[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[Fatmanonice]

This is laughable since the post you quoted was a massive rant about auto-recoveries. Now somehow I talk as if I have a vendetta with competitive Smash.

In fact, your post proves that catering to the competitive community is a bad idea. They will just adapt, being the mindless drones they are.

Given this, I would say that you do. Also, he was talking about not exclusively catering to one side of the spectrum. Whenever someone says anything about doing something for the competitive side, you suggest that it will somehow ruin Smash.

 

[flyinfilipino]

In fact, your post proves that catering to the competitive community is a bad idea. They will just adapt, being the mindless drones they are.

Given this, I would say that you do. Also, he was talking about not exclusively catering to one side of the spectrum. Whenever someone says anything about doing something for the competitive side, you suggest that it will somehow ruin Smash.

Yeah, you pretty much just ragged on the competitive community for simply existing. Also, there's the fact that you're trying to push for this "auto-recovery" feature idea, something that's supposedly supposed to help newer players get into the game to start off with, as a means to combat the competitive community.

Honestly, does any of this conjecture about what community the game should supposedly "focus" on matter?

 

[Thrillhouse-vh.]

Wow, you're almost taking this personal.

I'm just annoyed that there seems to be this little argument going on when there really is no point going on.

In fact, your post proves that catering to the competitive community is a bad idea. They will just adapt, being the mindless drones they are.

Like every single person who played Melee competitively all adapted to Brawl without question, amirite? That was a bad way to put it. The next Smash will have a competitive scene, if players from the past smashes continue into that scene, that is not important. There will always be a competitive scene, that's all I was trying to say, whether made up of fans who will adept to this new system or an entire new fan base sprouting up just because of this game. Besides, it's not like the kids who liked Brawl who never took it seriously won't be just as excited and be begging their parents for the next Smash.

Focusing on the competitive community is the first step to niche-hood. Street Fighter is the example I always give as it is the real case. Street Fighter 2 was a massive hit but other games in the series always fell flat. How could it be that such a successful game could never be matched, or even get near enough to look at. Fighting game immediately went into decline after SF2. That was, until 3D fighting games and Smash. In fact, out of all of those games, Smash is the only one which has growth.

I said appealing only to competitive gamers isn't a good idea as this will happen. The ENTIRE fighting game sensation from the 90's has fallen, and Smash was able to overcome this, which I am glad with and it's one of my favorite video games series of all time for it. Each game is like nothing else out there, it will not be like Street Fighter, ever.

The new players. those who have never played Smash, should be the next focus. But, basically, the game should be designed to try new feature (such as auto-recovery) eliminate some (like wavedashing in Melee), focus on old ones (unique characters and stages) and reduce those which are not as helpful (such as advance techs).

The point of auto-recovery seems to be to help the weaker player not to die. That would be a good learning tool, but basing that in the entire game engine just seems pointless. I would say that Brawl greatly improved on recovering for weaker players. It really isn't that hard. Even Wii Play and Wii Sports are not that forgiving.

The problem is, there is no such thing as a balance. People quote Melee, but it never was. Melee defiantly had some barriers to it. Also, most casual players hated things like wavedashing and L-canceling as it means they were worse because they didn't practice doing one trick. The reason you ignore your competitive community is because giving them what they want just creates barriers. Doing the opposite will help eliminate barriers. Auto-Recovering removes barrier that may stun Smash's growth to new players. I think that fact that some people hate it on a competitive Smash forum means it's a good idea.

Most casual players I know didn't know what wavedashing was. A lot of them knew how to do L-canceling but didn't know the term. It's not like competitive players are breaking into 12 year old's homes playing smash and kicking their ***, nor are 12 year olds breaking into my house and making me play with PokeBalls and Assist Trophies on the highest rate.

This is laughable since the post you quoted was a massive rant about auto-recoveries. Now somehow I talk as if I have a vendetta with competitive Smash.

As long as a game exists there will be a competitive fanbase around that. Whether or not they exist at arcades or at schools or at tournaments or online play or siblings just playing with each other to see who is the best for bragging rights, it will happen because games are SERIOUS BUSINESS.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Honestly, does any of this conjecture about what community the game should supposedly "focus" on matter?

Out of fairness, the "competitive community" (I hate that term) is really, really tiny compared to the "casual community" (I hate that one too).


The only problem is when a game is made with a small group of people in mind, rather than a game most people can enjoy. I came into this discussion late so I have no idea what specifically you guys are talking about, except for the auto-recovery thing (which isn't necessary since learning how to recover is the first thing everyone learns in this game; there's no auto-jump in Mario, is there?).

 

[Big-Cat]

Everyone's already said what I wanted to say about your idea for autorecovery.

You are a Street Fighter player, so you see everything having to be deep and having huge learning curves as that is how the series has become. Street Fighter is long since over the hill thanks to that philosophy and you eat it up. That philosophy has destroyed 2D fighter to the point to where Smash bros waltzes in.

I'm not the Street Fighter player you make me out to be. I've only been playing since IV came out. Yes, I main the character with the third highest learning curve, but that's because I like him as a character. I enjoy playing someone like Chun-Li who has a lower learning curve so it's not like I'm looking for difficulty or a high learning curve.

A game has to wow you very early or the player will up and leave it. If the player finds the game too hard, they'll say "forget it," and walk away. The goal of the game is to get the player into the game. The game should not be hard to learn. Why play a game that is to complicated. This is actually why I stay away from Street Fighter (played it, found it too hard, play Tatsunoko vs Capcom instead).

Some people look for a challenge. Some people get bored playing easy games and want a challenge, even if that means a high initial learning curve.

Games should always be trying to expand. Your idea, as your post makes it out, is to say "forget them," and move on. I ask, how is this helpful? Why should we not try to help the weaker player so that they can enjoy the game? Multiplayer games work when they are easy to be able to pick up. Your advocating to not do this, and I can not see why.

Look, I'm all for weaker players enjoying the game, but no vet of Smash should suffer because of their lack of skills. They have to go through what we went through.

 

[flyinfilipino]

And regardless of how hard or easy the game will be, everyone should remember the main reason people will buy the next Smash Bros. game, and the main reason Smash Bros. has sold so well as a series...

...Nintendo's All-Stars (and others)!

 

[NeverFiniteX]

Wow this thread seems to be pretty alive, I'm glad that I didn't overlook it completely

Although I am glad to be here, Im not really interested in all the arguments going on I would rather talk about some of the logistics of the new Smash and reason them out. Debates are cool and all but its better for them to be credible, rather than just mud slinging competitions.

Chu
What are you worried about here? Are you a sales rep for Hal or something? I'm sure that if this company took more time to advertise smash games, then more of the casual players would become interested (Remember the first Smash commercial?) Seeing Link and Mario in the same setting is more than enough encouragement for new players to pick this title up. Trust me, they will figure it all out in time (especially if the story mode isn't like the SSE)

I guess what I'm saying is that this game has enough bulk and prestige that it keeps players hooked.

 

[OMNIKIDXXX]

*i think ther should b 50+ characters in the next game =]
keep all originals but change moveset for clones
*characters that should def be added in r:
krystal,,meowth,,mewtwo comes bak,,knuckles(i would hope for rouge too but i doubt that will happen),,megaman,,roll(so megaman is not all alone),,midna(maybe riding on wolf link? or would that b weird? =S ) thats all i can think of off the top of my head
*add-in alt. costumes,,thers so many they can add
*fix online play,,they couldve made it sooo much better its ********
*better stage builder
*make gameplay more like melee able to combo easier with slighty more hit stun and increase gravity/weight(wen characters besides link could actually not recover to the stage) ,,a medium between melee and brawl would b good
* more songs!!! i really enjoy the music
*and sum random changes that should def happen
samus and zero can transform liek zelda/sheik,,make jiggs sing a useful move or get rid of it for sumthing else,,thers a lot more but i dont hav time to add em all

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Seriously, especially considering how amazing some of the tracks are on the S&P OST.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CxX8n7NOWU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2D2JH2rNf7o

So, so good. T^T

Heck yes. I mean; It's not as much of a loss as If they ignored the Golden Sun OST But It's still such a huge loss to soundtrack. I really hope next time around that we'll be given more of both. It works so perfectly for a fighting game.

Currently listening to more of S&P2's soundtrack. I can't really decide which one I like better.

so here's my revised dream roster for SSB4.

You missed the more interesting one: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8830903&postcount=28033

And there's also a stage discussion group in that post. Yay for me being less lazy.

but commenting on this one:

7. Diddy Kong & Dixie Kong

aka: Ignore smash fans who main diddy and make dixie added.

20. Captain Falcon

Very ignoresome of you to want to screw over F-Zero fans yet give a lot of other main franchises a new rep, eh?

