[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[ToiseOfChoice]

Smash's training mode can be enhanced by giving the dummies similar condition settings and those exclusive to Smash like air doding when you practice air juggles.

This isn't directly related to this, but it somehow reminded me that the online waiting room should work just like training mode (IE practice against CPU instead of Sandbag).

You're saying multiplayer games should be fun right off the bat in order to encourage everyone to play them, but how do you propose to do this without having a crutch like auto-recovery put into the game? I understand that this concept is like the Super Guide, but I'm not sure if Smash is the place for such a thing.

...

I believe that Smash is one of those games that will be for the hardcore. I'm not talking crazy hard here, but fighting games, even ones like Smash, are not really for people playing videogames for the first time. However, you could say to an extent that Smash is like an introduction to fighting games.

Every place is the right place for such a thing. All games should strive for that timelessness where every person is eager to give it a try and nobody loses interest. That's Nintendo's entire MO in a nutshell.

Anyway, adding an auto-recovery isn't that big a deal. The game can tell the difference between when you've tried to recover and when you just fall like an idiot, all it has to do is fly you back to the stage if it recognizes you fell. It's not much different than being P2 in SSE, you can still die by being launched in any direction.

Because Mother has no true popular gigantic boss to use?

It's a matter of "why use Porky?" If he wanted a gigantic boss specifically, he could've used a King Dodongo or Heavy Lobster or whatever. If he wanted a Mother series boss specifically, he could've whipped up a giant Belch or the Magicant Dragon or something smaller like a Starman.

But he picked Porky, a character with roughly the same relevance to his series that Ridley has to Metroid. It just stands out too much to be considered something of a throwaway like Petey or Rayquaza.

Actually; One of the people from what I recall right on the dev team suggested Dr.Mario. We can't be totally sure that It's just sakurai (Asides from 3rd Parties, Pokemon, and possibly FE) but from what it seems like it is.

No, the Dr. Mario thing was a suggestion from a fan that he liked. And he's the only one choosing for Pokemon and FE.

Regarding Pokemon, you do have characters that have significance. Pikachu has his own games and, of course, has had major roles in the manga, anime, and movies. The Pokemon Trainer is the leading character of all of the above. Lucario had his own movie and has played a major role in some of the spinoff games. With all this being said, yes, all Jigglypuff has is popularity and that franchise isn't different from the others.

No, Pokemon IS different from the others. It's in the same boat as Fire Emblem. Pikachu and Red are the faces of Pokemon, Marth is the face of FE. Everyone else added for both these series were relevant at the time of their inclusion. Roy and Ike are both main characters and the Pokemon we got are among the most popular (if not THE most popular) of their individual batches.

These two series have an evolving cast. There's a face for the series, but each game brings in a boatload of new faces. Every other series focuses on the same cast over and over again:

Mario is still about the Bros. rescuing Peach from Bowser.
Yoshi is still about helping Mario fight Bowser.
DK is still about the Kongs fighting K. Rool and the Kremlings to save bananas and their island.
Wario is still about Wario fighting Captain Syrup for money and exploiting his friends.
Zelda is still about Link rescuing Zelda from Ganon.
Metroid is still about Samus fighting Ridley and the Space Pirates to save the galaxy.
Kirby is still about Kirby, MK, and Dedede being jerks to each other and eventually fighting evil.
Star Fox is still about Star Fox and Star Wolf being jerks to each other and eventually fighting evil.
F-Zero is still about everyone being jerks for money and Falcon fighting Black Shadow to save the universe.


Pokemon has a different kid catching different Pokemon fighting a different evil team and winning a different league.
Fire Emblem has a different hero building a different army against a different invading kingdom.

The only one that's debatable is Mother given the strong connections between the three games storyline wise, particularly through the villains, and the fact that the series is "officially" done. But you and I aren't talking about that right now.

About Sheik, it sounds like you're splitting hairs. Shiek wasn't in TP so there's really no point in bringing the fact that she "almost was" into the debate. I could say that Geno is the only playable major Mario RPG character to show up in more than one game, and truth be told, he's the only major Mario RPG character besides Fawful to show up in more than one game but I honestly don't believe Sakurai cares about cameos/number of appearances. For example, I don't think Sakurai could have cared less that Pit was in the Gameboy version of Tetris. I don't think he cares that Toad is actually the second most reoccuring Nintendo character. Canonically, Sheik is still an NPC that was in one game. In this sense, Geno and Shiek are very similar except Geno was actually playable. Also, for the record, Tetra and Sheik are not the same character. They play similar roles but they are not the same character and should not be pooled into one character.

You're missing the part where Sheik IS Zelda. The whole alter ego thing was her first major defining trait and easily her most popular to date (funny how Sheik tied Zelda on the Melee poll). It's part of what makes her who she is. The fact that the Zelda team intended for Adult Zelda to turn into a ninja in both of her appearances so far is a testament to that.

Geno is a single character from a single spinoff game in a series with over 100 titles. He's not a part of another character like Sheik is to Zelda. He's no more important than Wart, FLUDD, Rosalina, or any of the RPG characters. He's less important than Daisy, Waluigi, Birdo, or any of those guys. He's popular with those who've heard of him, but he's not relevant to the series overall.

The bar for relevance with Mario is absurdly high, to the point that people aren't even sure whether Toad and Bowser Jr. are good enough for playability. What makes Geno special again? Love from the internet?

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

I hate double posting but I have to address this:

Training Mode and tutorials aren't necessarily fun, but they're there for you to get broken into the game.

We all want to get to the meat of the game, but if you can't even take, at most, five minutes to read the **** manual, you probably shouldn't bother playing the game.

The best games don't NEED a tutorial; the controls are so simple and the gameplay so intuitive that never once do you need to look for help somewhere else. That's part of the idea behind the Wii and the DS (swing the remote to swing the sword? anyone can figure that out in a second).

Compare Zelda for NES to TP. In the NES game you just run in stabbing enemies immediately and you figure out everything on your own whether you read the manual or not ("USE B BUTTON FOR THIS"). TP forces you to entertain villagers for like an hour before you even get to the wolf parts, and then it's another hour before you get to use your sword.

