[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[BBQTV]

I think they'd make a pretty decent final smash :O

this could work just fine justaway

@ kuma if sakurai doesn't want to do ridely he would not do that

 

[n88]

@Pieman

I think he meant that one Koopaling hops out on the stage w/BJ at a time, each tied to a different move.

 

[BBQTV]

@Pieman

I think he meant that one Koopaling hops out on the stage w/BJ at a time, each tied to a different move.

which pieman?

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Anyways, on Bowser Jr, he really was pretty much the main villain of NSMB, given that you fight him throughout the game, and then fight him and his father at the same time as the final boss. In NSMBWii his role is reduced quite a bit due to the Koopalings taking up a lot of his old role, but he still gets about three fights if I recall correctly, and is the one you are chasing throughout the game. While Bowser is indeed the last boss in this game, calling him the main villain would be like ignoring Nergal in FE7, and saying that the dragon at the end was the real villain. And his role was only second to Bowser in Galaxy as well, since he showed up multiple times.

Sensible, but I don't think you can say in galaxy he did much just for showing up two more times than the average boss; The role in that one was really all bowser.

In any case, while you could try to quantify his apperances in the major games as a smaller number, you have have to realize that he has yet to fail to show up in the main series since his creation. Thus while he doesn't have the history of the other playable Mario characters, he's quickly making up for it.

Suppose wording it that way does make it sensible, but I'm still trying to get at why him or Toad are "Needed" In any sense. I mean, It's not really misrepresentation either way. Not that they would be bad additions, but seeing how brawl still managed to leave that void and not much has happened to either of them (...Yet) The possibility still remains out there, since It really does have all It's "Core" Characters.

they were complaining about how there are two playable Toads

We have a winner here.

Thirdkoopa, the Mario Big Eight are the eight major recurring Marioverse characters who have been playable in both main games and spin-off games. They have had the most game appearances out of all the Marioverse characters. Oh, and when I mention "Marioverse characters", I meant the characters from Mario series, Donkey Kong series, Yoshi series, and Wario series.

But really, I'm just trying to get at an official wording. Could've sworn I've heard it before. Like is it a fan-used term or one made by nintendo or what?

Let's look at Toad's trophies in Melee and Brawl.

THE TROPHY MOBILE

DUH-NUH-NUH-NUH TROPHY!

Edit: Oh, look at this... SMB2 is mentioned in both Melee and Brawl. It is as if it is a big deal for Toad in Sakurai's eyes despite being a 20-year-old game. Both trophies even describe Toad's abilities as if Sakurai is coming up with ideas for how Toad might be like in Smash. I think NSMBWii will be a bigger deal for Toad in Sakurai's eyes because it would give Sakurai a reason to add Toad to the roster. It is a recent game after all!

1)Just because the game was mentioned doesn't mean It's important - Tons of games are on trophies.
2)It seems more like he's describing the character.
3)One game out of the red sea of mario titles after being abandoned from having a role for how long?

I hear a lot of people talk about Bowser Jr, but they should add the Koppalings into Smash instead. They have so much personality in NSMB Wii that it's not even funny. Anyone else want to see them too?

Nope; The Koopalings have no priority over each other while Jr stands out the most. AT Or Mini-Boss or so? Yeah, sure.

LONG DEBATE ABOUT CONTROLS

Private Messages are a nice place for debates too.

So his speed = C. Falcon and his strength = Ice Climbers?

TOADCON...PAWNCH.

 

[n88]

which pieman?

The original

@thoidkoopa

Pretty sure that "Big Eight" is a fan term.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

I was referring to the skill schism, because Chu always says that making the game more competetive overall, with things like the general AT's, will create a schism between the two "classes" when they have to play against each other. As long as smash exists in the form it does, the personal AT's come into play, but are inhertiantly harder to learn than a general AT. If online stays in place with Smash (As I imagine it would) the two different classes will come into contact online, it happens already with Brawl. People who are competetive will use the crazy techniques they have over the less experienced players and destory them, while general AT's (the one's from melee) didn't give as much of an advantage outside of L-canceling.

I should mention a few things:

1. I define an AT as anything that goes beyond basic controls (movement, attacking, shielding, etc.). So powershielding, teching, footstooling, those are all ATs in my book.

2. I don't support ATs that are too powerful or too difficult to learn like DACUS or wavedashing.

3. I support individual character ATs, assuming things like tethers or super armor count as such.

Now if an AT is too powerful/tricky, it doesn't matter if it's a personal AT or a general AT. It's still too much and it needs to go regardless. That's the most important part.

As for the auto-recovery thing, your ealier anaolgies have on eminor flaw: All of those examples are crutches that people use to try to get better. Trainign wheels are what you use as you try to get to two wheels, your little neighbor will someday want to hit a moving baseball, and so on. The fear I have is people won't look at as a stepping stone, they'll view it as the plataeu.

While this is not immediatly bad, as you have stated easier smah will bring in more players, which will want more future installments to follow suit and cause the series to slowly dwindle overall until it is mindnumbingly easy, then the industry will follow suit, and all of video games will be destoyed.

...Haha, ok it won't be that bad, but it would cause a slow decay in the smash series and related nintendo franchises. There is a certain bar of simplicity that a game should never fall below, in this case it is the auto-recovery.

Even the possible reprucussions you listed would just make the player think the game is hard, I doubt it would occur to them that if they turned it off, it would be any easier.

****, long post

Well that's a very slippery slope kind of fear you have, but it's still just a fear. Kind of a silly one in my book, though it's understandable.

