[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[Thirdkoopa]

It is a strange concept to fathom, playing as Ridely. I rather enjoyed fighting both versions of him as a boss. What I really meant was on the lines of those who want to play as some unreasonable characters like Robotnik, who would do fine as a boss (Sonic Unleashed Openning Cutscene).

Oh; Character's who just wouldn't work? Hmm...I'd like to see the Devil's Machine from mother for starters (All you earthbound fans know what I'm talking about here)

Trainer- I think with all the Pokemon Ash has had (and even given up) it might be safe to say that the originals are good for Brawl, but then ash/trainer moves on to win tournaments, strategizing his pokemon. Lol I thought that Honen would be the end of Pokemon, I've lost interest since the fourth series, although I lost interest in the TV series after the second series.

Yeah; and you can also say Lucas and his team move onto learn more attacks, but the first still stand as recognizeable with no need to change them.

Puff- I figured I would be recieved that way, its not that I just hate her character, its just that after Melee, she kind of sucked. Its not like I don't expect her to return, but I wouldn't mind if she did or didn't.

Oh; Well, she could get her moves revised. Ganondorf sure seems to not be well recieved on tier lists, but things can change as I've said. Maybe not specific moves (Howdy ness)

Japan- I think of things in a logical sense. I've looked around several forums and seen this as a pattern. So I don't know whats Japan Only or not. I'm not really for including Grey Fox or Robo2k (whatever) but if they contribute well to nintendo, I figure that they should be involved. Yeah I don't even like Mr.G&W but I understand why he's there.

...Grey fox and Robo2k aren't japan only, but back to the japan subject;

For japan only characters, there isn't really much on that that gets thrown around anyways, especially on ones that contribute a lot to nintendo (Or supporting characters to an existing series/protaginists for that matter) the only ones off the top of my head that get suggested a lot are Claus, Saki (Virtual console), Sukapon, and Roy (not 100% Sure here) Oh and Takamaru a bit, but compared to others here they aren't really requested that much. edit: forgot tingle, because technically his series is japan only.

However I can understand why adding Japan-Only characters is a questionable thing, because say If a series gets popular and nothing happens in the US, like mother 3, then people may say main lucas/marth and then want to play there games and not being able to play it in any official way. Ok, there's the fan translation I suppose, and Marth's game did get ported over on the DS, but the fear of running into that still stands and already has a bit with Ness and Lucas.

 

[Fatmanonice]

...Still, where is this about a Fire Emblem Crossover game? Cafe has peeked my interest.

I think it's a rumor that's been tossed around since the summer. Personally, I love the idea.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

Seeing as there is no way to do this conept and produce a compellign story, I'm less than excited

 

[Fatmanonice]

Seeing as there is no way to do this conept and produce a compellign story, I'm less than excited

Eh, I don't think they'd run into the same problem as they did with Final Fantasy Dissidia. That game was like a bad written fan fiction and I personally believe there was too many differences between many of the characters to really be made into a belivable story. With Fire Emblem, I think the games are more interchangable and it would be a more natural fit overall.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

Meh, We'll see when and if it happens. I'm still not as excited becuase I have never really like any of the all stars (Lords and close company) outside of Ike's Soren. Most of the lords, at least in their games, were meh to me. Maybe if I see a roster, I'd be more into it...

But getting back to smash...nah I'd rather just keep watching where TreKoops and Never's discussion goes

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Eh, I don't think they'd run into the same problem as they did with Final Fantasy Dissidia. That game was like a bad written fan fiction and I personally believe there was too many differences between many of the characters to really be made into a belivable story. With Fire Emblem, I think the games are more interchangable and it would be a more natural fit overall.

I can't really comment here since I only played a few free-plays. It could be pretty good...I wouldn't get "Unhyped" Yet.

But getting back to smash...nah I'd rather just keep watching where TreKoops and Never's discussion goes

I'm still shocked most of the people I usually end up talking with in this thread haven't even commented on my roster pic, especially considering It's going far out of my usual. (Generally questioning characters a lot)

As for that, I'm just awaiting on a reply.

 

[ScoobyCafe]

Well while you wait, I want to throw something I've been thinking about lately out there.

Watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFcm3IwC8Cc

Now I'm wondering, since some people have genuine concerns about characters like Ridley being too big for Smash or scaling down characters, like Ridley, would make them look weird, would any of you object to some sort of mode where, like in the video, big characters fight 2-3 smaller characters?

Just throwing this out there. I personally have no problem scaling Ridley down.

