Official Metaknight Discussion

[Loota]

Lol, I have read every single post in this thread without yet contributing at all o_o Oh well, here goes.

I can see MK only not being banned when we succeed limiting planking and scrooging effectively but I have yet seen an effective way. The game literally becomes unplayable and no fun to play at all if the MK starts planking and scrooging and thus timing the opponent out. There's very little you can do to stop it unless you're playing also MK which leads more and more people picking up MK and we all know where this leads to if people are truly playing to win. There's a chance that it won't ever happen but most likely it will and then it's already too late to look back.

In the end a vast majority of people are truly playing this game for fun. I can safely say that no one wants the game to be where only the fittest (MK) will survive in order to compete. Healthy metagame is anything but MK timing opponents out. Brawl would surely be a better competitive game without MK but how much better remains to be solved. All it asks for that every MK player is ready to make a sacrifice. Many Akuma (whoever the banned character was) players also made a sacrifice and the game got much better in all senses. After all this is our game and no one is restricting us to make decisions. Having a set criteria is not necessary, no one is asking for it. We banned some stages with just looking at them and anybody didn't complain. If MK stays I can assume say the game isn't getting any better by looking what we've seen so far. It may stay the same but the situation can also get much worse.

Limit planking and scrooging effectively or ban MK. That's the only reasonable solutions I can see for the sake of healthy metagame and a longer lifespan.

/using English at my limits.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I've merely attempted to prove misconceptions to be just that. I've debunked all of anti-ban's previous arguments and anyone who says "Metaknight isn't dominant" hasn't look at the numbers. Anyone who thinks he has a counter or even a 50/50 matchup is incorrect. All the data I have shows things I've predicted and believed to be true.

The moment someone posts something new that's incorrect, I'd fix that too.

The reasoning behind "don't ban MK" thought isn't really based in competitive values or logic anymore.

Except that he isn't dominant enough, or that popularity is directly responsible for his dominance.


One is a matter of philosophy (but ultimately a lack of a real numerical criteria), but the other is an issue of math assumptions that need to be dealt with before we should legitimately reach any conclusion whatever that is.


Honestly, I think that you're probably right (or at least hope you are), but at least fixing the math is absolutely crucial, and getting a firm criteria will help immensely with our issue of an increasingly broken base.

Lol, I have read every single post in this thread without yet contributing at all o_o Oh well, here goes.

I can see MK only not being banned when we succeed limiting planking and scrooging effectively but I have yet seen an effective way. The game literally becomes unplayable and no fun to play at all if the MK starts planking and scrooging and thus timing the opponent out. There's very little you can do to stop it unless you're playing also MK which leads more and more people picking up MK and we all know where this leads to if people are truly playing to win. There's a chance that it won't ever happen but most likely it will and then it's already too late to look back.

In the end a vast majority of people are truly playing this game for fun. I can safely say that no one wants the game to be where only the fittest (MK) will survive in order to compete. Healthy metagame is anything but MK timing opponents out. Brawl would surely be a better competitive game without MK but how much better remains to be solved. All it asks for that every MK player is ready to make a sacrifice. Many Akuma (whoever the banned character was) players also made a sacrifice and the game got much better in all senses. After all this is our game and no one is restricting us to make decisions. Having a set criteria is not necessary, no one is asking for it. We banned some stages with just looking at them and anybody didn't complain. If MK stays I can assume say the game isn't getting any better by looking what we've seen so far. It may stay the same but the situation can also get much worse.

Limit planking and scrooging effectively or ban MK. That's the only reasonable solutions I can see for the sake of healthy metagame and a longer lifespan.

/using English at my limits.

Scrooging can be banned by banning going under the stage, discrete and enforcable, done. Above might be more of a problem, but I'm not convinced it's really possible yet.


Planking hasn't proven broken yet.

 

[Tommy_G]

Lol qft.


I'll never forget, one of the first ban threads, M2k came in and debated me on the MK-Snake MU, and he believed Snake's dtilt outranges MKs, and then his "if this guy beats me, my char loses the MU" rants... about just about every character that ever beat him.



Uhhh, it's a distribution, basing it off a sample tells us literally everything that's useful about using a bell curve.


That's how we figure out stuff like the standard deviation (which in turn lets us figure out what is an outlier).

