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[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

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SmashChu

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Funny, I usually hear that SFIV borrowed primarily from 2 for gameplay. I myself can see the similarities as well.
To many of those players, it may "feel" like SF2. It would be the same as Brawl players saying the agme feels like 64. It doesn't; you just think it does.

How exactly are the bold all that hard? I just have to press an extra button or the PPP/KKK button to use an EX attack. Focus attacks are really easy to learn, you just got to know when it's best for your character to use it, just like any attack in Smash. Cancels are easy as well, just do a dash forward or backward to get out of it. I see scrubs pull this stuff out easily. The hard part, if anything, is knowing when to use them.
I'll go though each of them
EX-This is your problem. You look only at how hard it is to do one, not how it fits into the game. To everyone except competitive players, EXs are useless. I can fire a blue fireball, or a red one. It just adds layers to the game, but most players don't see that, nor do they care. They were a useless addition because only the top players could really use it. Everyone else didn't see the point.
Supers-The problem with SF4 is that the super, which is easier to do and is weaker, appear less then Ultras. Some characters don't even use their supers. I ask what the point of these were. Also, one motion is hard enough (which SF2 actually rewarded you for doing).
Ultras-Not only do these come up more, but they are harder to do. WTF? Plus, while 3 buttons doesn't sound hard, the window is so small of then to hit them. I have the same problem in TvC, so I have to use the L button (which is all three attack buttons).
Focus attacks-There isn't to much wrong with this, just that they cram too much stuff into the game
Focus cancel-I can't believe you think this is easy? Cancel anything is made for competitive players, and all it does is give them a huge advantage over weaker players. The problem is being able to do it on the fly. Plus, it's for the higher end players.

All of these are designed for dedicated Street Fighter players. So what am I suppose to do. It's no wonder SF has died and Smash has taken it's crown.

As for the Ultras, I will give it to you on Guile and Vega's Ultra as they have the most impractical motions out of all the characters in the cast, and that it's hard to pull it off unless you're on an arcade stick. Other than that, like everything in SF and Smash, you have to use Ultras wisely and find setups for them.
Seems like you dodged the question a little bit there.

Let's compare them though
Final Smash-Press B when you have a Smash Ball
Ultra-Preform two unique motions in rapid succession and press three punches or three kicks (depending on the character).

You can see the gap.


I don't know if my opinions reflect the rest of the competitive community, but I don't think everyone is looking for a game to become harder. What I think they, and every other gamer, don't want are sequels that have little to no changes. At the same time, they want a lot of replay value.
First, the bold: What? No, every gamer wants the game to be different. They want it too add to what made the first one great. Super Mario Bros 3 was an amazing sequel because it added so much. 8 huge worlds, new power-pus, lots of new enemies, the Koppalings, and new features like carrying a turtle shell.

Like I've said a million times, it's not that they are trying to make the game harder, they just demand features that would make the game harder. Does an ultra need to be that hard to do? No. But if it wasn't, the fans would go bonkers. They expect more depth and challenge, which in turn makes the game harder.

Let's look at an example: your Neo-Wavedashing. It lets you move quickly to the foe and attack. Newer player's will see no use because it would be just like running. It's also hard to do because you have to double tap back or forward, so it takes some precision. It will also widen the game between the top and lower level players. In turn, rather then spend so much time to try and get better, the player quits and find something they can like really quickly.

The thing is, while the players would want more people to play, they'd never want it too be more accessible. I've thought that to make Street Fighter big again, you'd have to go back to SF2. This would mean taking out most of the gameplay content (no ultra, EXs, Focus attacks, cancels of any kind and maybe supers). The problem is that the current fans would go ape ****. They'd hate it and see it as dumbed down. It would be hard to take off. The sad part is that Street Fighter is dead and can't come back from the grave. This also holds true for all other 2D fighting game sans Smash. So, this is the thing Smash has to avoid.


What exactly is Smash's growth? To become as easy as possible where everyone can win? Like any sport, you have to spend time with playing the game in order to better at it. If I'm the type that wants to play the game with no pressure, I'll do so by minding my own business and not getting involved with the stronger players.
Part of the reason the competitive community would never accept anything to make the game more accessible is that they always see it as an "easy win" button. The auto-recovery idea was seen as just that. Complexity in game play does not make good games. Super Mario Bros. was run and jump and sometime shooting fireballs. Sports aren't hard either. Soccer is about kicking a ball. There is no super cancel or ultra shot in soccer. You kick, pass and shot. Done.

To grow, Smash has to attract players who would have never played Smash before. Basically, make Smash more assessable. From there, they need to do things that will keep current players such as adding new, interesting, and relevant characters, as well as stages and music and what not.
 

