[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[ToiseOfChoice]

Keep in mind Koops that I'm only concerned with SSB4 right now (since this is a roster, not a "who's who" for each series). Don't mix SSB5 in with this.

Essentially leaves us having the same opinion on him, fair enough...However you still need to play Golden Sun. I managed to go through F-Zero

Yeah yeah, on my to-do list since forever ago. I used to be big into RPGs but now I hate them. I'll force myself through some games now and then, FE in particular.

I'm impressed that you actually checked out GX though, most people don't have the patience for that game. Most of my friends saw me play it and they're like "...no, **** this."

Being honest here, while I see the importance in ROB And G&W, what truthfully made Ice Climbers and Pit "Above All other retro's"? The way I see It, It really depends on what Sakurai thinks, which is what we don't know. Flat-out deconfirming them, eh...

The Ice Climbers were specifically included to represent the classic NES era games (Excitebike and such). And that's it. Sakurai admits this himself, they're the only character(s) in Smash to symbolize something that they're indirectly affiliated with. The only ones actually "representing" anything.

G&W, Pit, and R.O.B. only represent themselves and the games they come from. All three are rather iconic and have well-known games (or in R.O.B.'s case, the peripheral). G&W was massive in its prime, everyone remembers the robot, and Pit was always popular everywhere.

Are Mike Jones and Muddy Mole popular or memorable? No, not really. There's a reason both those characters are considered very obscure and why nobody cares that they don't have more games. It certainly doesn't help that non-fans of their games aren't even remotely interested in them as individuals either.


Last thing I'll mention is that Sakurai likes it if a retro character pops up in a recent game. He's mentioned the GBA ports for Pit and Takamaru, pretty sure he said that if Takamaru showed up again in something he'd consider him for Smash (helps if that game isn't JP only too).

I know mario hoops but the other one? (Since you said two he wasn't in) Sir, you have peaked my interest.

Itadaki Street DS. It's JP only, and it has at least one song from SMRPG (the Mushroom Kingdom theme, click the 3 in that link under BGM). There's some videos of the game on YouTube if you're curious.

Also, piqued.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Yeah yeah, on my to-do list since forever ago. I used to be big into RPGs but now I hate them. I'll force myself through some games now and then, FE in particular.

I'm impressed that you actually checked out GX though, most people don't have the patience for that game. Most of my friends saw me play it and they're like "...no, **** this."

Yeah, long story short one of my friends has it as the place I'm staying at currently, so I decided to pick it up and start a new file. Turns out this and 64 got me into the series, but it is very rageworthy during certain parts.

Ah; I personally have a bit of problems clocking myself into an RPG Now these days unless It really hooks me in, anyways, I got both games for like 8$ At gamestop so It's really nothing to miss out on.

Stuff

Interesting; Suppose that's a "Point made" Then - Hoping the devs still figure out how to work out Sukapon.

Itadaki Street DS. It's JP only, and it has at least one song from SMRPG (the Mushroom Kingdom theme, click the 3 in that link under BGM). There's some videos of the game on YouTube if you're curious.

Dragon Quest and Mario? Wow, didn't even know this existed. I may end up importing this or the FF Vs DQ One; I'll have to do more research.

Also one more thing I want to discuss/touch up on since I saw your quote: (This one applies to more "The Futre" Than Smash 4, in regards)

Anyway, Jigglypuff belongs to an evolving series, the kind that doesn't have a recurring main cast (like FE and possibly Mother).

All sales casted to the side (And bias) I still don't know what will happen to Mother. Like does Sakurai see it only needing the representation that Fire Emblem has, as in Protaginists only? Will he throw in Ninten there? Or does he see Ninten useless and will in the future include Pokey (To go with ness; Especially since he'll probably be using his EB Mech) and Claus (Gee, guess who this goes with)

I mean, the way I see it, there's three routes with this series and It's future since It'll never have any other games:
1)Lucas and Ness - The two most popular protaginists, however unlike Pokemon (And possibly FE) I really doubt the choices to it are decided by a company. Of course, Sakurai could see it as similar as Fire Emblem, just keep it to these two and not see ninten interesting enough and call it a day for this series.

2)Lucas, Ness, and Ninten - The most doubtable of the three options If you cast everything else to the side, however this is pretty much similar to 1#, except him seeing ninten worthy enough as his own PC Slot instead of just an Alt costume or no rep at all. I do however remember Sakurai saying he isn't a fan of characters that look similar (Look at brawl's roster, not something as ridicjulous as that) And giving a thumb's down to Dark Samus.

3)Lucas, Ness, Claus, Pokey - This one I really don't know, but since we're discussing the future...
Ness has Pokey, Lucas has Claus; Seems to fit fine to me, except of course, Mother 1, which could just get some stage rep and an Alternative Costume. I would think that this is the most logical one in a very far future If the series isn't treated as Fire Emblem, as you have the two most important characters (...ASIDES FROM GIYGAS) From Mother 3 and Mother 2.


