[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[ScoobyCafe]

Lol, I should probably just ignore Chu's post. I'm not one to argue over silly stuff like this. Oh well.

If the game is iconic, so is the content that makes up said game. Naturally, so are the Koppalings, along with power-ups like the Tanooki Suit and locations like Huge World.

Doesn't work that way. Yes, some content is part of what makes something iconic, but so is attention and devotion, something they're kinda lacking on. Koopalings maybe iconic among nostalgists, but I personally don't see them as such. Sue me.

It's called an example. Seeing as I'm the only one who ever brings any of these to the table, it's hard for me, or any onlookers, to agree with your point.

Whatever you say. Continue thinking that VgChartz shares the majority of peoples' sentiments, see how that works out for you.

The point is you can not force an icon. People become icons, but there were never so by being forced into it. This is what Nintendo has been doing with Bowser Jr.

No, they aren't forcing him, negative nancy. He's not appearing in so many games because Nintendo is forcing him to be an icon. He'll do so by the fans accord if he isn't a icon already.

In other words, ignore what has been mentioned and KEEP ON TRUCKIN'

Pretty much. I'm not for hypotheticals.

Not many people like him. I've never heard anyone get excited when he showed up in Sunshine. No one thought it was cool that he was in any other game either.

Not many people like him is correct. The dislike for him is the minority here, many more like Bowser Jr. His appearance in so many game, including main Mario games, is a testament to that. He wouldn't be so prevalent otherwise.

Also, talking in absolutes doesn't make your point any more true. =)

Not a point.

I'm serious, it's a cool story.

I tend to look at sites with an older audience (like VGchartz and 4chan). Thing thing is most older fans tend to hate, dislike, or not care about Bowser Jr. Waluigi is really an underdog in their eyes because they want Nintendo to put him in a game. He was hated before, but people are warming up too him. People aren't doing the same for Bowser Jr, despite the fact he is in all the main Mario games and not Waluigi.

Bold: lol

Why would Bowser Jr get his own game again? He's appearing in main Mario games, like you said, so I don't see the point. I'm sure others feel the same, which is why you don't here such things as wanting him in his own game.

And if anyone is disliked here, it's Waluigi. He's easily considered to be the worst Mario character conceived by many. Plus Tingle was an AT, does this mean he has a better chance of being playable than Toon Zelda? Think about what you're saying.

Kids like Bowser Jr. only because they know nothing else. The post about the children was important as it showed that kids, despite having seen Bowser Jr first, like the Koppalings more.

If only more kids felt that way, perhaps we'd see them more often. Til then, kids like Bowser Jr. Doesn't matter if they know nothing else, that's what they like.

So yeah, reply if you want, but I'm done with this talk about Koopalings vs Bowser Jr. I'm sure Junior will be the new playable Mario character if Sakurai decides to add another. Koopalings... assist trophies or SSE mini-bosses I'm cool with. Goroh next.

I actually got a moveset for Goroh now. Also have one for Bowser Jr but I don't feel like putting it in the same post.

Goroh:
Description - Since his sword streches out really long, It'll have you take less damage when you're further away, unlike how Marth's is affected by the tip of the sword. His A Attacks are the sword, and B Attacks, well...

A attacks as in his repeated A, tilts, and smash attacks? I dunno, I'd like to mix it up a bit more. :v

B> - The 11 Fierce Combo:
This one is a rather simple one. Goroh will do 11 slashes, but being that he can't move to the other side, the easist way to avoid this is to try and move back. This move is chargeable.

B - Tackle:
Goroh will grab his opponent then Tackle him. This move is rather tricky to know when It's coming (And I haven't developed it much)

B^ - Jump:
Goroh thrusts himself foward with his third jump to try and reach the stage.

Bv - Body Slam:
Very powerful move, but It takes a while for Goroh to get back up. No change in direction, and It's preffered to do in the air.

It's pretty darn difficult thinking up a good special list for him, isn't it? I struggled yesterday.

This is just about decent, though. I'd tweak his neutral, up and down specials a bit, but overall, it's alright.

FS - Car...Slam?:
Sadly, I'm not very original, so goroh will get his car at high speeds but failing into the ground, thus causing these possible effects:
Freezer - Tons of freezies come out flying at everyone, sometimes hitting you as well. Will freeze of course so be careful.
Lip Stick - Similar to freeze.
Bomb - This will be like the "Smart Bomb" Item. Basically, worst case scenario for goroh. Run!

@ Car Slam.

Fire Stingray would probably be the name of his Final Smash, since it's the name of his car. Decent idea, though.

Don't you mean give Wii *Insert something here* A break?