SmashChu

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Sorry, double post
I haven't read anything up to this point (1000+ pages...wow) but is there any known dates for the new smash game? I'd imagine not for awhile. Any info on whether wave dashing and other AT's will be reintroduced?
Right now, the series's creator, Masahiro Sakurai, is currently working on a game titled "Project Sora" which is expected to be out in 2011. Until then, there probably won't be a Smash bros game.
 

gantrain05

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pac man would have been a better choice for a retro character than ROB......i don't care if nobody plays or likes pacman anymore, nobody ever liked or cared about or even heard of ROB before smash.
 

Neo Exdeath

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pac man would have been a better choice for a retro character than ROB......i don't care if nobody plays or likes pacman anymore, nobody ever liked or cared about or even heard of ROB before smash.

True, but Nintendo likes R.O.B. They've been putting him as an Easter egg in games since Kirby's Dream Land 3.
 

n88

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pac man would have been a better choice for a retro character than ROB......i don't care if nobody plays or likes pacman anymore, nobody ever liked or cared about or even heard of ROB before smash.
Actually, he appeared in Mario Kart DS, and he saved the video game industry, and he's not third-party like Pac-Man. Pac-Man would be a terrible choice over ROB.
 

Pieman0920

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Yes you are right.

Oh, and would you be able to accept a Naruto parody in Smash?
Really now Jumpman, I'm a fan of the series and don't want to drag this topic into something that is completely unrelated to it, but having something like that would be completely childish. It would just be antagonism for no reason what so ever, and that's why you'll never see it.

And quite frankly, a topic devoted soley on hate is probably the lowest type of thread you can possibly come up with.
 

Arcadenik

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Most people hated R.O.B. when he was confirmed to be playable in Brawl. Yeah, remember the whole "because of him my favorite character was not included" thing?

Also, Pac-Man is the only candidate to represent Namco. None of the Soul Calibur characters are mascots of Namco, they are just more popular. Pac-Man is Namco's mascot. He is what Mario is to Nintendo and what Sonic is to Sega. Also, just because Pac-Man haven't had a good game since his original game doesn't mean he is undeserving. Sonic haven't had a good game since his games went 3D anyway but he is still a video game icon. Also, Pac-Man has something in common with Sonic and R.O.B. - he starred in a couple of Mario spin-off games as a playable character. Yeah, he was in Mario Kart Arcade GP 1 and 2. He is also Miyamoto's favorite character. Pac-Man makes a whole lot more sense than some random character from Soul Calibur games to represent Namco.
 

Clownbot

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Morton: I thought that fireballs was all the potential Morton has ever shown, but you've certainly proved me wrong. The heavy emphasis on the Doom Pillars could be seen as questionable seeing as his only connection to them was them being present in his castle (right? I haven't played SMW for such a long time), but you've certainly pulled it off quite well, what with the chaingrabs and all. Yay for chaingrabs. There are definitely some epic moves like the FAir (despite being a rather random place for one of his trademark techniques... it was one of his trademarks, right? I need to replay SMW -_-)

Morton seems to have a couple of moves with tacked on effects to seem more original... The most significant one is the FSmash. Swallowing up a mouthful of dirt feels rather random and irrelevant to the use of the move. Well, actually, it is relevant since it means he can only use the move to finish the opponent off, but couldn't you give it horrible ending lag or something? Outside of the FSmash it isn't as bad, but there are a couple of things that feel rather off like stretching his claws for his Down Special (unless I'm missing one of his abilities), but they all add to the playstyle somehow, so I can hardly complain.


I'd like to say that Morton's playstyle is disjointed seeing as there are so many moves which interact differently with the Doom Pillars, but Morton actually comes together rather nicely. His playstyle flows very well, and it's actually somewhat interesting... I like it.
 
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Fixed?
anyway, I realized something, how come no one has suggested A Boy and His BLob as a playable character? Is he that unlikely? Or is he third party?
 

Neo Exdeath

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I added a period. I'm sorta a grammar Nazi.


NeverFiniteX said:
Toise, You fail @ life. Way to contradict your entire point of view entirely. First I thought you were just baised, this just shows how much of a douchebag yo really are.
Toise is one of the most respected people on this thread. How does that quote:

a. make him a ********
b. contradict his own point of view?
 

NeverFiniteX

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Last thing I'll mention is that most people in this thread on these boards on the internet everywhere typically think of things from their own perspective only.
Me myself I

That's all I'm seeing here. n88 already pointed this out too, so I don't have to get in-depth with why it's wrong.
So when you use examples from your own perspective its ok, but when I do it, I'm closed minded.

