it (though it's great for pee breaks).


Now, I don't need to use this magic button because I've been playing Mario since childhood and I've had 99 lives for a while in this game. Similarly, I don't need to have a baseball held in place because my hand-eye coordination is good enough to hit a moving target. I also don't use training wheels on my bicycle because I know how to balance myself on just the two. But that doesn't mean everyone else is as capable as I am.

Should my friend not be allowed to play the game because he's not playing it "regular?" Just because he doesn't have the time or patience to play as well as I do?

What about my neighbor's three-year-old playing tee ball? He's not learning to hit a moving ball, and that's a key aspect of normal baseball. Should I be telling him to man up?


Sakurai has always said "there's no wrong way to play Smash." But there are limits on HOW you can play based on what's programed into the game. The Wii has opened up gaming to a new audience of the inexperienced, yet they haven't quite taken to Smash through Brawl. This means that the game still isn't as accessible as it should be. The options for beginners need to be expanded. Chu's auto-recovery idea is probably the single best concept to that end.

Some of you are hearing this and thinking it means dumbing the entire game down or removing options. Now gameplay-wise, this may be a little true. It means less stuff like L-canceling or tricky ATs like wavedashing as opposed to simpler stuff like footstooling or (forced) tripping.

But merely adding settings for a simpler game doesn't affect your experience if you don't want it to. The bar for entry may be lowered, but the peak is still the same. Bonus points if some of these options (like the speed switch) are capable of expanding things in both directions.



All this talk about gameplay and accessibility (especially the Street Fighter stuff) is making me miss character discussion.

Didn't one of you ask me about why certain characters get in over others or something?

 

[Big-Cat]

I see. Personally, I think Smash's biggest selling point is its all-star cast, with accessibility and all this other stuff you two are arguing about coming in at a distant second.

That's what I believe as well. When I saw the SSB commercials when I was a kid, I didn't think of the gameplay. I just liked the idea of my favorite characters all being in one game.

Toise may not think so, but I think he's forgetting that Smash appeals to everyone within the Nintendo fanbase. I'm a fan of Metroid, but I don't have much interest in Fire Emblem. Chances are that other people are in a similar boat.

Building off of Chu's sports analogy:

We have the MLB, but my neighbor's three-year-old can still play tee ball.

We have the Tour de France, but they still make training wheels and tricycles.

We have the NBA, but you don't have to shoot hoops at 10 feet.

It's not about "being good." It's about being able to play the game at all. If certain parts of the game get in the way of that, you make it an option to get rid of them. If someone can't hit a moving ball, you have them hit a stationary ball. If someone's having trouble balancing on two wheels, you give them four wheels. Why should video games be any different?

I think you're missing the context of that post. Chu was saying the he didn't like that he had to train to be viably competitive. I'm just saying that if you want to go competitive, you have to practice. Otherwise, just do what you want.

Sakurai has always said "there's no wrong way to play Smash." But there are limits on HOW you can play based on what's programed into the game. The Wii has opened up gaming to a new audience of the inexperienced, yet they haven't quite taken to Smash through Brawl. This means that the game still isn't as accessible as it should be. The options for beginners need to be expanded. Chu's auto-recovery idea is probably the single best concept to that end.

You're looking at this the wrong way. Maybe they haven't quite taken to Smash because they're not interested in the game. That's like me saying I don't want to play Halo because it's not accessible enough for me. Surely, it's not because I have no interest in playing the game.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

@ Toise:
Geno stuff

Wow, that's something there. I feel the same way similar with getting a Square rep and Claus, but even then that's still amazing dedication. Keep it up.

Ever try contacting Square yet?

All this talk about gameplay and accessibility (especially the Street Fighter stuff) is making me miss character discussion.

Didn't one of you ask me about why certain characters get in over others or something?

Hmm...Character Discussion...I don't really know. Music Discussion already is really held in the new Music/Stage Group. I do have a huge prediction thing I'd be interested to post up if enough people are interested. Maybe a list of all possible newcomers with the way you did to my roster (Very Likely, Possible, Not Very Likely, Not Happening) - I may keep a list of newcomers around so when Smash 4 comes out, I can track a list of what was the result of all.

And that was NeverInfiniteX.

 

[MasterWarlord]

And here I thought the thread would’ve died a horrible bloody death by now.

Spoiler

What do you mean you don’t know who I am?!?

Regardless of me disagreeing with Toise a good bit, definitely gotta give him props for making the thread habitable again with his very much sound logic.