If someone loses interest in a game, it's the game's fault, not the player's. Required reading and hand-holding aren't fun, so why would the players hold the blame if it's the game that demands you do it?

 

[NeverFiniteX]

Toise
I see where you're getting at, but in the event that the game provides tutorials and guides, then it is the players fault overall. I mean, the tutorial vid is like one minute long, so its pretty insignificant as it is.

You couldn't be more wrong about how the best games don't need tutorials (then again that depends on how you define "best' in regards to a game". Your logic is spot on to the concept of the best games in regards to sales and popularity, which is a sad state for today's gamer. For games like Halo and Mario, yeah, just press a button and something happens. For popular fighting games like Tekken and Street Fighter (among other complex games) it couldn't be further from the truth. I don't know what it was like for you trying to figure out how to do a shoryuken or a tornado kick for the first time, but when me and my friends downloaded the remake Super Street Fighter II off of XBL, we all were constantly looking up the imput section. (perhaps all the moves could be listed in a Sub-Pause screen if people are so lazy as to not read the manual for the topic)

I figure that most players would want to see what each button does first and as they see the characters from the story mode introducing new moves, they will do their best to copy it ( or stumble upon it by mistake). Like I said before, there is a manual present, so the player has no excuse not to be able to learn the basics.

What do you think of Paper Mario's involvement in the next smash? Unlikely or not. You and I seem to have similar viewpoints on this concept.

Chu
Me trying to be as polite as possible after your last post, I get the feeling that you struggled with smash starting out and you fear that people who share your experiences will underappreciate importance/impact of the franchise. (oh and btw Chu, Define the "Meat" of a smash game)

Auto Recovery
Its not a terrible argument, but judging by the way you presented it, I'm not noticing much support from other players on this forum. Maybe your brother showed no mercy when he played you, I don't know (and I would rather not know) but I think that you underestimate the patience of certain bodies of people. I think that it is funny that you rag so much on Kuma for being an SF player, when you yourself have over looked some important play mechanics of the game. This isn't just a 2p game, you've got the several combinations of possibilities of players and their friends and relatives 1v1 to all four and the possibilities of having 3 CPU's as the max. How do we keep track of who's a vet and who's a novice for every single match? There's already the handicap option, the damage ratio changer, and the CPU level starts at (1) plus, if some players still aren't confident in their ability to recover, they can play a map like Luigi's Cuircut.

When you talk about this idea, Giant's description is fresh in my mind where its like the minute a novice puts the disk in their system, all sorts of MLG players are at his door, all ready to kick his/her A$$. Even then, I would expect that new players aren't entering tourneys without experience and if they are, they should learn from their mistakes instead of pointing at everyone else for their short commings. I can only hope that people are adult enough to acknowledge flaws in their strategy and study up on how to fix them. They can't go in the game with the expectation that its going to cheat them, why would the programmers waste their time with moves that either, don't execute properly or that are impossible to fathom? Yet, here we are and vet gamers think that Brawl is TOO simple and they want complexity back.

I think Kuma covered the concept of training mode pretty well, so I'll stand by his opinion over yours

 

[DekuBoy]

@Toise

Actually the Pokemon choices are very influenced by the Pokemon Company. In the Uk Offical Nintendo Magazine he said that, almost bitterly. I think he wanted Mewtwo back but the powers that be stopped him.

 

[Mowrt620]

I still think that regular brawl is the best training for me...but a tutorial would just be another add-on, what's the problem. It lets you actually get the feel for the game at first. Sure you can read the manual, but then you can actually try it out, instead of brawling right away. Tutorial is a fine idea. It wouldn't be forced tho, just a choice on the menu or something...

 

[n88]

Quick update on the poll. Changes to the site are in progress, and I want to finish them before I promote the poll on other sites. So far, this is just traffic from Smashboards. So, at 700 Votes, the standings are.....

36 Votes
-Mewtwo

35 Votes
-Ridley

34 Votes
-King K.Rool

33
-Isaac

32
31
-Little Mac

30
29
28
-Megaman

27
26
25
24
-Bowser Jr.

23
22
-Krystal
-Roy

21
20
-Samurai Goroh

19
-Individual Dixie

18
17
16
-Geno

15
-Toad
-Captain Syrup

14
-Midna
-Claus

13
-Paper Mario
-Saki

12
-Kamek
-Black Shadow

11
-Dr. Mario
-Mona
-Tingle
-Tom Nook

10
-Vaati
-Second Pokemon Trainer
-Black Knight
-Starfy

9
-Toon Zelda
-Lip

8
-Dixie as Diddy's Partner
-Sukapon
-Deoxys

7
-Rosalina
-Takamaru
-Plusle & Minun
-GS3 Protagonist

6
-Waluigi
-Wolf Link
-Meowth

5
-Kumatora
-Animal Crosser
-Ray Mk III
-Travis Touchdown
-Tabuu/Smash OC

4
-Daisy
-Baby Mario/Baby Bros
-Lyn
-Andy
-SoulCalibur Character

3
-Mach Rider
-Pichu
-Micaiah
-Another Sonic Character
-Lloyd Irving

2
-Slippy
-Jeff

1
-Funky Kong
-Ninten
-Porky

0
-Louie

Votes for Other
-22
2 of these are for Toon Ganondrorf
2 are for Ralph Kramden
The other eighteen are unknown

If you voted for OTHER on the poll, tell me who you wanted! PLEASE!

At this point, it's obvious that clear front-runners have emerged, and nobody likes Louie.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

@Toise

Actually the Pokemon choices are very influenced by the Pokemon Company. In the Uk Offical Nintendo Magazine he said that, almost bitterly. I think he wanted Mewtwo back but the powers that be stopped him.

If you're referring to the ONM interview I'm thinking of, I'm pretty sure what he actually said was basically "every company has to approve the designs I submit for the game; the Pokemon Company in particular tends to be really finicky about them." If I'm wrong and you've got the source on-hand, lemme know.