The sampling lets you figure out the values of where the standard deviations lie; however it's a fact that 3 SD out from the center is approximately 99% of all of the data. That 0.5% on both bad and good sides are what I'm looking at.

If there's a 1% chance of something happening, it's more likely to happen multiple times with 1,000,000 tries in an experiment than it is if it was tried 100 times. Same concept with MK. He simply has more representation because of everyone flocking to him so the chances of people being good and using MK are better.

Total Smasher count(example) 1,000

Probably of people being good in a community 2%(200 people in a national tournament)
Probability of people using MK 36%(approximately according to the charts people have been using)
Probability of someone being good and using MK: 0.72%
72 total good MK players having nothing to do with them playing MK. /5 for tournament amount = 14 good MKs going for the top spots

Probability of people being good in a community: 2%(for example, doesn't have to be 2, just a low number)
Probability of people using Snake: 16% (I believe, I don't feel like checking the chart.)
Probability of someone being good and using Snake: 0.32%
32 total good Snake players/5 for tournament numbers= 6 good Snake players going for the top spot.

For 'outliers' replace the 'good in a community value' with 0.5% or something significantly lower than 2%

ADHD and Ally shows there is no proof that MK makes people better players, so they're independent values.

I can make crude assumptions backed by senseless logic and throw around cherry picked numbers to support my point too. That's all this thread has been about.

Besides, I room with Seibrik and he's told me he'd rather go DDD vs Diddy than MK. He might even be shifting towards that Diddy could have a slight advantage over MK.

Get better.

 

[rvkevin]

Scrooging can be banned by banning going under the stage, discrete and enforcable, done. Above might be more of a problem, but I'm not convinced it's really possible yet.


Planking hasn't proven broken yet.

I'm confused, you suggest banning Scrooging without it being proven broken yet, but imply we shouldn't ban planking because it hasn't been proven broken yet?

 

[Tommy_G]

I'm confused, you suggest banning Scrooging without it being proven broken yet, but imply we shouldn't ban planking because it hasn't been proven broken yet?

Any character who can't fly under the stage can't do anything about scrooging. It's the same concept of Peach Bomber stalling in Melee.

Anything that makes a game unplayable......blah blah blah

 

[Overswarm]

Any character who can't fly under the stage can't do anything about scrooging. It's the same concept of Peach Bomber stalling in Melee.

Anything that makes a game unplayable......blah blah blah

If only the person flying under the stage had to actually have a destination! Then they could be cut off at the pass... but alas, the moment they fly under the stage they go into the nether.

 

[Exceladon City]

Yeah it's been proven time and time again that MK can be beaten, even by some lower tiered characters. But if the MK main feels that their chances of winning are endangered, tactics like scrooging and planking can make that win inevitably theirs. Planking can be dealt with if you feel the reward is worth the risk, of course only a few characters can do something and have a semi-favorable chance of not getting wrecked. Scrooging can only be dealt with by another MK.

I don't care if MK is banned or not but if scrooging becomes the new trend to secure a win, then I feel he should be banned if you can't solve that problem.

 

[adumbrodeus]

The sampling lets you figure out the values of where the standard deviations lie; however it's a fact that 3 SD out from the center is approximately 99% of all of the data. That 0.5% on both bad and good sides are what I'm looking at.

If there's a 1% chance of something happening, it's more likely to happen multiple times with 1,000,000 tries in an experiment than it is if it was tried 100 times. Same concept with MK. He simply has more representation because of everyone flocking to him so the chances of people being good and using MK are better.

Total Smasher count(example) 1,000

Probably of people being good in a community 2%(200 people in a national tournament)
Probability of people using MK 36%(approximately according to the charts people have been using)
Probability of someone being good and using MK: 0.72%
72 total good MK players having nothing to do with them playing MK. /5 for tournament amount = 14 good MKs going for the top spots

Probability of people being good in a community: 2%(for example, doesn't have to be 2, just a low number)
Probability of people using Snake: 16% (I believe, I don't feel like checking the chart.)
Probability of someone being good and using Snake: 0.32%
32 total good Snake players/5 for tournament numbers= 6 good Snake players going for the top spot.

For 'outliers' replace the 'good in a community value' with 0.5% or something significantly lower than 2%

ADHD and Ally shows there is no proof that MK makes people better players, so they're independent values.

I can make crude assumptions backed by senseless logic and throw around cherry picked numbers to support my point too. That's all this thread has been about.