Anyway, Nintendo is already on this path to simplicity and accessibility. NSMBWii has to be the most prominent example now with the Super Guide and those little safety bubbles. If those things bother you now, you probably won't like what's in stock for the future.


On that note, I really hope I'm not the only one getting something of a Mario overload right now. Between playing the game with my friends and then having it come up here, it's like I can only get away from the guy when I'm working or asleep.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

@Toise
The Advanced Personal AT's are the one's I was referring to, As long as smash remains the way it is (the unqie fighting game it is) there will be these impossibly hard AT's. So your aware, the wavedash and DACUS are around mid difficulty compared to the majority of personal advanced AT's, the simpler the game, the more advanced players will rely on these techniques and destroy the weaker players. Brawl's Advanced AT's are worse than Melee's general advanced AT's, so obviously makign the game simpler is not solving all of the problems the series faces (This is more aimed at Chu if he ever notices).

I'm curious as to why my fear is silly, if I find easy games unappealing, and I know others who feel the same, and you are outright telling me that Ninty is going to be following the pattern, then why should I not fear for my game-playing?

 

[Arcadenik]

Pieman, just a FYI, Peach's floating ability and vegetables are a byproduct of her replacing Lina in Doki Doki Panic.

Toad is also known for his speed. In almost all of his spin-off appearances, especially Mario Kart games, he's usually one of the fastest characters. Toad even got the Golden Mushroom as his special item in Mario Kart: Double Dash!! Sakurai even talks about Toad's agility from Super Mario Kart in his Melee trophy and Toad's Brawl trophy even includes Super Mario Bros. 2 and Mario Kart: Double Dash!! as his appearances. I agree with you that Toad should be faster than the rest of the Mario Big Eight, at least.

 

[Big-Cat]

I should mention a few things:

1. I define an AT as anything that goes beyond basic controls (movement, attacking, shielding, etc.). So powershielding, teching, footstooling, those are all ATs in my book.

2. I don't support ATs that are too powerful or too difficult to learn like DACUS or wavedashing.

3. I support individual character ATs, assuming things like tethers or super armor count as such.

Now if an AT is too powerful/tricky, it doesn't matter if it's a personal AT or a general AT. It's still too much and it needs to go regardless. That's the most important part.

IMO, you have a very broad definition of AT. The ones you mentioned in #1 are really more of "intermediate" techniques than anything else.

Also, you're considering something like a tether to be an advanced technique. Now, certain uses can be considered advanced, but to say something like a tether is an AT is like saying side stepping is an AT.

Well that's a very slippery slope kind of fear you have, but it's still just a fear. Kind of a silly one in my book, though it's understandable.

Anyway, Nintendo is already on this path to simplicity and accessibility. NSMBWii has to be the most prominent example now with the Super Guide and those little safety bubbles. If those things bother you now, you probably won't like what's in stock for the future.

I doubt Nintendo is going to go into the direction where, at the very least, will be simple to the point it's an insult to anyone's intelligence. As Shino said, you have to find that line between simple and too simple.

If there was to be a SG-esque feature like auto-recovery in SSB4, I think they would be going overboard with it. It's like putting the difficulty of a level and doing UpB into the same boat.

this could work just fine justaway

@ kuma if sakurai doesn't want to do ridely he would not do that

Actually, Sakurai and co. didn't even try doing Ridley, IIRC. The thing with characters like Ridley and Sukapon is that, chances are, their animations would be unlike any character ever put in Smash. In Sukapon's case, I assume it would be fairly difficult to set up the animations for him without it glitching up. Ridley would mostly be hunched character, from the sound of things, it could prove to be difficult working with a character who would move unlike any other character.

 

[BBQTV]

well from what he said it sounds like

he tried but failed

or said lol cool story bro

 

[UberMario]

Is there anything notable anyone suggested that I missed in the past three months?

I've not been quite as active as of lately, so I'm just wondering.

 

[BBQTV]

well only everything

 

[Big-Cat]

Is there anything notable anyone suggested that I missed in the past three months?

I've not been quite as active as of lately, so I'm just wondering.

It's fairly cyclic in this thread so I really can't say.

 

[BBQTV]

mainly anything tosie of choice says

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

@Toise
The Advanced Personal AT's are the one's I was referring to, As long as smash remains the way it is (the unqie fighting game it is) there will be these impossibly hard AT's. So your aware, the wavedash and DACUS are around mid difficulty compared to the majority of personal advanced AT's, the simpler the game, the more advanced players will rely on these techniques and destroy the weaker players. Brawl's Advanced AT's are worse than Melee's general advanced AT's, so obviously makign the game simpler is not solving all of the problems the series faces (This is more aimed at Chu if he ever notices).

You're gonna have to fill me in on some of these super hard ones you're talking about, I usually don't leave the Smash Workshop. From the sounds of it though, these shouldn't be there in the first place.

Now if these super crazy ATs you're talking about are inevitable as dust on fancy furniture, then meh, that's that. The mere existence of these things are the main reason we'd have a wider gap in skill, not the simplification of the game itself. If there are people with the drive to win by any means, then they will discover and use those means.

Can't get rid of the drive to win, so get rid of the ridiculous means. If you can't get rid of the means, then try to downplay them or focus on something else.

I'm curious as to why my fear is silly, if I find easy games unappealing, and I know others who feel the same, and you are outright telling me that Ninty is going to be following the pattern, then why should I not fear for my game-playing?

Are you bothered by stuff like motion controls and the mere option for super easy mode? If you are, then yeah, you've got a good reason to worry. If you're not, then you're scared over nothing (which is why I'm calling it silly).

If there are any games that bother you that way (including future games), lemme know.

