Official Metaknight Discussion

[itsthebigfoot]

If your anti-ban and you play metaknight wouldn't that mean your trying to keep him in the game so you can keep using him?

yes, but that isn't a contradiction, that's actually as straightforward as you can get.

 

[solecalibur]

again, you really need to work on your vocab

/facepalm not expected much more from your post any more

yes, but that isn't a contradiction, that's actually as straightforward as you can get.

Do I need to spell it out for you? He said Marth main(s) want MK banned so they can do better in the game yet he mains MK

 

[adumbrodeus]

If your anti-ban and you play metaknight wouldn't that mean your trying to keep him in the game so you can keep using him?

He was commenting how people who have a personal interest in MK being banned aren't supporting a ban and people who have no interest are.


Your statement is not logically equivalent, the contrapositive is logically equivalent even though inverse is often believed to be so, that that wasn't even that unless you accept those positions as binary opposites, which they really can't be because there are 3 positions, "gain nothing", "gains something from ban", and "gains something from lack of ban".


So that he's being hypocritical doesn't logically follow, especially since it was just an observation and carries no weight.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

/facepalm not expected much more from your post any more



Do I need to spell it out for you? He said Marth main(s) want MK banned so they can do better in the game yet he mains MK

no. he is saying that marth mains SHOULD want him banned, since they would benefit the most from it, however, the two most well known marths (MikeHAZE and NEO) are against the ban. him maining mk has nothing to do with his point.

 

[solecalibur]

no. he is saying that marth mains SHOULD want him banned, since they would benefit the most from it, however, the two most well known marths (MikeHAZE and NEO) are against the ban. him maining mk has nothing to do with his point.

Point taken but he also mentions the fact of how pathetic pro-banners are because they don't have a better reason but I don't think this thread is just "he is a bad MU for me"

 

[adumbrodeus]

Point taken but he also mentions the fact of how pathetic pro-banners are because they don't have a better reason but I don't think this thread is just "he is a bad MU for me"

How pathetic RANDOM pro-banners, and he quantified what he meant by that.

 

[Omni]

 

[itsthebigfoot]

Point taken but he also mentions the fact of how pathetic pro-banners are because they don't have a better reason but I don't think this thread is just "he is a bad MU for me"

no, he's saying that he thinks it's pathetic that most of the pro-banners aren't going to benefit while anti-ban players (like his example of mike/neo), will still benefit. pro-ban has no real reason to expect it to help them other than "just cuz", while the ones with the most to gain by the ban are against it.

anyway, enough translating for me, i'm out for the night

 

[etecoon]

not exactly what I meant, as I said, I just found it amusing. I don't understand why he took it that way <_<

 

[Inaphyt]

"wanna not use Mk to spice things up?" "sure".

Good man.

Is it better for one character to dominate a scene or for plenty of characters on equal tangents competing at a fairer level where it is more down to skill than the character (not that mk's aren't skilled players).

Noone can argue with that really.

Also the reason the best players main Mk is because pro players start their tactics before going to their first tourny.

They found that mk was broken picked him up and now choose to keep hush about it so they can keep earning money.

Maybe americas needs more honors!? Is japan thinking of banning Mk at all anyone know?

 

[Nanaki]

Of course, but the point I'm making is that literally all the data is almost pointless for determining character power in the metagame.


Which is really what I'm getting at, and I think you would agree with me on that.

(Sorry I'm responding to a slightly old post, I went to bed).

I would say all the data that is easily available is pointless, yeah.

If someone was willing to dig deeper and look at all tourney data (besides just top 8) and actually use a rational, point-by-point, analytical method of looking at matchups, then maybe we could get somewhere with data that mean something.

It's out there, it's just a royal pain in the *** to find.

omfg Omni, I may not agree with you much in this thread, but I seriously <3 <3 <3 you now.

 

[adumbrodeus]

(Sorry I'm responding to a slightly old post, I went to bed).

I would say all the data that is easily available is pointless, yeah.

If someone was willing to dig deeper and look at all tourney data (besides just top 8) and actually use a rational, point-by-point, analytical method of looking at matchups, then maybe we could get somewhere with data that mean something.