Besides, I room with Seibrik and he's told me he'd rather go DDD vs Diddy than MK. He might even be shifting towards that Diddy could have a slight advantage over MK.

Get better.

I don't disagree that this thread has been dominated by fuzzy math, my point is we need to DEAL WITH IT, and figure out how to make the math not fuzzy anymore.


I've been doing this to pretty much everyone who proffered fuzzy math.

I'm confused, you suggest banning Scrooging without it being proven broken yet, but imply we shouldn't ban planking because it hasn't been proven broken yet?

I disagree, DanGR produced a thread establishing a number of "definately stalled out" characters large enough to warrant it's ban.


In general, it falls under the "immediately ban-worthy glitches" clause because it undeniably ends competition and infinite stalling over-centralizes by nature.



Planking does not make you infinitely invincible, you have a window, and people need to do what Dark.pch did and work with frame data to figure out your options and how you can reliably beat planking.


If we can't, then it's probably banworthy, if we can't ban it, then we ban MK.

 

[OverLade]

I'm not going to take a side, but I'm going to throw something at a couple posts.

ADHD and Ally shows there is no proof that MK makes people better players, so they're independent values.

I'm sorry but this is wrong, absolutely wrong. I play MK and Snake on a very high level and I can tell you that MK IS a skill enhancer to a measurable degree. You will be able to play more consistently at a high level with him (because he's simple, has no real weaknesses, and the amount of punishment he actually receives per read is relatively small). If this was true then other "top" Snake's and Diddy's would also be able to take out top MKs. The only logical explanation that Ally and ADHD are more skilled than the MK players they beat (though personally I think the Diddy vs MK matchup has a saturation point and becomes in Diddy's favor at the level ADHD plays it).

I'll never forget, one of the first ban threads, M2k came in and debated me on the MK-Snake MU, and he believed Snake's dtilt outranges MKs, and then his "if this guy beats me, my char loses the MU" rants... about just about every character that ever beat him.

What does this have to do with anything? Snakes Dtilt is slower, and has more cooldown. You can't statistically look at moves and say "this should work against this", because in the head of the match, a Snake player would have to react as fast as the MK player could think, and space his Dtilt perfectly, while predicting that the MK was going to Dtilt (and if the MK player did something else snake would get punished).

Imo MK is broken on paper, not broken in practice though, but tactics like planking and timing out are definitely broken.

The only reason I will support the ban is if it brings more people to tournaments. I remember back in January at my 2nd tournament that had 100%. My 3rd and 4th tournaments in April and October respectively only had 40, and were even more hyped. People are getting fed up and leaving, which sucks and makes the game less interesting.

 

[rvkevin]

I disagree, DanGR produced a thread establishing a number of "definately stalled out" characters large enough to warrant it's ban.


In general, it falls under the "immediately ban-worthy glitches" clause because it undeniably ends competition and infinite stalling over-centralizes by nature.

Running away from an opponent to reach a better position is not stalling. And there are other ways (better ways IMO) to limit it other than "you can't go underneath the stage."

 

[adumbrodeus]

What does this have to do with anything? Snakes Dtilt is slower, and has more cooldown. You can't statistically look at moves and say "this should work against this", because in the head of the match, a Snake player would have to react as fast as the MK player could think, and space his Dtilt perfectly, while predicting that the MK was going to Dtilt (and if the MK player did something else snake would get punished).

We talking about spacing and zoning games, but it wasn't so much about one beating the other as one establishing ground control.


Also, you realize that accounting for reaction time (8 frames at the top of the metagame, 10 is about average for gamers, 12 is population average) results in dealing with that issue, right?


As I always say, "if on paper doesn't match reality, get better players or get better paper".

Running away from an opponent to reach a better position is not stalling. And there are other ways (better ways IMO) to limit it other than "you can't go underneath the stage."

The problem is that you have the ability to stall infinitely with it with no punishment possible, and like IDC that necessitates it's ban.


How character dependent the tech is, that's up in the air, but against those that it works against, it needs to be banned for stalling.

 

[OverLade]

We talking about spacing and zoning games, but it wasn't so much about one beating the other as one establishing ground control.


Also, you realize that accounting for reaction time (8 frames at the top of the metagame, 10 is about average for gamers, 12 is population average) results in dealing with that issue, right?