 

[n88]

@UberMario

Well, if you missed it, there was http://n882004.webs.com/ (My poll)

EDIT: Why did nobody tell me there was a typo on the front page?

 

[Pieman0920]

Pieman, just a FYI, Peach's floating ability and vegetables are a byproduct of her replacing Lina in Doki Doki Panic.

Toad is also known for his speed. In almost all of his spin-off appearances, especially Mario Kart games, he's usually one of the fastest characters. Toad even got the Golden Mushroom as his special item in Mario Kart: Double Dash!! Sakurai even talks about Toad's agility from Super Mario Kart in his Melee trophy and Toad's Brawl trophy even includes Super Mario Bros. 2 and Mario Kart: Double Dash!! as his appearances. I agree with you that Toad should be faster than the rest of the Mario Big Eight, at least.

I'll grant you the bit on Peach's moveset there, since that is true. To that end I suppose Toad could have stats that reflect those he had in SMB2, though I would rather him not have the turnip pull.

In any case though, I still disagree with the Toad being known for speed thing. The character is most well known for being Peach's subject, and to the end of a body guard, somewhat incompetent. In the Mario Kart series, he's generally a light character which means he accelerates fast, but his top speed is slow. The Golden Mushroom could easily have just been because its a mushroom, and Toad's well....a mushroom man. And I said Mario series characters rather than Big 8 (which isn't a term I like keep in mind) I actually think that his speed would probably be best at around a tie with Yoshi.

 

[n88]

Just a quick though on Toad: What would his moveset be like? I've seen a few ideas thrown around for specials in the thread, but I'm having trouble recalling what they were. Also, what would he have for standard attacks? The only physical attack I can really see him performing is a headbutt, which can in no way be stretched across a whole moveset.

 

[Pieman0920]

There's one Toad moveset that gets posted when this thing comes up, though I don't like it that much since it relies on items/moves other characters have. In the end though, its kind of the only thing Toad can really have, since the guy really isn't that combat oriented. In any case, Up B would be the propeller suit from NSMBW I would think, and I guess technically he could have a variation of Peach's counter, since according to Melee/Brawl he has defensive spores when hit.

 

[Big-Cat]

Are you bothered by stuff like motion controls and the mere option for super easy mode? If you are, then yeah, you've got a good reason to worry. If you're not, then you're scared over nothing (which is why I'm calling it silly).

If there are any games that bother you that way (including future games), lemme know.

There's nothing wrong if there's a difficulty option. What's worrying is if there isn't an option and the game is too easy.

 

[SmashChu]

@SmashChu

I'd rather that Bowser Jr. got in, possibly with references to the other Koopalings in his moveset. He's the only Koopaling that really stands out from the rest.

Bowser Jr was just "I'm a tiny Bowser." He was really cliche for that kind of character ("I'm mischievous lol"). The Koppaling all have their own unique personalities. Ludwig was really one of those arrogant, smart villians. Lemmy is insane. Wendy is very snooty. Roy has a cool, tough guy. Iggy was hyper. They all had something to them, and it shows in New Super Mario Bros Wii. Nintendo has done a better job with Bowser Jr, but he just pails in comparison to the Koppalings.

And to show I'm not alone

While i played the game, my kids got introduced to koopa kids, which they instantly loved. They already know who Bowser jr. (actually they even think Baby Bowser is Bowser jr.) is, but this was instant win for koopa kids (we all know Bowser jr. is the suckiest Nintendo villain ever created and my kids may agree).
.....................................
I bold a few lines there for our friend, that unfortunate Nintendo employee who is assigned to look at this site, can read more easily.

http://seanmalstrom.wordpress.com/2009/11/15/email-a-nonhostile-email-about-smw/
Oh, and a lot of members on VGchartz (the site I post sales data from) have the Koppalings as their avatar.

I think New Super Mario Bros Wii will introduce them to new players.

Thanks SmashChu. I have to wait til FRIDAY for the game.

Also Arcadenik's trophy detective work is pure win.

Bummer. But the game is amazing. Make sure you get some friends together and tyr to take the day off of School/Work. You wont regret it.

 

[Reb]

Bowser Jr was just "I'm a tiny Bowser." He was really cliche for that kind of character ("I'm mischievous lol"). The Koppaling all have their own unique personalities. Ludwig was really one of those arrogant, smart villians. Lemmy is insane. Wendy is very snooty. Roy has a cool, tough guy. Iggy was hyper. They all had something to them, and it shows in New Super Mario Bros Wii. Nintendo has done a better job with Bowser Jr, but he just pails in comparison to the Koppalings.

Maybe they have "more personality", but they're far less iconic. This alone is a big thing, but going back to the personality thing, I really think you kind of disproved your own point here. You describe Bowser Jr. as being mischievous, and say the Koopalings all have their own unique personalities. Like...Iggy? "Hyper"? How is that any deeper or more unique than mischievous? Both traits could just as easily be assigned to kid-type characters, so I don't see how Bowser Jr. is any worse off in terms of personality.

Yeah, the Koopalings are cool, but they're really pieces of a whole, and that whole is still less infamous than Bowser Jr. I'm not just being the devil's advocate--I actually like Bowser Jr. =] Might have been Sunshine that got me to liking him. He has a lot of cool options for moves, too.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Nintendo has attempted to resuscitate the Koopalings over the years since Yoshi's Safari/Hotel Mario. Superstar Saga essentially revived them, they were intended to be bosses in Super Princess Peach, and Ludwig is featured as a sticker in Brawl. And now they are featured in their first 2D game in nearly 20 years.