Of course he also needs the rights to even use the characters, but that question was about the designs specifically. Pretty sure Mewtwo was still a victim of time restrictions. I really doubt the Pokemon Company would have a beef with Mewtwo on top of everyone else if Sakurai allowed it (similarly, I really doubt IS would've been unhappy with Roy alongside Marth and Ike).

Anyway, the entire point of the whole "Sakurai's the one choosing" bit was to say that he isn't obligated to include any specific character by anyone at Nintendo. He may have gotten suggestions for certain characters and he may have been denied some, but never was a character added against his wishes.

Toise
I see where you're getting at, but in the event that the game provides tutorials and guides, then it is the players fault overall. I mean, the tutorial vid is like one minute long, so its pretty insignificant as it is.

No, it is the game's fault entirely. The game and the game's maker are the ones that need the player, not the other way around. If tutorials turn people off from playing the game, then the tutorials need to go. It's a very simple concept.

You couldn't be more wrong about how the best games need tutorials (then again that depends on how you define "best' in regards to a game". Your logic is spot on to the concept of the best games in regards to sales and popularity, which is a sad state for today's gamer. For games like Halo and Mario, yeah, just press a button and something happens. For popular games games like Tekken and Street Fighter (among other complex games) it couldn't be further from the truth.

"Today's gamer" is a pawn deluded by companies like Activision and EA into thinking they're special. But we're not talking about that right now.

The best games ARE the ones that are the most popular and best-selling because these games are bringing more people into gaming. They pull that off by being easy to pick up yet deep enough to keep people interested.

If a game has a tutorial, it means either A) the game is too difficult to pick up and play (which means the game is asking too much right away), or B) the developers think players are too ******** to figure things out (in the case of Twilight Princess).

Either way, tutorials are nobody's friend. Vets get a lesson on stuff they already know and new players end up spending more time reading than getting their feet wet. A well-designed game has you figuring out everything you need to know just by screwing around.

I don't know what it was like for you trying to figure out how to do a shoryuken or a tornado kick for the first time, but when me and my friends downloaded the remake Super Street Fighter II off of XBL, we all were constantly looking up the imput section. (perhaps all the moves could be listed in a Sub-Pause screen if people are so lazy as to not read the manual for the topic)

Did you enjoy looking up how to play the game? Did you like having to look up how to play the game instead of just being able to play it uninterrupted?

I remember playing the original SF2 on the SNES with my friends. Most of our time was spent trying to figure out how to consistently pull off the cool moves (since we didn't have the manual and there was nowhere else to turn to). We never got the hang of more than a few of them.

The game was fun for about one afternoon, then we ended up playing Mario Kart for several years. Funny how that worked out.

I figure that most players would want to see what each button does first and as they see the characters from the story mode introducing new moves, they will do their best to copy it ( or stumble upon it by mistake). Like I said before, there is a manual present, so the player has no excuse not to be able to learn the basics.

You misunderstand people then. People would prefer a simpler way of doing the exact same thing than a more complicated one.

Let's take something familar:

Method #1

Method #2

Same move, but different inputs. Which method do you think people would prefer?


Alternatively, let's pretend this isn't a fighting game. If you're a cool person, you've played at least one Castlevania game in your lifetime. In the modern games (which play similarly to 2D Metroid), you eventually get a High Jump move that launches you very, very high into the air. You can repeat this technique over and over again and it's required you do so at various parts of each game it appears in.

This is how it's used in Symphony of the Night, same as Street Fighter. Neither the game nor the instruction manual tell you how to use this (though you technically don't need it until you get to Richter mode).

This is how it's used in Circle of the Moon, same as Smash Bros. When you get this move, the game has a little window pop up with a short sentence and a small picture telling you what it does and how to do it. The menu in-game lets you see it again whenever you want.

Now keep in mind you're often required to repeatedly use this move in a short period of time in several places. Which method would you prefer?

What do you think of Paper Mario's involvement in the next smash? Unlikely or not. You and I seem to have similar viewpoints on this concept.

Short answer: zero. Long answer only by demand, this post is long enough as it is.


Last thing I'll mention is that most people in this thread on these boards on the internet everywhere typically think of things from their own perspective only. Most game makers only make games that they want to make, designing them the way they want to play them.

Sakurai does not do this. This is a man who is very skilled at video games. But he wants to make games that anyone can play. He said so himself.

You won't find very many people here who understand the importance of making games for everyone. Probably just Chu and I. Everyone else will either be disinterested or hostile to any idea that simplifies the game further, despite the fact that it's the direction Smash (and Nintendo in general) is headed in. Chu occasionally hints at why this is the case, but no one here seems interested. Oh well.


edit @n88: Louie rules, son

 

[n88]

@Toise

So far as I can tell, Chu does not care about making Smash for everyone. He cares about making it for everyone except competitives. Admittedly, this is closer to everyone than most people on this site, who want it to target competitives. But it still excludes a large group.

That being said, I'm fine with this auto-recover idea that came up, as long as it can be turned off, and doesn't rescue people from actual KO's.

[RANDOM THOUGHT]And on the note of Sakurai being skilled at video games, I remermber reading somewhere that he could play three characters at once via three Gamecube controllers spread out on his lap, keyboard style.[/RANDOM THOUGHT]

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Out of fairness, the competitive scene is really, really tiny compared to the Brawl userbase. Even if we were to assume that every account on SmashBoards represented one competitive player, it'd still make up less than 1% of the entire fanbase. Plus with stuff like Brawl+ and all the importing of content, I'm sure Sakurai has even less to worry about. The competitive scene will apparently take care of itself either way.

As for Chu, $5 says it's backlash against listening to some of the rather selfish demands some competitive players make regarding stuff like physics. I'm curious to hear what specifically he has in mind for the auto-recover idea, but if I had to guess it'd be very similar to being P2 in SSE (where knockback can kill you, but falling can't).


Oh yeah, GDC 2008. Too bad there weren't any pictures.