Even with the status (Which sakurai cares more on the character; It seems), F-Zero has at least spawned enough for another rep for Smash 4, Even with moveset potential. If you really do have a bias against the series; Go play it.

24. Golden Sun DS protagonist

Needs a more "/Isaac" Considering he's been in two of the games and very vital in both of them; We don't know how much popularity the DS Protaginist will get.

Column 6: Kirby / Mother

Probably what will happen in smash 4 (Note the last 3 words)

Column 7: Star Fox / Fire Emblem
31. Fox
32. Krystal
33. Wolf

While I wouldn't mind Krystal and think she'd be a great addition, why remove falco? Why can't all the other series have all there important characters? There's no need to remove falco unless you're biasing in other characters.

Oh and If you say Smash 64, here's something it also had: Similar/Even representation.

34. Marth

35. New Fire Emblem protagonist

Why in the world does Ike get removed? You better have a good reason considering he's had two games (Most re-occuring lord outside of marth) and both have been in the US As well, along with in the US The only console protaginist

...Oh; And don't forget he ranked high on the brawl poll. So even before fans want him, and now he seems to be a noob friendly character.

40. Gold (Chikorita, Quilava, Feraligatr)

AKA: I shoe-in unoriginal copies of the Pokemon Trainer that have no need instead of keepiing a character who's been there since Smash 64. *Yawn*

Column 9: Nintendo system mascots / Third party mascots

Removing Snake and not even any love for Square Enix or Suda 51...
Well, you at least kept MM and Sonic

Overall; Of course, Dream Roster but If you were posting it here I assumed you would want some discussion in it. Overall, it seems like trying too hard to remove characters (Hi jiggs) who don't need to be removed in order to place bias ones, and kicking F-Zero in the nuts again. A lot just doesn't make sense rep-wise as pointed out.

I think that fact that some people hate it on a competitive Smash forum means it's a good idea.

No. Just no. I can understand you saying no to hazard switch (As It'll change...uh...6 Stages competitive wise and make people ignore the original versions of them...Yay?) But this is just an awful idea.

What else do we need to do to break them barriers? How about an auto attack? Or just making them a cruel brawl CPU? In short, It's really easy already to recover. You just press X or Y Twice and then the Up B. Doing your idea doesn't team them how, It just gives them a lazy way to do it. I mean If my idea isn't enough then for the love of god, you can spread a link to the dojo and they'll find out, and If THAT'S Lacking for casuals, then just say where to SPECIFICALLY Find the "You must recover" Update.

Is there really anything difficult in that? Then they learn. If not, chances are they weren't going to buy it anyways.

So really, this isn't removing barriers by any means. There's a certain point you can go to like removing Wavedashing or L-Canceling, but this is just not even being able to truely enjoy the recovery aspect.

edit: Oh, and the part where you said "OH YEAH COMPETITIVE PLAYERS THINK IT'S BAD" Is...Wow, as while I'm not the biggest competitive player around here and not all of them are knowledgeable, there are some clearly knowledgeable more than "New Players" Or so of what should be added. We for one actually have the right idea about Online and Stage Builder.

Just because they add it into a game and "Competitive Players" Hate it and people will buy it doesn't mean it'll be good. See: SSE

And while I understand that smash has turned into the biggest fighting game on the market currently, that still doesn't mean they can't find out. There's a tutorial video, an official made website, friends (Well, If they're not evil ones who won't tell you just to amuse you), Experimenting out in training mode, The MANUAL That's included with the game, etc.

 

[DekuBoy]

Obviously the competitive players are not aware that they can create their own stages. Smash Bros evolves but the competitive players stand still.

 

[Arcadenik]

@ Third Koopa

I don't think it is ignoring the fans who main Diddy Kong when the only change is Down B. Sakurai seemed to be interested in the idea of a Diddy & Dixie team based on his Brawl journal.

About F-Zero, sure, I added characters from the more successful franchises over a F-Zero character. There are several successful franchises after Brawl came out so I added characters from those games. I also have to consider the roster limit if I want to add characters from new franchises and characters from more successful franchises. I wanted to branch out and diversify the roster so that's why I added new characters from several new franchises in addition to the new characters from existing franchises.

Toad - New Super Mario Bros. Wii (Wii, 2009)
Dixie Kong - Donkey Kong country 3: Dixie Kong's Double Trouble! (Virtual Console, 2008)
King K. Rool - Donkey Kong Country 3: Dixie Kong's Double Trouble! (Virtual Console, 2008)
Tingle - Color Changing Tingle's Balloon Trip of Love (DS, 2009)
Takamaru - Samurai Warriors 3 (Wii, 2009)
Hunting Dog - Duck Hunt (NES, 1985) - he can be the "LOL Surprise Obscure NES Character" for SSB4
Little Mac - Punch-Out!! (Wii, 2009)
Golden Sun DS protagonist - Golden Sun DS (DS, 2010)
Starfy - The Legendary Starfy (DS, 2009)
Krystal - future Star Fox game
New Fire Emblem protagonist - future Fire Emblem game
Meowth - Pokemon Mystery Dungeon: Light Adventure Squad (WiiWare, 2009)
Mewtwo - Pokemon HeartGold/SoulSilver (DS, 2009)
Gold - Pokemon HeartGold/SoulSilver (DS, 2009)
Mii - Wii Sports Resort (Wii, 2009)
Mega Man - Mega Man 9 (WiiWare, 2008)

About Star Fox, I still don't think it deserves four characters. Three were pushing it... especially when two of them are clones of Fox. I would rather have one Fox clone and two original Star Fox characters. Why remove Falco and not Wolf? I figured that furries love foxes and wolves more than birds. The more furries who buy the game, the more sales the game gets.

Why did I remove Ike? By the time SSB4 comes out, he won't be the most recent protagonist, someone new will be. Roy was the most recent protagonist at the time Melee came out (at least he was going to be). Ike was the most recent protagonist at the time Brawl came out. And Sakurai can make another noob-friendly character out of the new Fire Emblem protagonist. And fans will want him/her when that future game comes out.

Jigglypuff is one of my mains in Melee and Brawl (believe it or not) and I still want her gone. I feel she is not even important to the Pokemon franchise. She feels more like a joke character than one of the mascots of the franchise. I would rather have Tingle as the new joke character, at least he is the mascot/protagonist of his own series. Meowth is more famous (even Sakurai acknowledges this on the Dojo and on Meowth's Brawl trophy) and he is practically one of the best-known icons of the franchise alongside Pikachu, the starters in general, Mewtwo, and movie Pokemon in general. And Gold's Pokemon wouldn't be clones of Red's Pokemon so it is not accurate to say Gold would be a clone of Red. All in all, I removed two Pokemon and added five new ones (technically four when you consider the fact Mewtwo isn't exactly new to Smash but still).

About third party characters, I removed Snake for several reasons. One, Nintendo and Sega are still making more Mario & Sonic games which means Nintendo loves Sonic. Two, fans are still asking for MOAR Sonic characters but I don't think it needs more Sonic characters besides Sonic so Sonic can just stay. Three, fans are asking for Mega Man and he is the most-wanted third party character for SSB4 so I think Mega Man can do fine in the game. Last, there are no more Metal Gear games on Nintendo consoles since that PS1 remake on the Gamecube (I suspect that Kojima remade that game for the Gamecube to meet Sakurai's rule where non-Nintendo characters must originate on video games and must appear on a Nintendo console at least once) that there is no point in keeping Snake if Kojima is not supporting the Wii like Sega and Capcom are doing. Oh, and I would love to have a SquareEnix mascot (Chocobo & Slime), Simon Belmont, and Pac-Man but I think two third-party characters are enough since the focus should be on Nintendo.

All my two cents.

 

[DekuBoy]

Just cause you want Jiggs gone doesn't mean it'll go. Also I'm fine with Snake going as long as they don't get another third-party to replace him. Even Tingle is better than half the third party suggestions I hear.

disclaimer: I like Tingle.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Obviously the competitive players are not aware that they can create their own stages. Smash Bros evolves but the competitive players stand still.

However the stages are so stale that you can make that you really can't make one that helps recover well (IE: Actually good ledges)

Now onto this...

I don't think it is ignoring the fans who main Diddy Kong when the only change is Down B. Sakurai seemed to be interested in the idea of a Diddy & Dixie team based on his Brawl journal.

It still seems like a clear punch in the face, because especially considering Diddy's top tier status, it means overall you'd end up changing the character (Could diddy really be more powerful than dixie while dixie runs around? Doesn't make sense to me) But I suppose It could happen.

About F-Zero, sure, I added characters from the more successful franchises over a F-Zero character. There are several successful franchises after Brawl came out so I added characters from those games. I also have to consider the roster limit if I want to add characters from new franchises and characters from more successful franchises. I wanted to branch out and diversify the roster so that's why I added new characters from several new franchises in addition to the new characters from existing franchises.