 

[NeverFiniteX]

Cafe

I think you guys have got me all wrong here, size is NOT my major concern. My problem is not that Ridely might be to slow or too bulky, it's pretty much what your video showed. I think a character like Ridely has so much in his arsenal that he would pwn everybody, I could be wrong. I'm not clear where your idea is going, I don't know if I can comment either. I am mostly a 1v1 person.

Edit*
Thats all it takes to convince me, a sound argument. I would still hope to see Dark Samus, I don't know THAT much about him, but copy cat samus is a circulating theme in latter Metriod games (M4 with the SAX). I also don't see him being a definite clone of Samus becuase of the way he moves.
What do you all think about inclusion of other supporting characters from metroid (seeing as the metroid was the only AT from the series) such as the Hunters?

TTK

I'll be sure to check out your roster in detail, I figured that most of them aren't ones that I am familiar with, so I wouldn't be able to do much commentary. My list was mostly a response to some of the arguments that I was noticing in the past (like who the hell cares if Knuckles is better than shadow?) and some of the concerns that have with most people's character pick.

Edit*
Your roster looks pretty solid from what I can tell. I think I mixed up your roster with someone else's, but my opinion remains the same that I can't comment on some of the characters because I don't know anything about them. Do you think you can repost it so that we can "pick it apart" persay. I can't just list the charcters that I would be concerned with because I don't know what their names are,, except for stafy... I don't know what you are thinking, then again I just think he LOOKS gay and I don't know a thing about him.

Megaman X, awesome

Felix, lol I want him in as well. I figured he could be more sword play and Issac more Psyenergy. I always thought it would be awesome to have the Djinn as a cross between pokeballs and Assist trophies. Lol now Knuckles has to be in this.

 

[Reb]

I think a character like Ridely has so much in his arsenal that he would pwn everybody...

The fact that he has so much in his arsenal means there won't be a shortage of moves, which is a good thing. The "he would pwn everybody" thing doesn't gel with me, though...I mean, they could just as easily make him bad rather than good. It seems like an overly cautious hypothetical to me. =P

EDIT: Oops, yikes, didn't see that. Sorrryyyyy.

 

[ScoobyCafe]

@NeverFiniteX

My post wasn't addressing yours, I didn't even know you and 3rdkoopa were talking about Ridley.

But about your concerns, it would be Ridley who gets owned do to his size. Even if he's scaled down to be roughly bigger than Bowser, he'd still be a big target. He'd be strong and have far reaching attacks, yes, so make much of his moves laggy. He'd be quick in the air, so make him slow on the ground. etc., etc.

Balancing him wouldn't be all that difficult, really. Though I'm sure Sakurai will screw him up somehow

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Alright Koops, you get your wish.


Your newcomers were:

Bowser Jr. - Possible
Geno - Not happening
King K. Rool - Very likely
Dixie Kong - Possible
Mona - Possible
Muddy Mole - Not happening
Mike Jones - Not happening
Sukapon - Unlikely
Mewtwo - Possible
New Pokemon - Possible
Krystal - Possible
Isaac - Very likely
Felix - Unlikely
Ridley - Very likely
Saki - Possible
Little Mac - Very likely
Starfy - Possible
Roy - Possible
Samurai Goroh - Very likely
Jody Summer - Not happening
Black Shadow - Possible
Claus - Unlikely

3rd Parties are a mixed bag, but 5 of them (6 if you count Geno) is not happening

You've got 23 newcomers (25 if you count Mewtwo and Roy), making a total roster of 64. Not happening.


Individual ones you mentioned:
Geno - Been explained to death, but basically, he has everything against him except popularity/design. Even Fatman knows this is something of a pipe dream (though I still feel that he always has a chance as an AT, which on the plus side means he can be just as overpowered as he is in SMRPG).
Jody - 3rd in line for new F-Zero character, getting three characters for one series in one game is really unlikely. Also not surprised to see Pieman still has his messed up way of appraising characters. And shame on both of you for forgetting the best chapter in the game.
Starfy - Sure. But don't add characters because "someone wanted them." We're just dudes on the internet.
Felix - Not expecting GS to have two characters to start out with, but I agree that Felix would be the one to include.
"Retro" characters - You really need to stop seeing them as "retro" characters instead of just characters. If the individual is worth adding, sure, but Muddy Mole and Mike Jones are the sort of characters people say 99% of the time because "it's a perfect WTF character!" As if initial shock value means more than having a good character. Lastly, I'm not counting on Sukapon since Sakurai keeps turning him down.


Last thing on the FE stuff: Narihiro (head honcho at IS) is really interested in an FE all-star game, preferably one that appeals to a much wider audience (which is good since FE games are very very niche right now). He's mentioned this at a developer conference call and the Iwata Sakurai Asks. Chances are, that's what we'd be getting next, since everyone on the team agrees that they want to make a new game instead of a remake.