I erased the douchebag part because that was just me being angry at first but since Neo Exdeath kept it as a qoute, I'll answer for it.

You can't just spew out reasons why this or that thing is wrong or right without giving proof, facts, or qoutes; the examples you use will inevitably remain biased because they are from your own experiences or observations. The reason I called you a douche that is because of what you said to Kuma, which has been a constant throughout this thread, you say something and don't back it up properly .

Its a wonder that people give you credit for what you say with this reoccurance. Its all good because you're just some random guy and your opinion doesn't matter overall; it didn't matter for 64,Melee, or Brawl. The only opinion that really matters is Sakurai's since he is the head of the franchise (for now).

(*Waits for teh lash. At least you can rest easy knowing that you have followers like Chu and Exdeath, right?)
 

Big-Cat

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I'll go though each of them
EX-This is your problem. You look only at how hard it is to do one, not how it fits into the game. To everyone except competitive players, EXs are useless. I can fire a blue fireball, or a red one. It just adds layers to the game, but most players don't see that, nor do they care. They were a useless addition because only the top players could really use it. Everyone else didn't see the point.
BS. Pure BS. Even the most casual of players can see that an EX move is essentially a stronger version of an attack. I don't know what kind of experience you've had with EX attacks, but I highly doubt it's what others go through. If you play the game, you can tell the difference between a Hadouken and an EX Hadouken just by seeing each one once. One hits once, the other hits twice.

Supers-The problem with SF4 is that the super, which is easier to do and is weaker, appear less then Ultras. Some characters don't even use their supers. I ask what the point of these were. Also, one motion is hard enough (which SF2 actually rewarded you for doing).
The supers have been a part of the series since II Turbo, there's no need to get rid of them. Whether or not to use your super or use EX is up to you.

Ultras-Not only do these come up more, but they are harder to do. WTF? Plus, while 3 buttons doesn't sound hard, the window is so small of then to hit them. I have the same problem in TvC, so I have to use the L button (which is all three attack buttons).
Dude, if you're using a 360 controller, you just use one button instead of three.
Focus attacks-There isn't to much wrong with this, just that they cram too much stuff into the game
You say as if this is a bad thing. I suppose if they crammed in a bunch of unnecessary stuff like Masterpieces or stickers, you'd be fine.

Focus cancel-I can't believe you think this is easy? Cancel anything is made for competitive players, and all it does is give them a huge advantage over weaker players. The problem is being able to do it on the fly. Plus, it's for the higher end players.
I can't believe you think this is hard. You just freaking dash out of the Focus Attack.


Seems like you dodged the question a little bit there.

Let's compare them though
Final Smash-Press B when you have a Smash Ball
Ultra-Preform two unique motions in rapid succession and press three punches or three kicks (depending on the character).

You can see the gap.
What question?

First, the bold: What? No, every gamer wants the game to be different. They want it too add to what made the first one great. Super Mario Bros 3 was an amazing sequel because it added so much. 8 huge worlds, new power-pus, lots of new enemies, the Koppalings, and new features like carrying a turtle shell.
Read my post again. I said exactly what you said that everyone wants the sequels to be different from its predecessor.

You brought up SMB3, a platformer, and praised the additions made to the game, but you pretty much have a tantrum when it comes to fighting games. I smell fridge logic.

Like I've said a million times, it's not that they are trying to make the game harder, they just demand features that would make the game harder. Does an ultra need to be that hard to do? No. But if it wasn't, the fans would go bonkers. They expect more depth and challenge, which in turn makes the game harder.
Now you're just pulling stuff out of your ***. I've seen comments at SRK asking for some things to be a little easier to do, like El Fuerte's RSF combo loop. I don't think anyone's out to make the game harder; they mostly want a balanced game.

Let's look at an example: your Neo-Wavedashing. It lets you move quickly to the foe and attack. Newer player's will see no use because it would be just like running. It's also hard to do because you have to double tap back or forward, so it takes some precision. It will also widen the game between the top and lower level players. In turn, rather then spend so much time to try and get better, the player quits and find something they can like really quickly.
How the hell does it take precision to to double tap? You already do it once for running.

The thing is, while the players would want more people to play, they'd never want it too be more accessible. I've thought that to make Street Fighter big again, you'd have to go back to SF2. This would mean taking out most of the gameplay content (no ultra, EXs, Focus attacks, cancels of any kind and maybe supers). The problem is that the current fans would go ape ****. They'd hate it and see it as dumbed down. It would be hard to take off. The sad part is that Street Fighter is dead and can't come back from the grave. This also holds true for all other 2D fighting game sans Smash. So, this is the thing Smash has to avoid.
I've thought about this, but I don't think it has to do so much with accessibility so much as do people have an interest. After all, you're more than likely to find someone who plays primarily games like Halo, Madden, and GTA than someone who would be willing to play a game like Smash, Street Fighter, Tekken, or Soul Caliber.