However, just because a franchise is more successful doesn't mean another series (That has stayed here ever since 64 and like metroid, HAS Viable characters still) I just don't really see it deserving the shaft just because it hasn't had a new game (...YET...) As oppossed to other series, because it DID Have recent releases during the time of melee-bawl, and those were well recieved. It just didn't manage to get It's second PC First as oppossed to other series (Hey look; Similar to ridley except without programming issues!)

I really do believe it doesn't deserve a kick in the balls as oppossed to other series that:
A) Already have It's extremely main viable characters (Mario and LoZ For the most part, Pokemon but that's mainly on popularity, and of course the obligatory Kirby for already having all It's viable characters)
B) Most other series got a nice "+1" while F-Zero didn't throughout the past games (Fox got his two out of three important crew members, Fire Emblem got one rep and possibly may have three in Smash 4, Mother got the only other viable protaginist, Kirby got complete, etc)

Really; While I don't think Black Shadow or Jody will make it onto smash 4 (Especially the latter) Not including goroh seems rather biased to F-Zero.

Anyways, going out of the F-Zero topic...

About Star Fox, I still don't think it deserves four characters.

Characters don't get based on sales as much as how many plausible characters the series had. It just determines what usually gets completed faster. Just take a look at the brawl roster - Does it really look all that sales based or more importance on each series?

Anyways; Falco is still an important character. As important as Krystal? Debateable. But Falco still has at least the smash popularity keeping him back in. If they were going to throw him out, It would've been in brawl. (And don't say "TIME CONSTRAINTS" Because Sakurai said himself every character was in the game some way and already put out asides from sonic by the end of 2005)

SF Getting four characters won't be the end of the world. 3 wasn't pushing it as they were all important. Sure It's not as popular, but all the characters are still important (Falco's like mario's Luigi, Wolf is kinda similar to Bowser, and Krystal is kinda similar to Peach - What's seperating that? One got completed faster...And mario still has some plausible characters up It's sleeve)

Why did I remove Ike? By the time SSB4 comes out, he won't be the most recent protagonist, someone new will be. Roy was the most recent protagonist at the time Melee came out (at least he was going to be). Ike was the most recent protagonist at the time Brawl came out. And Sakurai can make another noob-friendly character out of the new Fire Emblem protagonist. And fans will want him/her when that future game comes out.

...

You didn't seem to notice what I said: Roy was more of a crash and burn character (Yay clones!) when putting him into Melee and turned into more than that. Ike on the other hand is...Essentially the Marth of Fire Emblem in the US - Of course, I could possibly see him removed, but what does Marth have that Ike doesn't have?

I feel she is not even important to the Pokemon franchise.

Because the pokemon franchise is based more on popularity than any other franchise (Discluding Pokemon Trainer, Mewtwo, and partly in a sense, Pikachu)

Anyways: She still has popularity and her Smash 64 status (Which, sakurai also acknowledges. Zap!) - What does meowth have over her? Anime! And that's really about it. The two are hardly that different, but one has smash keeping her in.

As for "YAY SECOND PROTAGINIST" No. If you want a 2nd gen represenitive, at least come up with a solid idea that isn't another PT (I.E. Lucario, Pikachu, etc) Of course, there's also the obvious "NEWEST GENERATION REP"

As for the clone part: Considering you still keep going by saying Wolf and Falco are clones (Which, Falco is essentially "Luigified" And wolf has...Uh...One truly "Shared" Move; I consider them similar to the lucas case. Surprised lucas doesn't get bashed on a lot :D) - And really, there doesn't even seem to be anything unique with this second protaginist anyways. PT Has the switch gimmick. New guy has...uh...

One, Nintendo and Sega are still making more Mario & Sonic games which means Nintendo loves Sonic.

More supportive of sonic than it does decrease in snake.

Two, fans are still asking for MOAR Sonic characters but I don't think it needs more Sonic characters besides Sonic so Sonic can just stay.

Fans keep asking for more because sonic just has more interesting characters than Metal Gear does. (And more...Fanbases...Ugh) It's like how people want more Mother/Starfox/F-Zero/Mario/*Insert franchise here* Characters over more Yoshi characters..

Last, there are no more Metal Gear games on Nintendo consoles since that PS1 remake on the Gamecube (I suspect that Kojima remade that game for the Gamecube to meet Sakurai's rule where non-Nintendo characters must originate on video games and must appear on a Nintendo console at least once)

He was on the NES As well, just fyi.

that there is no point in keeping Snake

Because Kojima opening the doors to other third-parties sure isn't anything; Nope.

And overall I have yet to see anything bad come out of him; Konami...I can't really say I know how they've been supporting the wii in general as a company, but considering what Snake did alone by opening the doors, I consider him fine enough to return. (However, I could see him/sonic or both cut; Too early to tell)

I think two third-party characters are enough since the focus should be on Nintendo.

I've said this before and I'll say it again: Even If the current third-parties are kept and two are added, the focus with new additions and overall won't "Sink" Out of nintendo. The only way It truly can with new additions is If most of them ARE Third-Party, and that's not what we're suggesting.

...Or If we get more random obscure "HEY; PLEASE SAKURAI" Characters like Travis, but even then, as stated, It happened with snake and I haven't really seen any complaints on the whole focus (Heck, I've actually seen MORE Third-Parties on fan rosters.)

Just cause you want Jiggs gone doesn't mean it'll go. Also I'm fine with Snake going as long as they don't get another third-party to replace him. Even Tingle is better than half the third party suggestions I hear.

Just because half of them are bad doesn't mean the other half would be awful (ie megaman and a FF Or overall Square Enix) - I really do actually think that Kojima deserves a thank you along with sonic (Even If I don't care for MGS Games much despite owning all of sony's consoles o_O) for opening the doors to outside of characters 100% Made by nintendo.

 

[Kyoko]

I am a fan of having Banjo/Kazooie...however improbably that is T-T

 

[oceanic--ice]

if i had seen this thread a few months ago i would have posted 100 new characters.....right now im quite dissapointed with nintendo and i dont really care about any addition.... just don't exceed 15 new ones and don't remove more than 3... oh w8....how about luigi getting his vacuum? all that fire/water/ice/suck concept sounds pretty interesting...

 

[Arcadenik]

All right, here is the thing.... you are basically saying that Gold wouldn't be unique because Red already have the switch thing. But that is besides the point. Chikorita, Quilava, and Feraligatr would not be clones of Ivysaur, Charizard, and Squirtle. Same concept, different moves. If Sakurai likes to reuse ideas such as clones, I think he might like to add a second Pokemon Trainer (Gold sounds way better than "Female Trainer" and "Rival Trainer").

Meowth might be more popular than we think. Why is Meowth still in the anime after all these years and Jigglypuff just vanished from the spotlight after the Orange Island episodes? Meowth is one of the starters in the Pokemon Mystery Dungeon games and Jigglypuff isn't. The only thing Jigglypuff has going for her is her "perfect Smash attendance" and how unique she is as Sakurai pointed out on her Dojo page. She has nothing except for those (though uniqueness didn't save Mewtwo from getting removed). At least Sakurai felt the need to remind us how important Meowth is on his Dojo page and on his Brawl trophy.

About Diddy & Dixie... let me quote what Sakurai said about Bowser on the Dojo. "To be honest, there are a LOT of characters that offer a slightly different flavor this time around. If you think they’re all going to be the same as they have been, it’ll be rough for you." So yeah, not everyone in Brawl will stay the same in SSB4 so consider those fans punched in the face. Come think about, maybe there is no need for Krystal in SSB4 since Falco and Wolf could be further decloned by then!

And Marth has something Ike doesn't. He is the original protagonist of the franchise. Ike is just the current holder of the "most recent protagonist" in the long line of successsors. I don't see what is so special about Ike - so what if he is the first international lord? He isn't even the first international lord - we have several international lords before Ike like Lyn, Eliwood, Hector, and those two lords from The Sacred Stones. The only thing special about Ike is that he had the most votes out of all the international lords on the Brawl poll.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Second PT

But here's the thing: The character aspect just has nothing unique to it as oppossed to PT. All it is is "Hi, I throw in more pokemon on the roster" Which really, PT Could just have a similar alt to the other gens or color scheme. The only thing 2nd gen has going for it is SS And HG, which we all manage to know that they'll at least sneak in one actually new generation before Smash 4.

(though uniqueness didn't save Mewtwo from getting removed).

Programming issues. Am I the only one not surprised at Mewtwo getting removed?

Regardless; Jiggs ain't going anywhere at this point. Perfect Smash Attendence, Popularity, Uniqueness (And no programming issues here), Managed to get back in brawl even with the roster being decided in 05, etc. Even If Meowth managed to sneak in a spot, chances are, It won't be off of a character already established in smash.