Yes I realize I'm accounting for reaction speed and I dont know where you got that data from, but reaction speed is the reason why Ally can beat top MKs (I have play both Ally and M2K in MK dittos, as well as Snake vs MK and MK vs Snake). Ally has faster reactions than M2K and if you think otherwise you haven't played both of them consecutively.

And reaction speed is based on brain processing speed, which is something that you are born with, and can only help by experience and increasing your brains ability to recognize scenarios. You can get faster, but only as fast as your brain is able to process, which is different for different people.

As I always say, "if on paper doesn't match reality, get better players or get better paper".

That's a saying and is pretty much irrelevant to this conversation, because the "just get better" to beat MK arguement can't be applied to real life in the fullest. If every MK knew every matchup and everyone of every other character knew every match you would find then we would REALLY have MK problems. The "get better" arguement doesn't work because as far as I'm concerned, a lot of the MK's in the US aren't even good, but still place well in tournaments.

 

[Tommy_G]

I'm sorry but this is wrong, absolutely wrong. I play MK and Snake on a very high level and I can tell you that MK IS a skill enhancer to a measurable degree. You will be able to play more consistently at a high level with him (because he's simple, has no real weaknesses, and the amount of punishment he actually receives per read is relatively small).

You play MK on a very high level. You play Snake on a moderately high level. I've never seen you use Snake over MK in a serious tournament match.

Btw, all of that data and those numbers were a joke to mock all of the other numbers to show how they're all biased in one way shape or form.

Someone needs to make a thread on how this game is suppose to be played. The true mechanics of this game. Only then, when we have a good understanding of that, is when we can play around with banning characters.

(Not directed at you RedHalberd)
Get Better.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Yes I realize I'm accounting for reaction speed and I dont know where you got that data from, but reaction speed is the reason why Ally can beat top MKs (I have play both Ally and M2K in MK dittos, as well as Snake vs MK and MK vs Snake). Ally has faster reactions than M2K and if you think otherwise you haven't played both of them consecutively.

And reaction speed is based on brain processing speed, which is something that you are born with, and can only help by experience and increasing your brains ability to recognize scenarios. You can get faster, but only as fast as your brain is able to process, which is different for different people.

Then why are we debating this, a snake player will not be able to react to an MK dtilt because the hitbox comes out too quickly.

That's a saying and is pretty much irrelevant to this conversation, because the "just get better" to beat MK arguement can't be applied to real life in the fullest. If every MK knew every matchup and everyone of every other character knew every match you would find then we would REALLY have MK problems. The "get better" arguement doesn't work because as far as I'm concerned, a lot of the MK's in the US aren't even good, but still place well in tournaments.

You misunderstand, real-life results will not match on paper results for one of two reasons:

1. Your model is wrong (not accounting for reaction time is an easy example, but there are many other possibilities, but overall, fix your model).

2. Nobody is good enough to illustrate the truth of the theoretical model.

 

[OverLade]

You play MK on a very high level. You play Snake on a moderately high level. I've never seen you use Snake over MK in a serious tournament match.

Btw, all of that data and those numbers were a joke to mock all of the other numbers to show how they're all biased in one way shape or form.

(Not directed at you RedHalberd)
Get Better.

No, you've never seen me use Snake in a serious tournament match, and I haven't used him often, but the only difference between my Snake and my MK is the difference in how good the character is. I'm basing my judgement on the raw understanding of the nature of the characters, both of which I understand fluently. People say Snake and MK are equally good but Snake just has counters. Snake has counters because defensively he takes more damage, which is why MK is so good. You have to work for every bit of reward vs. MK, which is why he's an easy go to character, and is "better" than Diddy/Snake/Falco.

I don't think MK is bannable, but I think people are wrong when they deny that he's a skill enhancer, or that "just getting better" is the solution. If your reaction speed is below a certain threshold then you will never be able to beat most good MKs. I could go into reasons why he should be broken (but human ability won't reach that potential so it doesn't really).

 

[OverLade]

Then why are we debating this, a snake player will not be able to react to an MK dtilt because the hitbox comes out too quickly.

Exactly, so I who was it that brought up Snake beating MK's Dtilt as an example? If it wasn't you then we'll drop this.

You misunderstand, real-life results will not match on paper results for one of two reasons:

1. Your model is wrong (not accounting for reaction time is an easy example, but there are many other possibilities, but overall, fix your model).

2. Nobody is good enough to illustrate the truth of the theoretical model.

How is my model wrong?