Discuss.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

All sales casted to the side (And bias) I still don't know what will happen to Mother. Like does Sakurai see it only needing the representation that Fire Emblem has, as in Protaginists only? Will he throw in Ninten there? Or does he see Ninten useless and will in the future include Pokey (To go with ness; Especially since he'll probably be using his EB Mech) and Claus (Gee, guess who this goes with)

You pretty much said it yourself. Without a Mother 4 or something from Sakurai, we can't immediately tell if this series is considered static or evolving. And I'm confident Ninten has no chance as he is right now (I recall an interview where Itoi said he designed Ness so that players can decide that they're playing as Ninten if they want to, he also said he considers them the same character).

Anyway, this is it:

1. The series is static; we have Ness and Lucas but we'll eventually get at least Porky and probably Claus on top of that someday down the line. This doesn't apply if Mother 4 eventually gets made and it has a new cast.

2. The series is evolving; we only get Ness and Lucas unless Itoi changes his mind and makes Mother 4 (and assuming the protagonist isn't a duplicate of either).


The only thing in particular that would lead me to believe it's static is Porky's appearance as a boss in Brawl. Why use him as a boss instead of someone or something from Zelda or DK or anything else? Or even a less storyline critical boss like Rayquaza and Petey? There was pretty much zero reason to have him there in particular, let alone being a boss-and-a-half. It's just too peculiar.


One more thing, Sakurai has stated that he doesn't let anyone else pick which characters to add (at least for Nintendo characters, not sure about 3rd parties). The various dev teams might potentially deny his choices, but they aren't telling him who to add.

 

[SmashChu]

Auto-Recovery
Um..training mode? They will notice a pattern when they spam the C-stick against a Cpu in any mode really. I can't belive that you guys are still tlalking about this, I'm sure that new players will catch on, if not, they can always trade in their game at the local Gamestop or something. I would say the complication of the game draws me in rather than push me away, the glory is found in the arena. I'd rather get owned in my best efforts than have the game do all my work for me.

Players hate training mode.

Again, no one wants to see new people enter. If given a crutch, they will like the game and become better. Tutorials and trainging are very boring. Players don't want to do that (this may be one reason why Smash is successful because I have to use Trainging all the time in tatsunoko vs capcom but never in Smash). Multiplayer games should be fun right off the bat, and they should make everyone want to play them. Auto-Recovery can solve both those dilemmas.

Nintendo's focus is growing the market and making new customers. This also means making controlling the game easier. Mario Kart Wii is very easy to control. If Smash is to keep up, it may need to do the same (NOTE:Despite strong sales, the game can not compare to other big Nintendo titles like Mario Kart Wii, so there is a lot of room for growth).

 

[Mario the Jumpman]

Hey guys, if Sakurai had to cut five characters from Smash 4, which ones would you vote for? I would choose ZSS, Sheik, and the PT team (may total to six, though).

 

[Pieman0920]

Cutting transformations seems....highly unlikely. It just doesn't make sense, since in the end it just doesn't really do much in terms of the roster, since the character's other form though. If five characters were to be cut, I'd say the most likely would be Wolf, Falco, Toon Link, Lucario, and ROB, even though I don't think any will be cut. (And in the case of Falco and Wolf, its not that both would be cut, but rather one would be cut and the other would stay)

 

[Mario the Jumpman]

Pieman, do you have an idea of why I cut those chars?

 

[Pieman0920]

Not really, since it doesn't make sense that he would have to cut characters, and you didn't say anything about why up there.

 

[Mario the Jumpman]

I cut Zamus because she's sexed up and insignificant to Metroid, the PT team because it unbalanced the roster, and Sheik because she isn't important to Zelda and unbalanced the roster. Anybody find this valid?

 

[darksamus77]

I cut Zamus because she's sexed up and insignificant to Metroid, the PT team because it unbalanced the roster, and Sheik because she isn't important to Zelda and unbalanced the roster. Anybody find this valid?

I find the first VERY valid and the last one somewhat valid. PT is one of mah best chars in the game, and has 3 very popular pokemans, so I can't validate that cut.

 

[Big-Cat]

Players hate training mode.

This depends on the game and how the training mode is set up. I hate bringing up Streeet Fighter around you, but a nice thing IV has is that you can set up your training dummy to do certain actions like: CPU Fighter, Player 2, Jumping, Block after the first attack, crouching, and more so you can practice under somewhat more realistic conditions. Still, I wish the game gave me the option to adjust the speed like in Smash.

Smash's training mode can be enhanced by giving the dummies similar condition settings and those exclusive to Smash like air doding when you practice air juggles.

Again, no one wants to see new people enter. If given a crutch, they will like the game and become better. Tutorials and trainging are very boring. Players don't want to do that (this may be one reason why Smash is successful because I have to use Trainging all the time in tatsunoko vs capcom but never in Smash). Multiplayer games should be fun right off the bat, and they should make everyone want to play them. Auto-Recovery can solve both those dilemmas.

For you tutorials are boring, but for some games they are needed and some games do in-game tutorials like those in OOT. However, some are content with tutorial videos like the ones that have been in Smash since the very beginning.