On the subject of games to remake, there's also this:

- Masaki Tawara's (Nintendo Co., Ltd. Software Planning & Development Division,Software Planning & Development Department, Production Group No. 2, Nintendo) preference is to make another original title in the Fire Emblem series instead of going for another remake. In making a new, original title, a new challenge would be to include elements that would make it more accessible to a new audience. If he were to do another remake, it would be the Super Famicom Fire Emblem title, Fire Emblem: Akaneia Senki. It would be interesting to see how it could be updated for the DS.

- Masayuki Horikawa (Planning Div. Chief Game Designer, Intelligent Systems) would also prefer to make a new game in the Fire Emblem series. Starting on a brand-new game provides an open palette, thus giving more room for innovation. If he were to remake a title, he would choose Fire Emblem: Fūin no Tsurugi. Mr. Horikawa wants a chance to introduce Roy properly.

I'd expect FE6 before BSFE. Or better yet, FE6 with the BSFE episodes on the side.


edit: asdjfaksdf too many characters on your thing made me forget Ridley and lose count

 

[Fatmanonice]

Well while you wait, I want to throw something I've been thinking about lately out there.

Watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFcm3IwC8Cc

Now I'm wondering, since some people have genuine concerns about characters like Ridley being too big for Smash or scaling down characters, like Ridley, would make them look weird, would any of you object to some sort of mode where, like in the video, big characters fight 2-3 smaller characters?

Just throwing this out there. I personally have no problem scaling Ridley down.

That video wasn't a good example because it shows how big characters can be horrifically unbalanced when not designed right. Essentially, for most fighting games, really big characters are either A) big borderline useless punching bags or B) ZOMGWTFBBQOBYN good because of their insane range and power. My concern isn't Ridley's size, it's his range, power, and priority. Ideally, I'd want him to have about the same range as DK, the power of someone like Pit for the sake of balance, and nothing too ridicolous for his priority.

@ Toise:

I wouldn't label Geno a pipe dream. I'd label someone like Vaati or Captain Syrup as a pipe dream because, despite the fact they'd probably be cool additions, they have virtually nothing going for them. As things stand, Geno has a decent amount of appeal for a character that was only playable in one game 13 years ago and, like I said in another post, is second in hacked ALTs and PSAs only to Shadow the Hedgehog. Basically, people are going out of their way to put him into Brawl and keep him popular so you have a decently "loud" fanbase.

Granted, it's not much but, as this thread has shown, it's not an idea you can just entirely blow off because the character does have something to work with. Truth be told, I'd say that for a good number of the characters that get debated about including ones that I don't support such as Samurai Goroh, Mewtwo, and Paper Mario. Again, they have something to their name even if, at this current time, it seems completely meagre.

 

[SmashChu]

I'll get to the replies later, but first some other stuff.

One thing is that a lot of people hate Auto-Recoveries. First, it's not forced. It's simply for players who are not good at these games so they can do better. Also, it's basic and just focuses on getting to the ledge. Basically, it's Super Guide for Smash.

Now, a story. There are these two girls I know. They both play games here and there. A (rather then use their real names) plays platformers like Mario and Sonic (saw here play Super Mario Bros. Advance today at school). The other (B) plays World of Warcraft. When both played, the same thing happened: they would both struggle with the controls (attacking, jumping, attacking while jumping). Of course, the minute either feel off the ledge, they would just drop to their doom. I could tell them what to do a thousand times, but the game was to fast for them, and they couldn't do it fast enough.

The game is designed well enough to where you can do well if you fight on the ground, but recovery seems to throw brand new players for a loop. The game can be harder for some people. Most of you are probably proficient at games, so you all could grasp recovering relatively quickly. Some people can;t. This is to help them.

Cafe

I think you guys have got me all wrong here, size is NOT my major concern. My problem is not that Ridely might be to slow or too bulky, it's pretty much what your video showed. I think a character like Ridely has so much in his arsenal that he would pwn everybody, I could be wrong. I'm not clear where your idea is going, I don't know if I can comment either. I am mostly a 1v1 person.

I've played quite a bit of Tatsunoko vs Capcom (big hit with friend from college), so here is the deal.

The giant robots are actually horrible (although will be better in the US version). That guy was fighting computers, so it's obvious that they didn't do what they were suppose to. Saki had a cursor right on her and just attacked wildly.