I know It's a dream roster, but don't keep hope on it, especially off of jiggs.

Come think about, maybe there is no need for Krystal in SSB4 since Falco and Wolf could be further decloned by then!

We don't really "Need" Krystal just yet - She is the last important viable character to the Starfox series, but other series could use more of a touch considering how much focus Starfox has had. (Well, character-wise. Stage wise...Planes!)

in the long line of successsors. I don't see what is so special about Ike

He is the second most reoccuring lord (First goes to Marth) And the only one internationally to appear on a non-handheld console; Essentially making him the "International" Marth. The only thing he hasn't done was not be the FIRST Protaginist in the US. He stars FE9 and 10 (Or was it 10 and 11? I'm confused)

Thus, making him not a "Crash and Burn" Character unlike Roy sorta was, and even then, by all these "Yay random clones with mewtwo tacked on list" in the files, Roy was at least considered.

Now think about it for a second: If Roy was at least apparently considered at one point, and Roy wasn't that close to the lord as Marth was as oppossed to Ike to Marth, then...Uh...Yeah. So in short, that DOES Make Ike still a very plausible contestant (However If we're to have a few characters removed again, Ike is a plausible contestant in that category as well) Oh, and don't forget, no re-working Ike's moveset as well har har.

There - Is that enough to explain the ike coming back support?

 

[NeverFiniteX]

Some thoughts

If Geno (SMRPG) is in it ther must be Paper Mario
King K.Rool is a definite Go! and Dixie can be an Assist Trophy (or not!)
Add Bowser Junior
Rep F-Zero and Metroid with at LEAST one more character (What is it with all you guys and Ridely? The Ridley are a species, not one singular character)
Declone Wolf in a way to stop the complaining and add Krystal to keep the lady lovers at bay
Give the Trainer some different pokemon (add Bayleaf and Blazken)
Focus on the Good/Evil and bring Mewtwo back OR replace both him and Lucario with an Evil pokemon from the Sinnoh series.
Keep Fire Emblem Characters as they were or add Lyn for another girl
Remove Snake or Remove Both Sonic and Snake
Sonic Stays? Add Knuckles and Shadow [ <--Not a Fan] (Tails Assist Trophy) Give Sonic a better moveset
Keep Jigglypuff or Replace him/her (Idk) with a WTF core fighter character (Tyrogue/Machop)
Open Slots for new characters (Rayman, Bomberman, Vietiful Joe, Little Mac, Japan Only, etc)
Capcom Guys: Megaman (of Course!) I like MMX better but he can be an AT,see if Street Fighter wants to be involved (Ryu or Ryu/Ken)
Include a reasonable character from Square Enix (Crono, NOT Cloud or Sora)
Realize that although Banjo Kazooie was Nintendo/Rare at first, it will most likely NOT happen
Lastly, if your gonna include Teh Snake, ya gots to Has teh Crash!

Remember, NINTENDO ALL STARS! all others are guests for a season.

 

[Arcadenik]

Well, all right. I suppose Ike COULD come back. Maybe I might have to main Jigglypuff once again in SSB4 IF she comes back... it is just that I always preferred Meowth over Jigglypuff. I like Jigglypuff as a playable character but I just wanted to play as Meowth in a Smash game and not just in a Pokemon game. I wouldn't mind an "all 1st gen Pokemon" roster with all the later gen Pokemon apppearing in stages and Pokeballs. Those 1st gen Pokemon appear in later gen games anyway so there is really no alienating the fans of later gens.

You know what? I don't understand how Mewtwo could have programming issues in Brawl when he worked just fine in Melee. It makes me wonder if he was originally added in Brawl and later replaced with Lucario after Sakurai saw that Lucario had the most votes out of all Pokemon on the Brawl poll. The same goes for Roy and Ike.

 

[ScoobyCafe]

Since we're back on the character suggestion wagon, I'm gonna make a quick roster--my first roster in this thread, I believe.


Likelihood ratings legend:

-Green: High
-Yellow: Moderate
-Red: Low

Super Mario
Mario
Luigi
Peach
Bowser

1. Bowser Jr: I feel as though he will definitely be the next Mario character.
   
   
2. Geno: I believe his chances are a bit above moderate, honestly, but the obstacles he's faced with kinda makes it difficult for me to outright say he'll be in.
   
   
3. *Toad: He's low moderate. Change Peach's special, similarly to how Mario got FLUDD, then he could appear.

Legend of Zelda
Link
Zelda/Sheik
Ganondorf
Toon LinK

1. Toon Zelda/Tetra: I believe this makes sense. Sure, we'll be seeing another Zelda technically, but hopefully her moveset won't be a carbon copy. Plus, Tetra!
   
   
2. Midna: I think some people here underestimate her chances of appearing. She has what I call the "Sheik Factor" going for her, in that she appears in one game, however, is quite popular.
   
   
3. *Tingle: Though some people hate him, I honestly don't believe the majority would mind his appearance in the slightest. Still, I think his chances of appearing are low moderate.

Metroid
Samus
Zero Suit Samus

1. Ridley: Pretty much the only major Metroid character left who isn't playable yet.

Pokemon
Pikachu
Jiggs
Pokemon Trainer
Lucario

1. Mewtwo: Popular, major pokemon character, who I see coming back easily.
   
2. ???: 5th generation Pokemon... yeah.

Donkey Kong
DK
Diddy

1. King K. Rool: Major villain of the Donkey Kong series, appearing in many games.
   
   
2. Dixie: Had I not known about her allegedly being planned for SSBB, I would've said her chances were moderate. I do see her appearing in SSB4.

F-Zero
Captain Falcon

1. Samurai Goroh: He's essentially to Falcon what Wolf is to Fox, i.e. the rivalry is pretty much the same. He's a major F-zero character and a relatively popular one.

Star Fox
Fox
Falco
Wolf

1. Krystal: I know some people see her as the Shadow the Hedgehog or Silver of the Star Fox series and hate her for it, but a lot of people seem to like her, furries and all.

Yoshi's Island
Yoshi

1. Baby Bros: Again, I feel a lot of people here underestimate their chances. The Yoshi franchise I believe is much like F-Zero, in that it hasn't seen a new character... ever. The Baby Bros. would bring something new to the table if they appear.

Kirby
Kirby
Meta Knight
King Dedede

Fire Emblem
Marth
Ike

1. Roy: Solid moderate? On the one hand, he seems to be fairly popular and I wouldn't mind him coming back with a new moveset. On the other hand, understanding why he was in Melee in the first place, I kinda doubt we're gonna see him again. =/
   
   
2. ???: There's a new Fire Emblem crossover game in the making; if the game has it's own protagonist, then him/her could very well appear in SSB4.

Pikmin
Olimar

1. ???: What are the chances of Pikmin 3 introducing a new character, who is unique, and people like? If we see such a character, then yeah... definitely wouldn't mind.

WarioWare
Wario

1. *Mona: Popluar, major character who appeared in about all of the the WarioWare games.
   
   
2. *Jimmy T: The same as Mona. I myself could see both joining SSB4 honestly, but it'll likely be a either-or situation. I think whoever has the better moveset potential might decide who joins.

Mother/Earthbound
Ness
Lucas

1. Pokey: I like how he appears in both Earthbound and Mother 3 as a villain. Quite popular, plus he's an awesome character.

Famicom/Retro
Ice Climbers
Pit
R.O.B

1. Takamaru: Sakurai loves the game and the character. He's been appearing more and more as of late, recently appearing in Samurai Warriors 3 as, I believe, a playable character. He could very well appear in SSB4.
   
   
2. Sukapon: Sukapon and Takamaru I believe are high moderate characters. Sukapon appears in Joy Mech Fight, Nintendo's very first fighting game. He was also planned for Melee, so I've heard. I can easily see him and Takamaru joining the other Famicom/Retro characters.

Game & Watch
Mr. Game & Watch


3rd Party
Sonic
Snake

1. Megaman: No-brainer. He's most likely going to appear in SSB4.
   
   
2. Chocobo: Square Enix's definitive mascot. Not much else I can say about Chocobo, it'll likely appear if Sakurai approaches SE or vice versa.
   
   
3. *Banjo-Kazooie: This character I'm honestly indifferent about, but I do see him appearing on many character suggestions. He's rather popular, and appeared first on a Nintendo console. He could appear.

Debut Nintendo Franchises

1. Andy (Nintendo Wars): It's long overdo for a Wars character to appear in Smash. I'm sure we'll see one, namely Andy (face of Wars series) in SSB4.
   
   
2. Isaac (Golden Sun): He's like Ness, i.e. considered to be the face of his fairly successful series, plus he's popular to boot.
   
   
3. Little Mac (Punch-Out!!): Also a no-brainer, he's definitely going to appear.
   
   
4. Saki (Sin & Punishment): His chances are pretty darn solid, I'd say. With his appearance in SSBB and a sequel to the successful S&P about to release here, I think he has a safe bet of appearing.
   