As for training, I myself don't like the idea of going into the training mode everyday, but you can make it less annoying by addressing weak points in your game instead of practicing everything. For example, let's say I have difficulty comboing into my Final Smash. I would go ahead and practice it ten-twenty times a day practicing each setup I know. At most, this would take about an hour. Think of it as if you're exercising to bulk up and you work different parts of your body on different days of the week.

You're saying multiplayer games should be fun right off the bat in order to encourage everyone to play them, but how do you propose to do this without having a crutch like auto-recovery put into the game? I understand that this concept is like the Super Guide, but I'm not sure if Smash is the place for such a thing.

Nintendo's focus is growing the market and making new customers. This also means making controlling the game easier. Mario Kart Wii is very easy to control. If Smash is to keep up, it may need to do the same (NOTE:Despite strong sales, the game can not compare to other big Nintendo titles like Mario Kart Wii, so there is a lot of room for growth).

Nintendo's out to grow the market, but it's not like they are ignoring the hardcore crowd. We have games like NSMB Wii that are crazy hard and the hardcore get a kick out of it.

I believe that Smash is one of those games that will be for the hardcore. I'm not talking crazy hard here, but fighting games, even ones like Smash, are not really for people playing videogames for the first time. However, you could say to an extent that Smash is like an introduction to fighting games.

 

[NeverFiniteX]

Chu
"Players hate training mode"? Since when? Who are these players? Have you considered the person that doesn't have anyone else to practice with? To this day I still use training mode and I've followed the series since it began. Then again, I watch matches on youtube and spot things I would not of though of doing if I had not seen them. What I am trying to say is when you put the CPU on "Stand" and knock it off the edge it 'auto'-recovers. Also, the tutorials are like 1 minute long, if not less. Even the people who have short attention spans can get the jist of things from a minute long video.
New players who would buy the game will probably play with their friends (who are most likely also new to smash) and in the off chance that one of them is a vet, I'm sure that he/she won't pass the cance help him/her understand the basics of the game. If not, the new player can always ask questions. Smash isn't THAT difficult, there are patterns to follow. Don't you notice that in games like Halo, the single player/co-op introduces training skills throughout the campaign (especially while using the skulls). Perhaps the mechanics of the Smash aren't the issue, its Brawl's crappy story mode that doesn't relate any skill (or meaning ) to the player. It used to be that every character's moveset is introduced to you because you had to fight them. I learned Fox/Falco's Z+Down + Down+B move playing Melee on Hard mode and now that combo is second nature to me.


To Be Cut: greatest to least

Snake
Lucario (Replaced by M2)
Rob
Pit
Ice Climbers
Jiggly Puff

What? Sheik to be cut? Highly arguable, honestly who in the right mind mains with
Zelda? Sheik can stay, I just don't want her to have her own spot

Zamus, Are you kidding me? Metroid is hardly representing as it is and Samus is part of the original 12 (not to mention the starting 8). Unless they add Ridley AND another supporting character, I vote she stays. I don't even like her or play as her and I still think she's an important addition.

Falco- I am not indifferent to the idea, I just main as him, my vote is leaning towards a No. (More reasons below)

Trainer- "PT is one of mah best chars in the game, and has 3 very popular pokemans, so I can't validate that cut." (DarkSamus77) Nuff Said.

Just by glancing at some of the topics I can see that Puff is a very debateable character, but now its turned into clone removal. Listen, if you remove Falco, you've got to take out Lucas, Ike, Luigi, Toon link, and it almost kills any chance that SSB4 will have supporting characters like Samurai Goroh, Roy, Masked Man (Claus?) or Felix. Then again Koopa, I don't see Hal not putting at least Knuckles or at least Metal Sonic if they continue down the path of giving Third/Second Party characters supporting Characters (I don't know if you've noticed but Sega and Nintendo are getting pretty friendly). Perhaps I should post my Full wish list, you'll notice the pattern of good/clone/supporting (like 25) and bad/supporting (like 15) characters. I'm not against the idea of removing clones, the game will most likely have 44 characters, 50 at most. I just don't see the next smash game not having close to 60 or so characters, especially with all the random character posts I've seen so far, Nintendos gotta please SOMEBODY; even my wish list has about 65 characters and thats with taking about six or seven characters out.

 

[Thrillhouse-vh.]

I cut Zamus because she's sexed up and insignificant to Metroid

Samus is unimportant to Metroid?

If she's sexed up that pretty much guarantees she's staying.

and Sheik because she isn't important to Zelda and unbalanced the roster.

Zelda is unimportant to Zelda?

 

[Thirdkoopa]

The only thing in particular that would lead me to believe it's static is Porky's appearance as a boss in Brawl. Why use him as a boss instead of someone or something from Zelda or DK or anything else? Or even a less storyline critical boss like Rayquaza and Petey? There was pretty much zero reason to have him there in particular, let alone being a boss-and-a-half. It's just too peculiar.

Because Mother has no true popular gigantic boss to use? I guess the Devil's Machine could technically work, but that'd still involve porky/pokey. It's really hard to tell, but eh, never know when we'll get an official answer. Of course, I don't really see much behind it being expanding because even If It is Static, It obviously makes more sense for Lucas to appear first than Pokey and Claus.