It's out there, it's just a royal pain in the *** to find.

Way to preach to the choir dude, but unfortunately it's so difficult to get the data that it NEEDS a group effort. Period.




As I said look at my past threads, I gave one workable idea for interpreting the data (needs random sampling though, which I never mentioned in the thread), but I didn't have time to really work on it.

I thought I had this, way to kill my dreams omni!

 

[Corrupted]

Maybe americas needs more honors!? Is japan thinking of banning Mk at all anyone know?

The MK's in japan aren't even nearly on the same skill level as US MK's. Their MK metagame is also undeveloped and they have amazing players that challenge them with other characters (Shu, Yui, Kakara, Gano, 9B as Snake, Fox, IC's, Diddy and DDD respectively).

 

[Prawn]

Seriously though, people complaining about how "planking" and "timing out" and **** makes MK broken, fact is if it was that way people would be winning every tournament with him. I play ICs a character who apparently can't deal with planking etc and have it done to me all the time. IMO its not broken its just a good solid strategy.

People like Overswarm make it their mission to make MK "broken" by abusing all of his gayest tactics and still get 5th at local/regional tournaments(which is lol)

ban my ***

 

[Overswarm]

People like Overswarm make it their mission to make MK "broken" by abusing all of his gayest tactics and still get 5th at local/regional tournaments(which is lol)

My losses have all been to Metaknights, one of them Mew2King, with the exception of a recent loss to Blue Rogue in a set where I killed myself at 13%. Hardly small play either, considering our locals consist of 3-4 states and about 60 people.

 

[Tommy_G]

Gnes and ADHD has proven diddy has that ability to shut down MK multiple times.
Everyone needs to get over the MK ban-wagon
The main issue is that no one really knows good ban criteria since no one knows the game well enough.

But still, banning a character is serious and would have some butterfly effect consequences.
Each MK player will be discouraged with this ban coming out.
Think about this, all of the players who put all of their time and effort into learning MK will leave smash.
This argument should have never gotten this much hype.
Ehhhh, I can't believe you ******* got me an infraction for this stupid senseless argument.
Really now...stop arguing about a game that has no real life value.

lolz

Read the first letter of each line.

It cannot be unseen.

 

[Prawn]

yet still in the same tournament the characters were Snake, Metaknight, and Wario in the top 5,

2 metas, 2 snakes, 1 wario.

That was a tournament in which one of the MKs is unarguably one of the top 3 players in the world. To be perfectly honest your arguments are incredibly valid and I don't think that they're stupid at all, but the simple fact is MK is really not showing dominance :/

I read m2k's blog between my last post and this one and it just reaffirmed my beliefs.

 

[Overswarm]

You aren't clever, Tommy. =P

yet still in the same tournament the characters were Snake, Metaknight, and Wario in the top 5,

2 metas, 2 snakes, 1 wario.

That was a tournament in which one of the MKs is unarguably one of the top 3 players in the world. To be perfectly honest your arguments are incredibly valid and I don't think that they're stupid at all, but the simple fact is MK is really not showing dominance :/

I read m2k's blog between my last post and this one and it just reaffirmed my beliefs.

Trends show he is dominant, actually. The only time you can find he isn't is when you cherry pick random tournaments.

You also should never be persuaded by mew2king ever. If "Metaknight shouldn't be banned because that's not fair that I spent so much time evolving the metagame and other metaknights are only good because of me and that's so gay" convinces you, you should step away from the monitor.

 

[Tommy_G]

You aren't clever, Tommy. =P



Trends show he is dominant, actually. The only time you can find he isn't is when you cherry pick random tournaments.

You also should never be persuaded by mew2king ever. If "Metaknight shouldn't be banned because that's not fair that I spent so much time evolving the metagame and other metaknights are only good because of me and that's so gay" convinces you, you should step away from the monitor.

Quite the contrary. I am very clever.