But regardless, Bowser Jr. has been given more spotlight than the Koopalings ever got in the short time he's been on - he was a major character in Sunshine and Galazy, he's basically the big boss in New Super Mario Bros., he's been in multiple spin-offs, and is simply more identifiable nowadays, as the successor to the Koopa throne. He just has more going for him.

You describe Bowser Jr. as being mischievous, and say the Koopalings all have their own unique personalities. Like...Iggy? "Hyper"? How is that any deeper or more unique than mischievous? Both traits could just as easily be assigned to kid-type characters, so I don't see how Bowser Jr. is any worse off in terms of personality.

I think it may be because the Koopalings have a particularly definable trait to each them - easy to do when there are 7 of them. Iggy is shown with swirls for eyes, something that is commonly attributed to those who overexert themselves, aka, hyper. It also helps that Iggy's role in Superstar Saga was spinning incredibly fast and using spinning attacks and the like,, which could be interpreted to be a hyper nature of his.

Artwork of the other Koopalings and their roles in SMB3 and SS also help. Wendy is portrayed as the snooty one thanks to her posture and facial expression, Roy plays the tough, cool guy with his sunglasses, Ludwig is portrayed as insane thanks to his unkempt hair, etc.

But Bowser Jr. debuted when the Koopalings faded into obscurity and Bowser needed an accomplice in the 3D games. What better way than to make a son for him? But because he was to be portrayed as the son of Bowser, a position greatly shown in his role in Sunshine, he had to be particularly identical to Bowser, with some kid-like attributes added on to him. Which helps shape him into the mischievous kid he is./\

 

[NeverFiniteX]

I've been gone a while, but just glancing at the arguments, not much has changed. Toise is 'superior' to everyone, Chu struggles to make a case, hmm... stuff about SF, some pac man, toad...wtf?

Toad's FS- C'mon mushrooms, grow dammit!

 

[SmashChu]

Maybe they have "more personality", but they're far less iconic.

I have a feeling that most of you who like Bowser Jr. are young (no more then 16, maybe 18 at best). If you all were, then you all would remember that they were big players in Super Mario Bros. 3 and Super Mario World, as well as appearing in numerous spin off comics and anime. There is a reason they came back. They were major villains and everyone liked them. Bowser Jr as always had hostility towards him as people see him as annoying. With the Koopalings coming back, people are starting to call him a Koppaling rather then a unique character.

Another reason I think you guys are young. None of you called me out on being wrong. Iggy is crazy, while Lemmy was the hyperactive crazy one.

But regardless, Bowser Jr. has been given more spotlight than the Koopalings ever got in the short time he's been on - he was a major character in Sunshine and Galazy, he's basically the big boss in New Super Mario Bros., he's been in multiple spin-offs, and is simply more identifiable nowadays, as the successor to the Koopa throne. He just has more going for him.

But no likes Bowser Jr. that much, so it doesn't matter. He's almost automatically out.

Seeing as his appearing was less groundbreaking then the Koppalings coming back, it's safe to say no one really cares about him. Also, remember I'm not saying one has to be in, but I am saying that Bowser Jr. will probably not get in.

 

[Big-Cat]

Just a quick though on Toad: What would his moveset be like? I've seen a few ideas thrown around for specials in the thread, but I'm having trouble recalling what they were. Also, what would he have for standard attacks? The only physical attack I can really see him performing is a headbutt, which can in no way be stretched across a whole moveset.

Here's what I recall:

B: Poison Mushroom
Tosses out a Poison Mushroom, who touches it gets shrinked.

Side B: Turbo Mushroom
Basically does a dash with max damage at point black range.

Down B: Giant Vegetable
Like Peach's Turnips

Up B: Copter Toad
Basically what you've got in NSMB Wii.

Personally, it needs to be refined majorly.

For standard attacks, that's a tricky one.

Consideirng his size, he'd work best as a fairly speedy rush down, close range, glass cannon.

 

[Arcadenik]

Kuma, I have a new possible moveset for Toad.

B: Iceball (from New Super Mario Bros. Wii)

Toad throws Iceballs like Mario's Fireballs but they freeze opponents like Lucas's PK Freeze. The iceballs bounce slightly higher and faster than Mario's fireballs.

Side B: Golden Toad (from Mario Kart: Double Dash!!)

This move displays Toad's agility. Toad uses the Golden Mushroom and glows yellow. He starts running around very fast, leaving behind golden afterimages, and runs over the opponents. You press the B button again to stop running.

Up B: Propeller Spin (from New Super Mario Bros. Wii)

Toad puts on the helmet of the Propeller Suit and starts floating around. He can float multiple times like R.O.B.'s Robo Burner with up+B and fall slowly when he is landing. He can also fall faster when you press down+B to drill down through the air. This extra move was also from NSMBWii.

Down B: Mini Mushroom (from Super Mario Kart)

Toad pulls out mushrooms out of nowhere and throws them around like Link does with his Bombs. The mushrooms shrink the opponents upon contact. They are different from the Poison Mushroom item as they don't move across the stage when they land. He can have two mushrooms lying around on the stage at a time. Pull out a third mushroom and the first mushroom disappears.

Final Smash: POW Block (from Super Mario Advance)

Toad displays his superhuman strength by pulling out a giant POW Block from the ground and throws it down. The block bounces around a few times and causes a shockwave with each bounce. One shockwave traps all opponents underground like the Pitfall item. Next shockware knocks all the trapped opponents off the stage. The shockwaves also breaks all containers like barrels and crates and destroys all breakable elements in a stage such as the blocks in Mushroomy Kingdom and the platforms in Skyworld.