 

[Mario the Jumpman]

Who do you guys think should rep SC if there is to be one? I believe Ivy should NOT represent it, for obvious reasons.

And n88, can you add Glass Joe to your poll, please? Thank you!

 

[Pieman0920]

I think its pretty clear that Mewtwo wasn't a victim of time restriction in the end, but could have theoretically been at a earlier stage. What I mean by that is given the balance within the series with foru max, I think that there could have originally been a planned 5th part of the column where Mewtwo could have fit into, though this is somewhat based around the fact that other parts could have been filled up by say Dr. Mario, Roy, Toon Zelda, and what not. The problem with that idea though is that not every column would have really had a 5th part to it, but then again maybe more data was taken out of the game that we really know. In any case, I think after that was scrapped, Mewtwo was likely the only one still viable, but at that point it was a matter of either him or Jiggs, rather than any time problems. Thus while I think he may have well been intended to get in, the only time problems he would have had would have been related to other characters.

Anyways, on another note, I'd like to point out that Petey and Rayquaza aren't really throw away bosses in their own series. Petey at the time was a major reoccuring boss that was probably the most recognizable one outside of Bowser really. Rayquaza was also probably the most important Pokemon at the time if you are to believe that the team didn't have much to work with in regards to Gen 4. (Which I think is very possible given the Gen 4 Pokemon selections)

SC won't get a rep, but I'd say probably Mitsurugi, Nightmare, or Ivy is a more modest apperance..... Actually I think I'd rank the likelyhood there as Nightmare>Ivy>Mitsurugi, but then again I may be thinking more along the lines that these are minorities (villain, woman) that aren't well focused on in Smash, and that's not really a good thing....

 

[n88]

@Toise

Fair enough, I suppose. The casual fanbase is definitely the better group to please, but pleasing competitives and casuals are not mutually exclusive objectives al the time.

@Jumpman
Not really any point. Too many people have voted already, and wouldn't be able to vote again should they want him.

@Pieman
It's not impossible (SC rep, that is). Far from probable, but I wouldn't rule it out. The Soul Seires is chock full of Guest Stars; it's about the time they put a guest star somewhere notable. The best candidate would be Nightmare or Siegfried (Ideally both, in a Samus/ZSS style), with Ivy way, way down the line. Snake was pushing it, Ivy is a little over the top, if for different reasons.

 

[SmashChu]

I have to go to work soon, so I'll try to get to stuff later. Although, New Super Mario Bros Wii is coming out tomorrow :D. Who's getting it?

As for Chu, $5 says it's backlash against listening to some of the rather selfish demands some competitive players make regarding stuff like physics. I'm curious to hear what specifically he has in mind for the auto-recover idea, but if I had to guess it'd be very similar to being P2 in SSE (where knockback can kill you, but falling can't).

Yeah, the backlash is about some of the ideas, but the other reason I get snappy is becuase some of the comments that seem rediculous to me. As an example, I know tutorials are not fun, but some people claim they can be. The reaction images actually showed how I was feeling. But, no, I don't think any of you are stupid, even if it may seem to come off that way. I usually refer to what was said being a good comment or not. I have written stupid things too.

Also, I am, for the most part, a casual player. A lot of these things like advance techs aren't fun to me, as I just like the 4 player craziness of the game. But also, there is no home for me. All big Smash forums are competitive focused. Even when there is a forum just for Smash guys, tournament players come in and take it over (Brawl Central). I could go on, but I digress.

As for Auto-Recoveries, here is the scoop: When you make a name, you can choise to have recovering be manual or automatic. Manual is like Smash is now. In Autop, if you get knocked off the stage, the game will try to get you back, but it's focus is just to get you to the ledge if there is no ledge, then it just goes for the ground). Once you hit the ledge, you take control again. None of this give you control over your actions. The game will only use Up B (or Side B for Jigglypuff) to recover(so no over B for Fox), and you can't time you attack to hit players near the edge. You can also be spiked (but the game will still try to get you back if it can).

 

[n88]

@SmashChu

Sounds fine to me. (I spent most of my extra cash on my little brother's birthday. Looks like NSMBWii is gonna be on hold for me...)

Also, does ayone else really want to be able to modify the default settings? I'm really just confused as to why you can't already. It's incredibly annoying if you don't like two-minute time matches.

 

[Big-Cat]

You won't find very many people here who understand the importance of making games for everyone. Probably just Chu and I. Everyone else will either be disinterested or hostile to any idea that simplifies the game further, despite the fact that it's the direction Smash (and Nintendo in general) is headed in. Chu occasionally hints at why this is the case, but no one here seems interested. Oh well.

Look, I understand that games should be made for everyone, and by everyone, I mean everyone on the skill spectrum. I don't think appealing to the lowest common denominator is the best way to go. If I was in charge of SSB4, I would strive to find some middle ground. The people that want to play casually can learn the mechanics with a relatively low learning curve, but the competitive players can go deep into the mechanics of the game.

Let me give you an example NeverFiniteX, Shino, Snakeyes, and I have discussed in the Gameplay group: Wavedashing. Personally, I never learned how to pull it off properly because of the timing involved. After a lengthy conversation regarding it, Snakeyes suggested a technique where you can dash back and forth without having to turn around that could also be used for feints.

From there I came up with the idea of Neo Wavedashing, or NWD. For the most part this is a quick dash forward or backwards done by double tapping cr.Forward or cr.Back twice to perform the dash. At the surface, this is just a way to get into close range real fast. The noncompetitive players can stop here.

However, the competitive players can go about finding different practical uses for it and discovering special properties for the move like a back NWD gives you some invincibility at the beginning of the technique so it can be used as a quick escape plan.

@SmashChu
I'm not saying that training mode is fun. I'm just saying that you can make it useful instead of it just sitting there.

As for the auto-recovery thing, I'm starting to warm up to it. At the very least, what you've proposed gives players the initiative to learn the game eventually instead of having a crutch since they can't control themselves once they're off the edge.