Yeah, there's tons of games I want. Too bad Mother won't be seeing a 3-D Version of it anytime soon. At least I have Golden Sun DS Along with S&P2 (When they get release dates here .-.) ...

Mario, Zelda, and Metroid to be more specific. Nintendo has a console that prints money, I don't understand why they don't use what they earned to make a first class Star Fox game or an amazing Donkey Kong game. They're capable of giving those series the same treatment yet they don't. Jesus.

Yeah, see, one of the biggest complaints I see with brawl is "The online is a piece of junk" Yet I've seen no person to date bother to go into details. Unsure of how we'll get everyone to notice tho.

I may write up a big wall o' text today showing exactly why online fails and how it could become 10x better.

@ToiseOfChoice
He's going to be rather fierce once I'm done with him. Wouldn't mind if you personally critic his moves as soon as I post it here. ;]

 

[Arcadenik]

I don't know about you guys but it is hard to take someone seriously, especially when he gets his sources from 4chan.

Both Waluigi and Bowser Jr. are not interesting characters. They are basically Mary Sues of the Mario series. Here, we have Waluigi who is Luigi's rival and Wario's brother... and Bowser Jr. who is Bowser's son and the youngest of the Koopalings and he coincidentally looks exactly like Baby Bowser. They look like they are unoriginal fan creations from DeviantArt.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Baby Daisy showed up in Mario Super Sluggers, too.

Yay for spin-off characters who don't matter. Anyways, onto the actual post;

You have to make up everything from scratch for all these characters. Most of the support for Wario characters stems from the whole "we need more females!" idea which is why the most supported Wario characters are usually Mona, Ashley, Kat & Ana, and Captain Syrup. They are not very noteworthy.

Syrup being Wario's villian and Mona/Jimmy T Being signifigant to WW Isn't enough?

And moveset: (This one is for Jimmy T)
B> - Cat Throw
Bv - Cell Phone
B - Disco spin.
B^ - Moonwalk
FS - Ultimante Disco

I could easily go into specifics, and this is from someone who doesn't know Warioware or Warioland much. A lot of movesets have had to been made from scratch before. FMOI Posted a list way back during the tingle debates.

But they are not as supported as Toad and Bowser Jr.

Funny, because this runs back into what geno mainly has as well, not that I think the two characters from yoshi are that plausible anyways since both don't really do much.

(Mario Big Eight)

Fan term that nintendo probably hasn't even noticed.

And if anyone is disliked here, it's Waluigi. He's easily considered to be the worst Mario character conceived by many. Plus Tingle was an AT, does this mean he has a better chance of being playable than Toon Zelda? Think about what you're saying.

It's just like saying that Jeff stands a better chance over Claus and Pokey for being an Assist Trophy...

...Oh wait.

A attacks as in his repeated A, tilts, and smash attacks? I dunno, I'd like to mix it up a bit more. :v

It's pretty darn difficult thinking up a good special list for him, isn't it? I struggled yesterday.

This is just about decent, though. I'd tweak his neutral, up and down specials a bit, but overall, it's alright.

Would like to see your Goroh moveset too, anyways...
1)Yeah, It could be mixed up.
2)How should I tweak them up? I'll keep thinking, but at least I got a moveset I can invision him with.
3)Renamed it. Fire Sting...Crash.

Mario, Zelda, and Metroid to be more specific. Nintendo has a console that prints money, I don't understand why they don't use what they earned to make a first class Star Fox game or an amazing Donkey Kong game. They're capable of giving those series the same treatment yet they don't. Jesus.

Oh the things I would do for another Assult or Starfox 64. They really need to try out more of there other series, especially with all this smash bros representation running around.

I may write up a big wall o' text today showing exactly why online fails and how it could become 10x better.

If It's good and we get enough agreements, we may have a slight chance at fixing more.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

@Scoobs: Gonna be judging it mostly on the visual aspects and whatnot, mostly in comparison to his scenes in GX (though I guess some of the flashier things he does in the anime wouldn't be all that bad in moderation).

And I'm probably butting in, but I'm getting the impression that you think Chu wants playable Koopalings. You know he's just contrasting them to Junior to explain why he shouldn't be in, right?


@Arcadenik: That's not what Mary Sue means, but you're right about the unoriginality bit.