I mainly just question why all of this competitiveness Vs. casualness is being discussed seeing it’s all so very hypothetical. The next game will more likely then not stay at Brawl’s level. Even if Miyamoto takes over from Sakurai, he hasn’t proven himself to be much more sane then Sakurai recently, what with him wanting moms to try Punch Out and thinking Super Mario Galaxy had too much story.

But I guess I’ll play along for a moment. Strictly from a business perspective, we’re already all buying the game for the character roster, pretty much. Very few of us would still be here if this was some original series. We wouldn’t of gone out of our way to force the game to be competitive via mass banning. Regardless of some people hating Brawl, they still bought it in the first place, no? Mission accomplished. Thus, Sakurai is trying to bring in more gamers by appealing to the casuals.

Now then. What do I think –SHOULD- happen? Seeing Kuma is outright suggesting techs. . .Bleh. Why not. I think things should stay pretty much exactly as they are now, just balanced and obligatory things like planking/tripping removed. Melee’s insanely fast speed offered very little differentiation in character playstyles in comparison to SSB64 and Brawl. It’s also highly strategic to press L every time you land with no benefit whatsoever to not doing it, yes?

 

[Big-Cat]

Now then. What do I think –SHOULD- happen? Seeing Kuma is outright suggesting techs. . .Bleh. Why not. I think things should stay pretty much exactly as they are now, just balanced and obligatory things like planking/tripping removed. Melee’s insanely fast speed offered very little differentiation in character playstyles in comparison to SSB64 and Brawl. It’s also highly strategic to press L every time you land with no benefit whatsoever to not doing it, yes?

Could you clarify by what you mean by techs? The literal teching has always been in Smash. As for L canceling, I found this unnecessary. Just remove the landing lag or something.

 

[darksamus77]

Wow, that's something there. I feel the same way similar with getting a Square rep and Claus, but even then that's still amazing dedication. Keep it up.

Ever try contacting Square yet?


Hmm...Character Discussion...I don't really know. Music Discussion already is really held in the new Music/Stage Group. I do have a huge prediction thing I'd be interested to post up if enough people are interested. Maybe a list of all possible newcomers with the way you did to my roster (Very Likely, Possible, Not Very Likely, Not Happening) - I may keep a list of newcomers around so when Smash 4 comes out, I can track a list of what was the result of all.

And that was NeverInfiniteX.

That'd be interesting...I suggest you carry out this plan, for those of us who, say...haven't been following every possible character

 

[MasterWarlord]

Could you clarify by what you mean by techs? The literal teching has always been in Smash. As for L canceling, I found this unnecessary. Just remove the landing lag or something.

I mean "advanced" techs. What I was more specifically referring to relating to you was your suggestions such as Neo Wavedashing or whatever.

 

[Big-Cat]

I mean "advanced" techs. What I was more specifically referring to relating to you was your suggestions such as Neo Wavedashing or whatever.

I'm not sure if NWD would be considered an AT. I think it's more on the levels of perfect shielding. After all, aren't most ATs usually physics exploits?

 

[Fatmanonice]

Wow, that's something there. I feel the same way similar with getting a Square rep and Claus, but even then that's still amazing dedication. Keep it up.

Ever try contacting Square yet?

I did once with a letter back in 2004 and never got a response. The trip to Japan was planned in 2005 but the portfolio didn't come about until about two weeks before I left. Basically, I was already going to Japn to bum around the country for about two weeks and go to all the major cities when it hit me that this was a once in a lifetime oppurtunity to do something big especially with the Brawl poll closing the day I left. I went to Nintendo's HQ in Kyoto but I got turned away by a security guard (despite spending nearly three hours trying to find the place with a small group of people) so I was forced to mail it at the the post office next to the Prince Hotel in downtown Tokyo. When I talked with the people who made the portfolio, we decided to contact Nintendo because Kyoto was the city I was going to spend the most time in.

Currently, I'm pretty poor and am trying to graduate from college so I can't really do anything this big for awhile now which is one of the reasons why I'm trying to make sure that support doesn't die down too much which is one of the big reasons why I came here in 2006. Also, where is Square Enix's HQ anyways? I remember SEGA's being in Osaka but I didn't have time to visit it and I think Namco-Bandai is in Tokyo but, let's face it, that city is freakin' huge and I had to rely on buses and walking for most of my trip.