About Toad's regular moves, well, he got no legs but feet so he could perform kicks like Kirby's kick-based moves. Toad got a big mushroom hat so that could be used to perform headbutts like Yoshi's headbutt-based moves. Toad could do those punches Luigi does when he runs, I think that move fits Toad's personality, too.

 

[Pieman0920]

The Koopalings didn't really have a personality in the original games. Perhaps you made up your own ideas for what they were like, or perhaps you imported the personalities created for them in the TV show, but in the games they were just boss koopas with magic wands.

And as for Bowser Jr's apperance in NSMBWii not being as "groundbreaking" as the Koopalings...well of course. Bowser Jr has become a main character showing up in every main Mario game since his creation, while the Koopalings are shown once in a blue moon. No one thinks is really that special if Bowser shows up again, but that doesn't mean the Koopalings are now more important than him.

 

[Big-Cat]

It's time for an El Oso Fuerte post dissection!

B: Iceball (from New Super Mario Bros. Wii)

Toad throws Iceballs like Mario's Fireballs but they freeze opponents like Lucas's PK Freeze. The iceballs bounce slightly higher and faster than Mario's fireballs.

Good suggestion, but the freeze property is incredibly broken, IMO. You're giving Toad an ability that easy disables mobility for the opponent. To make things worse, it's a spammable projectile. Other than that, it's a solid attack.

Side B: Golden Toad (from Mario Kart: Double Dash!!)

This move displays Toad's agility. Toad uses the Golden Mushroom and glows yellow. He starts running around very fast, leaving behind golden afterimages, and runs over the opponents. You press the B button again to stop running.

I've always liked this move. I would add in that he should be able to dash in the other direction with the opposite Side B. It would make for great mind games. With that in mind, you've got an overpowered move. Remember that point blank range thing I suggested a while back? That should be the only time the move inflicts damage and only when you activate the move so back dashes won't have the attack. Otherwise, I can just juggle my opponent back and forth.

The point blank also makes sense at least to me in terms of physics since force = mass X acceleration and the acceleration is at the beginning. Afterwards, there's 0 acceleration - a constant speed.

Sorry, having a nerd moment here.

Up B: Propeller Spin (from New Super Mario Bros. Wii)
Toad puts on the helmet of the Propeller Suit and starts floating around. He can float multiple times like R.O.B.'s Robo Burner with up+B and fall slowly when he is landing. He can also fall faster when you press down+B to drill down through the air. This extra move was also from NSMBWii.

I've got no problems with this move. When I get NSMBWii, I may make some suggestions.

Down B: Mini Mushroom (from Super Mario Kart)

Toad pulls out mushrooms out of nowhere and throws them around like Link does with his Bombs. The mushrooms shrink the opponents upon contact. They are different from the Poison Mushroom item as they don't move across the stage when they land. He can have two mushrooms lying around on the stage at a time. Pull out a third mushroom and the first mushroom disappears.

Like I said when I first saw this move, I saw this as overpowered. Toad is already a heavy hitter so the poison mushrooms would be going overboard. I still think the best approach is a Waddle Dee like toss attack that inflicts damage followed by gradual after damage with only one mushroom being used at a time.

Final Smash: POW Block (from Super Mario Advance)

Toad displays his superhuman strength by pulling out a giant POW Block from the ground and throws it down. The block bounces around a few times and causes a shockwave with each bounce. One shockwave traps all opponents underground like the Pitfall item. Next shockware knocks all the trapped opponents off the stage. The shockwaves also breaks all containers like barrels and crates and destroys all breakable elements in a stage such as the blocks in Mushroomy Kingdom and the platforms in Skyworld.

I would just leave at it where the opponents are in a pitfall state. That way, Toad can get in and quickly pummel the opponent and possibly finish him/her off.

About Toad's regular moves, well, he got no legs but feet so he could perform kicks like Kirby's kick-based moves. Toad got a big mushroom hat so that could be used to perform headbutts like Yoshi's headbutt-based moves. Toad could do those punches Luigi does when he runs, I think that move fits Toad's personality, too.

Sounds about right to me. He's definitely not the type for poke attacks.

 

[NeverFiniteX]

Chu

Listen to you man, next you'll be advocating the antagonists after you play Assasin's Creed II!

I have a feeling that most of you who like Bowser Jr. are young (no more then 16, maybe 18 at best).

Yeah, should that make me more or less informed?

Bowser Jr as always had hostility towards him as people see him as annoying. With the Koopalings coming back, people are starting to call him a Koppaling rather then a unique character.

Koppaling =/= Koopaling...JK,JK. But uh, what's your source?

Loosly quoting Toise, game designers make games the way they want to. Jr.'s inclusion has been pushed since he took a main role in a mario game, so someone thought that he was important, regardless of his popularity. Its funny that you should mention age, because those who aren't able to distinguish Jr. from the Koopalings are probably 11 or younger, so your statement about people recognizing Jr. as a Koopaling may be correct in that sense. But like I said earlier, the fact that they have been pushing Jr's role means that the designers want him to be iconic.

Another reason I think you guys are young. None of you called me out on being wrong. Iggy is crazy, while Lemmy was the hyperactive crazy one.

You do realize that you leave moderate to long posts, there might be something else on our minds as we are reading it or perhaps we may not have noticed. But even then, if you are right, then there's nothing to prove you wrong on, perhaps some people don't care enough to follow the link. Its nice that you attempted at providing sources in that regard.

But no likes Bowser Jr. that much, so it doesn't matter. He's almost automatically out.

I'm seeing a contradiction here, but since you may not, its safe to say that you don't like Jr that much.