Reaction time is an actual applicable part of this game, vs. on paper.

The on paper version is (Snakes Dtilt beats MKs). The "in game version" (Snake's Dtilt is too slow and doesn't come out fast enough to realistically beat a MK's dtilt during a match".

I think we're agreeing, because I just said number 2.

 

[rvkevin]

2. Nobody is good enough to illustrate the truth of the theoretical model.

Should be more like the assumptions of the model have not been met, such as "players are expected to do anything in the rule set in order to win." This is not true for several reasons. We have players that use characters in order to be unique or other personal reasons. We have certain tactics that are soft banned, and some people feel the need to play "honorably" (Judge's blog comes to mind).

 

[Tommy_G]

No, you've never seen me use Snake in a serious tournament match, and I haven't used him often, but the only difference between my Snake and my MK is the difference in how good the character is. I'm basing my judgement on the raw understanding of the nature of the characters, both of which I understand fluently. People say Snake and MK are equally good but Snake just has counters. Snake has counters because defensively he takes more damage, which is why MK is so good. You have to work for every bit of reward vs. MK, which is why he's an easy go to character, and is "better" than Diddy/Snake/Falco.

I don't think MK is bannable, but I think people are wrong when they deny that he's a skill enhancer, or that "just getting better" is the solution. If your reaction speed is below a certain threshold then you will never be able to beat most good MKs. I could go into reasons why he should be broken (but human ability won't reach that potential so it doesn't really).

The reason why your MK is better than your Snake is because "...and I haven't used him often..."

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

This thread now sucks as it has devolved into name-calling and fallacious bull**** (mostly thanks to anti-ban). Can't it just be locked?

 

[adumbrodeus]

Exactly, so I who was it that brought up Snake beating MK's Dtilt as an example? If it wasn't you then we'll drop this.

That was M2k, and it was outranging, I said that was BS.

We didn't even discuss "beating" outright.

How is my model wrong?

"Your" referred to the hypothetical person that made a mistake in their model, in other words a stand-in for everyone who makes errors in their model of how to judge MUs, myself included.

Reaction time is an actual applicable part of this game, vs. on paper.

Everything is actual applicable stuff, but applicable stuff leads to theoretical constructs. For example, due to reaction time a move that would hit on frame 4 cannot be beaten on reaction if you're at the area that it hits on frame 4 and must be "read" (by this I mean by accident or design you use an option that beats it), in order to be directly beaten.


I cannot dolphin slash out of (most) shieldgrabs on reaction if I misspace because they simply come out too fast and it's impossible for me to react to them, that is "on paper". If I could however, I could safely assume that marth should never get shieldgrabbed at mid to high percents.

The on paper version is (Snakes Dtilt beats MKs). The "in game version" (Snake's Dtilt is too slow and doesn't come out fast enough to realistically beat a MK's dtilt during a match".

I think we're agreeing, because I just said number 2.

Actually on paper, MK's dtilt is longer ranged and beats snake's dtilt in general.

 

[RDK]

I've merely attempted to prove misconceptions to be just that. I've debunked all of anti-ban's previous arguments and anyone who says "Metaknight isn't dominant" hasn't look at the numbers. Anyone who thinks he has a counter or even a 50/50 matchup is incorrect. All the data I have shows things I've predicted and believed to be true.

MK / MK is 50-50.

Jus sayin.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Should be more like the assumptions of the model have not been met, such as "players are expected to do anything in the rule set in order to win." This is not true for several reasons. We have players that use characters in order to be unique or other personal reasons. We have certain tactics that are soft banned, and some people feel the need to play "honorably" (Judge's blog comes to mind).

Actually this is often true, that deserves an addition, though I still think that not "playing to win" deserves a "the players need to get better", because whatever else you call it, not being willing to use every legal tactic to win makes you a weaker player.

This thread now sucks as it has devolved into name-calling and fallacious bull**** (mostly thanks to anti-ban). Can't it just be locked?

There has been some, but the bulk of discussion has been rather legit I think, if circular.

MK / MK is 50-50.

Jus sayin.

Port priority! lol


Ok, would matter a lot more for snake dittos, but mirror matches aren't perfect 50-50s either.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

This thread now sucks as it has devolved into name-calling and fallacious bull**** (mostly thanks to anti-ban). Can't it just be locked?