 

[n88]

@Kuma

Are you aware of the concept of a weighted average? Basically, the game should be more casual-focused because more casuals play. That's not to say it should be completely devoid of competitive influence, but we don't need 5,000 ATs, Wavedashing, and the like. I would be happy if we got larger hitstun, and maybe a few other slight physics modifications, tops.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

@Pieman: "Throwaway" is probably the wrong word, but basically Petey is just one of many recurring Mario bosses and Rayquaza is just one of many legendary Pokemon. They don't have the same effect on their series that Ridley and Porky do to theirs. Not to say they're bad bosses, but they're not "storyline critical," I guess. It's like the difference between Guts Man and Proto Man or Gohma and Ganon or whatever blah blah. You get what I mean.


@n88: You got it. The game is flexible enough to allow both groups to be happy, but casuals come first. If you want a crazy Toise analogy, consider it the difference between catering to an infant or a teenager. One clearly needs more attention than the other. Also good call on the default setting business.


@Chu: I can't say I support your method since A) taking away control from the player is a huge no-no and B) I get the feeling the AI would be real crummy somehow. Consider something similar to the SSE method, probably with a predictable return to the stage rather than a free warp.


@Kuma: Bringing in new fans is more important than adjusting things in favor of existing fans. And the game is capable of setting the bar really low and really high at the same time (even if the high end isn't high enough for people like you). For the record, the NWD idea sounds pretty awful.

 

[Big-Cat]

@Kuma

Are you aware of the concept of a weighted average? Basically, the game should be more casual-focused because more casuals play. That's not to say it should be completely devoid of competitive influence, but we don't need 5,000 ATs, Wavedashing, and the like. I would be happy if we got larger hitstun, and maybe a few other slight physics modifications, tops.

Just because you have more casuals than competitives play the game doesn't mean that you should ignore the minority. I'm not proposing such an extreme like 5000 ATs. In fact, I'm highly against that. I'm all for a multiple demographic appeal. I mean, look at Fullmetal Alchemist, it's popular with both guys and girls for different reasons. Who's to say Smash can't achieve something similar.

I'm the type that's okay with different techniques as long as it's nothing to hard to learn to do, but I want to dig deep and find practical uses for it. The NWD is an example of this.

@Toise
What's wrong with NWD? Just so you know, the idea isn't finalized.

 

[n88]

@Kuma

The 5,000 part was exaggeration, but w/e. Again, I'm not saying competitives should be ignored. I'm saying that developing casual-focused stuff should come before competitive-focused. Adding in wavedashing and ATs should not be a priority, and shouldn't be done excessively.

 

[Fatmanonice]

No, Pokemon IS different from the others. It's in the same boat as Fire Emblem. Pikachu and Red are the faces of Pokemon, Marth is the face of FE. Everyone else added for both these series were relevant at the time of their inclusion. Roy and Ike are both main characters and the Pokemon we got are among the most popular (if not THE most popular) of their individual batches.

These two series have an evolving cast. There's a face for the series, but each game brings in a boatload of new faces. Every other series focuses on the same cast over and over again:

Mario is still about the Bros. rescuing Peach from Bowser.
Yoshi is still about helping Mario fight Bowser.
DK is still about the Kongs fighting K. Rool and the Kremlings to save bananas and their island.
Wario is still about Wario fighting Captain Syrup for money and exploiting his friends.
Zelda is still about Link rescuing Zelda from Ganon.
Metroid is still about Samus fighting Ridley and the Space Pirates to save the galaxy.
Kirby is still about Kirby, MK, and Dedede being jerks to each other and eventually fighting evil.
Star Fox is still about Star Fox and Star Wolf being jerks to each other and eventually fighting evil.
F-Zero is still about everyone being jerks for money and Falcon fighting Black Shadow to save the universe.


Pokemon has a different kid catching different Pokemon fighting a different evil team and winning a different league.
Fire Emblem has a different hero building a different army against a different invading kingdom.

The only one that's debatable is Mother given the strong connections between the three games storyline wise, particularly through the villains, and the fact that the series is "officially" done. But you and I aren't talking about that right now.




You're missing the part where Sheik IS Zelda. The whole alter ego thing was her first major defining trait and easily her most popular to date (funny how Sheik tied Zelda on the Melee poll). It's part of what makes her who she is. The fact that the Zelda team intended for Adult Zelda to turn into a ninja in both of her appearances so far is a testament to that.

Geno is a single character from a single spinoff game in a series with over 100 titles. He's not a part of another character like Sheik is to Zelda. He's no more important than Wart, FLUDD, Rosalina, or any of the RPG characters. He's less important than Daisy, Waluigi, Birdo, or any of those guys. He's popular with those who've heard of him, but he's not relevant to the series overall.

The bar for relevance with Mario is absurdly high, to the point that people aren't even sure whether Toad and Bowser Jr. are good enough for playability. What makes Geno special again? Love from the internet?

1. Fire Emblem and Pokemon are not the same. With Fire Emblem, Marth and Ike are the only characters that have starring roles in more than one game. Pikachu is a starring character in about 6 games at this present time with another one coming out sometime in 2010. Pokemon Trainer might as well represent the leading character of all the RPGs except the Mystery Dungeon Games. Lucario was the legendary hero in the first Pokemon Mystery Dungeon games and was one of Cynthia's pokemon. With Fire Emblem, you rarely have characters that are important in more than one game while Pokemon has a decent number of examples of it.

2. Shiek never did show up in TP so again, the point that she "was" planned is moot. Shiek is still a one hit wonder. She's not a permanent additon to Zelda. Despite being an alter ego, Shiek and Zelda could be counted as seperate characters due to their seperate personalities. With this being said, Shiek was still a one hit wonder. Of all the Zelda games, she still only appeared in one game. Saying Shiek has appeared in all the same games as Zelda is like saying Mr. L has been in all the games that Luigi has been in.