 

[Pieman0920]

While I won't deny that Bowser Jr. (Or Waluigi for whatever reason he was thrown in here) are by no means original characters, I can't help but be confused about the reason why this argument is going down, especially if it has to do with Bowser Jr's status compared to the Koopalings, since...I just don't see the point. People may like the Koopalings more, but they are still not a valid character choice, while Bowser Jr. is. BJ may have some hate going for him also, but whatever amount of hate that is, its not nearly enough to effect this sort of thing, since he's clearly popular. It just wouldn't make sense to have him show up again and again, and even get what is pretty much the main villain role in NSMB. (A little less so in NSMBWii)

And for Goroh's potential moveset, I can't help but think that he will have completely made up moves, but I would find it interesting if his moves were refferences to attacks in F-Zero. (Side attack, spin attack, and maybe even the boost for recovery)

 

[Arcadenik]

Captain Syrup is the only recurring villain in the Wario Land series. Then again, so are Kamek and Baby Bowser in Yoshi series. I think Captain Syrup is about as important as those two.

Also, what is so notable about Mona, Ashley, Jimmy T., Kat & Ana, 9-Volt, and the rest? What makes one employee stand out from the rest? They are all equally important. Picking one WarioWare employee over the others is like picking one Koopaling over the others or picking one Hunter over the other Metroid Prime Hunters.

 

[Pieman0920]

Well while he doesn't really matter as much, or has as many fans as Syrup, Rudy the Clown has shown up twice.

As for the WW employees, Mona generally is the one who stands out the most. She and Jimmy are the ones who show up the most, though Mona seems to have a higher importance in the story.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Wario is much, much further removed from Mario than Yoshi's games are, that's why the characters there are more important. Yoshi games still have all these Mario elements (particularly Mario and Bowser themselves), whereas Wario games have their own thing going. Context wise, Syrup's the same as King K. Rool rather than Kamek.

As for Mona, she's the most popular character in the series and one of two characters to appear in every single WarioWare game so far. She also gives off something of a "second-in-command that does more work than the boss" kind of vibe whenever she interacts with Wario. That and no one else seems to interact with him at all.


edit: Dr. Mario 64 totally doesn't count

 

[Pieman0920]

Maybe Dr. Mario 64 doesn't count as a Wario game, but Rudy did show up in it, so it totally does count as a second apperance for him.

But yeah, the Yoshi series does have more focus on the regular Mario series....Heck, Mario's actually in most of those games, while the Wario games generally don't have Mario at all. (I think there were some cameos in the first game or something)

Actually in regards to Kamek, I sort of expect more people to start supporting him after NSMBWii had a magikoopa that pretty much had the exact same role as him, and actually got into a fight, unlike the Kamek from YI.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Yeah I know that it's a second appearance, I'm just emphasizing the Wario Land part.

As for Kamek, I figured his NSMBWii appearance hasn't quite sunk in just yet (especially in Europe where the game just released today). That or people don't care all that much about him, whichever.

 

[Pieman0920]

Perhaps they don't but he's generally the first person people go to when they start thinking that all the original series need a second character.

Actually NSMBWii is sort of strange in that its got so many refferences to older Mario games, with very few new things going for it. Thus when it comes to the debate about how representation for the Mario series should expand, it sort of stays neutral because it has benefits for Toad, Bowser Jr., Kamek, and even the Koopalings. Odd...

 

[Arcadenik]

More game appearances usually don't mean they are very important. I mean, most of you guys say Toad isn't very important in Mario games lately despite being the second Nintendo character with the most game appearances after Mario. At least Toad is more recognizable and popular than Mona and anyone else from WarioWare.

Also, Rudy the Clown's second appearance was only in Dr. Mario 64. Does this help Rudy's case?

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Toad and Mona are from separate series, so Toad has no bearing on Wario's cast.

Toad's appearances are mostly supporting roles in the main Mario games, whereas Mona's essentially THE WarioWare character (not counting Wario himself of course).

When people think of Mario games, they always think of Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Bowser. Do they think of Toad? Some do, thus Toad is arguably important to that series (though I personally think he's not important enough in this case, and that's coming from a guy whose only owned Nintendo merchandise ever is a Toad plush).

When people think of Wario games, they usually think of Wario, Syrup (for Wario Land) or Mona (for WarioWare). They might think of some of the other enemies from Wario Land or the other WarioWare characters, but those two stand out. That's why they have a chance.


Rudy's pretty much out unless he comes back in more games. That and people have to start caring about him.

 

[ScoobyCafe]

Would like to see your Goroh moveset too, anyways...
1)Yeah, It could be mixed up.
2)How should I tweak them up? I'll keep thinking, but at least I got a moveset I can invision him with.
3)Renamed it. Fire Sting...Crash.

2) I think you could add a bit more to Tackle and Jump, the latter I pretty much tweaked in my own moveset. Not sure how I'd go about tweaking Tackle, though.

And I like the new name. <3

And I'm probably butting in, but I'm getting the impression that you think Chu wants playable Koopalings. You know he's just contrasting them to Junior to explain why he shouldn't be in, right?