Also I really doubt Itoi would change his mind as he seemed pretty straight foward when he said it, but eh, stranger things have happened.

Anyone else want to add to this?

One more thing, Sakurai has stated that he doesn't let anyone else pick which characters to add (at least for Nintendo characters, not sure about 3rd parties). The various dev teams might potentially deny his choices, but they aren't telling him who to add.

Actually; One of the people from what I recall right on the dev team suggested Dr.Mario. We can't be totally sure that It's just sakurai (Asides from 3rd Parties, Pokemon, and possibly FE) but from what it seems like it is.

Hey guys, if Sakurai had to cut five characters from Smash 4, which ones would you vote for? I would choose ZSS, Sheik, and the PT team (may total to six, though).

IF He had to? I'm not really for cutting anyone from Brawl's roster. I'd say lucario but I can't really think of anyone else. All the characters in brawl have rightfully earned there spot in some way or form. Even snake in the awkward event of him opening the doors to other Third-Parties.

But the characters I see as of now having a somewhat plausible chance at getting removed: (Even then, It's kinda hard to see)
Ike - The whole "New Lord" Thing (Even then, he's standing out more than Roy to his series just like Lucario is as opossed to Pichu
Lucario - Read the above.
Snake - Legal Situations.
Sonic - ^^

But even then, Konami and Sega as far as I see have had no problems after brawl, so meh.

Just by glancing at some of the topics I can see that Puff is a very debateable character, but now its turned into clone removal. Listen, if you remove Falco, you've got to take out Lucas, Ike, Luigi, Toon link

Nope, none of them (Asides from Toon Link, and I don't know enough about ganondorf to say) are "True" Clones. Some just have similar physics of the sorts because...Would it really make sense for Luigi completely different from Mario?

Falco and Wolf are still important characters, they're staying regardless (Of course, with the possible future addition of Krystal)

Also Ike only truely shares one move.

Then again Koopa, I don't see Hal not putting at least Knuckles or at least Metal Sonic if they continue down the path of giving Third/Second Party characters supporting Characters (I don't know if you've noticed but Sega and Nintendo are getting pretty friendly).

Sega and Nintendo have been pretty friendly after the Dreamcast. Anyways; First thing to point out, Second Party =/= Third Party.
Second Parties (One's like Camelot who happen to own Isaac) Are still there at Sakurai's disposal and are just companies not completely inside nintendo (I think I worded this awfully) but still owned by nintendo. Of course, Sony and Microsoft have Second-Parties as well.

Third Parties are owned by themselves, but they support all consoles (Or, whichever ones they choose)
1)Ninty/Sakurai/Whoever would have to pay Sega more than the other companies to use both as playable
2)As of now, we have no info of what is even thought of from the devs about adding Third-Party supporting characters (Which even then, I remember a thumbs down in one of these mentions somewhere) - I.E. If It would be easy to do or fine.
3)Third-Parties are rather limited and not really highly praised as to what Sakurai or whoever thinks: They're great characters to have, and while a lot of people want 1-2 more, as shown with brawl, we're not going to see a huge increase. Now, why should one spot go to ANOTHER Sonic character as oppossed to another company? (Which when, Sonic already advertises by himself)

There's probably easily more I listed, but the only reason is "Square and Nintendo are close" Yeah, and nintendo's also close/in good relationships with other Third-Parties that don't even have characters in brawl. Until we see any indication that even says supporting characters from 3rd Parties are possible as PC's then no.

I just don't see the next smash game not having close to 60 or so characters

Uh, 60 is a pretty unrealistic hope, technically 64 with transformations (Kinda like how 50 was with brawl; The roster I made was partly based on the future as well) You have to think about it. The developers can't just go "Hey look, people want Saki" "Bam! Saki made. Next character?" - Characters take time to program in there whole movesets, then you have to balance them. Brawl even apparently spent more time trying to balance characters and it ended out even less balanced. (Or, Around the same as melee) If you disagree, Wishes to have a word with you.

Think on it - When adding in an Attack, anything (By technical means) could happen. Lucas can recover from shooting his own PK Fire then pulling in his magnet. Things have to go through testing, and nontheless, against all other characters. A lot more just goes into it than we make it look like, even If we can make a moveset for a goomba.

And If we look at brawl, 14 Newcomers (Counting PT As one character; But the developers STILL Had to balance all of those as well and ZSS) - That pleased a lot of people fine + On the contrary, you have to leave out SOME Sequel worthy characters.

And just as a notice, mine wasn't really as much of a wishlist. I probably have more impossible music hopes than with characters I've set myself down pretty minimalistic with extreme hopes this time around, being:
-Claus (Masked Man form)
-Square Enix character(Probably Final Fantasy; Preferably Chocobo [With possible added Slime!] or Black Mage)
-Isaac/Possibly the Golden Sun DS Protaginist if he gets more popular (And even then, Isaac has still had two appearences)
-Sukapon
-Focusing a lot more on a far better online system (Hey; If online's good, that'll give it more replay value than a ton of new characters) Oh, and with this, working on making more features like Stage Builder more viable, instead of spending a bunch of time on SSE.
-Focusing on completing more series (Not the 3rd parties) to all there viable characters, regardless of Sales Figures or how much a series sells more. (Which is likely anyways)

I'd say that's pretty minimal, personally.