   
5. Stafy (Densetsu no Stafy): Insanely popular in Japan, and now a bit more recognizable in America, courtesy of SSBB and his own game. He's also a safe bet.
   
   
6. Lip (Puzzle League): Lip I feel has a high moderate chance of appearing. With the Puzzle League series being quite successful, the amount of references Smash Bros. make to the games, and so on, I think the next step is to make Lip playable.
   
   
7. Mii (Wii): Here's the thing with Mii. The series of games they star in sells like hot cakes and they're enormously popular, no exaggeration. I don't see Mii being a smasher like all the other characters per se, but I do see them fighting in Smash. Remember the custom car making in F-Zero GX? That's how I see Mii's working, with a 'create a smasher' mode or something, where you buy and download predetermined specials and moves, accessories, costumes, etc.
   
   
8. Ray (Custom Robo): He's a solid moderate character. It really depends on the demand for this character. I personally would like him to appear.

Characters Total:

-Green: 51
-Yellow (No Asterisk): 65

Opinions?

 

[Arcadenik]

You got to be kidding me... Geno is moderately higher than Toad???

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Well, all right. I suppose Ike COULD come back. Maybe I might have to main Jigglypuff once again in SSB4 IF she comes back... it is just that I always preferred Meowth over Jigglypuff. I like Jigglypuff as a playable character but I just wanted to play as Meowth in a Smash game and not just in a Pokemon game. I wouldn't mind an "all 1st gen Pokemon" roster with all the later gen Pokemon apppearing in stages and Pokeballs. Those 1st gen Pokemon appear in later gen games anyway so there is really no alienating the fans of later gens.

Hey, we all have our characters we want to play as regardless of not 100% Clear thoughts on what sakurai thinks. I'm pretty sure everyone active in this thread knows mine with Claus and ChocoSlime (Or generally: FF Character), and in a way, a Golden Sun character.

As for an all 1st gen roster; I dunno. I guess the newest poster boy and 4-5 1st gens would do fine. (Just like in brawl except with more 1st gens)

Also speaking of stages, you should join the stage discussion social group since I saw you posted a stage list a while ago.

You know what? I don't understand how Mewtwo could have programming issues in Brawl when he worked just fine in Melee. It makes me wonder if he was originally added in Brawl and later replaced with Lucario after Sakurai saw that Lucario had the most votes out of all Pokemon on the Brawl poll. The same goes for Roy and Ike.

He didn't really work just fine in melee; His character was rather buggy (Just play as him: Compare it to the other characters) and to rework that completely for brawl probably was like a "Meh, hey, we'll do it in the next game. Fans still have all those other pokemon"

Of course, all in all, we'll never have a TRUE Accurate answer. All we know is that he did think about Mewtwo and Roy at one point, and apparently more-so than the other two (Mainly due to the aparent victory themes)

If Geno (SMRPG) is in it ther must be Paper Mario

Why? The two aren't even actually connected

King K.Rool is a definite Go! and Dixie can be an Assist Trophy (or not!)

Funky Kong for AT?

Add Bowser Junior
Rep F-Zero and Metroid with at LEAST one more character

Bowser Jr would be a welcomed add to the mario series.
Samurai Goroh and Ridley. I think with ridley everyone means by the one that killed samus's parents.

Declone Wolf in a way to stop the complaining and add Krystal to keep the lady lovers at bay

Give him a different final smash and make the B Moves more different, then hopefully people will start to see that he isn't as much of a clone. Krystal is also fine (Well, not for that reason)

Give the Trainer some different pokemon (add Bayleaf and Blazken)

Why? And no.

Focus on the Good/Evil and bring Mewtwo back OR replace both him and Lucario with an Evil pokemon from the Sinnoh series.

1)Yes, would be nice.
2)No.

Keep Fire Emblem Characters as they were or add Lyn for another girl

No. Add in the newest protaginist with Marth/Ike makes more sense (Or roy)

Remove Snake or Remove Both Sonic and Snake

No; Also those two depend on legal rights.

Sonic Stays? Add Knuckles and Shadow [ <--Not a Fan] (Tails Assist Trophy) Give Sonic a better moveset[/quoet]
Why add a supporting third-party character when there's other deserving companies? He doesn't need a new side-kick.

Keep Jigglypuff or Replace him/her (Idk) with a WTF core fighter character (Tyrogue/Machop)

1st idea is fine, 2nd idea in that is unneeded.

Open Slots for new characters (Rayman, Bomberman, Vietiful Joe, Little Mac, Japan Only, etc)

3rd parties, and uh...
Rayman - I don't really know about ubisoft here, so yeah.
Bomberman - Isn't hudson apparently teamed up with Capcom or is this more of FMOI Forgetting who owns what? I don't really know; Wouldn't mind him.
VJ - Megaman screws up his chances. :V
Japan Only - That isn't a character. Specific ideas please.

Capcom Guys: Megaman (of Course!) I like MMX better but he can be an AT,see if Street Fighter wants to be involved (Ryu or Ryu/Ken)

No, just have Megaman for capcom.

Include a reasonable character from Square Enix (Crono, NOT Cloud or Sora)

Finally, something that's straight-foward again. Anyways, for Square Enix, I've said this before (Well, geno is debateable due to copyrights but If It's as similar as say DDR:Mario Mix to Konami...) - Final Fantasy is Square Enix's biggest series, and since It doesn't have a true mascot that contributed well to Nintendo (Only cloud but that was a cameo) The Black Mage or a Chocobo by far make the most sense

...Or the ChocoSlime idea which I still need to work on getting Square's (And more afn) Attention about a SE Rep.

Realize that although Banjo Kazooie was Nintendo/Rare at first, it will most likely NOT happen

Rare is with Microsoft, the dude who posted that already said it was unrealistic.

Lastly, if your gonna include Teh Snake, ya gots to Has teh Crash!

No you don't. Horrible logic.

Remember, NINTENDO ALL STARS! all others are guests for a season.

Why? The guests still have appeared on a nintendo console (Sega seems to give the wii a lot of support, and Snake helped breach the doors for third-parties in the first place) The only reason I see Is if a legal situation happens between the two or both companies don't care to ask the other to use said character again.

 

[ScoobyCafe]

You got to be kidding me... Geno is moderately higher than Toad???

Yeah.

How about telling me what you think about the entire list instead of darting towards Geno.

 

[Arcadenik]

I have little to no objections to the entire list. I pretty much agree with most of them except Geno. That's why I only talked about Geno.

 

[DekuBoy]

Nice list, but I'm surprised you left out Black Shadow.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

@Scoobz Roster
Mario: Bowser Junior- I personally don't like him, but I could deal
Toad- Favorite of the three you gave
Geno- Don't see it happening, sorry

Zelda
Toons- Yes.
Midna- No. Personal Bias towards Twlight Princess, plus she's a basivally imp-navi
Tingle- Meh. Don't care either way

Metroid
Ridley- Meh, why not

Pokemon
I don't see Lucario, Mewtwo, AND 5h gen appearing. 2 of the 3

DK
Rool- Yes.
Dixie- Yes regardless of how it's done

F-Zero
Goro- Sure

Star Fox
Krystal- NO. again, personal bias, but I just really hate her

Yoshi
Baby Bros.-Don't see this one happening

Pikmin
???- I guess I'd have to see ??? to decide...

WarioWare
Mona- Rather see Ashley or Syrup
Jimmy T- See Above

Mother
Pokey- I know nothing of Mother, no opinion here

Retro
Takamaru- Don't care, sure he can appear...
Sakupon- No, I'd presonally like to see someone else (Balloon Fighter/ Mach Rider please)

3rd Parties
Megaman- Yes.
Chocobo- I prefer Slime
Banjo- Believe he's first party Microsoft now

New guys
Andy-Yes.
Issac- Yes.
Lil Mac- Meh, sure
Saki- Meh, sure
Sarfy- If we have to >.>
Lip- Meh, sure
Mii- Unsure, depedns on how it's implemented
Ray- Sure

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Yeah.

How about telling me what you think about the entire list instead of darting towards Geno.

Overall; It's actually very reasonable, but commenting on some parts:

Super Mario

I find this agreeable; Except, we have to see one thing: What sakurai thinks makes a series complete. We don't really have any concrete info to say that Bowser Jr will for sure be in, but If a 5th mario rep is to be added, I feel as well It'll be him (Geno is very hard to predict because despite poll results, Sakurai would have to talk with Square Enix, and overall that company is unpredictable.

Legend of Zelda

Generally; I think what I think of the mario series, but even moreso on here. The only one that seems pretty likely is Toon Zelda, and we really don't know of what sakurai thinkks.