Not at all, he made it crystal clear that he didn't think either of them would make it in. That aside, here's the quick Goroh moveset I came up with. Hopefully you guys like it.

A: One strong tomahawk chop

F-Tilt: A downward elbow
D-Tilt: A quick big boot
U-Tilt: Goroh does a motion that looks like he's swatting a fly.

Dashing Attack: Goroh rears back his bulging biceps and delivers a brutal clothesline

F-Smash: A very SCARY diving headbutt, scary because it hurts... a lot.
D-Smash: Goroh forms a fist and pounds the floor.
U-Smash: Goroh hops forward at a slight angle with his brawny shoulder leading the way.

B: Stingray Lariat
Goroh enters a pose and charges up for the attack. Once finished, his sword will glow a pinkish color while his body flashes. Much like a spinning top, Goroh will spin frantically with sword in hand, hurting whoever is near. Without the sword, a pinkish trailing aura will circle him, much like the spin attack in F-Zero GX. He'll spin faster and deal more damage depending on how long the attack is charged. He'll just nudge forward a little if the attack is used without charging, like the attack in F-Zero GX.

Over B: Stingray Stampede
Goroh rages forward, cackling like a mad man and swinging his sword all over the place. Without his sword, he'd run forward with one hand stretched out and grab the opponent to either powerslam him/her (forward) or suplex him/her (backwards), somewhat like Bowser's Koopa Claw in Melee.

Up B: Thrusting Stingray
Used on the ground, Goroh would jump and catch his opponent mid-air, placing him/her over his shoulders and backbreaks the opponent before tossing said opponent aside. Used in the air, Goroh would jump farther--if he catches an opponent, he would immediately drive his shoulder into him/her.

Down B: Stinging Spear
3rdkoopa suggested something similar for his neutral special. Goroh drives his shoulder into the opponent's mid-section, tackling the opponent and forcing him down. Can't think of anything else, truth be told. lol

Special Mechanic: Sword drop. Goroh will drop his sword after blocking so many attacks or getting hit so many times, kinda like how Kirby loses his copy ability. Unlike Kirby, he'd be able to pick it up if it's still on the field.

Finished. Critique away.

 

[Pieman0920]

I'm not saying Rudy has a chance. I was just pointing out that he's another Wario villain that has shown up more than once.

And I wouldn't really think that anyone would think of enemies from the Wario Land series that much, given that WL enemies seem to change with every game. There are usually always things that act just like Goombas, but those usually change with each game. Still that doesn't have much effect, if any, on SSB4. (Though the inconsistancy of the Wario Land series' portrayal may be a reason why it didn't get any focus in Brawl or maybe why Wario wasn't playable in Melee)

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

@Scoobs: Not really digging the sword dropping bit, but it's pretty good. Was actually expecting some sumo stuff in there too, guess that's what throws are for.

@Pieman: Meant enemies as in main villains, but either way Syrup is the only truly consistent element there. And I always assumed there hasn't been any real Wario Land content in Brawl because Sakurai doesn't know anything about the handheld titles (since we still got little bits of Wario World and the Shake It theme).

 

[Arcadenik]

Well, to be fair, I think that more people will think of Toad when they think of Mario games after they play NSMBWii. The playable protagonists are what stick out the most in many people's minds. Think about it... most of the Brawl roster were playable protagonists in recent games.

 

[Pieman0920]

That could be true. It actually sort of seems that he stays away from handheld stuff when it came to Brawl, though it could have just been that he was lazy (Easier to get away with ripping songs/trophies from console games rather than handhelds.) It also wouldn't be the first thing that Sakurai has clearly not been keeping up with. (Star Fox being the other by his own statements)

Also about the Goroh moveset, what would happen if Goroh's sword fell off the stage? Would he only be able to get a new one if he respawned? In any case, I still kind of think that if you include a spin attack refference, that there should be a side attack refference too, since I always thought that was the better attack. (It could either work as a counter, or a really short range attack to both sides that does a lot of damage)

 

[darksamus77]

Well, to be fair, I think that more people will think of Toad when they think of Mario games after they play NSMBWii. The playable protagonists are what stick out the most in many people's minds. Think about it... most of the Brawl roster were playable protagonists in recent games.