 

[Mario the Jumpman]

Zamus is another name for ZSS, and I cut Sheik. Giant and NeverFinite, GET IT RIGHT!!!

And ZSS is NOT an important adeition. GOT THAT!?

 

[n88]

@Everyone

I'm just bringing this up because people have been talking about how many characters we're going to see in SSB4. Brawl had seventeen newcomers. Not (As some foolish people who merely subtract 25 from 35 will tell you) ten. They are as follows:

1. Diddy
2. Wario
3. Zero Suit Samus
4. Pit
5. ROB
6. Meta Knight
7. King Dedede
8. Olimar
9. Wolf
10. Squirtle
11. Ivysaur
12. Charizard
13. Lucario
14. Ike
15. Lucas
16. Snake
17. Sonic

And yes, transformations count as separate characters. There's no reason why any transformation (ZSS, Pokemon, Sheik) would have taken any less amount of development time than any other character, and there's no reason they should be shafted off and not counted as full characters.

So, to clarify we have:

SSB64: 12 Newcomers (12 Characters total)
Melee: 14 Newcomers (26 Characters total)
Brawl: 17 Newcomers (39 Characters total)
SSB4: ????

Following this pattern, the best guess for SSB4 would be ~53 characters. But that's not really usable information, since there's nothing binding Sakurai to a certain number of characters. The roster could end up at 45, and it could end up at 60. That's just if he keeps going at his present rate.

 

[DekuBoy]

I do not care if Zamus stays or goes. But Jiggs had better stay. If Sakurai hasn't cut her by now, I doubt he ever will.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Pattern

Sure; There's a pattern, but on the contrary, as shown with brawl, the more and more that keeps getting added, the harder and harder it gets to balance. People came up with all these Pattern Theories for brawl as all were pretty much proven wrong. 45-49 Seems realistic, 50-55 Possibly throwing in Transformations...Yes. 60? Extremely doubtable. (Even with retaking all the data from say, all the veterans from brawl along with Roy + Mewtwo, making 41 movesets already to change around and whatever)

I'm just saying don't put any bets on it even with some theory or "WELL THEY HAVE TO PLEASE MORE PEOPLE"

 

[flyinfilipino]

Zamus is another name for ZSS, and I cut Sheik. Giant and NeverFinite, GET IT RIGHT!!!

And ZSS is NOT an important adeition. GOT THAT!?

What's your issue? Sheik and Zamus are just additions to already existing characters that add some variety to the playable character pool. They're not important, but there's nothing inherently wrong with them.

 

[Anaky]

Make Link high tier lolololololol.

 

[NeverFiniteX]

"Hey look, people want Saki" "Bam! Saki made. Next character?" (Koopa)
You may not know me very well, but even during the previous discussions that we've had, I would have thought that you would give me more credit than this. Do you think that you're talking to a five year old?

Sigh, I thought you were cool untill you posted this

I'm just saying don't put any bets on it even with some theory or "WELL THEY HAVE TO PLEASE MORE PEOPLE"

Not my intention. You don't have to be an A-hole about it either.

I get the feeling that unlike me, you prefer Snake over sonc, which is cool and all. BUT (and this is a big but) I have yet to see a Mario and Snake Olympic Game Yet, whereas Sonic has TWO. Sonic has a bigger chance of getting a second character than Isaac does and if you focus on the genre setting Knuckles is a pretty worthy Candidate. Although you are speaking the truth, I will still have to disagree that Sonic is Third party. He is just as important as all the marths in the game. Are you indifferent with say Mecha Sonic being a boss or something? Sigh... I'm sick of arguing this... at this rate, if Nintendo keeps reppin sonic like they are, I would rather him go.

Clones, although Melee was rushed, each one of the characters I listed resemble clones. Ike is a shoe in for Roy, Toon link is a replacement for Young link, and Lucas was meant to be in Melee, and his moveset would have been almost identical (it pretty much is NOW). All of which would mean that at some point in the development, these characters were all clones. Why am I even arguing this? I love the clones, back in the day I started out as Mario and my brother Luigi, then Falco and He's fox, now Marth and Ike. Why do you think I am with you on the whole Felix ordeal?

Please don't put words in my mouth, it iritates me when people do that. Some people on this very forum can testify that pay close attention to what I have said. Your implication is that I 'hope' for 60+ characters whereas if you actually saw my list (without supporting characters like the Black Knight) the number count comes out to be more like 48. Thats 9 extra characters if all the characters from Brawl stay. 60 is a reasonable number because I don't see Nintendo making a 5th or 6th Smash Brothers. Technical indifferences asside I would have expected Brawl to close this chapter and I would have been perfectly OK with Melee being the last as well. Why would there only be 9 new characters when other games had 13 + additions after both sequels? No 75 characters is unreasonable inbeteween 50 and 60 is a definite Go!

Edit*
I think that Sonic & Snake are close to the limit to as you say "Third Party" inclusions and Smash should stick to the All Star Idea, Seven Third Party MAX.