 

[BBQTV]

shibuya, tokyo japan

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

@Toise
New players does equal more advanced players, but I (Personally) feel that a greater number of advanced players isn't nessicarily a good thing when the competetive value is overall lower.

The other thing by makign a "simpler" game is the adverse and rather frustrating things people invent to make it more competetive. With the general physics of Smash (regardless of fast/slow) there are a wolrd of AT's that result from reaching metagame. In Brawl the "general Techs wre removed (Wavedash, L cancel, etc.) the one's any character could to and could eb applied to all of the characters. Instead, most players will find a list of AT's that apply only to their character. This makes the competetive scene harder to get in to, and makes the schism bigger.

A paraphrase of the guide to competetive Link player: "If you want to play Link well, you have to be good at anticipating your foe's movements, and memorizing A LOT of AT's"

I just thought it'd be intresting to note that by attempting to make the game simpler and more accessible for everyone to lessen the schism between competetives and cauals, it's actually being made wider.

@Toise...again
The only thing i dislike about the auto-recovery, is that people won't see it a learning tool, like training wheels or a Tee, they see it as the way the game is to be played. While it's not inheritantly bad to play different ways (I don't mind casual outlook) but when the game is altered to the point where it's intent is lost, I have to say no.

People wouldn't bother learning to recover on their own, they would just leave auto-recovery on forever, and never learn how to play like the game is intended to be played. (The other reason I don't like this is because eventually more and more things will be given auto-___ features)_

 

[Thirdkoopa]

I did once with a letter back in 2004 and never got a response. The trip to Japan was planned in 2005 but the portfolio didn't come about until about two weeks before I left. Basically, I was already going to Japn to bum around the country for about two weeks and go to all the major cities when it hit me that this was a once in a lifetime oppurtunity to do something big especially with the Brawl poll closing the day I left. I went to Nintendo's HQ in Kyoto but I got turned away by a security guard (despite spending nearly three hours trying to find the place with a small group of people) so I was forced to mail it at the the post office next to the Prince Hotel in downtown Tokyo. When I talked with the people who made the portfolio, we decided to contact Nintendo because Kyoto was the city I was going to spend the most time in.

Currently, I'm pretty poor and am trying to graduate from college so I can't really do anything this big for awhile now which is one of the reasons why I'm trying to make sure that support doesn't die down too much which is one of the big reasons why I came here in 2006. Also, where is Square Enix's HQ anyways? I remember SEGA's being in Osaka but I didn't have time to visit it and I think Namco-Bandai is in Tokyo but, let's face it, that city is freakin' huge and I had to rely on buses and walking for most of my trip.

Well; My dad may fly in on a buisness trip to japan, so I may be able to send something on Square Enix in smash in general. Still need to do a few things I was planning on for that anyways. If I can get Black Mage or Chocobo (With slime plz.) in, I'd be extremely happy. If I can get that and Geno, I think I'd faint. (OST Amazingness went up by...A lot)

If I get any news of any trip to japan in the future however, I'll be sure to notify you.

So, any other discussions?

 

[Fatmanonice]

Well; My dad may fly in on a buisness trip to japan, so I may be able to send something on Square Enix in smash in general. Still need to do a few things I was planning on for that anyways. If I can get Black Mage or Chocobo (With slime plz.) in, I'd be extremely happy. If I can get that and Geno, I think I'd faint. (OST Amazingness went up by...A lot)

If I get any news of any trip to japan in the future however, I'll be sure to notify you.

So, any other discussions?

Hmm... I guess I'll have to start thinking of this possibility then but I'll definately have to do more than I did last time. Just keep me updated on when your father is going and any ideas if you have any.

 

[Pieman0920]

Not to seem like a downer or anything, but one foregner coming in and saying that the company should pursue a course of action that loads of other fans have probably asked them to do is sort of pointless in my eyes. I mean SE must already know that the possibility exists, though as of now since there is no next game in development its even more pointless than usual.

 

[Big-Cat]

Not to seem like a downer or anything, but one foregner coming in and saying that the company should pursue a course of action that loads of other fans have probably asked them to do is sort of pointless in my eyes. I mean SE must already know that the possibility exists, though as of now since there is no next game in development its even more pointless than usual.

Well, it can make a difference when someone goes all the way to Japan to make such a request. It shows that the fan (in this case Fatman) has dedication.

 

[Pieman0920]

Well, it can make a difference when someone goes all the way to Japan to make such a request. It shows that the fan (in this case Fatman) has dedication.

A pessimist can view it as obsession. :embarrass