I agree...even MK was playable in Super Star Ultra, which is the main reason I got that game

 

[Thirdkoopa]

While I won't deny that Bowser Jr. (Or Waluigi for whatever reason he was thrown in here) are by no means original characters, I can't help but be confused about the reason why this argument is going down, especially if it has to do with Bowser Jr's status compared to the Koopalings, since...I just don't see the point. People may like the Koopalings more, but they are still not a valid character choice, while Bowser Jr. is. BJ may have some hate going for him also, but whatever amount of hate that is, its not nearly enough to effect this sort of thing, since he's clearly popular. It just wouldn't make sense to have him show up again and again, and even get what is pretty much the main villain role in NSMB. (A little less so in NSMBWii)

But on the contrary, Bowser Jr doesn't have a lot going for him. As Toise noted, Bowser Jr is arguably important along with toad (However, Bowser Jr is quickly making up for it) So for an overall not that interesting supporting character that isn't really all that needed when it comes down to it (Well, asides from his Paintbrush and possible wand...But we know what happened to Toon Link)

Actually NSMBWii is sort of strange in that its got so many refferences to older Mario games, with very few new things going for it. Thus when it comes to the debate about how representation for the Mario series should expand, it sort of stays neutral because it has benefits for Toad, Bowser Jr., Kamek, and even the Koopalings. Odd...

I don't have it yet so I can't really comment, but If kamek starts having more fighting roles (Especially in the yoshi series) And standing out more then great, because then Yoshi won't have to be lonely on there.

Koopalings have quite a few suggestions already listed for them overall in the thread, and Toad with the moveset.

At least Toad is more recognizable and popular than Mona and anyone else from WarioWare.

And toad is also probably more popular than K.Rool, does that make him more viable?

Yeah, Wario =/= Mario series in this case. Syrup, Mona (And kinda Jimmy T, but I really doubt him) Stand out for valid contestants for Wario, and really, I don't see why the support is so small asides from mainly Toise and I. They're all three original characters, and they can have there own movesets made as shown, also important to WarioWare/Land/Whatever.

Now, why should Wario be denied a second character again while Mario gets 5? (And technically 3) And don't say sales, because as stated, when you take away the pretty sales charts, you see the true colors.

When people think of Mario games, they always think of Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Bowser. Do they think of Toad? Some do, thus Toad is arguably important to that series (though I personally think he's not important enough in this case, and that's coming from a guy whose only owned Nintendo merchandise ever is a Toad plush).

Everything I've been saying summed up for those who want a tl;dr.

Also be noted I still do like the idea of Toad and Bowser Jr (Which is why I made a moveset for Bowser Jr in the first place, still haven't posted it)

 

[Arcadenik]

Pieman, I want to bring up something you pointed out. You said Sakurai seemed to stray away from handheld games in Brawl. I think there might be some truth to it.

SSB characters who had games on the consoles: Mario, Donkey Kong, Link, Samus, Yoshi, Kirby, Fox, Luigi, Captain Falcon, Ness

SSB characters who didn't have games on the consoles: Pikachu, Jigglypuff

Melee newcomers who had games on the consoles: Bowser, Peach, Zelda, Sheik, Ice Climbers, Marth, Dr. Mario, Ganondorf, Falco, Young Link

Melee newcomers who didn't have games on the consoles: Mewtwo, Mr. Game & Watch, Pichu, Roy

Brawl newcomers who had games on the consoles: Meta Knight, Pit, Wario, Snake, Ike, Diddy Kong, Sonic, King Dedede, Olimar, Wolf, Toon Link

Brawl newcomers who didn't have games on the consoles: Zero Suit Samus, Pokemon Trainer, Lucas, Lucario, R.O.B.

Also, notice how most of the characters who had their games on the handhelds but never on the consoles ended up as Assist Trophies.... Barbara, Helirin, Infantry & Tanks, Isaac, Jill, Lyn, Nintendog, Ray MK III, Starfy, and Tingle.

Maybe the reason Wario didn't get in SSB was because all of his games were on the Game Boy and never on the SNES or N64. At least by the time Wario got in Brawl, he had a game on the Gamecube.

Edit: Thirdkoopa, you talk as if Toad isn't viable for Smash when you compared him to King K. Rool. While Bowser Jr. is catching up on story importance, Toad is catching up on moveset potential. Yes, I know Sakurai doens't care about story importance or moveset potential, but I suspect Sakurai will pick the character who is more iconic, more interesting, and could provide something unique (NSMBWii-based moveset for Toad?) but that's if Sakurai wants to go for it. Of course, knowing Sakurai's track record, if he wants to make the final roster bigger he could just add Bowser Jr. as a Bowser clone. Well, him or Dr. Mario.

 

[Big-Cat]

Yeah, Wario =/= Mario series in this case. Syrup, Mona (And kinda Jimmy T, but I really doubt him) Stand out for valid contestants for Wario, and really, I don't see why the support is so small asides from mainly Toise and I. They're all three original characters, and they can have there own movesets made as shown, also important to WarioWare/Land/Whatever.