 

[Mario the Jumpman]

What's your issue? Sheik and Zamus are just additions to already existing characters that add some variety to the playable character pool. They're not important, but there's nothing inherently wrong with them.

And you don't think ZSS is sexed up?

Anyway, besides Snake, Sonic, and Megaman, who would be likely as a fourth 3rd-Party rep?

And sorry if I sounded like a jerk.

 

[flyinfilipino]

And you don't think ZSS is sexed up?

Anyway, besides Snake, Sonic, and Megaman, who would be likely as a fourth 3rd-Party rep?

And sorry if I sounded like a jerk.

I didn't say anything about how sexed up she is. Samus is a young, athletic, strong woman, and that's what she just happens to look like. At least she's all covered up.

And you're sounding like that on purpose; no need to apologize for that.

And I'm sure you can find the answer to your question on several of the past few hundred pages.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

You may not know me very well, but even during the previous discussions that we've had, I would have thought that you would give me more credit than this. Do you think that you're talking to a five year old?

I'm not, I just hate bringing out gigantic Wall of Texts, and I'm just saying that (And not only to you) More comes into the making of a character than just throwing one, and even with more time on brawl spent on that, you still have a character that's hard to find a bad match-up with. In Smash 4, the testing becomes even more tedious with every character you add in rather than Brawl, Melee, and 64.

Anyways, since we're all not really going to agree that much on roster size, I'll just say that only time will tell. Moving on,

I get the feeling that unlike me, you prefer Snake over sonic

Oh no, I actually like sonic more. I play as him more, I'm more into playing sonic games (...The older ones), and Sonic was actually more of my most wanted characters during brawl's development.

I just happen to respect Snake even If he was completely shoed-in by hideo because If It wasn't for hideo, we may not even have had the barriers opened in the first place.

Mario and Snake Olympic Game Yet

Hey look, I see Square and Mario have had two crossover games as well.

See: You're only thinking about snake and not the possibility of other Third-Parties joining in. (Most notably, Megaman)

Sonic has a bigger chance of getting two characters than Isaac does

Adding sonic's buddies has legal issues, Isaac doesn't.
Of course, this time around I don't even see Golden Sun getting two characters.

Although you are speaking the truth, I will still have to disagree that Sonic is Third party. He is just as important as all the marths in the game.

Regardless, Legal Issues will stand in the way of every sonic character, and for that matter, every one of MGS, Final Fantasy, Megaman, and so forth's additional characters.

It's really not that much of a traversity. We still have Sonic representing Sega, Snake representing Konami (Not the most logical konami rep but whatever), Megaman representing Capcom, etc. Seems fine to me and not over-doing it.

Stuff about clones

I'm just saying, Ike isn't a Marth clone. All of them are pretty luigi-fied at most, which is pretty fine, and as long as Felix plays differently enough then he works too.

60 is a reasonable number because I don't see Nintendo making a 5th or 6th Smash Brothers.

It's too soon to say, but If Smash 4 follows in the tradition of each smash game so far outselling the previous one then yes, a Smash 5/etc etc can easily happen.

Heres a Big Hell NO to your Square Enix Fantasy, I have no Idea who or what Choca-Idon'tCares are,

Chocobo's are actually one of the few reoccuring characters in all of Final Fantasy, as Slime is one of the few reoccuring characters (And considered one of the mascots of Dragon Quest) - A slime riding a Chocobo surely makes more sense than say, Cloud. It pleases both Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy fans considering they're both equally as big as japan and both series have had spin-offs with Mario.

Also, It's actually not my idea; The Chocobo/Slime idea is Toise's. The thing is, It's been stated a billion times in this thread but If Square was to team up with Sakurai for a character next time around, then the mascot picked (If they wanted to go with one of the most logical ones, at least to nintendo.) would probably be a character like a Chocobo, Moogle, or Black Mage...

...Or something from Dragon Quest.

 

[n88]

@Thirdkoopa

Oh, I know it doesn't really mean much. I acknowledged that in my post. I just figured I'd throw it out there because too often I see people saying "Well the number goes up by ten each time". If people are going to make predictions via numbers, then I want them to at least use the right numbers. I don't really hold any stock in it. Obviously Sakurai wil add whatever characters he deems as fitting, regardless of what he's done in the past.

Also, I think that Brawl's balance isn't as out of whack as people make it out to be. Weren't there a lot of people who labeled Sheik as broken when Melee was new, and wanted her banned? *Eyes final Melee tier list with Sheik in third*

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Anyway, besides Snake, Sonic, and Megaman, who would be likely as a fourth 3rd-Party rep?

Assuming that one more gets in asides from Megaman...

Who I'd want represented: SquareEnix. Preferably a FF Character, and probably one of the reoccuring ones, with quite a few interesting possibilities. Black Mage could be cool, Chocobo & Slime are a nice duo but have never actually duo'd in a game (Main flaw in that), and that's just touching on what they could do for FF Representation If they were to pick FF.

Who's likely: Dunno, rather early to say, as It's mainly on who shows interest to who and fan demand. There's also the possibility we just get Megaman.