In all seriousness, no one knows the mechanics of this game as a fighting game well enough to explain the criteria for a ban. Overcentralization is not criteria for a ban. Everyone playing Ryu in SF didn't make him the best character in the game nor did it make him near banworthy.
2D fighters are a bit easier to understand the mechanics of what to do vs which options. Attack high->block high. Attack low->block low. Smash -> Shield...Shield poke...Side step etc.

All of the data I've seen so far is alllllllll cherry picked in some way or another.
"If we take 1st place from all of the tournaments where ADHD and Ally won....MK is clearly not dominant."
"If we take 1st place from all of the tournaments where M2k won...MK is clearly dominant."

The bell curve that was posted pages back has validity to it.
There are higher chances that there will be better players using MK simply because he's getting so much more support.
If 5% of the players to each character are really good. 20 Snake players would have 1 amazing player and 100 MK players will have 5 amazing player REGARDLESS of the fact that they're using MK. It's just statistics.
More possibilities of an outcome will increase the chance of said outcome.

 

[Eddie G]

My losses have all been to Metaknights, one of them Mew2King, with the exception of a recent loss to Blue Rogue in a set where I killed myself at 13%. Hardly small play either, considering our locals consist of 3-4 states and about 60 people.

Yeah...people should really get a clue as to how much Ohio's competition has grown (and NO it's not because of M2K for those of you who are completely uninformed/misinformed, we've already been well on our way before he showed up to take our 1st place money everywhere). If anyone wants to try and refute my point still, just ask Atlantic North (the best region) how it feels to also have their 1st place money taken at nearly every event by M2K/Ally.

OS may choose to use those tactics, but he is not by any means a perfect player, no one is. There's still only so much he can do, but are any of you honestly going to express any surprise that he still lost to M2K while using the tactics? It's really not that surprising. His other losses have been to either people who he plays frequently (such as Kel/some of the God Kais) or to people who know how to fight MK well (such as Blue Rogue). Nothing about his losses are a fluke, no matter what tactics he uses. 5th place is a respectable placing in our tough, ever-growing area.

 

[Overswarm]

Quite the contrary. I am very clever.

Touché, Tommy. =P

 

[piZ]

You also should never be persuaded by mew2king ever. If "Metaknight shouldn't be banned because that's not fair that I spent so much time evolving the metagame and other metaknights are only good because of me and that's so gay" convinces you, you should step away from the monitor.

quotin dis for truth

 

[Prawn]

OS may choose to use those tactics, but he is not by any means a perfect player, no one is. There's still only so much he can do, but are any of you honestly going to express any surprise that he still lost to M2K while using the tactics? It's really not that surprising. His other losses have been to either people who he plays frequently (such as Kel/some of the God Kais) or to people who know how to fight MK well (such as Blue Rogue). Nothing about his losses are a fluke, no matter what tactics he uses. 5th place is a respectable placing in our tough, ever-growing area.

I never said it wasn't respectable I said it wasn't broken enough to warrant a ban. OS have you really lost to ONLY mks for your past lets say, 5 tournaments?

if so could you post results and stuff so I can see? I don't really see that being possible.

 

[Pete278]

can we stop doing the ST examples?

seriously, sagat was soft banned in japan because he limited a lot of other characters, not because of being broken. this ban also came several years after the release, when the japanese basically said "wanna not use sagat to spice things up?" "sure".

ST Akuma on the other hand was far more broken than mk will ever be. now some of you are being *******es right now and are thinking "hurr-durr mk is teh broke too" but even if you believe he does break the game, it is not even close to ST akuma. to put it in perspective, Akuma was banned at release, fairly unanimously, and to this day doesn't even have an arguably close matchup. CLOSE matchup, like 60-40 in akuma's favor, nobody in their right mind will say that mks matchups are that imbalanced, as players like MikeHAZE, Larry, Ally and ADHD have proven that mk has a few even, close, or even bad matchups.