3. How are Waluigi and Daisy more important? Have they ever been playable in a canon game? Have they ever had a major role in a game that wasn't a spinoff? Have they ever had a part in a game that actually had a true objective instead of playing the same games, races, etc over and over again? Rosalina, Birdo, and Wart have never been playable in canon games either. Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Bowser have all been playable in canon games. None of the characters you listed have. In a sense, you're almost arguing that people are important simply if they appear often, even if they're essentially filler characters.

4. Love from the internet despite being turned down twice and only being playable in one game 13 years ago. I mean, if an ear-**** video on youtube can generate over a million views simply by suggesting that Geno was hidden in the game, then you still have a captive audience for this character despite his obscurity. Characters like Krystal have dropped in popularity since being turned down for Brawl despite, technically, being more likely and being easier to obtain thanks to being first party. With this being said, you have more people losing faith in more likely characters that have more appearances and more relevance in their respective franchises.

In a way, Geno reminds me of how Sonic was with Melee. People wanted to see Sonic but there was still the perception of "no third party characters allowed." When EGM printed the 2002 April Fool's prank about being able to unlock him and Tails by killing 20 or more wireframes in Cruel Melee, a lot of people ate it up to the point where EGM actually aplogized by giving out free copies of Sonic Adventure 2: Battle to the people with the best records. Sonic went against one of the biggest rules people believed was established for the Smash Bros franchise but a ton of people still wanted him. You could also look at Snake in how his only Nintendo exclusive is a crappy game on the Gameboy Color and yet he still got in despite there, obviously, other third party characters being much more relevant to Nintendo. (Megaman, anyone?)

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

@Kuma: It's not about demographics, unless you see it as people who play Smash and people who don't. There haven't been any problems with sustaining the first group, but there's always ALWAYS room for improvement with the second. That's why all the focus on casuals.

As for NWD, it's A) not very apparent how useful it is except for people building very precise combos (IE top level players) and B) if cr.Forward/Back is what I think it is, it sounds like a real pain.

You wanna know what's a good kind of AT? Footstool hopping and forced tripping. Both very clear with what they do and both very simple to execute.

You wanna know what's a bad kind of AT? Wavedashing and DACUS. Both are a pain to use at all, confusing as hell when you see them, and they only really benefit the top level of players.


@Fatman: I'll get back to you later tonight/tomorrow morning.

 

[n88]

@Fatman

Waluigi and Daisy are more important because they're recurring characters. Most people con't really care if Mario Kart is canon or not. They still play and love Mario Kart, and the characters in it.

 

[Big-Cat]

@Kuma: It's not about demographics, unless you see it as people who play Smash and people who don't. There haven't been any problems with sustaining the first group, but there's always ALWAYS room for improvement with the second. That's why all the focus on casuals.

There might not be any problems keeping the current base now, but there's no guarantee they'll stay because they may get sick of the changes that can make the game too easy.

As for NWD, it's A) not very apparent how useful it is except for people building very precise combos (IE top level players) and B) if cr.Forward/Back is what I think it is, it sounds like a real pain.

The uses may not be apparent to you, but who's to say others won't see the uses. I already explained how casuals can use it to get in fast, but I should've mentioned the evasive purposes of it.

It may sound like a pain, but go ahead and try the input before knocking it off.

You wanna know what's a bad kind of AT? Wavedashing and DACUS. Both are a pain to use at all, confusing as hell when you see them, and they only really benefit the top level of players.

And that's the kind of thing I'm not for. I don't want ATs like Wavedashing and DACUS.

Let me bring up another idea and see what you think of it: Air Tethers.
This is, in a sense, like air throws from other fighters, but since that would be broken in Smash, here's a different take on it. This technique is available to any character that has a grab tether like Link and Samus. When in you and someone else is in the air, you can use your, for example, Hookshot to reel the opponent into you and perform an attack that can very well be the finishing move. Remember, though that the air tether can be air dodged so it's avoidable.

 

[Fatmanonice]

@Fatman

Waluigi and Daisy are more important because they're recurring characters. Most people con't really care if Mario Kart is canon or not. They still play and love Mario Kart, and the characters in it.

I disagree because their only purpose is to give more playable characters in the spinoffs. Waluigi was created to be Wario's partner in Mario Tennis. Daisy was brought back to be Luigi's answer to Mario's Peach but even that didn't last until the Gamecube era. They've never really added anything to the franchise at anytime. Under this arguement, pretty much every generic Mario enemy from goombas to cheep-cheeps to koopas are important because "they're reoccuring characters." Dry bones has been playable in multiple Mario spinoffs, is he important? Blooper was playable in Mario Party 7, is he important? By siding with this arguement, you essentially open a Pandora's Box where the standards are virtually reduced to nothing and pretty much anyone can get in if they've appeared in more than one game.

 

[Mowrt620]

It doesn't matter if a character is only in one game, they can still be important.

 

[n88]

@Fatman

Maybe I should clarify. It's not all about the appearances. It's about the exposure. Most people who bought Mario Kart Wii will not know who Geno is. But they will meet Daisy, Waluigi, and Funky Kong. Daisy and Waluigi have gained a decent bit of popularity because of these appearances. People view them as important, even if they're really not, which, IMO, makes them important.

And didn't you make some point about how Toad was the second most recurring Nintendo character a little while ago? (Honest question. I don't remember if it was you)

 

[Pieman0920]

@Pieman: "Throwaway" is probably the wrong word, but basically Petey is just one of many recurring Mario bosses and Rayquaza is just one of many legendary Pokemon. They don't have the same effect on their series that Ridley and Porky do to theirs. Not to say they're bad bosses, but they're not "storyline critical," I guess. It's like the difference between Guts Man and Proto Man or Gohma and Ganon or whatever blah blah. You get what I mean.

There are actually very few reoccuring Mario bosses, especially since SM64. The only other Mario boss that I think could even be compared to Petey is King Boo. And as I said, at the time, Rayquaza was the most important legendary Pokemon. I suppose that there is a difference between them and Ridley/Porkey, but they were still very important bosses to their series. (Though in both cases, there was a larger "villain: in the form of Bowser and Mewtwo, and at the time of SSE's conception, its likely that both may have been considered to be in, even if in the end Mewtwo got cut)

 

[Fatmanonice]

Yes, Toad is Nintendo's second most reocurring character but he's an NPC in most of his appearances and I'm very hard pressed to call him important as his last major roles were nearly 20 years ago. I think it's better to be important in one game and never show up again than to be important in one or two games but then be unimportant in dozens of others.