Suda 51 has shown interest, but unlike Snake, Travis isn't a huge gaming star.
Square has been a pretty loyal company to nintendo possibly with nintendo having treatment with Dragon Quest as to what Sony has with the main Final Fantasy games, and we even had a musician from there help with soundtrack.
Ubisoft and Namco are also possible; Not to sure on these companies as much as the above two. I haven't really heard much that doesn't have other companies ties with it (I.E. Bomberman has ties with Konami. Whoops; Mixed konami and capcom up)

 

[NeverFiniteX]

TTK
I apologize, it seemed that most of your comments were directed at me.

Ok then,

Capcom- Megaman X
Camelot- Issac
Konami- Bomberman
Ubisoft- Rayman

In Mah Dremz

Square Enix- Chrono
Sega- Knuckles
Rare- Banjo Kazooie

Thats my pick, and whaddya know? Seven Characters. Wait... in Melee we got TWO fire Emblem Characters! (Hint* Felix *Hint)

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Of Course the innevitable Retro/Contributors. Lets Hear some thoughts on that

You mean for rare "Unless they break the contract AND Throw a B-Day for Sakurai", right?

I actually agree with all of those, except I feel multiple characters (As playable) Would be a havoc with legal rights, however If they could get past Royalty Fees with another series (I.E. Buying the rights to both something of Chrono Trigger and buying some FF Stuff) Then I've already said it before: I wouldn't really want Assist Trophy placement, but rather, music placement (Tho, both would be cool)

Like from Chrono Trigger's OST, A remixed version of Yearnings of the Wind ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swLy_8Rp7QA ) could fit very well as a menu theme or If remixed properly, for a stage.

So overall, It's just which company gets in, since I (along with most others in this thread) think that more than 2 new additions is rather unlikely.

 

[Mowrt620]

For third-party, eh?

Pac Man
Dig-dug
Sora
Geno
Megaman
Bomberman

 

[n88]

As for third parties, I think Megaman should be in, but the only one I really want is Siegfried/Nightmare, from SoulCalibur.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

@Thirdkoopa

Also, I think that Brawl's balance isn't as out of whack as people make it out to be. Weren't there a lot of people who labeled Sheik as broken when Melee was new, and wanted her banned? *Eyes final Melee tier list with Sheik in third*

More or less the only balance issues i see are :The ease of 0-Death chain grabs, and Meta's sheer brokeness. (Please don't get on me for this comment anyone, Want to argue, Mesage me or something)

3rd-Parties
Megaman- Obvs. preferablly X
Bomberman- Multiplayer Pionerr, etc. etc.
These are the only two I want to see happening

 

[Fatmanonice]

Of course you can't, they're not doing one right now. Gotta Google around for results if you want to see them.


Anyway, Jigglypuff belongs to an evolving series, the kind that doesn't have a recurring main cast (like FE and possibly Mother). Popularity carries more weight there, which is why we got Mewtwo in Melee and the Gen 1 starters in Brawl. You could even argue that relevance is determined by popularity in those cases.

Geno, on the other hand, belongs to a static series, the kind that DOES have a main recurring cast. Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, sometimes Yoshi, and arguably Toad and/or Bowser Jr. make up this main recurring cast. Geno belongs to neither this core group nor the other lesser group of recurrers made up of Daisy, Waluigi, Petey, Toadette, and whoever else. He belongs to the group of characters who appear once in a specific title then never appears again, mostly RPG characters.

Sakurai hasn't shown any interest in these types of one-shot characters to become playable. The only character in Smash who might be classified as such is Sheik, and aside from being very relevant and very popular during Melee, she's still Zelda. Plus they planned on using her for TP anyway and there's the comparison to Tetra, so her status as a one-shot is debatable.

What does Geno have? A spinoff in a massive ocean of Mario titles. Great game? Definitely, but not very important to the big picture.

Regarding Pokemon, you do have characters that have significance. Pikachu has his own games and, of course, has had major roles in the manga, anime, and movies. The Pokemon Trainer is the leading character of all of the above. Lucario had his own movie and has played a major role in some of the spinoff games. With all this being said, yes, all Jigglypuff has is popularity and that franchise isn't different from the others.

About Sheik, it sounds like you're splitting hairs. Shiek wasn't in TP so there's really no point in bringing the fact that she "almost was" into the debate. I could say that Geno is the only playable major Mario RPG character to show up in more than one game, and truth be told, he's the only major Mario RPG character besides Fawful to show up in more than one game but I honestly don't believe Sakurai cares about cameos/number of appearances. For example, I don't think Sakurai could have cared less that Pit was in the Gameboy version of Tetris. I don't think he cares that Toad is actually the second most reoccuring Nintendo character. Canonically, Sheik is still an NPC that was in one game. In this sense, Geno and Shiek are very similar except Geno was actually playable. Also, for the record, Tetra and Sheik are not the same character. They play similar roles but they are not the same character and should not be pooled into one character.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

There both alternate forms of Zelda...ALthought the role is assumed for different reasons, in terms of smash they play the same role. (Assuming you are referring to "Toon Shiek" being referred to as Tetra recently). Shiek is an alternate form of Zelda with a differing role and an alternate character to work in conjunction with Zelda, Tetra can do this job as well.