I also laugh at you say Street Fighter is dead and ain't coming back. What do you call SFIV and Super SFIV? Zombies? A pathetic attempt?

Another thing, cancels have been in since SFII. It was originally a glitch, but people liked so it stayed. If you SF to go back to II, canceling will exist.

Part of the reason the competitive community would never accept anything to make the game more accessible is that they always see it as an "easy win" button. The auto-recovery idea was seen as just that. Complexity in game play does not make good games. Super Mario Bros. was run and jump and sometime shooting fireballs. Sports aren't hard either. Soccer is about kicking a ball. There is no super cancel or ultra shot in soccer. You kick, pass and shot. Done.
The auto-recovery was thought so because you barely went into the concept and most people had about the same idea. If you expanded on it a little more at first, it would've been better received.

Sports aren't hard? Tell that to the various sports teams around the world who practice and train themselves in order to be the best. I doubt you'd be up to their level. Then, there's also the strategy aspect in team sports like football and soccer.

To grow, Smash has to attract players who would have never played Smash before. Basically, make Smash more assessable. From there, they need to do things that will keep current players such as adding new, interesting, and relevant characters, as well as stages and music and what not.
Here's the funny thing, you can have an opposite effect of what you envision. By making it more accessible, it can get to the point where a lot of people view it as a party game and not worth their time. This applies to current and potential players.
 

Thrillhouse-vh.

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As for the Ultras, I will give it to you on Guile and Vega's Ultra as they have the most impractical motions out of all the characters in the cast, and that it's hard to pull it off unless you're on an arcade stick. Other than that, like everything in SF and Smash, you have to use Ultras wisely and find setups for them.
Weird and impractical? Yes. Hard and frustrating? Only if your gameplay revolves around Shoryuken on every wakeup and Hadoken spam. Same for Akuma's Raging Demon.

Why is SF IV even brought up here? There's an entire thread to bash on that SmashChu, and an entire thread for you not to Kuma.
 

Fatmanonice

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*reads Smashchu's and KumaOso's arguement*

Smashchu seems to be baseing his arguements on the amount of difficulty HE has in doing things. From the looks of it, he's pretty much expanding his own experience to be a lot more common than it really it is. It's essentially making a mountain out of a molehill and exaggerating the difficulty of what seems like simple things.

*reads some more*

Sports aren't hard? I'd love to see you hit a 90 mile per fastball, get full body tackeled by someone who weighs 350 and feel like playing the next game, hit a 7-10 split, make a 20 foot putt to make a birdie, calculate the exact angle needed to get a bank shot, etc. It's miseribly ironic that you're complaining about relatively basic mechanics in most fighting games and yet saying that sports are easy in comparison. Honest to God... I think I might need to lay on the floor for a few hours to recover from such a statement... Wow, just wow... You talk as if sports don't take any effort or practice to be good at and yet trying to figure out a few button configurations on a game controller seem to make you want to have a seizure. There's so much irony in this whole statement that I think it's literally suffocating me...
 

Big-Cat

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Weird and impractical? Yes. Hard and frustrating? Only if your gameplay revolves around Shoryuken on every wakeup and Hadoken spam. Same for Akuma's Raging Demon.

Why is SF IV even brought up here? There's an entire thread to bash on that SmashChu, and an entire thread for you not to Kuma.
If I went back to a controller, I could pull the Ultra with no problems, but once you get the motion down, it's easy.

Anyway, I'd love to see SmashChu in that thread. I'd keep away topics on other fighters and gameplay so this can go back to character discussion as usual.
 

NeverFiniteX

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Pac Man and A Boy & His Blob

First I must ask all of you what you think Sakurai bases his picks on.

From the business perspective, most inclusions could be popular characters that will increase sales for their newest releases. Characters that people recognize without being too much into gaming. How many of you knew who Marth was before Smash? For that matter the Ice Climbers, Pit, or Rob? These characters may not be as Nintendo Popular as Mario or Link, but they assisted the company at one time or another.

For a character like Pit, we see that Smash was drawing from the virtual console concept (Which someone else mentioned earlier on in this thread).

The exception to this is that Pac Man is indeed a Third Party Character and although he was very iconic, we would have to recognize his ties to Nintendo overal. How does he contribute?