Donkey Kong

Generally don't know but I could easily see a third rep budging out of it. A fourth? Has enough viability to, just depends.

F-Zero

Black Shadow has a very slight chance of the case that Sakurai does similar to what he did for kirby (Give it most/all of It's important characters out of the blue) Of course, I really doubt F-Zero is to get three reps but since you're listing all possibilities...

Yoshi's Island

I don't really see the need. Baby Mario hasn't actually done a lot in the actual game and is essentially, Mario again. Kamek just makes stuff bigger. (Mainly bosses) But eh, every possibility...

Kirby

Ladies and Gentlemen; The only series with more than one plausible character that most of us will agree on.

Fire Emblem

There's a FE Cross-over game? I need to hear more.

Anyways; Agreed, of course, possibility Ike gets removed.

Pikmin

That is if that happens. For now, I see Olimar staying solo.

WarioWare

SYRUP...PAWNCH (Well, this one seems to only acknowledge WarioWare...For now)

But really; I don't know here. It does have the sales and enough recognizability to earn a second PC. It all comes down to sakurai. I'm on 50/50 with this currently.

Mother/Earthbound

Needs moar Claus love. Sakurai has acknolwedged both characters, but with Pokey as a boss, I really don't know. I'd personally enjoy to see both in the future long down the road (Obviously with my preference of Claus still)

Oh, and props to you for putting another one. Mother truly has some original characters but I guess people want to see a more shift in focus for a while (As do I a bit)

Famicom/Retro

...Is so unpredictable (Especially with melee "PIT CAN'T WORK" And then brawl "WAIT...HE CAN") - I mean, who thought up the melee retro's asides from the dev team before? Or the brawl retro's?

3rd Party

Banjo ain't getting in unless Rare's copyrights change. The other two are however plausible; It depends on interest of Sakurai and interest of Fans...And interest of the company.

Also you forgot Travis at least (Suda 51 wants him in etc)

Debut Nintendo Franchises

As much as I'd like to say that we'll see a lot, after Isaac and Little Mac I really can't predict, and even those are rather dependent upon there new game. Here's hoping Golden Sun DS And S&P2 do well?

...Heck I generally find this pretty shaky in general.

Opinions?

Rather a lot of characters in Green, but most suggestions are pretty plausible (Or "Unique/Differing")

 

[n88]

@Shino

Midna may be imp-Navi, but she's POPULAR, something Navi lacked. Ever been to wantmidnaback.com?

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

@Shino

Midna may be imp-Navi, but she's POPULAR, something Navi lacked. Ever been to wantmidnaback.com?

Can;t say that I have. Fine, she's popular. I'll just keep her off any list I ever make because I very much dislike her and Twilight Princess.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

...Still, where is this about a Fire Emblem Crossover game? Cafe has peeked my interest.

 

[n88]

Can;t say that I have. Fine, she's popular. I'll just keep her off any list I ever make because I very much dislike her and Twilight Princess.

Fair enough. But I have to warn you, there is a large coalition of people who, if they have their way, will see Midna become a recuring character in Zelda games. I think she may be the next Geno (Random, not all that important character to become popular)

@Trekoops

Seems like Toise has been telling us about some FE crossover almost every tiem FE comes up. Try asking him.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

EDIT:
Too avoid arguements, Opinons moved elsewhere.

 

[ScoobyCafe]

@Shino

Midna is honestly the only reason I didn't throw my copy of TP out on the streets. Her personality made the game a bit more bearable. =P

I have little to no objections to the entire list. I pretty much agree with most of them except Geno. That's why I only talked about Geno.

Well, I'm glad you liked the majority of the list. =)

Nice list, but I'm surprised you left out Black Shadow.

Eh, I had him up there with an asterisk, but got rid of him. Not really a fan of Black Shadow.

I don't really see the need. Baby Mario hasn't actually done a lot in the actual game and is essentially, Mario again. Kamek just makes stuff bigger. (Mainly bosses) But eh, every possibility...

Not in the game they originate from, but in the Mario sub series. Young Link is essential Link in Melee, but as long as he plays differently, then I wouldn't mind. Kamek could be a mini-boss.

There's a FE Cross-over game? I need to hear more.

Anyways; Agreed, of course, possibility Ike gets removed.

Tohru Narihiro mentioned in an interview that he'd like to make a FE game including characters from other FE games, i.e. an "all-star" Fire Emblem. I can't find the interview, but he did indeed say that (Kinda wish I saved it).

SYRUP...PAWNCH (Well, this one seems to only acknowledge WarioWare...For now)

I don't think that's gonna change. Make Syrup a boss.

Needs moar Claus love. Sakurai has acknolwedged both characters, but with Pokey as a boss, I really don't know. I'd personally enjoy to see both in the future long down the road (Obviously with my preference of Claus still)

Oh, and props to you for putting another one. Mother truly has some original characters but I guess people want to see a more shift in focus for a while (As do I a bit)

I was going to put Ninten up there, 'cause I feel he'd complete the Mother/Earthbound series full circle. But since most of you don't want to acknowledge that he could be re-designed like Pit, Pokey was the next best thing, I thought.

Masked Man I feel could make some sort of appearance, I just wouldn't want him playable.

...Is so unpredictable (Especially with melee "PIT CAN'T WORK" And then brawl "WAIT...HE CAN") - I mean, who thought up the melee retro's asides from the dev team before? Or the brawl retro's?

I think it's a bit more predictable now than it was before. Seeing Pit, he really shouldn't have an excuse not to add Sukapon next time around.

Also you forgot Travis at least (Suda 51 wants him in etc)

He'd be 10x more out-of-place than Snake; Suda 51 really needs to beg for that. Fix Sakurai breakfast every morning, then maybe.

As much as I'd like to say that we'll see a lot, after Isaac and Little Mac I really can't predict, and even those are rather dependent upon there new game. Here's hoping Golden Sun DS And S&P2 do well?

I have to wonder what characters you thought would get in during the time Brawl was in development, lol. You should try to think bigger. I'm like goldilocks, that is my expectations are not too high or low. In my opinion, anyway.

 

[Pieman0920]

There is no FE-Crossover game in the making....yet. The developers of FE11 expressed interest in the idea, along with the prospect of a completely new game for FE12. Their decision seemed like it was going to be based on the sales of FE11, but no word has come up about which one they picked, or if there's going to be another FE game at all.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Not in the game they originate from, but in the Mario sub series. Young Link is essential Link in Melee, but as long as he plays differently, then I wouldn't mind. Kamek could be a mini-boss.

Young Link has that whole different time line stuff (And If not, remember, melee was rushed) I really do agree on the kamek mini-boss. Just really after playing so many of these games, It seems logical just to keep the yoshi series as is unless Kamek actually got a role.

Tohru Narihiro mentioned in an interview that he'd like to make a FE game including characters from other FE games, i.e. an "all-star" Fire Emblem. I can't find the interview, but he did indeed say that (Kinda wish I saved it).

...You got my hopes up. Oh well; At least I still have dissidia.

I don't think that's gonna change. Make Syrup a boss.

Assist trophy, please. I really don't think It'll change as well but I'm confused on why Wario Land has been so ignored. Whatever; as I kinda personally prefer some of the WW Characters anyways.

I was going to put Ninten up there, 'cause I feel he'd complete the Mother/Earthbound series full circle. But since most of you don't want to acknowledge that he could be re-designed like Pit, Pokey was the next best thing, I thought.

List Masked Man and Ninten up anyways; I actually do acknowledge ninten, It just doesn't seem like a likeable idea for many reasons unlike the two mother villians (...That AREN'T Giygas)

I think it's a bit more predictable now than it was before. Seeing Pit, he really shouldn't have an excuse not to add Sukapon next time around.

Keyword: A bit. I'm just saying It's really out in the open. Here's hoping for Sukapon.

He'd be 10x more out-of-place than Snake; Suda 51 really needs to beg for that. Fix Sakurai breakfast every morning, then maybe.

...You have that image stuck in my head. It still makes more sense unlike Banjo.

I have to wonder what characters you thought would get in during the time Brawl was in development, lol. You should try to think bigger. I'm like goldilocks, that is my expectations are not too high or low. In my opinion, anyway.

...Oh god, pre-brawl... But anyways, on request...