When it comes to Mario characters, I think Bowser Jr is the only reasonable choice at this point although I don't really support the idea. I categorize Geno as a Mario character but, due to his copyright, I don't believe he follows the same standards as the other Mario characters. He's like Vaati in how he was created by a third party but can't fully be called "third party" because he's only been part of a first party franchise. He's third party but, obviously, he's not suited to represent Square Enix by himself nor should he be expected to in the same sense that Vaati shouldn't be expected to represent Capcom if he were added. In a way, I don't see him as being in direct "competition" with other Mario characters. As said, he's kind of an odd category because the number of examples are few and far between and, even then, the number of examples that people legitimately even care about are even smaller. In the past, I've called it Second party and a half. With that being said, I'm not arguing that Geno should get in before other Mario characters and I'm against the likes of Daisy, Waluigi, etc because of their lack of significance to the canon games. I'm saying this so people can better understand my stance on Geno and the Mario franchise in general.

Add in: To sum things up, Geno's chances can't really be judged by the chances of other characters because of his overall uniquenesss. You can't say, well, he has to get past Bowser Jr., Paper Mario, Moomoo the Angry Python, etc first because saying so would be like saying that Megaman has to compete with Ridley to get into SSB4.

 

[Pieman0920]

There really isn't much canon in Mario games though, and Geno's not really part of it either, since he has only showed up in spinoff games. He was important in the plot of one of those yes, but Waluigi's had important roles in his spin off games sometimes. (Like that DDR Mario game, and Mario Power Tennis)

 

[Fatmanonice]

I think it's widely agreed that the platformers and RPGs are the "canon" games in the Mario franchise. It's like with Pokemon, the RPGs are the ones that are considered canon even if there's nothing that truly connects them aside from reoccuring characters and similar play mechnaics. I'm still hard pressed to call DDR's story genuine because, overall, it's really no different than the story of the Mario Party games where its "hey, let's do a bunch of stuff until we reach the end." It's like with Kirby's Avalanche, there's technically a plot but it really doesn't make a lot of sense and essentially you are just doing the same matches but with increased difficulty and speed until you finally defeat King Dedede.

 

[Pieman0920]

While I'll say that the RPG games are more story oriented, that doesn't really make them any more canon than the other spin off games. What happens in the RPGs, like the party, racing, or sports games doesn't seem to effect the main story of the platforming games. Now I admit there really isn't much of a story in said games, but that still doesn't change the fact that the RPGs don't really effect them. Heck, the only spin off I would truly say is canon is Luigi's Mansion.

 

[NeverFiniteX]

@ Toise

No, it is the game's fault entirely. The game and the game's maker are the ones that need the player, not the other way around. If tutorials turn people off from playing the game, then the tutorials need to go. It's a very simple concept.

Wow, Gamers need the developers to be able to play the games, they have the demand, designers have the product, but I see where your thinking stems from.

Seeing as smash itself is a one direction + one button (except for maybe marth's side + B) I don't think that it is too complicated for gamers to handle, I could be wrong, but thats why the tutorial only needs to be a minute long (plus its not the first thing you will see when you play the game anyways). Tutorials have been in smash games since the first one, I've never met anyone who said "Sweet loving, theres that tutorial again, I hate this game now"

The best games ARE the ones that are the most popular and best-selling because these games are bringing more people into gaming. They pull that off by being easy to pick up yet deep enough to keep people interested.

If a game has a tutorial, it means either A) the game is too difficult to pick up and play (which means the game is asking too much right away), or B) the developers think players are too ******** to figure things out (in the case of Twilight Princess).

Either way, tutorials are nobody's friend. Vets get a lesson on stuff they already know and new players end up spending more time reading than getting their feet wet. A well-designed game has you figuring out everything you need to know just by screwing around.

Again, nobody's forcing smash players to watch these tutorials, they are found within the menu or they show up if the player hasn't pressed anything in the start screen. You are just repeating what I said before about messing around.

All gamers aren't 20 year old college students who have been playing games since they were in their mothers' wombs, much of the market are six year old kids who like the game because its cover is shiny and colorful, (then word of mouth after their experiences). Consider also the reason that the buttons are all color coded (exceptions: Wiiremote & PS); when the player doesn't know what button to press, the color of that button hovers over the screen to remind him/her. Have you played Donkey Kong 64? Sonic Unleashed? Just because they had a training mode in the beginning, wasn't a reason for me to hate on the game, it was a glimpse of harder things to come, which is a idealistic in a sense. Or Super Metroid where there was no tutorial but it forced you into using certain moves because you needed to use them to advance, then you never forget those moves.

In Super Metroid's case, you don't even need some of the upgrades unless you are getting all the items. Easily separating the men from the boys without taking away from the game itself.

Did you enjoy looking up how to play the game? Did you like having to look up how to play the game instead of just being able to play it uninterrupted?

I remember playing the original SF2 on the SNES with my friends. Most of our time was spent trying to figure out how to consistently pull off the cool moves (since we didn't have the manual and there was nowhere else to turn to).

We never got the hang of more than a few of them.

All the combo charts were available and conveinently located in the pause screen for our leisure, and no one forced us to look at them either. My friends and I were able to pull most of the moves off in a weekend. There was no need for us to have a problem with the interruption of gaming, we all didn't know what to do and we gave each other space to figure out. I'll repeat the concept as I said it to Chu, if a vet was among us I'm sure that person would tell us how to use that move and if not, we could find out ourselves. If everybody sucks, then they can play like noobs as long as they feel like it, nobody's going to force them to play against more experienced players.