Shino
How popular is A Boy and His Blob? I honestly haven't the slightest idea of who this character is, so I don't think I can comment at all.
 

Fatmanonice

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I think that Sakurai simply goes with what he likes and what can be practically done in Smash Bros. I really don't think he thinks of the business prospects of it and things like Fire Emblem going international and the strong interest in seeing Kid Icarus revived were not intended and merely coinicidences of the respective characters being put in Smash Bros.

A Boy and his Blob is about as obscure as you can get when it comes to third party choices for Smash Bros. It started off as an NES game and had a Gameboy title. Just recently though, it was given an update (has it come out yet?) on Wiiware. Basically, the game is about a boy who has a blob that can change into different things depending on what kind of jellybeans you feed him. For example, if you give him banana jellybeans, he turns into a monkey wrench.
 

Arcadenik

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Kuma, I do not want the game to be too complex like Street Fighter II. Smashchu, I do not want the game to be too simple like Wii Sports. Sakurai knows what he is doing. That's why all three Smash games are successful and are some of Nintendo's best of the best games.

Edit: NeverFinite, Pac-Man was in Mario Kart Arcade GP 1 and 2. Miyamoto also made Pac-Man Vs. for the Gamecube.

Also, the retro Nintendo characters I recognized back in my "before the Internet" days were Pit, Eggplant Wizard, King Hippo, Little Mac, Glass Joe, Duck Hunt Dog, Starman, and Amazon. I didn't know anything about Balloon Fight, Ice Climber, Clu Clu Land, Excitebike, Mach Rider, Urban Champion, and especially R.O.B. The NES games I recognized instantly were Super Mario Bros. 1-3, Zelda 1-2, Mike Tyson's Punch-Out!!, Metroid, Pro Wrestling, and Duck Hunt (never played Kid Icarus 20 years ago but I still recognized Pit from that Captain N cartoon).
 

NeverFiniteX

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Solid argument bro. I think I worded that thing about Kid Icarus improperly. I meant to say that his inclusion did boost sales and that someone on the inside like Sakurai would be moderately aware of new projects like a new KI game for the Wii.

Perhaps FE's international popularity was a sucsess because of Smash in general. Considering that Nintendo has popularity of certain Video Games specific to Japan, it might be possible that Marth and Roy were intended only for Japan. Was that actually what happened? I'm sure I've heard this somewhere before.

Yeah, I was a bit Iffy about Boy/Blob, but I felt that my arguments and the one going on between Kuma and Chu were distracting people from some of the character involvements. Also Shino was just blatently ignored.

I'm very glad to hear your input.
 

Thrillhouse-vh.

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Perhaps FE's international popularity was a sucsess because of Smash in general. Considering that Nintendo has popularity of certain Video Games specific to Japan, it might be possible that Marth and Roy were intended only for Japan. Was that actually what happened? I'm sure I've heard this somewhere before.
Yes, it was. The original Smash was originally just planned for Japanese release and got only mediocre press. When American reporters for magazines overseas saw Smash there was all kinds of hype about such a game existing on this side that it was released over here.
 

Fatmanonice

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Solid argument bro. I think I worded that thing about Kid Icarus improperly. I meant to say that his inclusion did boost sales and that someone on the inside like Sakurai would be moderately aware of new projects like a new KI game for the Wii.

Perhaps FE's international popularity was a sucsess because of Smash in general. Considering that Nintendo has popularity of certain Video Games specific to Japan, it might be possible that Marth and Roy were intended only for Japan. Was that actually what happened? I'm sure I've heard this somewhere before.
As I said earlier, Sakurai's deal for Pit was that he was going to decide whether or not to put him in the next Smash Bros based on how well the GBA re-release of Kid Icarus did. Out of the 26 games in the "Famicom series", Kid Icarus sold the worst by several thousand copies. Despite this, Sakurai still decided to make Pit playable anyways.

Regarding Fire Emblem, Nintendo of America didn't want Marth or Roy in the NA release of Melee because they were virtually unknown to American audiences and they wanted two other characters to replace them instead. In response, Sakurai said that it was stupid to release multiple versions of the game and went ahead with it.

Putting both of these stories into consideration, I believe that Sakurai is a very biased man. :laugh: The fans may have some influence on what he choses but I think he mainly goes off his own wants for the game. In all honesty, I think Sonic has been the only exception of this which would explain why he wasn't even added until the Summer of 2007, just a few months before Brawl went Gold. (For those that don't know what that means, it basically means a complete playable version of the game with only some debugging left before it's released.)
 

gantrain05

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all i have to say is that a boy and his blob was one freaking fun game for the NES and i completely forgot about it until it was brought up just now lol. A boy and his Blob for SSB4!!!!
 