 

[Fatmanonice]

They shouldn't be labeled as the same character though because, although they play the same role, they have entirely different personalites and characteristics.

 

[00000]

i want tripping as a move instead of a randomized event
~_~

 

[Fatmanonice]

I think that's how everyone wants it. I want tripping to stay but only as a result of certain moves. I think we can almost all agree that randomized tripping was one of the worst things put into Brawl.

 

[SmashChu]

@Kuma and NeverFiniteX

Since when is training mode fun? When are tutorials fun?

Tutorials and training suck, period. People buy games because they want to get to the game. Since when have you play a game and said to yourself "Oh wow, I can;t wait to see these tutorials and training stages." Never. If you buy a game, your goal is to get to the meat as quickly as you can.

But look at Wii Sports Resort in that godawful video that pops up lecturing you on how to put on the Motion Plus. Yopu cannot even skip the video! There was a problem in Japan where the Wii systems had to be updated because every time Wii Sports Resort was played, it played the godawful video that-cannot-be-skiped! This tells me someone at NCL has a very low opinion in the abilities of consumers to understand products.

The Expanded Market is far smarter than people give credit. It is the Hardcore who needs long *** tutorials and expects them in the game. The Expanded Market simply would not play the game with long tutorials not because they wouldn’t understand it but because they have better things to do with their time.

I wonder if I should expect NSMB Wii to rain ‘dialogue boxes’ at me giving me all sort of unwanted advice. “If you press ‘2′ while holding ‘1′, you will jump higher and further. Let us practice by you jumping on that pipe. Good job! Now we will run the tutorial on how you enter a pipe. This is tricky! Watch carefully!”

http://seanmalstrom.wordpress.com/2009/10/10/a-wii-bit-of-history/

Old NES games never had a tutorial and neither did SNES games. The point is that Auto-Recover gets people in to the game immediately. It's no different then Manual powerslides in Mario Kart Wii, yet no one ever complained that they dumbed down Mario Kart or that people who can;t do it manually should play a different game.

Also, Kuma, the point about Smash "staying hardcore," is stupid. Nintendo has been focusing on growing games, and multiplayer games do well with growth. Smash has increased in sales with each game. Not to mention, most of Nintendo's games meant to grow the market have been Multiplayer games (save Wii Fit and Wii Fit Plus). Why wouldn't Nintendo want to make Smash more assessable. Like I've said, if the competitive community doesn't like it, then it can very well work. Besides, wouldn't you like to see your series grow and be more popular. You'd also have more people to play with.

Also Kuma, you can mention Street Fighter all you want. The reason I point it out was it was a big success but none of the other games followed suit. The importance of the game is that you can make a successful fighting game series if you do what made Street Fighter 2 a hit, but you avoid what Alpha and SF3 added.

 

[Big-Cat]

I think that's how everyone wants it. I want tripping to stay but only as a result of certain moves. I think we can almost all agree that randomized tripping was one of the worst things put into Brawl.

That got me thinking,

We usually rag on lack of hit stun, random tripping, Masterpieces, the Subpar Emissary, and other things, but what would you say Brawl did right aside from music?

 

[Fatmanonice]

1. The introduction of new playstyles. (Pokemon Trainer, Olimar, Snake, Sonic, etc)
2. The introduction of new play mechanics (footstooling, tripping, gliding, etc)
3. The introduction of dynamic stages (Halberd, Castle Siege, Pirate Ship, etc)
4. Bringing online play to Smash Bros.

Those are the main things to me aside from music.

 

[Big-Cat]

@Kuma and NeverFiniteX

Since when is training mode fun? When are tutorials fun?

Tutorials and training suck, period. People buy games because they want to get to the game. Since when have you play a game and said to yourself "Oh wow, I can;t wait to see these tutorials and training stages." Never. If you buy a game, your goal is to get to the meat as quickly as you can.

Training Mode and tutorials aren't necessarily fun, but they're there for you to get broken into the game.

We all want to get to the meat of the game, but if you can't even take, at most, five minutes to read the **** manual, you probably shouldn't bother playing the game.

Old NES games never had a tutorial and neither did SNES games. The point is that Auto-Recover gets people in to the game immediately. It's no different then Manual powerslides in Mario Kart Wii, yet no one ever complained that they dumbed down Mario Kart or that people who can;t do it manually should play a different game.

A lot of NES and SNES games didn't have tutorials because the manuals were there for people to read. Unfortunately, people have gotten too impatient and want to go into the game today.

Also, Kuma, the point about Smash "staying hardcore," is stupid. Nintendo has been focusing on growing games, and multiplayer games do well with growth. Smash has increased in sales with each game. Not to mention, most of Nintendo's games meant to grow the market have been Multiplayer games (save Wii Fit and Wii Fit Plus). Why wouldn't Nintendo want to make Smash more assessable. Like I've said, if the competitive community doesn't like it, then it can very well work. Besides, wouldn't you like to see your series grow and be more popular. You'd also have more people to play with.

I'd like to have my favorite games more popular so I can have more people to play with, but I don't like my games to be so easy that there's no reward in victory.