Actually, I support these two as well, but more so for Syrup because I think she has a lot of potential both in and out of Smash. I still have a liking for Ashley, but she's not top priority or anything.

 

[BBQTV]

pokemon had 3 consle games

 

[darksamus77]

Pieman, I want to bring up something you pointed out. You said Sakurai seemed to stray away from handheld games in Brawl. I think there might be some truth to it.

SSB characters who had games on the consoles: Mario, Donkey Kong, Link, Samus, Yoshi, Kirby, Fox, Luigi, Captain Falcon, Ness

SSB characters who didn't have games on the consoles: Pikachu, Jigglypuff

Melee newcomers who had games on the consoles: Bowser, Peach, Zelda, Sheik, Ice Climbers, Marth, Dr. Mario, Ganondorf, Falco, Young Link

Melee newcomers who didn't have games on the consoles: Mewtwo, Mr. Game & Watch, Pichu, Roy

Brawl newcomers who had games on the consoles: Meta Knight, Pit, Wario, Snake, Ike, Diddy Kong, Sonic, King Dedede, Olimar, Wolf, Toon Link

Brawl newcomers who didn't have games on the consoles: Zero Suit Samus, Pokemon Trainer, Lucas, Lucario, R.O.B.

Also, notice how most of the characters who had their games on the handhelds but never on the consoles ended up as Assist Trophies.... Barbara, Helirin, Infantry & Tanks, Isaac, Jill, Lyn, Nintendog, Ray MK III, Starfy, and Tingle.

Maybe the reason Wario didn't get in SSB was because all of his games were on the Game Boy and never on the SNES or N64. At least by the time Wario got in Brawl, he had a game on the Gamecube.

Interesting...I'd certainly say based on that that Nintendo really favors the console games...although for me, it's kinda unfair that one-shots (People in only one game, like ZSS and I think ROB) got the nod over some prominent people in multiple games (Toad, Kamek, Dark Samus, Krystal)

 

[ScoobyCafe]

@Scoobs: Not really digging the sword dropping bit, but it's pretty good. Was actually expecting some sumo stuff in there too, guess that's what throws are for.

And aerials to an extent. I threw in the sword dropping tidbit to make him a tad more unique as well as balancing him out a bit. With sword, he'd be a powerhouse with great reach. Occasionally dropping it, he could fall back on his brute strength.

That could be true. It actually sort of seems that he stays away from handheld stuff when it came to Brawl, though it could have just been that he was lazy (Easier to get away with ripping songs/trophies from console games rather than handhelds.) It also wouldn't be the first thing that Sakurai has clearly not been keeping up with. (Star Fox being the other by his own statements)

Didn't he mention that he had absolutely no idea who Krystal was before? Or was it someone else he was talking about?

Also about the Goroh moveset, what would happen if Goroh's sword fell off the stage? Would he only be able to get a new one if he respawned? In any case, I still kind of think that if you include a spin attack refference, that there should be a side attack refference too, since I always thought that was the better attack. (It could either work as a counter, or a really short range attack to both sides that does a lot of damage)

Either re-spawns like an item or taunt to draw another sword. And I did include both the side and spinning attack for his neutral special. =)

Also, notice how most of the characters who had their games on the handhelds but never on the consoles ended up as Assist Trophies.... Barbara, Helirin, Infantry & Tanks, Isaac, Jill, Lyn, Nintendog, Ray MK III, Starfy, and Tingle.

Ray? Custom Robo had a few console games prior Melee. :v

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Thirdkoopa, you talk as if Toad isn't viable for Smash when you compared him to King K. Rool. While Bowser Jr. is catching up on story importance, Toad is catching up on moveset potential. Yes, I know Sakurai doens't care about story importance or moveset potential, but I suspect Sakurai will pick the character who is more iconic, more interesting, and could provide something unique (NSMBWii-based moveset for Toad?) but that's if Sakurai wants to go for it. Of course, knowing Sakurai's track record, if he wants to make the final roster bigger he could just add Bowser Jr. as a Bowser clone. Well, him or Dr. Mario.

I'm not saying he isn't - The point is that while Toad is more popular than Mona/Jimmy/Captain Syrup, It doesn't mean he's more relevant to mario than they are to Wario. I quoted a post at the end of mine making it clear on what I've been saying: Toad and Bowser Jr's importance enough to warrent a PC Slot are debateable, and really are questionable once you take the pretty sales charts away. As I said earlier, I'm more on a 50/50 verge on both.