You can beat them really easy if you spam supers. Ryu, for instance, can use his haduken beam to beat them from afar, and they can't do much about it. Characters without a beam like super (like Hurrican Polymar) have trouble, but you're fine if the other guy does have a good super.

EDIT: Now THIS is overpowered

 

[NeverFiniteX]

Whatever, this is my first list of Most likely characters (partially my ficticious wish list and partial by logic). I've listed from most likely to least likely.

Megaman
Ridely
Bowser Jr.
King K.Rool
Samurai Goroh
Mewtwo
Black Shadow
Krystal
Dixie Kong
Dark Samus
Edit* Knuckles
Issac (since there aren't any playable characters from Golden Sun in the franchise already I am well inclined to put him directly underneath Goroh if not for this fact ...I know what you're thinking, but Megaman is a no brainer)

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

@Fatman: The two things specifically that Geno has against him are relevance and ownership. He's not important at all to the series as a whole and SE gets a say in whether he shows up or not regardless. For the record, Vaati isn't very important to his series either and Syrup's only problem is a lack of specific individual moves aside from the obvious Final Smash (though movesets aren't really a problem for any character and thematically, she's perfectly fine).

Anyway, if Sakurai suddenly thinks that the devotion from a few people on the internet is good enough to contact SE and add Geno, awesome. Doesn't mean it's not wishful thinking.

 

[Thrillhouse-vh.]

This is why I don't change my wish list because of what is more likely or not, just what I like. All my characters are pipe dreams :/

EDIT: Well not ALL of them, but still I doubt Ryota or Dr. Lobe will make it in. Ever. **** you Sakurai, you can't cut out characters in my dreams.

 

[Fatmanonice]

@Fatman: The two things specifically that Geno has against him are relevance and ownership. He's not important at all to the series as a whole and SE gets a say in whether he shows up or not regardless. For the record, Vaati isn't very important to his series either and Syrup's only problem is a lack of specific individual moves aside from the obvious Final Smash (though movesets aren't really a problem for any character and thematically, she's perfectly fine).

Anyway, if Sakurai suddenly thinks that the devotion from a few people on the internet is good enough to contact SE and add Geno, awesome. Doesn't mean it's not wishful thinking.

That's the thing, it's a decently impressive number for a character that should have faded into obscurity more than a decade ago especially when you consider how his popularity rivals some of the more popular character picks for SSB4 despite being passed for both Melee and Brawl and only being in one game. Admittably, he rivals people like Krystal and Samurai Goroh despite their histories. Essentially, you have a fanbase that still cares about seeing him in Smash even after 8 years.

From what I've seen too, it doesn't take much to impress Sakurai. He said that he was going to decide to add Pit based on how well the GBA re-release of Kid Icarus did. Saleswise when compared to the other 26 games that were released with the Famicom series, it was dead last by several thousand copies.

Also, as said in the past, I don't think the liscensing would be that much of an issue considering all the connections that Nintendo has with Square Enix including how a good number of the major developers who made SMRPG now work for them via Alpha Dream. All the things are lined up, it's just whether or not they decide to do anything with it.

 

[flyinfilipino]

I'll get to the replies later, but first some other stuff.

One thing is that a lot of people hate Auto-Recoveries. First, it's not forced. It's simply for players who are not good at these games so they can do better. Also, it's basic and just focuses on getting to the ledge. Basically, it's Super Guide for Smash.

Now, a story. There are these two girls I know. They both play games here and there. A (rather then use their real names) plays platformers like Mario and Sonic (saw here play Super Mario Bros. Advance today at school). The other (B) plays World of Warcraft. When both played, the same thing happened: they would both struggle with the controls (attacking, jumping, attacking while jumping). Of course, the minute either feel off the ledge, they would just drop to their doom. I could tell them what to do a thousand times, but the game was to fast for them, and they couldn't do it fast enough.

The game is designed well enough to where you can do well if you fight on the ground, but recovery seems to throw brand new players for a loop. The game can be harder for some people. Most of you are probably proficient at games, so you all could grasp recovering relatively quickly. Some people can;t. This is to help them.

We all had to learn how to recover when we first started. My issue was getting used to the idea of jumping in mid-air. If people can't grasp the idea of just plain jumping, then they just need to practice more. If they become proficient enough in ground/midair combat on-stage, recovering will become natural anyway. It's just kind of an unnecessary feature. If people aren't going to bother learning how to do something so basic, then they're probably better off playing something else anyway.

 

[SmashChu]

We all had to learn how to recover when we first started. My issue was getting used to the idea of jumping in mid-air. If people can't grasp the idea of just plain jumping, then they just need to practice more. If they become proficient enough in ground/midair combat on-stage, recovering will become natural anyway. It's just kind of an unnecessary feature. If people aren't going to bother learning how to do something so basic, then they're probably better off playing something else anyway.