Seeing as his appearing was less groundbreaking then the Koppalings coming back, it's safe to say no one really cares about him

Less groundbreaking? By your logic, it should be ground breaking if Bowser wasn't the main antagonist of SMSun and regained that role in Galaxy. Video games that introduce nostalgic events like these don't really respect time, they happen and they are nice, but then its over and people want something else (its been less than 2 years and people already want SSB4). How many of you screamed for joy when you discovered that these characters were present in NSMB? The less offensive version of what I'm trying to say is that 'groundbreaking' may not be the greatest phrase to describe the return of the Koopalings. Its nice that they were included, but they are nothing to slober over (IMO). I think Jr's a BA and I haven't even played Sunshine fully, so no its not safe to say "no one really cares about him"


I highly doubt that all of the Koopalings are going to be playable characters. The worst that might happen is that neither are included in SSB4 or that the Koopalings will be story mode bosses and Jr will be made into an AT.

 

[Arcadenik]

Ahh, thank you for the feedback, Kuma.

Iceball - well, I suppose you could call it broken. I came up with a way to fix that. How about if the more Toad throws iceballs at an opponent, the more likely the opponent will get frozen? You know, like the higher % is, the more likely the opponent will be frozen?

Golden Toad - I like this move, too. I am sure you have played a Mario Kart game so you should be familar with the Golden Mushroom item. In those games, each press of the item button would make the kart move faster.... so how do we translate that move in Smash? I was thinking that if we take your "dash in the other direction with the opposite Side B" idea, we can have Toad running all over the place. I am thinking that the point blank-range thing could inflict the most damage while simply running over the opponents from a distance inflicts less damage (akin to Yoshi's Egg Roll).

Propeller Spin - Good to know this move have no problems.

Mini Mushroom - Well, the reason I thought the shrink effect (with no damage inflicted) would be a good way to turn the tables around against the bigger, stronger, and faster opponents. I didn't want to give this move extra damaging power because it would seem overpowered. All right, only one mushroom can be used at a time.

POW Block - Ah, Final Smashes are supposed to be overpowered and it is how POW Blocks work in SMB2 and NSMBWii. Besides if Toad is weak, wouldn't his smash attacks still not be powerful enough to knock the trapped opponents off the stage? I mean, I don't really want this move to be another Peach Blossom where all the opponents are incapacitated and Toad have to run to the opponent to finish them off. The opponents might get free before Toad has a chance to approach them. That's why I think the POW Block should finish the opponents off. The best analogy for this move would be a giant version of Metagross.

 

[ScoobyCafe]

Am I the only one who thinks Toad would somewhat play like Pichu if he was a playable character? The whole speed/power/being light thing kinda left that impression on me.

Anyway, two things I want to change in your moveset, Arcadenik.

Ahh, thank you for the feedback, Kuma.

Iceball - well, I suppose you could call it broken. I came up with a way to fix that. How about if the more Toad throws iceballs at an opponent, the more likely the opponent will get frozen? You know, like the higher % is, the more likely the opponent will be frozen?

An easier solution, make Toad throw vegetables for his neutral special. Unlike Peach, it won't just be turnips, but ripened and unripened vegetables with different properties.

Mini Mushroom - Well, the reason I thought the shrink effect (with no damage inflicted) would be a good way to turn the tables around against the bigger, stronger, and faster opponents. I didn't want to give this move extra damaging power because it would seem overpowered. All right, only one mushroom can be used at a time.

Still not good enough. Being able to shrink your opponent willy-nilly is essentially broken. I'd rather give him the spores he emits in Peach's special; his spores could either make opponents sleep, paralyze opponents briefly (a la Mewtwo or ZSS), or have a Lip's Stick effect on opponents, i.e. the spores continually racks damage.

So yeah, with all this moveset talk, I kinda want to see one for Bowser Jr.

EDIT:

That, and I seriously want to see a reasonable moveset for Samurai Goroh. Still haven't found anything for him that seems suitable, surprisingly.

 

[Big-Cat]

Iceball - well, I suppose you could call it broken. I came up with a way to fix that. How about if the more Toad throws iceballs at an opponent, the more likely the opponent will get frozen? You know, like the higher % is, the more likely the opponent will be frozen?

That's a lot better and it differentiates itself from the current fireballs.

Golden Toad - I like this move, too. I am sure you have played a Mario Kart game so you should be familar with the Golden Mushroom item. In those games, each press of the item button would make the kart move faster.... so how do we translate that move in Smash? I was thinking that if we take your "dash in the other direction with the opposite Side B" idea, we can have Toad running all over the place. I am thinking that the point blank-range thing could inflict the most damage while simply running over the opponents from a distance inflicts less damage (akin to Yoshi's Egg Roll).

I'm not sure if it's possible to translate it into Smash. With the current dash idea, you could say that it already has been translated into Smash. I'm still concerned about the weaker damage idea. What if Toad had a slide move he could do of his dash with perhaps a tripping property?

Mini Mushroom - Well, the reason I thought the shrink effect (with no damage inflicted) would be a good way to turn the tables around against the bigger, stronger, and faster opponents. I didn't want to give this move extra damaging power because it would seem overpowered. All right, only one mushroom can be used at a time.

Makes sense, but there's the smaller, lighter characters as well. One thing I suppose you can do is that the effect only lasts until that character is hit. But, like Scooby said, the ability to shrink the opponent with that many opportunities is dangerous.