Arcadenik

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Which is good. Sakurai's biased choices make us realize that the game is not always going to have the most popular characters. There will be a few unexpected choices in the roster. Although I must admit that most of the newcomers in Melee were unexpected to me. Peach, Zelda, Sheik, Ice Climbers, Marth, Roy, Mr. Game & Watch, Falco, Pichu, Young Link, and Dr. Mario. Funny how the only characters I actually expected to get in were Bowser, Mewtwo, and Ganondorf. I didn't understand why Diddy Kong, Wario, Pit, Meowth, and King Dedede did not get in the roster but now they are all in Brawl (except for Meowth, I am still hoping for him). In Brawl, the unexpected characters in my eyes were Snake, Zero Suit Samus, Pokemon Trainer, Olimar, R.O.B., Lucas, and Wolf (I didn't understand why Fox got two clones instead of a new character like Krystal). Also, I can't exactly say Sonic was unexpected because after Snake was confirmed, Sonic was practically a shoe-in. Adding a few unexpected characters in a roster with a bunch of popular characters make for an interesting roster than a generic all-popular roster.
 

NeverFiniteX

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Lol, its funny how I word things in my mind and when I look at what I post later, I didn't really convey what I meant. I was actually agreeing with you on the whole Pit ordeal. Sakurai's state of mind can be a bit irritating at times seeing as KI was an unpopular release and that there are several other characters in the Nintendo franchise that are just as if not more worthy than pit (a Shout out to Toise). I'm not a fan of Pit because of how spammy he is, thats why many of you won't see me advocating his return with the exception that he gets Nerfed. It all goes back to my theory that some characters get awesome movesets because they wouldn't be recognized otherwise, but thats a VERY opinionated theory yet again.

FE, yep it worked well in the long run, now we have characters that get two from their franchise unlike some other characters (Sonic or better yet, C.Falcon)

Theres some knowledge that makes sense, probably why Sonic's moveset sucks major. This frustrates me because now people are gonna hate on Sonic even more. Meanwhile, Snake, a character with even less of a cartoony design, can bask in the glory of Top Teir. The only thing I credit Snake for is openning Third Party avenues for Megaman and others. Opinions, opinions.
 

Big-Cat

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Regarding Fire Emblem, Nintendo of America didn't want Marth or Roy in the NA release of Melee because they were virtually unknown to American audiences and they wanted two other characters to replace them instead. In response, Sakurai said that it was stupid to release multiple versions of the game and went ahead with it.
I thought Marth and Roy stayed in because the testers over at NOA liked the characters enough to keep them in.
 

Thrillhouse-vh.

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Meanwhile, Snake, a character with even less of a cartoony design, can bask in the glory of Top Teir.
I'd say the juxtaposition of Snake's design and "serious" moveset alongside the "cartoony" characters works very well in his favor. Also, Snake keeps some Metal Gear humor with his character and so many injokes he is hilarious.
 

Fatmanonice

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Lol, its funny how I word things in my mind and when I look at what I post later, I didn't really convey what I meant. I was actually agreeing with you on the whole Pit ordeal. Sakurai's state of mind can be a bit irritating at times seeing as KI was an unpopular release and that there are several other characters in the Nintendo franchise that are just as if not more worthy than pit (a Shout out to Toise). I'm not a fan of Pit because of how spammy he is, thats why many of you won't see me advocating his return with the exception that he gets Nerfed. It all goes back to my theory that some characters get awesome movesets because they wouldn't be recognized otherwise, but thats a VERY opinionated theory yet again.
Actually, I posted the information that I did in order to support the point that Sakurai kind of goes by his own standards when choosing characters. I mean, Sakurai was impressed by Kid Icarus being the worst selling of the Famicom GBA re-releases while I imagine that most people would be confused as all get-out by this (including me).

Despite Pit's spammy arrows, I'd actually say that he's one of the most balanced characters in Brawl. He has a great recovery but it can be reasonably countered. He has great options out of his throws and when his tilts connect but his kills are harder to come by. His smash attacks and aerials are pretty balanced too as far as I'm concerned. His arrows are by far his biggest strength but, as I said, they're reasonably off set by his set of weaknesses.

@ KumaOso:

I don't remember the full story but I'm pretty sure it was one of the regions who wanted new characters instead of Marth and Roy. Maybe it was Europe... I should probably try to dig up the article again sometime.
 