Again, I doubt that any of you have actually played with someone who isn't proficient in games. Recovering will destroy someone's experience since they have no idea what they are doing. Brawl is still really fast, and these players may never learn without the game being a lot slower, or to offer some help. Again, it will effect none of you.

Now, on the bold. This has been what I've been arguing with Kuma for a few weeks. Why say "If they aren't going to learn it, then they shouldn't play." That's just stupid. You should make the game so they can play the game and enjoy it. You get more sales and can make more happy customers.I can only help grow the series; it can't hurt it.

 

[Thrillhouse-vh.]

We all had to learn how to recover when we first started. My issue was getting used to the idea of jumping in mid-air. If people can't grasp the idea of just plain jumping, then they just need to practice more. If they become proficient enough in ground/midair combat on-stage, recovering will become natural anyway. It's just kind of an unnecessary feature. If people aren't going to bother learning how to do something so basic, then they're probably better off playing something else anyway.

Now that he has clarified that it isn't forced, which he should have in the first place, I agree that it can be a tool used to help unconfident players. Similar to how some mid-90's fighters had an "Auto-Block" feature that the player can select to help them if they felt that they couldn't do anything other than hold back the entire time to block. Same thing for Auto-Parrying, Auto-Dash, Auto-Just Defend, it's all the same thing, they all had their variations. That is not a terrible bad idea (making it how recovering has to work in the game kind of is).

Now, someone who knew how it worked could easily get past a player using Auto-Block by forcing them to block instead of a counter because the game makes them block so they are trapped by crossovers and I could see this being a problem when the game decides to recover instead of trying something else that would benefit the situation more, but that's an entire different story.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Yeah, I have to say, auto recovering is essentially catering to non-gamers. If you can't learn two basic actions within one or two plays of the game, you probably don't play video games very often to begin with if even at all. I taught my Dad how to play Melee in only two "lessons" back in 2004 and he hadn't played video games since the early 80's. This idea is almost like having an auto jump in the original Super Mario Bros whenever you approach certain enemies and obstacles. It's like the video game equivalent of "No Child Left Behind."

 

[flyinfilipino]

Again, I doubt that any of you have actually played with someone who isn't proficient in games. Recovering will destroy someone's experience since they have no idea what they are doing. Brawl is still really fast, and these players may never learn without the game being a lot slower, or to offer some help. Again, it will effect none of you.

Now, on the bold. This has been what I've been arguing with Kuma for a few weeks. Why say "If they aren't going to learn it, then they shouldn't play." That's just stupid. You should make the game so they can play the game and enjoy it. You get more sales and can make more happy customers.I can only help grow the series; it can't hurt it.

Oh no, I have played with plenty of non-gamers. It's just that if they can't master a simple command such as jumping, then they probably won't be having as much fun playing the game anyway, not that they shouldn't play at all. Yeah, it's a nice thought, but as hemightbegiant was kind of leaning to, how would the game decide when to kick in auto-recovery? Perhaps when the player in question makes it a certain distance away from the stage, the game will automatically initiate their Up-B attack.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Yeah, if it worked like the Super Guide option, where the option turned on after you died a certain number of times then I would find it even more pointless. Essentially, you're creating an option for people who can't figure out one or two button inputs before dying 10 times. As I said, even my 50 year old Dad who hadn't played video games since the early days of the industry figured it out within an hour and I wouldn't be surprized if I could teach my four year old cousin how to do it too.

 

[Thrillhouse-vh.]

Oh no, I have played with plenty of non-gamers. It's just that if they can't master a simple command such as jumping, then they probably won't be having as much fun playing the game anyway, not that they shouldn't play at all. Yeah, it's a nice thought, but as hemightbegiant was kind of leaning to, how would the game decide when to kick in auto-recovery? Perhaps when the player in question makes it a certain distance away from the stage, the game will automatically initiate their Up-B attack.

Up-B isn't always the way to recover either. What if you're Jigglypuff and you could easily make it up there with your multiple jumps, but after your first mid-air jump the game makes you do a "recover" move. If that was Up B, Jigglypuff sings, falls down and gets knocked out. If it's regular B, she does Rollout and since you were under the ledge she hits the side of the stage and bounces back and gets knocked out. If it's Forward B, that makes a little more sense, but would the auto-recover let you continue jumping from there or just fall and get knocked out? What about Yoshi's unique jump and his similar situation with Up B? What about Ness and Lucas, would it control the PK Thunder projectile and make it knock you back up? Or ANYBODY who just knocked off and didn't get the chance to use their mid-air jump and got forced to use their Up B first and couldn't make it from there because of that?