And they both have moveset potential; It's just that Jr also has more clone possibility potential (After ganondorf, I have the feeling anything could be possibly made into a clone. TOAD...PAWNCH)

@Kuma: Yay! Another supporter.

 

[Arcadenik]

@ Scooby

Custom Robo may have a couple console games but were they heavily advertised by Nintendo prior to launch like they did for Pikmin and Punch-Out? Were they successful like Pikmin and Punch-Out were?

@ BBQTV

Pokemon Snap and Pokemon Stadium 1+2 aren't the main games like Pokemon Red/Blue/Yellow.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

And aerials to an extent. I threw in the sword dropping tidbit to make him a tad more unique as well as balancing him out a bit. With sword, he'd be a powerhouse with great reach. Occasionally dropping it, he could fall back on his brute strength.

Yeah, I figured it was that, but I still object to it as far as style goes. One of his recurring traits seems to be his amazing control (the grip on the Fire Stingray being A ranked, the backflips, the little paper cutouts with his sword, cutting people's clothes off without touching their skin in the anime, etc.). Seems kinda out of place for him to clumsily drop his main weapon, even if he looks like a total buffoon.

 

[Pieman0920]

But on the contrary, Bowser Jr doesn't have a lot going for him. As Toise noted, Bowser Jr is arguably important along with toad (However, Bowser Jr is quickly making up for it) So for an overall not that interesting supporting character that isn't really all that needed when it comes down to it (Well, asides from his Paintbrush and possible wand...But we know what happened to Toon Link)

Wait, are you defining a character's need to be in the game as based around what new things they can bring? If so, that's sort of flawed. Its probably true that Bowser Jr. would have some attacks borrowed, like taking Squirtle's withdraw, since that move works pretty much like the shell attack that Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings use, but other things can obviously be different. For instance, if that shell attack was his down special (possibly charge it up like ROB charges his top or Sonic charges his down special, and then the durration depends on the charge) then the other three specials could go to the Koopa Clown Car (Up special that works akin to how the propeller suit in NSMBWii works, yet sort of also acts like Wario's bike) the paint brush (side special where Bowser Jr. pulls out the paintbrush swings it, and a glob of paint comes down on the ground. I'm not sure what the effect should be, sicne it could pottentially be used for tripping, damaging, or slowing the opponent down, though I don't think that all these effects should be used) and lastly the fire ball (Neutral special that works like a stronger yet laggier version of Luigi's fireball. Goes straight forward, and poofs out of exitence a bit earlier than most other projectiles)

Koopalings have quite a few suggestions already listed for them overall in the thread, and Toad with the moveset.

I have yet to see a realistic suggestion for the Koopalings. Please repost whatever the idea was, because I just can't see how it would work.

Either re-spawns like an item or taunt to draw another sword. And I did include both the side and spinning attack for his neutral special. =)

But the side attack is stronger than the spin attack though. The spin attack is like overly difficult to control attack that is better for crowds of cars but doesn't do much damage. The side attack requires precision and can only be used on a single car at a time, but if it hits, its almost always a OHKO.

 

[ScoobyCafe]

Custom Robo may have a couple console games but were they heavily advertised by Nintendo prior to launch like they did for Pikmin and Punch-Out? Were they successful like Pikmin and Punch-Out were?

That's not what you were trying to get at before. You specifically stated that Ray didn't have any console games, I just corrected you. No big deal.

Yeah, I figured it was that, but I still object to it as far as style goes. One of his recurring traits seems to be his amazing control (the grip on the Fire Stingray being A ranked, the backflips, the little paper cutouts with his sword, cutting people's clothes off without touching their skin in the anime, etc.). Seems kinda out of place for him to clumsily drop his main weapon, even if he looks like a total buffoon.

I see what you're saying. I actually used the fact that his car had A ranked grip for his grappling attacks. As far as anime goes, didn't Sakurai mention something about anime not being relevant to Smash Bros. or something of that nature?

@Pieman0920

If I re-arrange the properties for his neutral special, would that be okay with you?

EDIT:

Oh and to those who support Syrup for SSB4, how exactly is that going to happen? WarioWare is the franchise Wario hails from in Smash Bros., Syrup never appeared in WarioWare to my knowledge, so... yeah, would she be an exception or something?

 

[Arcadenik]

Okay, Scooby. Also, maybe Sakurai did not acknowledge Wario Land because he wanted to distance Wario from Mario? It always seemed to me that Wario's alternate costume was a later addition to please the Wario Land fans who weren't happy that Wario only had the WarioWare outfit and made-up moves that had nothing to do with Wario Land series except for side smash.

Edit: Wasn't Ray Mk III specifically from the DS game and not the Gamecube game?