NeverFiniteX

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I might not be so critical of Snake's inclusion if it didn't match up with my theory. Although he is well known (unlike my theory) Snake is seriously overpowered (like my theory). His projectiles work well enough, but then on top of it, all his melee attacks deal like 15% damage (Samus hardly dishes out that much and she has a power suit!). I agree that his participation is humorous, even his first appearance was a shocker in a hysterical sense. It was so obnoxiously absurd that you just had to laugh.

Pit is also pretty strong and his moves are hard to predict, its hard to say if thats good or bad overall. I haven't quite played against competative Pit players, I just know that the casual players who use him can be rather annoying (don't get me started on the CPU's). Lol, couldn't they have made Pit's Toga just a shred bit longer?
("You can't defeat me!" ....uh, your junk is showin bro)


Its pretty funny some of the movesets that are given to these WTF characters, I would have thoroughly enjoyed participating in the development of such features.
 
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A Boy and his Blob is about as obscure as you can get when it comes to third party choices for Smash Bros. It started off as an NES game and had a Gameboy title. Just recently though, it was given an update (has it come out yet?) on Wiiware. Basically, the game is about a boy who has a blob that can change into different things depending on what kind of jellybeans you feed him. For example, if you give him banana jellybeans, he turns into a monkey wrench.
****, I thought it was first person, Never mind then >.>

@Never
Snake has one glaring flaw the other two S teirs do not. He sucks in the air, so i wouldn't say overpowered, but he is definetly good (espicially Ally)

Metaknigth and DDD is where the over-powered's at...Let's make everyone equal next time around >.>.
 

Thirdkoopa

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@Koops: All the Wario characters have the same issue of not having many (or any) "obvious" moves compared to people like Mario or Link. The flipside to this is that Wario himself DOES have obvious moves that mostly went ignored in Brawl. So apparently making stuff up for this series isn't a big deal.

Also I said Syrup DOESN'T have a theme problem (same as the entire WarioWare cast). Chances are a moveset from her would involve magical treasures, wacky inventions, bombs with skulls on them, and her FS would probably be based off of this. Maybe she'd get Wario's Coin Toss move too. Even if Sakurai didn't care to look at the source he can still think up something pirate-y (or something strange like Sheik using the Vampire Killer).
Interesting. I'm still curious on who would get in first...Probably Mona or Syrup If they get one. Tho I wouldn't mind Jimmy T Either considering I use him in the WarioWare games.


Arcadenik said:
Also, Pac-Man is the only candidate to represent Namco.
Pretty much. It's just on whether Namco cares enough to even ask (Or Vice-Versa)

First I must ask all of you what you think Sakurai bases his picks on.
Don't really have an accurate answer for that, as I could say that Lucas was picked for being the only logical 2nd mother rep to the series, but he was also about to boot ness in place of lucas in Melee (And apparently Smash 64)
 

ToiseOfChoice

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Bunching these two quotes together since they're pretty relevant:

I can understand the complaints, but the sales (which we all love to use as reasons) aren't very different. Melee sold 7.9 million, Brawl has sold 8.4 million. Thats abput 500,000 more copies for Brawl (I'm willing to guess the 874,000 Brawl sold on launch day [this sales day would cover the difference n sales between the two games] were mostly the fans of the series, lovers of melee, or the random nintendo fanboys.

But Brawl has the huge success of an impressivly selling prequel, while Melee sold mostly on it's on merits. SSB sold 4.5, for the record.

So yes Brawl has sold more, and is indeed a popular game (I won't discredit it's success), but I was siply trying to point out that despite it's suppossed glarign flaws, melee was able to sell extrmely well, even compared to Brawl.
Okay, people need to keep in mind several things:

1. The number of Wiis sold absolutely dwarfs the number of Gamecubes that were sold.
2. Brawl had a lot more hype. Brawl had the dojo which had daily updates five times a week in six different languages. Brawl was promoted by Nintendo from May 2006 to June 2008. Melee was sort of promoted from July 2001 to February 2002.
3. Brawl had online which greatly increased its appeal.
Shino you might wanna double check your numbers.

Anyway the Wii has so far outsold GameCube by roughly 2:1. Let's look at the difference between certain GameCube games and their respective sequels on the Wii:

Metroid Prime -------- 2.83m
Metroid Prime 2 ------ 1.29m

Metroid Prime 3 ------ 1.54m

Zelda: Wind Waker ---- 4.55m
Zelda: TP [GC] ------- 1.56m

Zelda: TP [Wii] ------ 5.36m
Both TP versions ----- 6.92m


Super Mario Sunshine - 6.28m
Super Mario Galaxy --- 8.20m

Smash Bros. Melee ---- 7.08m
Smash Bros. Brawl ---- 8.79m


None of these titles come close to the 2:1 ratio that the systems themselves have, despite them all being more accessible to new players. So even though the Wii is moving at record pace, the games themselves aren't necessarily keeping up. That's not to say that they can't, as we can see with Mario Party and (especially) Mario Kart:

Mario Party 7 -------- 1.53m
Mario Party 8 -------- 6.74m

Mario Kart DD -------- 6.96m
Mario Kart Wii ------ 18.24m


The first four series (Metroid, Zelda, 3D Mario, Smash) had all been hyped very well by Nintendo. The Mario Party games had almost no hype. The Mario Kart games had a decent amount of hype but not on the same level as the first four. Needless to say, hype doesn't affect lifetime sales (although it definitely affects the first few weeks, but we're not worried about that).

Keep in that the difference between Melee and Brawl is not nearly as large as it was between 64 and Melee. I don't know if most of you remember 64 that well but there really wasn't a whole lot of content in the game, at least in comparison to Melee.


Now the whole point of the original statement (somewhere in this thread) is basically to say that yes, Melee was an amazing game, but Brawl was decidedly better. Considering how well both games sold, the next game has a very high standard to reach.

Last thing to mention for Fatman: online isn't a very big deal for Wii games, particularly those with a strong emphasis on local multiplayer. On the other hand, it doesn't help that Brawl's online is pretty unstable, especially compared to something like Mario Kart.



I never said Geno was as important as Sonic, I said his post game situation when it comes to fans still wanting him in the game despite it being released sometime ago is extremelly similar. With Sonic, you had people believing there was actually a way to unlock him by doing something that was retardedly hard and you not only had that with Geno but you've had a decent number of people who have gone out of their way to put him in the game by hacking it.
There's a pretty big difference between "a very reputable magazine said a gaming icon is in Smash" versus "a couple of people on the internet are trying to hack a semi-obscure character into Smash." Especially with all the other characters people are trying to hack into the game.

We've been discussing Geno for a while though and I know how much he means to you, so I won't badger you about it anymore (that and we're kinda going in circles). I will say that I admire how much hope you have for him in light of his rather crummy situation.


----------------------------------------


Kuma asks for Proof and this is what he gets in response.
Kuma asked me for testimonies from a wide variety of people to prove that the average person prefers Brawl's physics to Melee. My options were:

A) Make a massive post of quotes from the internet, snippets from professional reviews, and opinions from random people in real life, then hope he reads them all and believes them,

or

B) Tell him to do it himself.

Considering he'd learn a lot more if it wasn't coming through me AND I already know what people think, there's absolutely no reason I should be doing his homework. If he wants to know how to make people happy, he can figure it out himself.


So when you use examples from your own perspective its ok, but when I do it, I'm closed minded.

...

You can't just spew out reasons why this or that thing is wrong or right without giving proof, facts, or qoutes; the examples you use will inevitably remain biased because they are from your own experiences or observations. The reason I called you a douche that is because of what you said to Kuma, which has been a constant throughout this thread, you say something and don't back it up properly .
Your examples are stories about how you and all your friends are patient enough to deal with complex controls, usually followed with something about how if people can't handle it, they shouldn't be playing (as if less people playing games is a good thing).

My examples are a combination of recurring complaints from discussions on the subject, first-hand experience with people who DON'T have the patience for that kind of stuff, and well, common sense (if there's two methods to doing the same task, people always prefer the easier one).

Have you asked people if they preferred Street Fighter's button combinations over Smash's to use special moves? Have you looked around to hear people's responses to that little walljumping section in Super Metroid? Don't even respond to this paragraph, just go out and do those two things. You don't even have to leave SmashBoards or even this thread for those two specifically.


Its a wonder that people give you credit for what you say with this reoccurance. Its all good because you're just some random guy and your opinion doesn't matter overall; it didn't matter for 64,Melee, or Brawl. The only opinion that really matters is Sakurai's since he is the head of the franchise (for now).
If that's what you wanna believe, go for it.

The things I advocate in this thread are apparently too foreign for you to comprehend. You don't know about the importance of "loving the low end." You don't know what a blue ocean is (though I haven't used the term specifically). You definitely don't seem to be listening to what Sakurai, Iwata, and Miyamoto have been saying about games in general for the last three years (or in Sakurai's case, since Kirby's Dream Land).

No one's asking you to understand this stuff, probably because most people here don't understand it themselves. But if explaining this stuff just sends you into a fit, then I'll save myself the trouble of responding to you.


(*Waits for teh lash. At least you can rest easy knowing that you have followers like Chu and Exdeath, right?)
Oh you.










Wait a minute...

Pieman likes Naruto?
 
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