ITT: Irony

 

[MarKO X]

This thread now sucks as it has devolved into name-calling and fallacious bull**** (mostly thanks to anti-ban). Can't it just be locked?

bias is bias.
pro-ban has been spitting out some false **** as well.
it's been coming from both sides.

but i agree. this should get locked.
it's gone up in this b***h.

 

[Overswarm]

You guys could listen to RDK's podcast.

 

[adumbrodeus]

You guys could listen to RDK's podcast.

Which will be here when it's available, he hasn't had a chance to upload it yet, but should be available later today.

 

[hotgarbage]

People say Snake and MK are equally good but Snake just has counters. Snake has counters because defensively he takes more damage, which is why MK is so good. You have to work for every bit of reward vs. MK, which is why he's an easy go to character, and is "better" than Diddy/Snake/Falco.

Verrrrry true. If I've got a 60:40 matchup against Snake I still have a chance by capitalizing on his weaknesses. Get a few good reads and juggle for good damage/keep him in a bad position. Get him off the edge and gimp/do big damage. Get a sizable % lead and don't leave your advantageous position. If I have a 60:40 against MK I can...... errrrrrr ummmmm...... hope he SD's? I'll have no choice but to outplay him every step of the way. As you said, MK's defense is truly one of his greatest (and most irritating) strengths.

 

[orange/xd]

how about we ban snake because he's my worst MU

 

[Eddie G]

how about we ban snake because he's my worst MU

No, because Peach can beat him. ;D

 

[Tien2500]

Ok, would matter a lot more for snake dittos, but mirror matches aren't perfect 50-50s either.

What? Wouldn't mirror matches (except for Snake) have to be 50:50 by definition?

 

[adumbrodeus]

What? Wouldn't mirror matches (except for Snake) have to be 50:50 by definition?

Port priority will always give one character an advantage, it's just a matter of how much. Snake is a very obvious example, and while it's debatable which one is the most useful for most, it cannot be a perfect 50-50 ever. What exactly they are depends on the character and how strictly you define 50-50 but it's not perfect.



Another good example is melee marth, don't have grab priority? Sucks to be you!

 

[HeroMystic]

On paper yes.

For instance, DDD vs DDD is 50:50 by definition, but since DDD has an infinite on himself, it's technically 90:10 or 100:0 for whoever infinites who first.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[napZzz]

This thread now sucks as it has devolved into name-calling and fallacious bull**** (mostly thanks to anti-ban). Can't it just be locked?

if this is locked people will just start making mk ban threads again lol

 

[Tommy_G]

Maybe we can just get it renamed to the "Wanna ***** about MK even though he'll never get banned? Post here" thread.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

On paper yes.

For instance, DDD vs DDD is 50:50 by definition, but since DDD has an infinite on himself, it's technically 90:10 or 100:0 for whoever infinites who first.

Hope that makes sense.

And since both DDDs have equal opportunity to infinite each other, it's 50:50...

 

[MarKO X]

Maybe we can just get it renamed to the "Wanna ***** about MK even though he'll never get banned? Post here" thread.

it's good for people to vent.

 

[Tommy_G]

it's good for people to vent.

it is. XD I'd rather have this than a bunch of MK needs to be banned threads.
Unless people make up numbers to make people believe a threat is worse than it really is to the point where they scare everyone to a ban.
Vent all they want, they should still know that MK won't get banned. ;-)

 

[adumbrodeus]

And since both DDDs have equal opportunity to infinite each other, it's 50:50...

Except that the DDD on controller port one has grab priority...

 

[hotgarbage]

On paper yes.

For instance, DDD vs DDD is 50:50 by definition, but since DDD has an infinite on himself, it's technically 90:10 or 100:0 for whoever infinites who first.

Hope that makes sense.

Not really . Matchup ratios are decided by comparing the characters before the match starts. Otherwise it would just be silly. "MK has Snake off the stage at low%! The matchup is now 90:10!!!!!!" or "Diddy Kong is behind a nanner and shooting peanuts! 80:20 LOL". In Dedede's case both characters have the same abilities... among those the ability to infinite the other Dedede. So it's still 50:50.... just a potentially very silly 50:50 .

EDIT: what Col. Stauffenberg said

 

[Zankoku]

Except that the DDD on controller port one has grab priority...

And since both players have roughly equal chance of getting controller port 1, it's averaged to 50:50.