Same problems with other "auto" systems from other fighting games. It's an alright learning tool and assist, but if you rely on that and make it a crutch, it can, and if the people you are playing with get better like gamers do, it WILL hurt you more then help.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Geno stuff

What I'm stressing (or trying to stress, rather) is how much weight relevance carries. Every playable character we've had has been relevant to their series at the time of their inclusion (except maybe Doc, but he's still Mario). Like, main cast relevant.

Geno's not part of the core ensemble, he's not even part of the recurring cast. He's a one-shot in a series where you have to be in 100 games to be considered a regular. And I'm pretty convinced that that doesn't cut it for playability in Sakurai's eyes. AT, definitely (if SE is cool with it), but not a playable character.

 

[Pieman0920]

Jody - 3rd in line for new F-Zero character, getting three characters for one series in one game is really unlikely. Also not surprised to see Pieman still has his messed up way of appraising characters. And shame on both of you for forgetting the best chapter in the game.

...Wait, are you reffering to me not mentioning Michael Chain and his chapter? Cause if so...you're totally right, I did forget that, and that was the best chapter.

On Geno, I do agree with Toise in the fact that Geno really doesn't mean much to a series that has so many characters and so many games. Its sort of saying Koops or Goombario have a shot despite being in one game. Now they are indeed different what with their lack of popularity in comparison to Geno, but then again they aren't 3rd party. And as I said before, if Geno is so popular that it could get him into Smash, then why wasn't he in either of the two SE and Mario crossover games? There shouldn't have been any problem with including him in those, as it was clear that SMRPG content was fair game. Still whatever fanbase he does have wasn't enough to push him into that game, and I very much doubt it can push him into Smash, even if SE does team up next game.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Maybe, maybe not; as always, we usually come full circle when it comes to what Sakurai wants to do, we really don't know completely what goes on in his head. He chose Dr. Mario based solely on his theme. He would have passed Ganondorf completely if he didn't see the body structure similarities he had with Captain Falcon despite being one of the top ten most voted characters in the Melee poll. Pit got in despite utterly unimpressive sales of the Kid Icarus release. Snake got in because of a request from a friend despite Snake being mostly Sony oriented since about the mid 90s. I'm still convinced that Sakurai's kind of like a lot of the fans in how he picks most people simply because he thinks they're cool. I don't think he thinks that deeply about it, to be completely honest. We want to think that he sits at his laptop, with Microsoft Word open, and making a T chart with several page long lists about the pros and cons of certain characters at 4 in the morning but I see the process as almost being insultingly simple.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

@Pieman: Stuff like that made me miss the Death Race. Next F-Zero needs it so bad (among lots of other stuff).

@Fatman: All of those characters are still important to their series, that's the thing I'm trying to get at. Ganon's a main villain, Falcon/Pit/Snake are leads, and Dr. Mario is a lead in a different costume. Is Geno part of the main cast in Mario? No, he has his major role in a game and that's it. Popular, yes, but not relevant to the big picture.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Of course, we always have Jigglypuff that acts as an anti-thesis to that. Like I said, not the most likely but definately not impossible.

 

[Thrillhouse-vh.]

At the time of Smash 64 Jiggly was as relevant as the other top five popular Pokemon in Japan who were also considered.

As much as I would like to see Geno I admit that it will most likely never happen. The only justification I will put forth for me wanting him was that he was a character I like from a game that was a big part of my SNES gaming growing up and SNES gaming today. I just like him **** it. That is all.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

@Fatman: As HMBG said, Jiggs was very relevant during 64 (hence the "relevant at the time of their inclusion" bit). And she's still among the most popular Pokemon worldwide so I don't see her as an anti-thesis of anything except masculinity.

 

[Fatmanonice]

The only thing that Jigglypuff ever had going for her was the fact that she was popular during the first generation in Japan. That's it. She's never been important, not even in the spinoff games and that's saying a lot. She was a side character for about two seasons in the anime before being dropped completely so, all in all, Jigglypuff by far has the most unimpressive resume in Smash Bros. Essentially, you have a character that's practically crawling on the floor because of how low they set the bar, popularity in one region... about a decade ago and yet still in Smash.

@ Toise:

Still calling her popular is definately a stretch. She's not even used in the commericals anymore, not even in Japan. Smash is pretty much her lifeline as the character hasn't been an icon of the pokemon franchise since probably about the year 2000.