Hmm...Pretty hard to retrace memories considering I never actually wrote a roster that was purely mine until the VERY Near end of brawl speculation. I can however tell you this:
-Back then, I actually was on the "Ness being out" Supporting side. Oh god I remember how hyped I was for Claus as oppossed to now. :laug: (This one was false; However Lucas still got in and I remember wanting him in also, so uh...Take that 5% of Doubters! )
-I actually found every newcomer on the brawl roster a plausible one at one point or another, discluding the Retro's but I kinda always thought Sakurai would throw another "Wild Card" At us.
...Oh wait, forgot snake. There's that (This one came true)
-Wasn't as big of a supporter of most/all characters returning. I was pretty minimalistic when it came to this. I was pretty questionable on most, which brought me to a bunch of "What ifs" Then realizing PT Has 3 movesets, I thought that there's a possible chances that Sakurai leaves out mewtwo that time around (This one came true)
-Was actually kinda biased against Bowser Jr...Which is odd since he's one of my most supported characters. (This one came true; Well actually, mario just got a -1 :V)
-Saw representation pitched moreso on just sakurai than importance. (This is still debateable)
-Saw AC, GS, and Pikmin probably the only new series represented in character/stage form (Well, sorta true: AC Didn't get a rep, Pikmin got a stage and character, Golden Sun got screwed out)
-I thought the journals would make a heavy impact, mainly the 7 I like to call the "Actual Forbidden 7" In my book that had the most mentions (False...In a way. While 3 of 7 characters got in and 3 got acknowledged in some form, Sakurai had his choices way back in 05)

Overall: I keep my expectations to a certain point (And keep making more of a balance of that) - Don't really know how to put this but I'm just in the middle. My more "Free will" Side is shown by the roster pic I made, and my Questionable side is shown with me when generally discussing rosters. It's not really about my expectations, but more on just being questionable to a certain point. I was actually always pretty questionable after Melee, but the more and more discussions come up, the more and more floats around

Yet in an awkward aspect, the more discussions I have on this, the more that most of the Smash 4 roster won't be a surprise much.

EDIT: Especially considering that I still play brawl. (And melee/64 pretty often too) It's just still fun (And sometimes very entertaining. See: Jody Summer) to chat here with discussions and whatnot while I'm on my laptop...I mainly lurk around the other boards here.

 

[NeverFiniteX]

Koopa

Thats a bit to follow but I do have legit reasons for what I said. It seems that you are taking what I said more seriously than I thought you would.

Geno- Unless I am mistaken, Geno is from Super Mario RPG, correct? I wouldn't go as far to say that the Paper Mario series was a remake, rather the continuation of the ideals of an RPG Franchise. I don't think that it would be too unlikely to have him in as a character because his moveset would be totally different than that of Mario's. I am actually not sure why he wasn't an AT . Understand that characters from RPG games are gateway characters for unneeded characters. Example, if Cloud was included, then people would want Sora, then Mickey, (Btw, I do remember what you said about FF not having a definite protagonist). What do you think about Crono, perhaps as an AT?

Ridely- He is a badass character, but from a logical standpoint his inclusion has its faults
The size of the creature (He is getting bigger as the series progresses, Other M promo for example).
He is not a particular person, unless I am mistaken. Unlike tLoZ, Metroid follows a linear storyline, how does he keep returning?
He is not a main boss, persay.
He would have a rather complex engine
Ridley did well as a Brawl Boss, so his inclusion beyond that isn't necessary.
If he is included, then a character like Dark Samus should be included as well.

I still wonder why most people aren't satisfied with some characters just being bosses, there are several possibilities there; The Final Boss in Golden Sun (1) For example.

Samuarai Goroh- I guess thats cool, I get the sense that his AT didn't do him much justice, (*Isaac) . I do think that Black Shadow might do well to inherit Ganny's Clone moveset.

Bayleaf and Blazeken- I don't see why its a bad idea, from my knowledge, Bayleaf was very popular at the beginning of the 2nd Pokemon series. In some ways, more popular than Ivysaur; even Bulbasaur was more popular than Ivysaur. Blazeken is actually a fighting pokemon. Their inclusion follows the Tri 'Starter'+ Evolution Pokwmon Gimmick the the Trainer brought to Brawl (Squirtle- Water, Ivysaur- Grass, Charizard- Fire). Trust me, I've gone over the logic of Trainer involvement and this is the best solution (since there are four series of pokemon and not three). The 'Red' Trainer Strongly resembles Ash, who unlike the gold trainer, is involved in the series. We don't need 50+ playable pokemon in Smash. If anything, an new trainer should be from the antagonist "Teams" (Rocket, Aqua, etc) or the Elite four (Lance and his Dragonite for example).

Sinnoh Series- Nintendo keeps up with the times for marketing purposes, who then would be involved from that series? I would rather not have Both Lucario and Mewtwo, I'm just considering that the game should be more antagonist/protagonist, that is if their storymode is 1000x better than the SSE.

Lyn- I get you, but like the golden sun Ds protagonist, we may not know how popular the Fire emblem protagonist is or how popular the game will be. As for Roy, although I do like the idea, I think that he should be replaced by Eliwood (the Father of Roy) or Lyn (another main protagonist). Otherwise, just leave FE characters as is. Ike is a good enough addition.

Sonic & Snake- VERY debateable. From a personal standpoint, I am a fan of sonic and I wanted to see him around smash. From a logical standpoint Sonic fits in WAY better than snake. Snake was a huge shocker for me. I don't like the idea that these two characters are even comparable, if Snake wasn't all maxed out as a player, I'm sure that he would be the first to go. How is it, that a character that has very miniscule relations to Nintendo becomes one of the best characters in the Smash franchise? Snake doesn't need any more popularity or marketing than he already has, I'm sure that the release of MGS4 would have done well even if Snake had not been involved in Smash . Koopa, your opinion isn't the only one that matters here and its not like everyone who bought Brawl went back to the drawing board and said "Wait a minute! Sonic is from SEGA!" He fits in rather nicely. Yet, I guarantee that a core Playstation Jockey that had never even played smash before, would agree that Snake's presence was questionable. There are many arguments that could arise from this topic, all I know is that Sonic deserved better presentation than he did and if he has to go, I think that Snake should go too. Wait a minute, with your Logic, wouldn't that make Marth a third Party character? I figure that Marth, Ness, C.Falcon, and Sonic are more on the Lines of Second Party. I don't know how you can say that you wouldn't want to see Knuckles in there...

*Snake comes in an makes the francise his Beyotch, "I'm Done Here" and leaves

Puff- Guys, I honestly HATE this character and I think that three games of his/her involvement is plenty. IMO, it seems that most of these characters are maxed out only because no one would pay much attention to them (*Looks at Peach). Watch me get major flamed for ragging on the Puffman. I get the sense that you want the game to be more of a melting pot of characters and not just a focus on "Fighting" as a genre. Its all good, I could see why, but then that opinion just kills the idea of having a characte like Blazekin in the game, which is a slap in the face for those who think like me (which isn't new, judging by my luck on forums)

"Japan Only - That isn't a character" (Koopa), I have a knack for being rude sometimes, so I must say... OBVIOUSLY! No offense ;D
I just mean characterZ that are popular in Japan, so I guess not Japan ONLY (how do you think Marth got thrown in the mix?)

Rayman- uh... Raving Rabbids? I think at the Rabbids should be an AT of sorts, seeing as the game really utilized the Wii's engine and the 1st game was quite popular.
Bomberman- Idk, I don't think this one requires too much thought.
Bomberman and Vietiful Joe- So all we need is an OK from Capcom then, these are all popular titles present on the Nintendo Console. I don't know how you can flaunt Snake's credibility with his one major NES title and disregard Ryu's (Street Fighter II?)

Banjo Kazooie- Unrealistic only because Rare is with Microsoft now, which just fails by the way. IMO Nintendo and Rare need each other (*Latest Donkey Kong games)

Crash bandicoot- "Horrible Logic"? Ok now you are just being a douche, it was a pun a Snake being mostly PlayStation. Crash would fit a lot better than Snake too, IMO (I hope by now you realize that I dislike the idea Snake in Smash).

Unless I am mistaken, the Japanese title for Smash is Nintendo All Stars...So I'm not sure that I can give you much credit as a smash fan if you aren't aware of the idea behind the first smash. I highly advocate the idea that all (most) characters should be linked main characters in some way. I would go as far as to say that Megaman should have been right up there with the main Seven (12 minus secret characters and Yoshi [linked to mario] = 7) but you know, legal issues.

Man I have opinions don't I? "I'm not better than you, I just think different" (substantial) With that, my opinions aren't the only ones that matter here and neither are yours, don't hate, etc.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Thats a bit to follow but I do have legit reasons for what I said. It seems that you are taking what I said more seriously than I thought you would.

We're discussing as plausibility; I don't mean any offense (Just got bored during the types I typed in "logical" And PO'd at my internet)

Anyways, I'll be a bit more calm on these points as replying to them. (And not leaving a gigantic wall of text; keeping it simple)

Mario RPG stuff

But the thing is, as toise has stated, even If Paper Mario were to be a unique character, he doesn't really stand out from mario unlike Toon Link. With Mario around, it is not illogical to have Geno and not Paper Mario.