TL;DR stfu about super turbo, none of you play it, none of you actually know what you're talking about when it comes to that game and both examples of characters banned in that game where banned from separate reasons than the ones that apply to mk. (akuma being on a whole nother level and sagat being closer a ban on ddd 8 years down the road)

That's funny, I thought that's what I said about Sagat and didn't even mention Akuma. Way to talk **** about people you don't know about. I did play ST until it became clear there wasn't going to be anymore competition in my area, for the record. So, thanks for not reading my post at all then talking **** about it. Seems to happen alot on these boards, to be honest.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Touché, Tommy.

You realize that this is what I've been saying this the entire time, right? My whole "the stastics don't account for population" thing.

 

[Overswarm]

You realize that this is what I've been saying this the entire time, right? My whole "the stastics don't account for population" thing.

I'm not sure what you're talking about. I was being nonsensical and I told him he wasn't clever, he said he was, and I said "touché". It was a humorous back and forth.

 

[HoN3Y64]

Basically Overswarm is just saying he sucks as a player, and is taking it out on Meta Knight.

 

[Pete278]

How does a guy with a 2010 join date even know the whole 'let's hate OS' thing?

 

[adumbrodeus]

I'm not sure what you're talking about. I was being nonsensical and I told him he wasn't clever, he said he was, and I said "touché". It was a humorous back and forth.

Ok, I thought the touche was for the point about the ratios, namely if MK has 100 players and Snake has 20, if MK has 5 amazing players, snake having one is an equivalent ratio. Which TBH is my biggest problem with the statistics and even the relevance of absolute placements, because we have no idea how popular MK is among serious competitive players, and therefore more likely to get the truly amazing players.

 

[Nanaki]

Quite the contrary. I am very clever.

In all seriousness, no one knows the mechanics of this game as a fighting game well enough to explain the criteria for a ban. Overcentralization is not criteria for a ban. Everyone playing Ryu in SF didn't make him the best character in the game nor did it make him near banworthy.
2D fighters are a bit easier to understand the mechanics of what to do vs which options. Attack high->block high. Attack low->block low. Smash -> Shield...Shield poke...Side step etc.

All of the data I've seen so far is alllllllll cherry picked in some way or another.
"If we take 1st place from all of the tournaments where ADHD and Ally won....MK is clearly not dominant."
"If we take 1st place from all of the tournaments where M2k won...MK is clearly dominant."

The bell curve that was posted pages back has validity to it.
There are higher chances that there will be better players using MK simply because he's getting so much more support.
If 5% of the players to each character are really good. 20 Snake players would have 1 amazing player and 100 MK players will have 5 amazing player REGARDLESS of the fact that they're using MK. It's just statistics.
More possibilities of an outcome will increase the chance of said outcome.

The bell curve example has validity if our sampling is random.

It's not.

We're taking the cream of the crop of results, top 8's. Yes, there are more MK's there, leading to higher results, as you would expect. However, you can't interpret this is "MK has more points because there are more of them" OR "MK has more points because he's better", because the data tells you NOTHING about the rest of the tournament up to the final 8.

Were there 10 times as many MK's in the tourney, leading to an increased chance of them making top 8? Or were there 10 MK's total and most of them made top 8? We have no idea, so we can't draw any reasonable conclusions except for "MK gets lots of top 8 points". Whether or not this is because of popularity, player skill, or character 'brokenness' remains to be seen.

You realize that this is what I've been saying this the entire time, right? My whole "the stastics don't account for population" thing.

Listen to this guy. He's gots the smarts.

You also should never be persuaded by mew2king ever. If "Metaknight shouldn't be banned because that's not fair that I spent so much time evolving the metagame and other metaknights are only good because of me and that's so gay" convinces you, you should step away from the monitor.

I would definitely listen to him about how to play this game effectively, and be persuaded that his methods are sound.

...but otherwise, yeah, qft.

 

[Overswarm]

I would definitely listen to him about how to play this game effectively, and be persuaded that his methods are sound.

Really, you shouldn't. He doesn't really know what he's talking about 90% of the time. He knows WHAT to do but can't say it in any way shape or form.

 

[Tommy_G]

The bell curve example has validity if our sampling is random.

The bell curve isn't based on a sample. It's based on the probability of a character meaning there are more players to that character, the chances of that character having good people using them are significantly higher out of sheer numbers.