POW Block - Ah, Final Smashes are supposed to be overpowered and it is how POW Blocks work in SMB2 and NSMBWii. Besides if Toad is weak, wouldn't his smash attacks still not be powerful enough to knock the trapped opponents off the stage? I mean, I don't really want this move to be another Peach Blossom where all the opponents are incapacitated and Toad have to run to the opponent to finish them off. The opponents might get free before Toad has a chance to approach them. That's why I think the POW Block should finish the opponents off. The best analogy for this move would be a giant version of Metagross.

Final Smashes are supposed to be overpowered? Some are like Sonic's and the space anthros', but I wouldn't say all of them are overpowered. Most of them are easily avoidable.

Anyway, I was saying those thing under the condition that something like a super meter is implemented and where I see the Final Smash as something part of the moveset instead of an item.

So yeah, with all this moveset talk, I kinda want to see one for Bowser Jr.

Same here, especially with that Koopaling suggestion I made earlier.

 

[DekuBoy]

I think the Koopalings should be an Assist Trophy similar to the ExiteBike one.

NSMBWii out tomorrow! (in Europe)

 

[Thirdkoopa]

I think they'd make a pretty decent final smash :O

This is actually an awesome idea for Bowser or Bowser Jr.

@thoidkoopa

Pretty sure that "Big Eight" is a fan term.

And I really doubt Sakurai even notices that term.

Honestly, I'm still 50/50 until I see something far bigger going for one of them.

On that note, I really hope I'm not the only one getting something of a Mario overload right now. Between playing the game with my friends and then having it come up here, it's like I can only get away from the guy when I'm working or asleep.

Sorry; Blame it on me.

Is there anything notable anyone suggested that I missed in the past three months?

I've not been quite as active as of lately, so I'm just wondering.

Um...
...Yeah; You missed a lot.

This thread in a nutshell currently: Toise and FMOI Are "Superior" To everyone, Chu and Kuma goes on Wall of Texts, TK Fires up the debate cannon, Arc fires up the moveset cannon, and Pieman is just...Pieman.

Fixed*

I have a feeling that most of you who like Bowser Jr. are young (no more then 16, maybe 18 at best). If you all were, then you all would remember that they were big players in Super Mario Bros. 3 and Super Mario World, as well as appearing in numerous spin off comics and anime. There is a reason they came back. They were major villains and everyone liked them. Bowser Jr as always had hostility towards him as people see him as annoying. With the Koopalings coming back, people are starting to call him a Koppaling rather then a unique character.

Another reason I think you guys are young. None of you called me out on being wrong. Iggy is crazy, while Lemmy was the hyperactive crazy one.
But no likes Bowser Jr. that much, so it doesn't matter. He's almost automatically out.

Seeing as his appearing was less groundbreaking then the Koppalings coming back, it's safe to say no one really cares about him. Also, remember I'm not saying one has to be in, but I am saying that Bowser Jr. will probably not get in.

The thing is first off, If you pick a koopaling, which one do you pick? None of them really have any priority over each other.

Next - Yeah, don't like, that doesn't mean hate. One link isn't going to settle enough.

I really don't think a new mario character for it is even all that likely currently, but ruling Jr out when he seems the next reoccuring major role mario character not playable in Smash...Eh...

BTW: SMW Is my favorite one of the series. Just going to note that now.

Anyways, moveset critism time!

B: Iceball (from New Super Mario Bros. Wii)

Overpower much? Try: Sometimes they freeze, especially when charged, but If this move is spammed too much it can hit you!

Side B: Golden Toad (from Mario Kart: Double Dash!!)

Of course, move has a possibility of leading you to your death. Maybe not being able to change Left and Right much? (Similar to wario's bike)

Up B: Propeller Spin (from New Super Mario Bros. Wii)

I remember in one of the mario party games he had a sort of jetpack. He could use that with the propeller spin. Seems to be fine.

Down B: Mini Mushroom (from Super Mario Kart)

Think this one should be balanced out more - How about Various Effects? And of course being smaller for less long than the average item.

Rest seems fine to me.

Am I the only one who thinks Toad would somewhat play like Pichu if he was a playable character? The whole speed/power/being light thing kinda left that impression on me.

This actually makes me have some want for him. Hello new pichu...

So yeah, with all this moveset talk, I kinda want to see one for Bowser Jr.

GO PIEMAN GO.

...I can also give a crack at this one later today as well. Hmm, or maybe the goroh one. Depends on what other movesets get posted.

That, and I seriously want to see a reasonable moveset for Samurai Goroh. Still haven't found anything for him that seems suitable, surprisingly.

...I agree with this, because I certainly don't want to see "GOROH...PAWNCH" On my screen.

I think the Koopalings should be an Assist Trophy similar to the ExiteBike one.

Also a good suggestion for the koopalings. Maybe 3 or so come out all having different effects? Would be cool.

NSMBWii out tomorrow! (in Europe)

Wait...
You live in Europe?

 

[DekuBoy]

Yes I do. You sound quite surprised. I'm the Welsh guy round these parts.

Indeed Mario characters are the big topic as of late. Maybe Bowser Jr should get a magic wand in his moveset to reference the Koopalings? They all used it in SMB3 if I'm not mistaken...

 

[Big-Cat]

I got something here that might be a little controversial:
What if you could pull up a list of special moves like in other fighters? To be more specific, it lists special throws and specials along with any particular properties those moves have and any other traits (ie Peach's float). I think this would make the game a little more accessible without oversimplifying things. It would also help people find their suitable characters.

Let me give you an example with Samus (note my personal buffs are in here).

Grapple Beam Reel
(In Air) Z

Charge Beam
B
- -> or <- while charging to store
- Cancel shot with B

Missile
Side B
- Hard Side B: Super Missle
- Soft Side B: Homing Missle
- Cancel with B

Screw Attack
Up B

Morphball Bomb
Down B


I might have a picture up later, but no promises.