Add in: I don't even think she's been used as one of the "cute" pokemon in the Pikachu short films since the fourth movie. I know she didn't play a role in any of the movies including the Mystery Dungeon ones. Oh, I almost forgot the magna too. That also traces back to the first generation. Wasn't she one of Misty's pokemon then?

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

No, it's not a stretch to say she's popular or relevant. Polls on Pokemon.com still have her coming in second to Pikachu, and this is in the US. She still pops up frequently in the games. On top of that, Pokemon is an evolving series, so for her to retain her popularity for so long definitely says something.

I can understand why you might think she's not popular, you're not a little girl and I doubt you interact with any that love Pokemon on a regular basis.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Where's the poll on the site? I can't find it on the main page.

Also, this seems to basically be desolving into an arguement that Jigglypuff got into Smash solely on popularity which goes back to what I said earlier...

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Of course you can't, they're not doing one right now. Gotta Google around for results if you want to see them.


Anyway, Jigglypuff belongs to an evolving series, the kind that doesn't have a recurring main cast (like FE and possibly Mother). Popularity carries more weight there, which is why we got Mewtwo in Melee and the Gen 1 starters in Brawl. You could even argue that relevance is determined by popularity in those cases.

Geno, on the other hand, belongs to a static series, the kind that DOES have a main recurring cast. Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, sometimes Yoshi, and arguably Toad and/or Bowser Jr. make up this main recurring cast. Geno belongs to neither this core group nor the other lesser group of recurrers made up of Daisy, Waluigi, Petey, Toadette, and whoever else. He belongs to the group of characters who appear once in a specific title then never appears again, mostly RPG characters.

Sakurai hasn't shown any interest in these types of one-shot characters to become playable. The only character in Smash who might be classified as such is Sheik, and aside from being very relevant and very popular during Melee, she's still Zelda. Plus they planned on using her for TP anyway and there's the comparison to Tetra, so her status as a one-shot is debatable.

What does Geno have? A spinoff in a massive ocean of Mario titles. Great game? Definitely, but not very important to the big picture.

 

[NeverFiniteX]

Auto-Recovery
Um..training mode? They will notice a pattern when they spam the C-stick against a Cpu in any mode really. I can't belive that you guys are still tlalking about this, I'm sure that new players will catch on, if not, they can always trade in their game at the local Gamestop or something. I would say the complication of the game draws me in rather than push me away, the glory is found in the arena. I'd rather get owned in my best efforts than have the game do all my work for me.

Giant
Theres still some fun in researching the logical pathways, as you do research, you gain credibility in the qaulity of your descriptions. I've learned a lot about nintendo so far and I've even started playing games that I probably wouldn't have if I had not seen their additions. If it were up to me, I would involve all my fav characters like Knuckles, Ryu, Goku, like all of Golden Suns characters, Megaman X (only) and just throw away characters like the Ice Climbers, Pit, and Snake (replace them with Crash and Banjo Kazooie, who in my opinion are more 'nintendo cartoony' in their design). But this isn't just my world and its not my franchise to control (spawning envy). I'd rather not be known for being ignorant (not calling anyone that) I just think that the youth in me can reason through my more mature ways of thought.

Puff- I vote that this character gets replaced. I agree, jiggly's losing popularity and after three games, it might be time to go. Jiggs was famous for us kids back in middle school, now its time to pass the torch over to the next generation. Mango makes history in Melee, then someone else will do the same in the next smash with a different character, thats how the cycle goes. Hopefuly Jiggly won't hold up the spot for another character, not even mario had six characters involved in Brawl (that is, if wario is a considered to be a standalone guy).

 

[OMNIKIDXXX]

Puff- I vote that this character gets replaced. I agree, jiggly's losing popularity and after three games, it might be time to go. Jiggs was famous for us kids back in middle school, now its time to pass the torch over to the next generation. Mango makes history in Melee, then someone else will do the same in the next smash with a different character, thats how the cycle goes. Hopefuly Jiggly won't hold up the spot for another character, not even mario had six characters involved in Brawl (that is, if wario is a considered to be a standalone guy).[/QUOTE]

its better if ssb4 just adds new characters,, without losing the old ones,,ther is no good reason to "replace" characters,, when they can just keep adding to give more variety to the game,,
and she wont Hold up a spot for another character,,they either add a new character or they dont,,
i really doubt they will hav a set amount of characters when creating the roster for ssb4

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

For Jigglypuff, I think it is partially in part to notice the fact that there is no single pokemon in the entire 493 pokemon that the trainer needs to have. Tey need to pick pokemon who are usually popular (startes at least need to be owned), Popular (Pikachu), or known (Jigglypuff). While jiggly may still be popular, she is also widley known by any pokemon fan, more so or as much as, any other pokemon outside the starters and pikachu.