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Hate re-mentioning this but for anyone interested in Stage Discussion, feel free to join this group: http://www.smashboards.com/group.php?groupid=1709 We could use some more people, since It's mainly Pie and I right now. Also because I would like to have a Stage of the Week contest eventually.

Wait, are you defining a character's need to be in the game as based around what new things they can bring? If so, that's sort of flawed.

I'm not defining it by that. (That was worded badly; My bad.) I'm saying that:
1)He really isn't all that needed (AKA: Not a core character, at least, not yet)
2)He isn't that original (Then again, on the contrary, a character doesn't have to be original in looks from another that much as long as his moves are nice. See: My avatar)

And when you add the two up, It's still an "..Eh.." Thing - But I do agree with you that hate doesn't do much (At least, in this case)

Also finally got a moveset out of you.

I have yet to see a realistic suggestion for the Koopalings. Please repost whatever the idea was, because I just can't see how it would work.

Oh - One for playable? If so for playable, I'll think up something.

If for anything else, there was tons mentioned. Final Smash, Assist Trophy, Having a storyline role, etc.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I've read the last couple of pages and I'll simply say this: if the baby Mario characters are ever made playable, I think I will set myself on fire... I do have to say though, I wouldn't mind if they found a way to incorporate all the Koopa Kids (including Jr) into one character. Granted, I don't know how it would work but they have enough similarities between one another that it would be reasonable enough to meld them into one. Maybe they could find a way to make them work like the Ice Climbers and have 2 at a time and, everytime you die, randomly switches to a different pair of Koopa kids. I imagine that each Koopa Kid would have their own unique stats but nothing too radically different that sets them apart from the others. I don't know... just throwing somethings out there.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

@Scoobs: Well there isn't any direct anime content in Smash (no "Ash," none of Kirby's villager friends, no Rick Wheeler), but the shows themselves may have an influence over the already existing content (Pokemon voices being the most prominent example there). In this specific case it doesn't matter since Goroh's excellent "grip" (a-har-har) is pretty well established in the games as well, figuratively through his car and literally in GX.


Wario hails from the Wario series, which is technically the two sister series: Wario Land (including the other platformers) and WarioWare. While there's almost no Wario Land content in Brawl for some reason, it's still part of the same overall "Wario" series. People just have a habit of using Wario the series and WarioWare interchangeably.

So yes, Syrup's fine.

 

[Arcadenik]

Personally, I would like that the whole Wario series be represented with:

- Wario as a playable character
- WarioWare outfit as the default costume
- Wario Land outfit as the alternate costume
- Wario Land stage
- WarioWare stage (either past stage or new one)
- WarioWare AT (either Kat & Ana or someone new)
- Wario Land boss (Captain Syrup with her genie or maybe the Shake King or even Rudy the Clown)
- more WarioWare trophies besides Kat & Ana and Wario Bike
- add several Wario Land trophies this time (and I don't mean just Captain Syrup only)

 

[DekuBoy]

What if they all had the same moveset (due to their similar body shape) and you choose the character you want. So 8 models for 1 moveset, cause I would say the movesets would take up a LOT more time than the models.

 

[ScoobyCafe]

@Toise: Can't argue there. So there's no chance of you accepting the sword dropping thing, then? If so, well, I guess I could go back and re-work the moveset. Kinda sucks that he won't have those other abilities now.

Okay, Scooby. Also, maybe Sakurai did not acknowledge Wario Land because he wanted to distance Wario from Mario? It always seemed to me that Wario's alternate costume was a later addition to please the Wario Land fans who weren't happy that Wario only had the WarioWare outfit and made-up moves that had nothing to do with Wario Land series except for side smash.

Edit: Wasn't Ray Mk III specifically from the DS game and not the Gamecube game?

I suppose so. I honestly have no idea what Sakurai was thinking with Wario. Hopefully he sees the Wario series like how people here sees it, otherwise I don't know where Syrup would fit in.

And Ray MK III? Well yeah, you're right about that. So I guess you were technically correct, then? lol

I've read the last couple of pages and I'll simply say this: if the baby Mario characters are ever made playable, I think I will set myself on fire...

I don't understand. Care to explain why you feel that way? I think the Baby Bros. would be a great Yoshi addition, even if people are indifferent about them.

 

[DekuBoy]

I would like a second Yoshi carrying Baby Mario. It would make more sense. Also two Yoshi's = cuteness overload.

Hey SmashChu you were right. NSMBWii is teh awesome.

 

[BBQTV]

no baby mario no baby luigi done and done

 

[Big-Cat]

@ThirdKoopa

I gotta say, breaking up the discussion into groups was a very smart idea.