As for Final Fantasy: Yes, It's rather hard to decide with FF (Don't think I hate any of Square's other RPG's, love/have played most of the "Main/critically acclaimed as good" Titles) - Chrono as an AT Would mean more dealing with liscensing rights (Kinda why I'm now getting a bit questioned on the ChocoSlime idea that got popular in this thread) I however wouldn't mind Chrono as an AT. :V

Any character you add people will always want more, there's tons of examples out there I could use (Sonic!)

Metroid

I'm not a huge metroid fan, but just be careful as there's some pretty crazy metroid/ridley fans out there. :C

Anyways; He's a hugely requested character and with his story, the only important one left to metroid (Well, Dark Samus is sorta important from what I know, but I remember sakurai giving the thumbs down on that), and Metroid is becoming one of nintendo's more popular franchises outside of the big 3, so to not have Ridley would just be odd.

I still wonder why most people aren't satisfied with some characters just being bosses, there are several possibilities there; The Final Boss in Golden Sun (1) For example.

Because they wanted to actually play as them? But I like the golden sun idea.

Samuarai Goroh- I guess thats cool, I get the sense that his AT didn't do him much justice, like Isaac's. I do think that Black Shadow might do well to inherit Ganny's Clone moveset.

Yeah; Of course, with what we know from before, It's logical that Goroh would get in first but I am actually growing very fond of the idea of Black Shadow taking Ganny's moveset.

Bayleaf and Blazeken- I don't see why its a bad idea, from my knowledge, Bayleaf was very popular at the beginning of the 2nd Pokemon series. In some ways, more popular than Ivysaur; even Bulbasaur was more popular than Ivysaur. Blazeken is actually a fighting pokemon. Their inclusion follows the Tri 'Starter'+ Evolution Pokwmon Gimmick the the Trainer brought to Brawl (Squirtle- Water, Ivysaur- Grass, Charizard- Fire). Trust me, I've gone over the logic of Trainer involvement and this is the best solution (since there are four series of pokemon and not three). The 'Red' Trainer Strongly resembles Ash, who unlike the gold trainer, is involved in the series. We don't need 50+ playable pokemon in Smash. If anything, an new trainer should be from the antagonist "Teams" (Rocket, Aqua, etc) or the Elite four (Lance and his Dragonite for example).

To note about the Pokemon Trainer: I know Blazeken doesn't fall under this but the thing is, Pokemon Trainer heavily relates to his character in game, as in his first 3 poke he starts out with with the possible choices, thus why he has those 3 starters.

Sinnoh Series- Nintendo keeps up with the times for marketing purposes, who then would be involved from that series? I would rather not have Both Lucario and Mewtwo, I'm just considering that the game should be more antagonist/protagonist, that is if their storymode is 1000x better than the SSE.

Oh, I thought shinno meant something obscure, but anyways we really haven't seen enough. I mean during melee, who expected they'd be in the fourth generation by the next game? So we really don't know the absolute future.

Lyn- I get you, but like the golden sun Ds protagonist, we may not know how popular the Fire emblem protagonist is or how popular the game will be. As for Roy, although I do like the idea, I think that he should be replaced by Eliwood or Lyn. Otherwise, just left out. Ike is good enough.

The DS Protaginist is more of a different case, since FE Has the tendancy to add on whoever is next, while overall in the series even with the new guy around, Isaac is still the most important to the series.

Sonic & Snake- VERY debateable.

I just personally feel people don't give enough respect to snake, and while he DOES Have a chance at leaving, Snake still did a very important thing to smash regardless of his importance outside by opening the doors for 3rd party characters.

Puff

Regardless of If you like her, she's one of the most popular pokemon in the book, and she is a sticking point to every smash game.

Japan Only

I think I didn't make myself clear: Just mention some suggestions you have under this. I'd be interested to hear.

Rayman- uh... Raving Rabbids? I think at the Rabbids should be Some sort of AT's
Bomberman- Idk, I don't think this one requires too much thought.
Bomberman and Vietiful Joe- So all we need is an OK from Capcom then, these are all popular titles present on the Nintendo Console. I don't know how you can flaunt Snake's credibility with his one major NES title and disregard Ryu's (Street Fighter II?)

I never said snake was the most logical konami rep, but he got in the "Begging" Way. One third-pparty rep should go to every series, because If you had anymore (For let's say, uh, sega?) Then one company ends up getting paid more than another. Megaman is the more important one to capcom, and the more requested one.

Banjo Kazooie- Unrealistic only because Rare is with Microsoft now, which just fails by the way. IMO Nintendo and Rare need each other (*Latest Donkey Kong games)

In your opinion. Sadly, liscense rights will continue to disagree unless this changes, regardless of our opinions on rare.

Unless I am mistaken, the Japanese title for Smash is Nintendo All Stars...So I'm not sure that I can give you much credit as a smash fan. I am high advocate of the idea that all (most) characters should main characters in some way. I would go as far as to say that Megaman should have been right up there with the main Seven (12 minus secret characters and Yoshi [linked to mario] = 7) but you know, legal issues.

Man I have opinions don't I? "I'm not better than you, I just think different" (substantial)

It's fine to have opinions; People have different opinions. Your other post just kinda had me wrong about them with not much explinations as oppossed to this one and my first post directed at you was me being pretty lazy.

As for me being a smash fan: Oh, no. I am a smash fan, It's just that I see Third-Parties fine as long as the company has contributed enough (Snake's case is different, as in opening the doors) - I mean, they've appeared on a nintendo console before, so as long as we get no other characters that aren't totally like snake (Or not that many) and just 2 at most per game, then I'm completely fine with it. (Give me a Square Enix character and I'll be filled with joy. ) It's just that they aren't
1)Owned by Ninty
2)Possibly have been on another console before.

 

[Pieman0920]

But the thing is, as toise has stated, even If Paper Mario were to be a unique character, he doesn't really stand out from mario unlike Toon Link. With Mario around, it is not illogical to have Geno and not Paper Mario.

This doesn't make sense. Toon Link is Adult Link is Link. While you have the slight technicality that they are decendents of each other, they are still all Link. Really, Paper Mario and regular Mario have more differences than Toon Link and Link despite the qualifier that they are technically not the same person. Heck, back in Melee we had Dr. Mario and Y. Link who actually were the same people.

And how would he not stand out? He's 2D. He has the property of paper, and could easily have things like helpers make him completely unique from any other character.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

This doesn't make sense. Toon Link is Adult Link is Link. While you have the slight technicality that they are decendents of each other, they are still all Link. Really, Paper Mario and regular Mario have more differences than Toon Link and Link despite the qualifier that they are technically not the same person. Heck, back in Melee we had Dr. Mario and Y. Link who actually were the same people.

And how would he not stand out? He's 2D. He has the property of paper, and could easily have things like helpers make him completely unique from any other character.

There's the LoZ Timeline saying those are different, also melee was rushed. But anyways, stand out as in - Do people really see him as a new mario (As in generally)? Of course, by trophies I suppose you could say Sakurai sees it as technically a different character, but Toon Link has a Pajama trophy, so yeah.

Don't get me wrong still. If he appeared I'd play as him a lot even If he didn't fit my playstyle.

 

[NeverFiniteX]

My bad on the long messages, it seemed that you took qoutes from my last message and made your message seem as long.

Paper- Not so much that people see him as a new mario, but a great addition to the franchise (his games being 8-10/10). Also Toon Link is essentially the concept of the Old NES/SNES Link so it is important to have him present. With that said, he should be the ONLY "toonified" LoZ character present.

Ridely-It is a strange concept to fathom, playing as Ridely. I rather enjoyed fighting both versions of him as a boss. What I really meant was on the lines of those who want to play as some unreasonable characters like Robotnik, who would do fine as a boss (Sonic Unleashed Openning Cutscene).

Trainer- I think with all the Pokemon Ash has had (and even given up) it might be safe to say that the originals are good for Brawl, but then ash/trainer moves on to win tournaments, strategizing his pokemon (I would think SSB4 would be the last). Lol I thought that Honen would be the end of Pokemon, I've lost interest since the third GBA series, although I lost interest in the TV series after the second series.
What do you think about antagonist trainers?

Puff- I figured I would be recieved that way, its not that I just hate her character, its just that after Melee, she kind of sucked. Its not like I don't expect her to return, but I wouldn't mind if she did or didn't.

Japan- I think of things in a logical sense. I've looked around several forums and seen this as a pattern. So I don't know whats Japan Only or not.

EDIT* I'm not really for including Grey Fox or Robo2k (whatever) but if they contribute well to nintendo, I figure that they should be involved. Yeah I don't even like Mr.G&W but I understand why he's there. I also think that many of the characters involved should be those that you could say their name and people recognize what you're talking about.

Banjo/Kazooie- One could dream I guess. It really sucks that it turned out that way, I've been longing for another decent Donkey Kong Game for a while now, I am not impressed so far.