@Smashchu, I understand why you want an auto-recovery, but doing ti for them isn't going to help them learn, they wil just ignore that part of the game. They'll just leave auto-recovery on forever, and dnver learn.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Jigglypuff should be replaced by Toad. Give him similar aerial movement and we're fine.
Re-add Mewtwo, replace Ike with the future Fire Emblem hero (I prefer they let him stay though), add K.Rool, give Ganon his ****ing sword already and add a suprise character and I think we're fine.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Your roster looks pretty solid from what I can tell. I think I mixed up your roster with someone else's, but my opinion remains the same that I can't comment on some of the characters because I don't know anything about them. Do you think you can repost it so that we can "pick it apart" persay. I can't just list the charcters that I would be concerned with because I don't know what their names are,, except for stafy... I don't know what you are thinking, then again I just think he LOOKS gay and I don't know a thing about him.

I can repost it If needed with the names. For a reference on names, check toise's post. (Feel free to ask me who's who on any of the icons)

Alright Koops, you get your wish.

Alright. My second wish is to have this roster rea...

*Thinks about negative results*
On second thought...

Claus - Not Very Likely

"I agree despite having hope still" - Let's keep it to that.

3rd Parties are a mixed bag, but 5 of them (6 if you count Geno) is not happening

You've got 23 newcomers (25 if you count Mewtwo and Roy), making a total roster of 64. Not happening.

I was actually thinking more of the future as well and not just Smash 4; I mean, 2 Golden Sun reps It's first time around? Unless sakurai shows some major love or GS:DS Gets a lot of sales, I really doubt it. 2 GS Reps in the future? Possible. Of course, same thing goes with jody.

Jody -

To be far, LoZ Got 3 (But I think everyone including me will by far agree that was a different case) But overall, I agree with you.

Starfy -

Got lazy with that description (And Saki's)

Felix -

Essentially leaves us having the same opinion on him, fair enough...However you still need to play Golden Sun. I managed to go through F-Zero

"Retro" characters

Being honest here, while I see the importance in ROB And G&W, what truthfully made Ice Climbers and Pit "Above All other retro's"? The way I see It, It really depends on what Sakurai thinks, which is what we don't know. Flat-out deconfirming them, eh...

Last thing on the FE stuff

Interesting. Also interesting about FF6.

edit: asdjfaksdf too many characters on your thing made me forget Ridley and lose count

MY EVIL PLAN IS COMING TOGETHER MWHAHA

...Yeah, I did go a bit too far in that area.

*List*

Asides from Shadow and Dark Samus, pretty agreeable list...Just not in that order.

...Wait, are you reffering to me not mentioning Michael Chain and his chapter? Cause if so...you're totally right, I did forget that, and that was the best chapter.

I actually liked the Deathborne chapter the most. .-.

On Geno, I do agree with Toise in the fact that Geno really doesn't mean much to a series that has so many characters and so many games. Its sort of saying Koops or Goombario have a shot despite being in one game. Now they are indeed different what with their lack of popularity in comparison to Geno, but then again they aren't 3rd party. And as I said before, if Geno is so popular that it could get him into Smash, then why wasn't he in either of the two SE and Mario crossover games? There shouldn't have been any problem with including him in those, as it was clear that SMRPG content was fair game. Still whatever fanbase he does have wasn't enough to push him into that game, and I very much doubt it can push him into Smash, even if SE does team up next game.

I really do have to say that I agree; I just wouldn't call him a complete pipe dream even If Nintendo is partnered with Square but It's just one of those "It has such a low shot that It's not worth talking about that much but still has a shot". Regardless, whatever Square and Nintendo do If they team up in the next smash, whether It be ChocoSlime, Geno, Black Mage, or something else, It'll probably be pretty awesome.

...My support on Square still is going to Final Fantasy.

either of the two SE and Mario crossover games

I know mario hoops but the other one? (Since you said two he wasn't in) Sir, you have peaked my interest.

I'm still convinced that Sakurai's kind of like a lot of the fans in how he picks most people simply because he thinks they're cool. I don't think he thinks that deeply about it, to be completely honest. We want to think that he sits at his laptop, with Microsoft Word open, and making a T chart with several page long lists about the pros and cons of certain characters at 4 in the morning but I see the process as almost being insultingly simple.

This image is stuck in my head.

Personally; While I don't think It's as "Insultingly Simple" As you say it is, I really doubt It's all that complicated either. We make it look pretty simple, It's just that we (Especially me) Get tangled up in all these What If's and questions start to quickly occur for each character.