 

[SmashChu]

Yeah, should that make me more or less informed?
Yes, in the fact that you've never lived though Mario Bros 3 or Mario World.

Koppaling =/= Koopaling...JK,JK. But uh, what's your source?

Unless you do a poll, there is no source, but you can tell from fans reactions. There was a lot of excitement after E3 when people found out you could fight the Koppalings. As I said, a lot of members on VgChartz made their avatars on of the Koppalings. I've never seen Bowser Jr. be an avatar.

Loosly quoting Toise, game designers make games the way they want to. Jr.'s inclusion has been pushed since he took a main role in a mario game, so someone thought that he was important, regardless of his popularity. Its funny that you should mention age, because those who aren't able to distinguish Jr. from the Koopalings are probably 11 or younger, so your statement about people recognizing Jr. as a Koopaling may be correct in that sense. But like I said earlier, the fact that they have been pushing Jr's role means that the designers want him to be iconic.

While the italics is kind of true, these games and developers end up running into problems. Malstrom (who I quote a lot) has criticized Nintendo of making gams they want, which is why we Galazy 2 and Other M rather then Kid Icarus or Starfox. I mean, it was 19 years since a 2D Mario game was on a console, despite they sells over 10 million.

The thing is, Smash is an game about who people like. Despite what other Nintendo developers do, Sakurai has to make character people want to see. If people don;t want Bowser Jr, then we wont see him.

Lastly, you can not force a character to be iconic. They usually get stuck where they are. If people who nothing of the Koppalings (as a lot of younger fans don't) begin to like them more then Bowser Jr, then you'll see him start taking a back set to them. As I mentioned earlier, a man said his children didn't like Bowser Jr. that much, but the Koppaling were an instant hit when they played Super Mario Bros 3.

You do realize that you leave moderate to long posts, there might be something else on our minds as we are reading it or perhaps we may not have noticed. But even then, if you are right, then there's nothing to prove you wrong on, perhaps some people don't care enough to follow the link. Its nice that you attempted at providing sources in that regard.

The post wasn't that long (it was three paragraphs). You'd either have to skim it, or have poor reading comprehension to miss it.

I'm seeing a contradiction here, but since you may not, its safe to say that you don't like Jr that much.

Too everyone reading, this point is irrelevant to the discussion. Why should it matter if I like him or not?

This argument is fluff and tries to take attention from reason and onto why I'm arguing a point. My reason for arguing something is not part of the discussion. Plus, I can say the same thing to you and anything else.

Less groundbreaking? By your logic, it should be ground breaking if Bowser wasn't the main antagonist of SMSun and regained that role in Galaxy. Video games that introduce nostalgic events like these don't really respect time, they happen and they are nice, but then its over and people want something else (its been less than 2 years and people already want SSB4). How many of you screamed for joy when you discovered that these characters were present in NSMB? The less offensive version of what I'm trying to say is that 'groundbreaking' may not be the greatest phrase to describe the return of the Koopalings. Its nice that they were included, but they are nothing to slober over (IMO). I think Jr's a BA and I haven't even played Sunshine fully, so no its not safe to say "no one really cares about him"

I call it just like I see it

Bowser Jr. was always disliked. Most people find him as an irrelevant character. Younger fans only see him as important because they started around the same time as when he was introduced. He's a weak villain because there is nothing menacing about him. He's just a brat, and it shows as he's rarely a boss. The Koppalings were still seen as a threat as they turned the kings into animals and commanded a huge airship. They were also fights in the very beginning, were Bowser Jr. didn't become a boss until New Super Mario Bros (and even then, he was just a mid boss).

Older fans have always liked the Koppalings as they at least posed a threat and had their own unique personalities. This is why they can so easily be brought back with so few changes. The thing is, you probably don't hear from many older fans, so you never know how they act. My friends thought it was cool that they were back, and these guys played the old school Mario games. Like I posted, the father thought Bowser Jr. was the worst Nintendo villain and his kids immediately took to the Koppalings.

I highly doubt that all of the Koopalings are going to be playable characters. The worst that might happen is that neither are included in SSB4 or that the Koopalings will be story mode bosses and Jr will be made into an AT.

I doubt either will be playable, but it is very important to note that Bowser Jr. wasn't even in Brawl save for a Trophy. Waluigi was an assist instead. Heck, people actually want to see Waluigi in his own game. I have never heard anyone say the same thing for Bowser Jr.

 

[ScoobyCafe]

...I agree with this, because I certainly don't want to see "GOROH...PAWNCH" On my screen.

That'd be awful.

You know, the more I see Goroh and the way he's built, the more his character screams "wrestler" to me. I know he's a samurai, therefore he'd likely have a sword attack or two, but a wrestler seems more apt for him.

That said, I may as well post a quick moveset once I come up with something. It shouldn't be too difficult. =)

I got something here that might be a little controversial:
What if you could pull up a list of special moves like in other fighters? To be more specific, it lists special throws and specials along with any particular properties those moves have and any other traits (ie Peach's float). I think this would make the game a little more accessible without oversimplifying things. It would also help people find their suitable characters.

I think Melee tried something similar, describing character attributes and specials in the trophies. This was cut from Brawl, if I'm not mistaken.

I wouldn't mind if something like that appears in SSB4, though.

 

[Hyesz]

Koopalings are far more iconic than Bowser Junior.

It's called Super Mario World.

... and Mario 3, I guess (Their Debut, just they didn't seem as epic back then).

Edit: Wait a second, who gives a crap? Bowser is way more pro anyway fgts.