If there are 500 MKs and 100 Snakes in the world and 1% of each character is an "outlier" type of player, then MK would have 5 outliers and Snake would have 1.

 

[Nanaki]

Really, you shouldn't. He doesn't really know what he's talking about 90% of the time. He knows WHAT to do but can't say it in any way shape or form.

I translate this to 'M2K is socially ********'

If I'm interpreting that wrong, please let me know.

Edit:

The bell curve isn't based on a sample. It's based on the probability of a character meaning there are more players to that character, the chances of that character having good people using them are significantly higher out of sheer numbers.

If there are 500 MKs and 100 Snakes in the world and 1% of each character is an "outlier" type of player, then MK would have 5 outliers and Snake would have 1.

Yes, but you have no evidence of there being 500 MKs and 100 Snakes. Taking the top 8 of a tournament doesn't give you any proof of that notion at all.

 

[Overswarm]

I translate this to 'M2K is socially ********'

If I'm interpreting that wrong, please let me know.

Aspergers, actually. He's still an alright guy, just not someone to explain something complex to you.

 

[etecoon]

a lot of high level MK's have vouched for him giving them good advice, he can't be that bad at explaining things....

MK is broken ban him</on topic>

 

[iRJi]

How does a guy with a 2010 join date even know the whole 'let's hate OS' thing?

because he is a normal user making a recent account to troll in his futile attempt to look cool or to get his point across. Children will be children I suppose.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Really, you shouldn't. He doesn't really know what he's talking about 90% of the time. He knows WHAT to do but can't say it in any way shape or form.

Lol qft.


I'll never forget, one of the first ban threads, M2k came in and debated me on the MK-Snake MU, and he believed Snake's dtilt outranges MKs, and then his "if this guy beats me, my char loses the MU" rants... about just about every character that ever beat him.

The bell curve isn't based on a sample. It's based on the probability of a character meaning there are more players to that character, the chances of that character having good people using them are significantly higher out of sheer numbers.

If there are 500 MKs and 100 Snakes in the world and 1% of each character is an "outlier" type of player, then MK would have 5 outliers and Snake would have 1.

Uhhh, it's a distribution, basing it off a sample tells us literally everything that's useful about using a bell curve.


That's how we figure out stuff like the standard deviation (which in turn lets us figure out what is an outlier).

 

[rathy Aro]

OS, You seem to be leading the pro-ban arguement to I'll direct this question at you:

I understand that your are trying to prove the mk is banworthy, but what are you trying to prove to get to that point? I know you said you wouldn't use the word broken so are you just trying to prove he's dominant or what?

 

[Nanaki]

Aspergers, actually. He's still an alright guy, just not someone to explain something complex to you.

Ah, that makes a lot of sense - explains his intense interest in Smash anyway.

Someone should make an M2K documentary - 'The Man Behind the Controller'

Lol qft.


I'll never forget, one of the first ban threads, M2k came in and debated me on the MK-Snake MU, and he believed Snake's dtilt outranges MKs, and then his "if this guy beats me, my char loses the MU" rants... about just about every character that ever beat him.



Uhhh, it's a distribution, basing it off a sample tells us literally everything that's useful about using a bell curve.


That's how we figure out stuff like the standard deviation (which in turn lets us figure out what is an outlier).

^^Continue listening to this man.

 

[Overswarm]

OS, You seem to be leading the pro-ban arguement to I'll direct this question at you:

I understand that your are trying to prove the mk is banworthy, but what are you trying to prove to get to that point? I know you said you wouldn't use the word broken so are you just trying to prove he's dominant or what?

I've merely attempted to prove misconceptions to be just that. I've debunked all of anti-ban's previous arguments and anyone who says "Metaknight isn't dominant" hasn't look at the numbers. Anyone who thinks he has a counter or even a 50/50 matchup is incorrect. All the data I have shows things I've predicted and believed to be true.

The moment someone posts something new that's incorrect, I'd fix that too.

The reasoning behind "don't ban MK" thought isn't really based in competitive values or logic anymore.