Making certain moves complicated doesn't push me away from the game (that is if you are the type that appreciates the intentions of the game), it makes me interested enought to want to find out, but still thats just people like me. All my friends and I agreed that the complicated movesets present in SF are protection against over-spamming certain moves. But if there was no chart to help us figure anything out, how would we know how to use the move? The Cpu would just beat us up with the moves that we didn't know how to execute and then it would be too frustrating to play

AS for Chu, I don't hate the idea of autorecovery, I just think that everyone can go at their own pace, no one is forcing them to be competative. Perhaps it can be an option like the handicap, Idk. But then, how would a player that doesn't know about the auto-recover know how to activate it? Complications, thus the debate over the topic.

Most game makers only make games that they want to make, designing them the way they want to play them.

Doesn't this contradict your whole notion that games should be easy for the gamer? Wouldn't the game designers make gameplay patterns that are easy to recognize?Even as you said before, the gamers don't need the designers, so wouldn't the game designers make games the way people want to play them? Perhaps I am not the only who occasionaly contradicts self.

Last thing I'll mention is that most people in this thread on these boards on the internet everywhere typically think of things from their own perspective only.

It is the designing teams that come up with these interesting gimmicks that keep the player interested in the depth of the game. I was rather impressed with the item list, sticker, trophy, assist trophy, and boss (especially) inclusions that satisfy the need for the character involvment, a different story for Isaac and Goroh, but at least they were included in some way. This is why I had somewhat of a difficult time contemplating people's extensive desire for Ridely because he was an awesome boss. Other characters would fit in nicely in certain categories as well. Its just that a game like smash has so many oppurtunities and so much to develop that they can't just please certain people, they have to focus on the design of the game as a whole. Plus they can't always keep up with the times because they must meet a certain deadline.

In that I'm pretty sure that Paper Mario 3 was released after Brawl, so all Paper Mario had was two games for Brawl to work with. At least that character has his own design and his own games unlike Geno who was a supporting character in a single spinoff. This spin off is popular and it is almost directly related to Nintendo's Mascot. In some cases Paper Mario is like Yoshi, its just he hasn't been around as long. Both Yoshi and Paper Mario borrow elements in the Mario franchise give us more detail on them specific elements in the franchise (Pieman was on the spot about RPG's). For example- Super Mario Galaxy was (as far as I know) the first 3D platformer that the toads were equipped with dialogue that developed from their personalities. In SM64, they were just creatures that were hiding from bowser and their whole mentality was "Bowser is such a douchebag for taking peach, Mario, you've got to save her!" (personally I just hit them up with hopes that they would give me a star) whereas in Paper Mario, the toads, boos, koopas and other creatures from the frachise had their own perspectives on the current circumstances due to the lives they were leading: shop keepers, children, gaurds.


I would like to hear more your perspective on why certain characters were included in Smash.

 

[Wally!]

they should give us gamertags for online play like the 360 instead of these brawl codes

 

[n88]

@Fatman

I see where you're coming from now. That's what I get for walking in on the middle of an argument.

@NeverFiniteX

There's no reason that Ridley can't be a character and a boss. Anybody remember the Final Boss of Melee's adventure mode? Five brownie points to whoever just said "A bigger version of Bowser"!

Also, your entire post just proves Toise's point about only looking at things from your own perspective.

 

[NeverFiniteX]

n88 2004
I never said that Ridley couldn't be both a boss and a character. I'm just saying that he was good as a boss and his inclusion in Brawl isn't something to be complained about, it just means that the developers gave us a glimpse of the way things might go.

I was never against the idea, I'm just saying that it was difficult for me to invision, I already gave reasons for that train of thought earlier on in this thread. All of which are reasons that are commonly argued elsewhere.

So I'm not going be moved by just being bashed on, so saying that I am single sided just because of something you think I said, it doesn't prove me right or wrong. You have to make a sound argument for me to agree. It wasn't untill (I think) the pieman explained the mechanics of Ridely to me before I agreed that Ridely should be playable.

 

[n88]

Forgive me. I thought I saw something in the post about how Ridley should have been a boss. Well, the point still stands to anyone else.

What I meant about you proving Toise right is that all your examples related directly to yourself. Generally speaking, you countered his arguments pertaining to a large number of people with a "Well, I [Insert contradiction here]" Sometimes, you just need to get a wider perspective on things, is all.

(Also, you didn't double post.)

 

[NeverFiniteX]

@n88 2004
Well, judging by the fact that I am only one person, I can only use examples of things I was involved in or that I have observed. But something that you overlooked was that I said that me and my friends were playing street fighter and we all had the same issues. So in the event that it was all of our first times playing Street Fighter, the liklihood that we all had the same experiences says something about the game's handeling.

@DekuBoy
Chu has been hating on Kuma for being a SF player and that he couldn't understand Smash because he mostly plays SF (thats just by me glancing at their arguments, I could be wrong). My argument for games like street fighter is that they are more complicated games, but they are popular nontheless. I don't understand why people say that they can't get the hang of smash when they can get the hang of SF, which is a bit harder to play.

Name of the game: You must recover.

 

[DekuBoy]

I don't understand where all the comparisons to SF came from. They're very different games but I do love Street Fighter so I forgive all of you.

Ridley's only drawback is wheter Mr. Sakurai deems him worthy of the roster. That is pretty darn good.

 

[Mario the Jumpman]

If a Smash DS is made, then the PCs I picked are Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, DK, Yoshi, Link, Zelda, Ganondorf, Toon Link, Samus, ROB, Kirby, Meta, Fox, Wolf, CF, Pikachu, Jiggs, Lucario, Meowth, Starfy, Marth, Ness, GW, Chibi-Robo, and Megaman.

Any opinions?

 

[n88]

@Jumpman

For a Smash DS, I would take the following:

Mario
Luigi
Bowser
Peach
DK
Yoshi
Wario
Link
Zelda/Sheik
Ganondorf
Samus
Pit
ROB
Kirby
Meta Knight
Olimar
Fox
Captain Falcon
Pikachu
Mewtwo
Lucario
Marth
Ness
GaW

Also, if new characters were included:

Isaac
Starfy
Little Mac